Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 2023
@Jeroen said:
In the end what I do about my dilemma doesn’t necessarily have to mean anything for anyone else. I totally respect your choice @person to engage with D&D, its a very personal decision and more wholesome than many computer games, and I really appreciate the time and thought you’ve put into your answers here.
I came across this section on the consummate virtue of monks when searching AccessToInsight for references to games:
"Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to heedless and idle games such as these — eight-row chess, ten-row chess, chess in the air, hopscotch, spillikins, dice, stick games, hand-pictures, ball-games, blowing through toy pipes, playing with toy plows, turning somersaults, playing with toy windmills, toy measures, toy chariots, toy bows, guessing letters drawn in the air, guessing thoughts, mimicking deformities — he abstains from heedless and idle games such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.”
There seem to be a few of these kind of sutras. I find that reading the dharma can sometimes bring me back to some measure of equanimity and clarity when I’ve wandered off the beaten track a little.
No mention of D&D specifically so I'm fine... 😏
More seriously though, I do wonder if there is any distinction to be drawn with householders. He has given counsel to householders to do things that he would counsel renunciates to avoid, such as in managing finances and relationships. Even if such a thing existed it wouldn't really negate the above passage.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
@Shoshin1 said:
Let go of self ...The five clinging aggregates...
In a way it is a question of identification, of the my-making of imaginary things. That’s why you get attached to your level 14 Battle Master Fighter character and to his castle and lands. It’s all make believe, but the make believe gives you the shadows of things which society has told you you should want. You get to play with the idea of having those things.
@Jeroen said:
If I listen deeply to my heart, it tells me I have done enough imaginary killing in my life. There is no need to do more, the only thing I have to do is watch, wait and learn the lesson. Time and mindfulness bring maturity.
Writing the above triggered a feeling of relief in me, I think I have produced enough insight into games and their processes to clarify where I stand. I don’t think there is a lot more to come…
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
More seriously though, I do wonder if there is any distinction to be drawn with householders. He has given counsel to householders to do things that he would counsel renunciates to avoid, such as in managing finances and relationships. Even if such a thing existed it wouldn't really negate the above passage.
It’s possible. The objections against games for monks seem to be on the grounds of “heedlessness” and “negligence”, so basically getting lost in the activities when you have taken vows and your livelihood is provided for. On that basis you might well object against web-browsing and forums as well. I think with householders there is a lot less strict of a standard since they provide for their own livelihood and generally focus more on a good rebirth.
My personal opinions in this thread have been the result of prolonged inner observation. Over the years of Buddhist practice it has become clear to me that playing a lot of games has left some deep traces in me, especially the World of Warcraft playing habit of 40 hours a week while I also had a full time job. It burdened me, that excitement for combat was almost a kind of virtual bloodlust, and I could still feel it flaring up when viewing previews of Tears of the Kingdom.
The thing is, I literally could not count the number of virtual and imaginary foes I have slain over the years of my gaming career. Yes, all in the mind, but these things go on to shape you. But Insight has a remarkable way of cleansing the mind, and I already feel better for it.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Another thing that games do: they give you the illusion of power. In terms of abilities, magic items, spells, authority, the power over life and death in combat. In psychology, there has been a lot of attention paid to the ‘will to power’, which came from Nietzsche and was incorporated by Alfred Adler into his school (see here).
Many computer games use the concepts of levels and abilities to bump up the capabilities of a player, allowing them to take on ever more powerful opponents and give them a feeling of progress. You start by being a match for an Orc, and end up taking on a Storm Giant. You start by casting the Ray of Frost magic cantrip, you end with casting the powerful Meteor Swarm spell.
However this idea of increasing power is a little false too, because all the time the game is trying to provide you with a challenge worthy of your abilities. That is why as your abilities increase, so does the size and power of your enemies. In computer games like World of Warcraft this is very noticeable after a while.
The only time when you really notice your increased power level is when you visit old content, taking on a horde of low-level critters for example. It is gratifying and rewarding to see your characters increase in power and influence, and at the same time it is also a hook to the ego. It’s another level of involvement with the game.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I think a major reason I did gravitate towards D&D was that, like you, I have a craving for some sort of game play. And playing computer games like WoW or Diablo create an addictive, isolating feeling inside. Its engrossing and rewarding while engaged but left me feeling worse.
D&D is an open, creative, social game, that lets you express whatever you like. I don't like the power fantasy, or wanton destruction. In the game I want to be able to explore and express parts of my own psychology I generally can't in the real world. Or try to get into the head of a psychology different than my own. In a more meta way, I wanted to socialize more, and doing so over an activity I feel comfortable with and people who share similar interests is more enjoyable than entering a space that I'm unfamiliar, disinterested in, or dislike because someone told me its superior. It allows me to engage with that interest in a way that is positive and additive to my life rather than subtractive.
