What is craving?

Namada

Is craving suffering?

Can we end craving or tanha..

Buddha divided Tanha up like this:

craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

Seems to be an impossible task to end our thirst for life

upekka

first we must know exactly what is craving

craving for sensual pleasure is craving to see, hear, taste, smell and feel
craving for becoming is craving to get form jhana (mental absorption)
craving for non-becoming means craving to gain formless jhana (higher mental absorption)

if we do not have the experience of form jhana and formless jhana we don't have to worry about those two

instead we have to worry about 'how to get rid of craving for sensual pleasure'

even that also can not done by worrying, instead we have to determined to get rid of 'craving for sensual pleasure'

pegembara

Craving is how we get our tails twisted. To be freed from craving isn't human. It is to be a Buddha.

How many people do you know who are unaffected by praise or blame? That isn’t human, we say. Human means that you have to be a little monkey, so everybody can twist your tail, and you do whatever you ought to be doing. But is that human? If you find me charming, it means that right now you’re in a good mood, nothing more. – Anthony de Mello

Tiddlywinds

@Namada said:
Is craving suffering?

Dukkha is the gap between where you are and where you'd like to be. If you're walking along the street and see something in a shop and you say - I want it - that's dukkha.

Akasha

Is craving suffering?

Yes.

Can we end craving or tanha..

Yes through the Eight Fold Path.

Seems to be an impossible task to end our thirst for life.

The way i go about getting rid of craving is by means of substitution.

For example:

I use to do cocaine now i drink wine.

I use to drink wine now i drink soda.

I use to drink soda now i drink water.

In my own experience the most effective method of getting rid of an addiction or craving is being addicted to something else.The question is which is the lesser of two evils.

In other word you won't let go of five sense pleasures,which for most people is the only happiness they know, until you see a greater pleasure (meditative bliss,spiritual practice) and you won't let go of meditative bliss (non-sensual pleasure) until you see an even more greater pleasure,Nibannic bliss.Which is the highest bliss.

upekka

@Akasha said:
Is craving suffering?

Yes.

Can we end craving or tanha..

Yes through the Eight Fold Path.

Seems to be an impossible task to end our thirst for life.

The way i go about getting rid of craving is by means of substitution.

For example:

I use to do cocaine now i drink wine.

I use to drink wine now i drink soda.

I use to drink soda now i drink water.

In my own experience the most effective method of getting rid of an addiction or craving is being addicted to something else.The question is which is the lesser of two evils.

In other word you won't let go of five sense pleasures,which for most people is the only happiness they know, until you see a greater pleasure (meditative bliss,spiritual practice) and you won't let go of meditative bliss (non-sensual pleasure) until you see an even more greater pleasure,Nibannic bliss.Which is the highest bliss.

i'm now addict meditation

aha, what a feeling!

Jeroen

So basically the whole journey is one towards addiction to nirvanic bliss? Interesting.

federica

No, let's not start adding our own definitions. There are different levels and degrees of 'craving'.

Addiction is extreme.
A desire to do/have something, less so.

Our mission - should we decide to accept it - is to recognise the craving, desire or addiction for what they are: An attachment.
It is the attachment that needs scrutinising, examining exploring and addressing, and once we have understood its nature, we can then better deal with it.

lobster

@Kerome said:
So basically the whole journey is one towards addiction to nirvanic bliss? Interesting.

Not quite.
Nirvana is not sensual bliss. It is empty of qualities such as bliss, dukkha, ignorance, wisdom, words etc
... well that is my experience, not that experience is anything but passing wind ...

Akasha

@lobster said:

@Kerome said:
So basically the whole journey is one towards addiction to nirvanic bliss? Interesting.

Not quite.
Nirvana is not bliss. It is empty of qualities such as bliss, dukkha, ignorance, wisdom, words etc
... well that is my experience, not that experience is anything but passing wind ...

I often see suttas that use the word "bliss" in relation to Nibbanna.It's not the same bliss as sensual pleasure bliss I gather. I don't think Nibbanna is emptiness,i think that Nibbanna is empty of greed,hate and delusion as you mentioned.

