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"Whenever possible, be kind. It is ALWAYS possible."
@techie but there is a good chance the bully teacher simply realized he couldn't bully THAT class but still bullied others. Even if you cut the behavior they still have to learn the root of that behavior in order to truly understand and stop it.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is credited as being a huge force in the civil racism war in the US. He fought with words. It did quite well for him and the whole country. It has nothing to do with being sweet all the time. The Natives in North Dakota are fighting their fight with peaceful protests. It is not done, but their ways have called thousands of people to aid them. It is with respect for themselves and their traditions and the planet that they fight this fight. They most certainly are not being "nice" but they are not being harmful, either. One can be fierce in their compassion.
A bullied person might fight back and stop the bullying but the bully just moves on to someone else. Because the reasons he bullies have not been dealt with. I've dealt with bullies with my children before. I most certainly did not just talk nicely to my kids and do nothing else. I gave them actual tools to regain their control over themselves and I dealt as needed with the actions of the bully, including pressing charges and having one arrested. But even that was not out of a lack of compassion. He needed to be stopped and he needed a stronger message. He was heading down a road that would bring more harm to him, his family, and others who crossed his path. My primary goal was for him to understand what he did was wrong. But also to protect him and his family from further actions on his part but hoping a harsher lesson would help. He never touched my son or said a word to us again. But he put another boy in the hospital a couple of years later. No matter what we do, we cannot change anyone else. I might have stopped him bullying my son, but his reasoning for what he does has never been dealt with, so his poor behavior continues against other people.
Compassion is about far more than being nice and sweet. But one can hand down consequences without causing harm even if the receiver doesn't see it. Just because that is how you see it doesn't mean that is how it is. Compassion is being able to see what is going on and knowing how to act appropriately without harming someone else. That doesn't always mean being nice.
Look at jail and justice systems. They deal very harshly with people. And it does nothing to stop them from committing crimes. Because the reasons for why they do so have not been addressed. When we deal with people as they are, that includes (IMO) understanding that they are not their actions and there is far more to their actions than we can know.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2016
Ok, let me try another way. Instead of my advising @techie that his concept of compassion is utterly off-base, way out in left field, so far out it won't even echo, let me approach it via the side door:
@techie said: He threw the stone to frighten the bully, not hurt him. Believe it or not, bullies fear confrontation.
No, they don't fear Confrontation. They fear exposure. A bully is invariably aggressive, and will not react well to confrontation.
Besides, an adult bully once entrenched in their behaviour, is not stopped by such aggressive retaliation, they're only temporarily halted. A Bully doesn't respect violent retaliation, or learn by it. A Bully is better chastened by someone standing up to them, sure, but someone who can stand up to them through dignity and direct eye-to-eye challenge. Remember primarily why a bully is a bully. Because they themselves have almost invariably been bullied in the past. A violent, aggressive action therefore, is only likely to deepen their hostility, resentment and attitude. It will do little or nothing to prevent their behaviour from continuing, or worsening.
Your friend might have thought he taught the bully a lesson. He probably did. But not necessarily in a good way.
Expose a bully to the world as a bully, and that is far more likely to have a curative and preventative effect.
Believe it or not, your friend was not the only one to ever meet a bully.
They see compassion as weakness and take advantage of you.
No they don't. They try to belittle you and ridicule you, but for the most part, being un-used to kindness, Compassion and a rigorous and outspoken person, who does not fear them, they pretty much retreat and cover their confusion with bravado.
I've seen it happen. I've done it more than once, to a bully, myself. I even made very good friends with a former bully of mine.
As I feared earlier, people on a Buddhist forum are going to be judgmental and refuse to see both sides.
There is only one opposite side to violence and that is peace. The Buddha's own words were
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but by Love alone is it conquered. This is the eternal Law."
Everyone here can see both sides. One is wretched, the other Noble. A Noble, Compassionate non-violent approach will win every time. But that doesn't mean it is sugar-coated, lacy-frilled candy-floss pink, fluffy, gentle compassion. Compassion can be a solid brick wall and a metaphorical kick in the pants with a size 11 Doc Marten boot. It can.
You may argue that Buddhist compassion doesn't mean standing idly by and doing nothing, but let's face it ...
So if we would argue that "Buddhist compassion doesn't mean standing idly by and doing nothing" what do you suppose we would instead say? because you seem to be under the decided misconception that that is precisely what we would say....