Unlike other immersive games, you make of it what you want, you bring the goals and desires to the game, rather than it dictating them to you. You want to accumulate wealth and power, the game allows for that. You want to help make the game world a better place, the game allows for that too.
The computer games that seem to hook me the most - post childhood - are MMORTS games such as Ogame and the various more modern spin-offs. I think @jeroen mentioned "optimization" somewhere above in the thread - that's what I like about them. Where life is open-ended and messy and victory and loss is often blurred, with games such as Ogame I know what the goal is and what the game mechanics are. It's a closed and relatively simple system that one can understand. Then, I become obsessed with "optimizing" everything and progressing as fast as possible. I played on average maybe once in two years, for a week or two at a time, but when I do play I'm usually quite obsessive. Last time I played Ogame I had to ban myself in order to be sure I won't play any more.
But I also love to play boardgames with friends and except for a bit of friendly competitiveness do not find any negative effects to those. Also online chess.
2
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
@marcitko said:
I played on average maybe once in two years, for a week or two at a time, but when I do play I'm usually quite obsessive. Last time I played Ogame I had to ban myself in order to be sure I won't play any more.
That sounds familiar. When I left World of Warcraft I had about 20,000 gold, and that was in the days when that was serious coin. I donated it all to the guild bank, disenchanted my epic gear and left my characters standing in front of the Ironforge auction house. I’ve never logged back in.
The whole thing of raiding, of being part of a team where you had an essential role, was what I found most enjoyable. I did a lot of dungeoning too, once they fixed Druid healing so that you could actually keep the party alive as the main healer.
Optimising was fun for a while too, although finally when people started to analyse the game in terms of ability rotations I lost the passion for it. You needed a spreadsheet to really understand it, and life is too short to make spreadsheets about games.
But I also love to play boardgames with friends and except for a bit of friendly competitiveness do not find any negative effects to those. Also online chess.
I still play boardgames once in a while, though I dislike the ‘race to victory’ aspect of them. Settlers of Cataan and Ticket To Ride were good fun, with the right group of friends and family. Its only a social thing for me now though.
Ultimately I think D&D is a better game to play in groups, it allows you to do some acting and drama in the whole thing, and it has more potential over extended play.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
I think a major reason I did gravitate towards D&D was that, like you, I have a craving for some sort of game play. And playing computer games like WoW or Diablo create an addictive, isolating feeling inside. Its engrossing and rewarding while engaged but left me feeling worse.
When I first got into games I wasn’t aware of these things, I was just following what the game wanted you to do. Earlier you mentioned something about computer games ‘railroading’ you, that’s certainly been true of the games I played a lot of. Even a supposedly open world game like Fallout 4 does that by the way it awards experience and levels. So you kind of get led into a path of killing everything on sight.
D&D is an open, creative, social game, that lets you express whatever you like. I don't like the power fantasy, or wanton destruction. In the game I want to be able to explore and express parts of my own psychology I generally can't in the real world.
That I think is the best part of D&D, that you can make it your own. But some parts like the power aspect is imposed on you by the game mechanics. Experience and levels. Needing lots of gold for some things. Magic items.
Unlike other immersive games, you make of it what you want, you bring the goals and desires to the game, rather than it dictating them to you.
That is true, but that also means you bring the negative aspects of your psychological makeup, which you may not even be aware of:
Your own violence, bloodlust, anger at wicked things
Your ambition and desire for power, which often comes from being young and weak
Your greed, wanting to have the things that materialistic society tells you to want
And you can express these things in the safety of your own imagination, so there are no problems with the real world’s limits keeping you in check. You may find yourself looking a bit too far into the dark side of things, depending on how you play. A skilled DM could certainly bring these kinds of themes into a campaign.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The timing of this thread may be fortunate for myself. I recently joined a new group playing a different system on a different platform than I'm used to. We've only gone maybe 7 or 8 hours so far and I've been pretty overwhelmed just learning all the new stuff, but it feels kind of murder-hobo-y. The GM seems pretty experienced and flexible so once I feel more comfortable with the fundamentals I can spend more energy towards non combat solutions and expressions and see how the group responds, at least two of them in addition to the GM have decent RP skills. I guess I'm saying that this particular group may not be the best fit, we'll see.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
So it did give you a few things to think about, that’s cool. The thing is, even as a support character in D&D you are enabling a few fighters, rogues and wizards to do their thing to whatever enemies the Dungeon Master has placed in your path. If the party wants to go kill goblin bandits, then you’re kind of forced to tag along.
It puts me in mind of this sutra:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.
A lot of people only come to a spiritual understanding late in life, and often those people have long since given up on games and play. So I think it is quite rare to come across a spiritually aware group of players, who are going to treat the dilemma’s of the game seriously because even in their imagination they don’t want to be taking lives left, right and centre.