Health is the most precious gain and contentment the greatest wealth. A trustworthy person is the best kinsman, Nibbana the highest bliss.-Sukhavagga: Happiness -Dhammapada

"http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.15.budd.html

The unfashioned, the end,
the effluent-less*, the true, the beyond,
the subtle, the very-hard-to-see,
the ageless, permanence, the undecaying,
the surface-less, non-objectification,
peace, the deathless,
the exquisite, bliss, solace,
the exhaustion of craving,
the wonderful, the marvelous,
the secure, security,
nibbāna,
the unafflicted, the passionless, the pure,
release, non-attachment,
the island, shelter, harbor, refuge,
the ultimate.

— SN 42.1-44

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/likefire/2-0.html

Hunger is the worst disease, conditioned things the worst suffering. Knowing this as it really is, the wise realize Nibbana, the highest bliss. -Sukhavagga: Happiness

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.15.budd.html

DairyLama

@upekka said:
craving for becoming is craving to get form jhana (mental absorption)
craving for non-becoming means craving to gain formless jhana (higher mental absorption)

I'm not familiar with that, where is it in the suttas?

In MN9 craving is six-fold:
"There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangibles, craving for mind-objects."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html

This suggests that the craving for becoming is the craving for continued existence or experience.

federica

I think as there is no dark, merely an absence of light, there is no suffering, merely an absence of bliss. I think bliss is the Thoughtless, 'emotionless' joy experienced when we've put everything down.
('emotionless' meaning we attach no euphoria to the joy, we merely reside in joy and manifest it.)

namarupa

I think tanha is more of a self-driven, ignorant thirst than a natural desire for freedom from suffering. Without thinking it through, sometimes a wrong need is fulfilled and it creates an endless circle of needs and desires for example.

upekka

@SpinyNorman said:

@upekka said:
craving for becoming is craving to get form jhana (mental absorption)
craving for non-becoming means craving to gain formless jhana (higher mental absorption)

I'm not familiar with that, where is it in the suttas?

In MN9 craving is six-fold:
"There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangibles, craving for mind-objects."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html

This suggests that the craving for becoming is the craving for continued existence or experience.

you are correct, this is theory

but in practice you see:
craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangibles are craving for sensual pleasure

craving for mind-objects is craving for four jhana/ craving for existence without sensual pleasure/ craving for forms

craving for four imperturbable is craving for non-existence/ craving for get rid of forms/ craving for bliss/ craving for feeling

(i hope i could pass to you what i want to say, at least i am trying)

Shoshin

@Namada said:
Is craving suffering?

Can we end craving or tanha..

Buddha divided Tanha up like this:

craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

Seems to be an impossible task to end our thirst for life

Craving "is" Dukkha...And ones desire for an answer....

Is craving suffering?

....and the feeling of unsatisfactoriness

Seems to be an impossible task to end our thirst for life

....are part & parcel of this cyclic existence brought on by "craving"...

Who wants to know ?

If one can answer this question, it will provide satisfactory answers for all other questions...

including ...

Is craving suffering?

upekka

@Shoshin said:

Who wants to know ?

If one can answer this question, it will provide satisfactory answers for all other questions...

including ...

Is craving suffering?

nun

Shoshin

@upekka said:

@Shoshin said:

Who wants to know ?

If one can answer this question, it will provide satisfactory answers for all other questions...

including ...

Is craving suffering?

nun

So are you a "nun" that wants to know @upekka ?

upekka

@Shoshin said:

@upekka said:

@Shoshin said:

Who wants to know ?

If one can answer this question, it will provide satisfactory answers for all other questions...

including ...

Is craving suffering?

nun

So are you a "nun" that whats to know @upekka ?

none

Shoshin

So none of the above

pegembara

Hunger is the worst disease, conditioned things the worst suffering. Knowing this as it really is, the wise realize Nibbana, the highest bliss. -Sukhavagga: Happiness

But the highest "bliss" isn't really blissful as we ordinarily understand it. Rather more like peace or freedom from being enslaved by feeling.

"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html

Carpenter Fivetools said: "Not three kinds of feelings, reverend Udayi, were taught by the Blessed One. It is two kinds of feelings that were stated by the Blessed One: pleasant and painful feelings. The neutral feeling was said by the Blessed One to belong to peaceful and sublime happiness."

"If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, by completely surmounting the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a monk enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime.

'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.nypo.html

pegembara

@Shoshin said:

Craving "is" Dukkha...And ones desire for an answer....