... you and I both know that's what it translates to eventually.
Really? You honestly believe 'you and I both know'...? Speak for yourself. I don't know that at all.
In fact, I consider the opposite to be true. How rude of you to presume you know what I think. your presumptuousness and ignorance of what Compassion is, and what we know what it means, is highly insulting.
Buddhist compassion is nothing but sweet advice given to victims to tolerate bullying, or the usual pleasant-sounding platitudes (hate is quelled by love alone etc. etc.). Zero action, zero practicality. All talk.
You're so ignorant, and so utterly barking up the wrong tree, and so wide off the mark as to be bordering on trolling.
Sorry to be so blunt, but someone has to say it.
I really don't mind people being blunt. As long as they're not talking out of their behind.
You, I'm afraid, fit the bill. You're not blunt, you're way out of line.
I've read some stupid, blithely ignorant and utterly blinkered opinions of Buddhism in the past but that takes the biscuit.
@Cinorjer said: @techie that is a terrible example. Throwing a rock at a bully in a position of power does NOT stop them from being a bully. There is a whole lot being left out of that story. So what, let's hurt or kill people we have a grudge against, and that's how we make the world a better place? As pointed out, Buddhist compassion doesn't mean standing by doing nothing when we see a wrong.
He threw the stone to frighten the bully, not hurt him. Believe it or not, bullies fear confrontation. They see compassion as weakness and take advantage of you. As I feared earlier, people on a Buddhist forum are going to be judgmental and refuse to see both sides. You may argue that Buddhist compassion doesn't mean standing idly by and doing nothing, but let's face it ... you and I both know that's what it translates to eventually. Buddhist compassion is nothing but sweet advice given to victims to tolerate bullying, or the usual pleasant-sounding platitudes (hate is quelled by love alone etc. etc.). Zero action, zero practicality. All talk.
Sorry to be so blunt, but someone has to say it.
I'm not being judgmental; I'm disagreeing with you. You are wrong. Your way of dealing with people is not only wrong, it's dangerous. There is not a bit of difference between the justification of your example claiming the right to scare a bully into behaving (which won't work anyway) and someone claiming the right to attack a group of people or an entire nation because you don't like the way they act.
In spite of what you say, bullies in positions of power do not quit because someone threatens them or attacks them. You're playing their game, and they're better at it than you ever will be. The entire world uses your method now. How's that working out?
Buddhist compassion is to fix the situation, not punish the person. What exactly did your friend accomplish? If the people who ran the school were willing to allow one teacher to mistreat students, then another will eventually take his place. Is your friend going to be there with a rock every time? And what happens when the next teacher he throws a rock at picks it up and throws it back?
I am not necessarily disagreeing with anything you say. Just that some of us are in no position to 'understand' the bully or find out causes of bullying. We have too much on our plate already, so our goal is to merely survive and defend ourselves against bullies. Delving into the root cause, finding out if the bully was bullied etc. is best left to psychiatrists or others who are on a noble crusade to 'save' the bullies with their godly compassion. The rest of us mortals have our personal traumas to deal with.
@techie It is not always up to us to figure them out. Some people are able to help and some (most) are not. But we can understand that there is an underlying issue and base compassion on that. Most bullies were bullied, often by their families. They are often crying out for help by acting how they do and if we are not qualified to help then we should understand it does not help to hurt them. It often makes things worse and cements their idea that they are treated poorly and they are justified in dishing it back however they can. Those who dish out suffering to others, suffer greatly themselves because they are that far removed from their true nature. For that alone they deserve compassion, even if we must give consequences for their behavior and protect others from them.
Even small children can be taught this. We should stand up for ourselves, but we should not hurt back unless it is a true act of self defense. And as soon as we can, we get help from someone who is in the appropriate place to act. And then we remember that sometimes people behave badly because they don't have the things we have and it makes life hard for them. So we have compassion for their difficulties even while we might keep our distance. My son has turned 2 kids into friends who were previously not nice to him. Just by being nice to them. It turned out they were shy kids with no friends who were acting out because of their social discomfort. He just started being nice to them a little at a time. Now they are friends. And their overall behavior is much better.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2016
We can never get into the head of another person. The worst idea is to throw a stone at it...#
The only actions we can have any solid influence over, be they mental, physical or verbal, are our own.