But is a creature like a Manticore fair game just because it is selfish, even if it is evil-aligned? Of course in a fantasy world humans may be the natural prey of creatures like dragons or wyverns, and it could be a case of kill or be killed. But often adventurers go out and come across creatures in their lairs, which is a bit of home invasion.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Is it pure and perfect? No. Does it have to be in order to have positive value? I don't think so. Do I feel happier after a session, as opposed to after a session of video gaming? Yes. On the whole is it a positive aspect of my life? Yes. Would other people answer these questions the same? Unlikely. Does that make it bad or good? Is insulin good or bad for people to take.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
@Jeroen said:
But is a creature like a Manticore fair game just because it is selfish, even if it is evil-aligned? Of course in a fantasy world humans may be the natural prey of creatures like dragons or wyverns, and it could be a case of kill or be killed. But often adventurers go out and come across creatures in their lairs, which is a bit of home invasion.
You could certainly say that anything that is going to try to kill your character on sight is a fair target in combat. There are Asian buddhist monk traditions like the Shaolin, which kind of proves that even those who strictly adhere to buddhist standards don’t have to take things lying down. Pure pacifism isn’t necessary, or even advisable in a medieval fantasy world.
And the social aspects definitely make play enjoyable, fun and energising. Its an opportunity to play with the world and your imagination, I totally agree. And even presenting an ethical dilemma, such as “your party meets an extremely richly dressed merchant with his caravan and just a few guards on the road in the wilderness” and if you initiate combat and take his goods, your alignment changes to Chaotic Evil makes for an interesting opportunity for role play.
For a buddhist, its an interesting choice, am I going to do a certain amount of imaginary breaking of heads, or am I going to adhere to the First Precept even in games like D&D? As an adventuring group you can do great good, breaking curses, rescuing people, dealing with deadly monsters. But even these great deeds live only in the imagination.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
@Jeroen said: If I listen deeply to my heart, it tells me I have done enough imaginary killing in my life.
This keeps coming back to me. The whole idea of being a hero in games, the high ideals, of answering the call of those in need (and slaying their enemies), is something that I seem to now be ready to let go of. It had become a burden, that I could just barely feel in meditative spaces. It was only an illusion after all, a thing born of the imagination.
In real life I am much more a meditator, a spiritual seeker, a software developer, a maker of designs and toy games. A man of peace, not really a hero or an adventurer at all. It isn’t good to confuse imagination with reality on any level, even if it is only in dreams. Maybe it’s also time to let go of a few youthful ideas.
It isn’t really about the First Precept, it is about being true to myself. It is about what playing games has made me. A make-believe murder-hobo’ing hero, a virtual counterpoint to the man of peace and love. Well, we seem to have arrived at a moment of truth.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 2023
I was listening to 10% Happier today and Dan has started having occasional informal shows with a couple meditation teachers and friends of his Sebene Sellase and Jeff Warren, where they have a much more free form conversation. At some point it came up that Sebene had recently taken up dancing for the joy of it. The way she talked about it reminded me a lot of my own experience. She's been going to some clubs with a certain style of music that sounds more rhythmic and an older crowd, and that dance is always something that she had loved but for various reasons had excluded from her life. And that now she was in her 50s she feels so much more free about expressing herself, that she's more comfortable in her skin and isn't much worried about impressing anyone anymore.
@Jeroen, I appreciate that its not the sort of thing you want in your life anymore, but your language is dismissive of the thing itself rather than it just being about what you want in your life.
For example imagination is at the core of practices like tonglen or metta meditations. Using imaginative practices to cultivate attitudes within ourselves that then get applied in the real world. And yet you dismiss the value imagination can have for real life entirely.
And then, my attitude towards my own Buddhism has been that its mostly for my character and little for my personality. Meaning it makes me a kinder, wiser person, but not someone who wears mala beads and goes to empowerments for something to do. I'd rather just do the things I like and let the practice inform how I do them. In that regard its perfectly possible for me to play D&D or a game of volleyball, to go camping or talk about politics online and be a Buddhist.
Its like if I talked about all the ways that people who develop software, designs and toy games do those things in ways that are hurtful to others and themselves and then say that's what those things are so I don't want anything to do with them anymore. Rather than say when I do those things my conditioning pulls me in ways that I want to avoid cultivating so I need to also let go of the activity.
Aside from my own subjective feelings on the matter. So long as you're placing blame on external factors rather than acknowledging your own internal attitudes, those subtle attitudes will just manifest in some other realm. Its not that external factors aren't at cause, its the pragmatic notion that its now a part of you that needs to be addressed.
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
Apologies if I hurt your feelings with my choice of words, @person. I was writing “in the spur of the moment” as it were. I hope to do better in the future, right speech is still a challenge sometimes.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
But to come back to the theme of youthfulness, the whole idea of being a hero is something that draws you into a game like D&D, it lends it a certain allure. That and having a real influence on your surroundings were draws for me when I was young.