Is craving suffering?

....and the feeling of unsatisfactoriness

Seems to be an impossible task to end our thirst for life

....are part & parcel of this cyclic existence brought on by "craving"...

Who wants to know ?

If one can answer this question, it will provide satisfactory answers for all other questions...

We become a who or what whenever we take one or more of the 5 aggregates as me, mine or myself by claiming ownership.

"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html

pegembara

@SpinyNorman said:

In MN9 craving is six-fold:
"There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangibles, craving for mind-objects."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html

This suggests that the craving for becoming is the craving for continued existence or experience.

What is existence without experience (Sense-Sphere, Form and Formless realms)?

http://www.beyondthenet.net/medit/contemplation_of_the_mind_link12.htm

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

DairyLama

@pegembara said:

@SpinyNorman said:

In MN9 craving is six-fold:
"There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangibles, craving for mind-objects."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html

This suggests that the craving for becoming is the craving for continued existence or experience.

What is existence without experience (Sense-Sphere, Form and Formless realms)?

Yes, and it points to a craving for continuing experience. This level of craving seems similar to "survival instinct".

Akasha

@pegembara said:

Hunger is the worst disease, conditioned things the worst suffering. Knowing this as it really is, the wise realize Nibbana, the highest bliss. -Sukhavagga: Happiness

But the highest "bliss" isn't really blissful as we ordinarily understand it. Rather more like peace or freedom from being enslaved by feeling.

Yes i agree.It's not the same bliss as we associate with feelings.

"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html

'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.nypo.html

Yes there must be another kind of happiness we've never experienced since we're made up of the 5 aggregates,always perceiving and feeling.

Buddhadragon

@Namada said:
Is craving suffering?
Can we end craving or tanha..
Buddha divided Tanha up like this:
craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
Seems to be an impossible task to end our thirst for life

The Second Noble Truth teaches that dukkha is conditioned through craving.
The Third Noble Truth teaches that cessation is possible.
The Fourth Noble Truth is the path to deliverance from dukkha, that is, the Noble Eightfold Path.

Nirvana is, according to Nyanatiloka Thero, "the complete cessation of all volitional impulses of craving manifested by greed, aversion, delusion, and all forms of clinging to life."
Rather than "bliss," through Nirvana one attains a state of equanimity and detachment, beyond bliss or unhappiness.

pegembara

@Akasha said:

@pegembara said:

Hunger is the worst disease, conditioned things the worst suffering. Knowing this as it really is, the wise realize Nibbana, the highest bliss. -Sukhavagga: Happiness

But the highest "bliss" isn't really blissful as we ordinarily understand it. Rather more like peace or freedom from being enslaved by feeling.

Yes i agree.It's not the same bliss as we associate with feelings.

"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html

'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.nypo.html

Yes there must be another kind of happiness we've never experienced since we're made up of the 5 aggregates,always perceiving and feeling.

Maybe we will never experience it since what it is is precisely the absence of experience that is the "happiness" - sort of like a mini death!

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

As regards the aggregates that is assumed to be ours.

The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: This, monks, is called the burden.

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name: This is called the carrier of the burden.

"And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This is called the taking up of the burden.

"And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless dispassion-cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This is called the casting off of the burden."

— SN 22.22

DairyLama

@pegembara said:>
Carpenter Fivetools said: "Not three kinds of feelings, reverend Udayi, were taught by the Blessed One. It is two kinds of feelings that were stated by the Blessed One: pleasant and painful feelings. The neutral feeling was said by the Blessed One to belong to peaceful and sublime happiness."

"If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, by completely surmounting the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a monk enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime.

'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.nypo.html

Cessation of perception and feeling is a meditative state though, isn't it? According to the Arrow Sutta there is still pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling, it is the associated mental feelings which cease. And I don't see how anyone could function without perception, you wouldn't even be able to cross a road without recognising "car", "bus" etc.

pegembara

@SpinyNorman said:

Cessation of perception and feeling is a meditative state though, isn't it? According to the Arrow Sutta there is still pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling, it is the associated mental feelings which cease. And I don't see how anyone could function without perception, you wouldn't even be able to cross a road without recognising "car", "bus" etc.

Yes - coming after the most refined states. Without perception and feeling, one is dead to the world.

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41/sn41.006.than.html