And how we respond - constructively, skilfully, COMPASSIONATELY - is the key to how things will go.
Things will go in the way we radiate a reaction. And a reaction is off-course.
The saying "Learn how to respond, not to react" would be a fitting one for your friend to hear.
We don't have the long-term result of your friend's reactions.
But I bet it didn't work as he hoped it would.
Due to the relative nature of things...What's the right approach for one, may be the wrong approach for another....
Plus Double standards can have a 'habit' of influencing ones judgement, especially when it comes to exercising moral judgement ....
Do as I say (accept what I say...I'm just being cruel to be kind) ,but not as I do (but don't you dare use a similar tone when talking to me "[if I'm in the wrong]" ...I won't stand for it)
bullies in positions of power do not quit because someone threatens them or attacks them.
In many instances @Cinorjer 'bullies' are in denial of their bullying nature...They don't know any different and have been conditioned to react in a certain way... "their own way" and to try and point out the error of their way (either using a carrot or a stick...it matters not which one you use) one steps into the bully in the position of power's firing line....a glutton for punishment perhaps....
However, they do say that Change comes from within and one can only hope that enough wholesome seeds of change are planted, (by the gluttons for punishment ) so at least one might stand a chance of germination...I guess this 'change' is what the Buddhist would call a "miracle"....
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Seeds grow best from dark filth and dirt. Seeds need nurturing and watering to survive, and they need to struggle upwards to reach the light. Not every seed makes it. But some grow into sequoias....
The golden rule is a tricky one. It's easy for us to assume everyone else wants to be treated the way we do. It's better than nothing if we aren't sure which way to go but people are just so different. A tough love approach works for some while it alienates others. Most of us would agree we wouldn't want someone to be cruel to us and therefore we shouldn't treat someone else that way. But we already know better in those circumstances anyhow. In more nuanced situations, the golden rule can become harmful in some ways, such between parents and children. Early on I consistently tried to give my kids the things (advice wise) I didn't get. And often my kids needed something vastly different from me. I had to listen to what they needed and step back myself rather than assume what I would have wished for at their ages should also apply to them.
Early on I consistently tried to give my kids the things (advice wise) I didn't get. And often my kids needed something vastly different from me.I had to listen to what they needed and step back myself rather than assume what I would have wished for at their ages should also apply to them.
@karasti I agree and as we work our way through the obstacles of parenthood, we come to learn that the old saying "Children should be see and "not" heard!" should be "Children should be see and heard!" because we can learn a lot from each others ...and I've learnt hell of a lot from my four children of which I'm must grateful...
and our listening skills should be adjusted for the Different strokes for the difference in young folks
and when it comes to the "Golden Rule"
Go with the flow of the newfound experiential understanding
I am not necessarily disagreeing with anything you say. Just that some of us are in no position to 'understand' the bully or find out causes of bullying. We have too much on our plate already, so our goal is to merely survive and defend ourselves against bullies. Delving into the root cause, finding out if the bully was bullied etc. is best left to psychiatrists or others who are on a noble crusade to 'save' the bullies with their godly compassion. The rest of us mortals have our personal traumas to deal with.
Comments
@techie but there is a good chance the bully teacher simply realized he couldn't bully THAT class but still bullied others. Even if you cut the behavior they still have to learn the root of that behavior in order to truly understand and stop it.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is credited as being a huge force in the civil racism war in the US. He fought with words. It did quite well for him and the whole country. It has nothing to do with being sweet all the time. The Natives in North Dakota are fighting their fight with peaceful protests. It is not done, but their ways have called thousands of people to aid them. It is with respect for themselves and their traditions and the planet that they fight this fight. They most certainly are not being "nice" but they are not being harmful, either. One can be fierce in their compassion.
A bullied person might fight back and stop the bullying but the bully just moves on to someone else. Because the reasons he bullies have not been dealt with. I've dealt with bullies with my children before. I most certainly did not just talk nicely to my kids and do nothing else. I gave them actual tools to regain their control over themselves and I dealt as needed with the actions of the bully, including pressing charges and having one arrested. But even that was not out of a lack of compassion. He needed to be stopped and he needed a stronger message. He was heading down a road that would bring more harm to him, his family, and others who crossed his path. My primary goal was for him to understand what he did was wrong. But also to protect him and his family from further actions on his part but hoping a harsher lesson would help. He never touched my son or said a word to us again. But he put another boy in the hospital a couple of years later. No matter what we do, we cannot change anyone else. I might have stopped him bullying my son, but his reasoning for what he does has never been dealt with, so his poor behavior continues against other people.
Compassion is about far more than being nice and sweet. But one can hand down consequences without causing harm even if the receiver doesn't see it. Just because that is how you see it doesn't mean that is how it is. Compassion is being able to see what is going on and knowing how to act appropriately without harming someone else. That doesn't always mean being nice.
Look at jail and justice systems. They deal very harshly with people. And it does nothing to stop them from committing crimes. Because the reasons for why they do so have not been addressed. When we deal with people as they are, that includes (IMO) understanding that they are not their actions and there is far more to their actions than we can know.
Ok, let me try another way. Instead of my advising @techie that his concept of compassion is utterly off-base, way out in left field, so far out it won't even echo, let me approach it via the side door:
No, they don't fear Confrontation. They fear exposure. A bully is invariably aggressive, and will not react well to confrontation.
Besides, an adult bully once entrenched in their behaviour, is not stopped by such aggressive retaliation, they're only temporarily halted. A Bully doesn't respect violent retaliation, or learn by it. A Bully is better chastened by someone standing up to them, sure, but someone who can stand up to them through dignity and direct eye-to-eye challenge. Remember primarily why a bully is a bully. Because they themselves have almost invariably been bullied in the past. A violent, aggressive action therefore, is only likely to deepen their hostility, resentment and attitude. It will do little or nothing to prevent their behaviour from continuing, or worsening.
Your friend might have thought he taught the bully a lesson. He probably did. But not necessarily in a good way.
Expose a bully to the world as a bully, and that is far more likely to have a curative and preventative effect.
Believe it or not, your friend was not the only one to ever meet a bully.
No they don't. They try to belittle you and ridicule you, but for the most part, being un-used to kindness, Compassion and a rigorous and outspoken person, who does not fear them, they pretty much retreat and cover their confusion with bravado.
I've seen it happen. I've done it more than once, to a bully, myself. I even made very good friends with a former bully of mine.
There is only one opposite side to violence and that is peace. The Buddha's own words were
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but by Love alone is it conquered. This is the eternal Law."
Everyone here can see both sides. One is wretched, the other Noble. A Noble, Compassionate non-violent approach will win every time. But that doesn't mean it is sugar-coated, lacy-frilled candy-floss pink, fluffy, gentle compassion. Compassion can be a solid brick wall and a metaphorical kick in the pants with a size 11 Doc Marten boot. It can.
You may argue that Buddhist compassion doesn't mean standing idly by and doing nothing, but let's face it ...
So if we would argue that "Buddhist compassion doesn't mean standing idly by and doing nothing" what do you suppose we would instead say? because you seem to be under the decided misconception that that is precisely what we would say....
Really? You honestly believe 'you and I both know'...? Speak for yourself. I don't know that at all.
In fact, I consider the opposite to be true. How rude of you to presume you know what I think. your presumptuousness and ignorance of what Compassion is, and what we know what it means, is highly insulting.
You're so ignorant, and so utterly barking up the wrong tree, and so wide off the mark as to be bordering on trolling.
I really don't mind people being blunt. As long as they're not talking out of their behind.
You, I'm afraid, fit the bill. You're not blunt, you're way out of line.
I've read some stupid, blithely ignorant and utterly blinkered opinions of Buddhism in the past but that takes the biscuit.
I'm not being judgmental; I'm disagreeing with you. You are wrong. Your way of dealing with people is not only wrong, it's dangerous. There is not a bit of difference between the justification of your example claiming the right to scare a bully into behaving (which won't work anyway) and someone claiming the right to attack a group of people or an entire nation because you don't like the way they act.
In spite of what you say, bullies in positions of power do not quit because someone threatens them or attacks them. You're playing their game, and they're better at it than you ever will be. The entire world uses your method now. How's that working out?
Buddhist compassion is to fix the situation, not punish the person. What exactly did your friend accomplish? If the people who ran the school were willing to allow one teacher to mistreat students, then another will eventually take his place. Is your friend going to be there with a rock every time? And what happens when the next teacher he throws a rock at picks it up and throws it back?
@karasti
I am not necessarily disagreeing with anything you say. Just that some of us are in no position to 'understand' the bully or find out causes of bullying. We have too much on our plate already, so our goal is to merely survive and defend ourselves against bullies. Delving into the root cause, finding out if the bully was bullied etc. is best left to psychiatrists or others who are on a noble crusade to 'save' the bullies with their godly compassion. The rest of us mortals have our personal traumas to deal with.
@techie It is not always up to us to figure them out. Some people are able to help and some (most) are not. But we can understand that there is an underlying issue and base compassion on that. Most bullies were bullied, often by their families. They are often crying out for help by acting how they do and if we are not qualified to help then we should understand it does not help to hurt them. It often makes things worse and cements their idea that they are treated poorly and they are justified in dishing it back however they can. Those who dish out suffering to others, suffer greatly themselves because they are that far removed from their true nature. For that alone they deserve compassion, even if we must give consequences for their behavior and protect others from them.
Even small children can be taught this. We should stand up for ourselves, but we should not hurt back unless it is a true act of self defense. And as soon as we can, we get help from someone who is in the appropriate place to act. And then we remember that sometimes people behave badly because they don't have the things we have and it makes life hard for them. So we have compassion for their difficulties even while we might keep our distance. My son has turned 2 kids into friends who were previously not nice to him. Just by being nice to them. It turned out they were shy kids with no friends who were acting out because of their social discomfort. He just started being nice to them a little at a time. Now they are friends. And their overall behavior is much better.
We can never get into the head of another person. The worst idea is to throw a stone at it...#
The only actions we can have any solid influence over, be they mental, physical or verbal, are our own.
And how we respond - constructively, skilfully, COMPASSIONATELY - is the key to how things will go.
Things will go in the way we radiate a reaction. And a reaction is off-course.
The saying "Learn how to respond, not to react" would be a fitting one for your friend to hear.
We don't have the long-term result of your friend's reactions.
But I bet it didn't work as he hoped it would.
My dad used to always tell us, "You always have the choice to act destructively or constructively."
...Which in turn reminds me of that American Native tale of the 2 wolves....
I guess it's a matter of...
Doing unto others as "you" would have them do unto "you"
@Shoshin. The Golden Rule is indeed golden. Even in grade school our kindly teachers would often mention it to us.
Sadly @grackle
Due to the relative nature of things...What's the right approach for one, may be the wrong approach for another....
Plus Double standards can have a 'habit' of influencing ones judgement, especially when it comes to exercising moral judgement ....
Do as I say (accept what I say...I'm just being cruel to be kind) ,but not as I do (but don't you dare use a similar tone when talking to me "[if I'm in the wrong]" ...I won't stand for it)
In many instances @Cinorjer 'bullies' are in denial of their bullying nature...They don't know any different and have been conditioned to react in a certain way... "their own way" and to try and point out the error of their way (either using a carrot or a stick...it matters not which one you use) one steps into the bully in the position of power's firing line....a glutton for punishment perhaps....
However, they do say that Change comes from within and one can only hope that enough wholesome seeds of change are planted, (by the gluttons for punishment
) so at least one might stand a chance of germination...I guess this 'change' is what the Buddhist would call a "miracle"....
Seeds grow best from dark filth and dirt. Seeds need nurturing and watering to survive, and they need to struggle upwards to reach the light. Not every seed makes it. But some grow into sequoias....
Heck of a metaphor right there.
The golden rule is a tricky one. It's easy for us to assume everyone else wants to be treated the way we do. It's better than nothing if we aren't sure which way to go but people are just so different. A tough love approach works for some while it alienates others. Most of us would agree we wouldn't want someone to be cruel to us and therefore we shouldn't treat someone else that way. But we already know better in those circumstances anyhow. In more nuanced situations, the golden rule can become harmful in some ways, such between parents and children. Early on I consistently tried to give my kids the things (advice wise) I didn't get. And often my kids needed something vastly different from me. I had to listen to what they needed and step back myself rather than assume what I would have wished for at their ages should also apply to them.
@karasti I agree and as we work our way through the obstacles of parenthood, we come to learn that the old saying "Children should be see and "not" heard!" should be "Children should be see and heard!" because we can learn a lot from each others ...and I've learnt hell of a lot from my four children of which I'm must grateful...
and our listening skills should be adjusted for the Different strokes for the difference in young folks
and when it comes to the "Golden Rule"
Go with the flow of the newfound experiential understanding
-May those with said challenges be well...