But I have struggled much in my thoughts to move beyond good and evil, and the way they are portrayed in role-playing games on the computer and on the table top. It was only with the realisation that that division was artificial, supported by rules in the games but non-existent in the real world, that the insights into the complexities of human and animal motivation really gained meaning for me. This has been something of the last decade.
But just the last couple of days I’m starting to realise it was part of my self-image as well, that I always saw myself as a “good” person, heroic, and that that was formed by games. Of course that implied to a certain extent also seeing the world as ‘good’ and ‘bad’. That heroism was aspirational, and games were a safe way to express that wish, but now that I’m over 50 I can look back at the years I’ve lived through and have a more realistic view of who I have really been.
In a way it is an extension of my spiritual journey — the whole question of self-knowledge and of living an examined life. Clarity, insight, these things are what I value now.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
But to come back to the theme of youthfulness, the whole idea of being a hero is something that draws you into a game like D&D, it lends it a certain allure. That and having a real influence on your surroundings were draws for me when I was young.
But I have struggled much in my thoughts to move beyond good and evil, and the way they are portrayed in role-playing games on the computer and on the table top. It was only with the realisation that that division was artificial, supported by rules in the games but non-existent in the real world, that the insights into the complexities of human and animal motivation really gained meaning for me. This has been something of the last decade.
But just the last couple of days I’m starting to realise it was part of my self-image as well, that I always saw myself as a “good” person, heroic, and that that was formed by games. Of course that implied to a certain extent also seeing the world as ‘good’ and ‘bad’. That heroism was aspirational, and games were a safe way to express that wish, but now that I’m over 50 I can look back at the years I’ve lived through and have a more realistic view of who I have really been.
In a way it is an extension of my spiritual journey — the whole question of self-knowledge and of living an examined life. Clarity, insight, these things are what I value now.
That's a good thing to move beyond. It seems to me though that your perceptions are based on the way you played D&D 30ish years ago and certain computer games, rather than how its played now. Like I've said several times, the game is open and can be expressed however you want. In 5th edition the mechanical ties to alignment were removed and the designers have been moving away from it more and more. Its much more a shorthand descriptor for a roleplaying guide than any sort of essence that gives the "good" people carte blanche to murder all the "evil" people.
Many people simply don't think of alignment the way you do, they like complexity and nuance, they want the antagonists and protagonists to have complex motivations.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
Maybe I am a little allergic to certain things, having taken them to excess in the distant past. I’m still watching a bit of Critical Role to get a feel for how the modern game is played. But I notice that they still have the guide to the Planes by alignment, and so on.
I do think that people naturally have an inclination to be good and helpful, it seems to come to us from our time as a baby and the experience of a mother’s love. Some people are very misguided though, and you get nations fighting a war when both sides think they are doing the right thing.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 2023
@Jeroen said:
Maybe I am a little allergic to certain things, having taken them to excess in the past. I’m still watching a bit of Critical Role to get a feel for how the modern game is played. But I notice that they still have the guide to the Planes by alignment, and so on.
Yeah, planar creatures like angels and devils still are considered as having alignment essences. It isn't completely gone from the game, its that they're moving away from it and it isn't treated the way you're describing it less and less. What is the "so on", you're referring to?
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
@person said:
What is the "so on", you're referring to?
There are still some spells and magic items which reference it, such as Protection from Good and Evil. It’s still used to a certain extent by a Cleric’s gods and by Paladins, and seems to recur in world events (evil god arising in the desert, followers of a demon prince building a portal, and so on).
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Yeah, I think this topic needs some nuance.
Good and evil, law and chaos aren't completely gone from the game. Heavens are stiil considered good and hells are considered evil. There are also extraplanar realms that represent forces of law and chaos exist. What they're moving away from is these sorts of essences existing in beings on the worldly plane. So orcs aren't inherently and inevitably evil and elves aren't inherently good. Certain groups can have wicked practices and beliefs that may cause people to think of them as evil or good. But that's different from them having wicked practices and beliefs because they're evil. And not every member of that fantasy race is born with those traits.
Like you say people come into conflict from things like misunderstanding or conflict between two valuable things, rather than one side being good and one being evil. That sort of nuanced moral conflict is more interesting to explore.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
“The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood,
the mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.”
— Seng T’san, Hsin Hsin Ming
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 2023
@Jeroen said:
“The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood,
the mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.”
— Seng T’san, Hsin Hsin Ming
Games clearly aren't a part of the path to enlightenment. Since that is your goal, its probably best to let go and try to understand how they've shaped your mind. Enlightenment isn't my goal.
Are you trying to convince me, or yourself?
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Certainly not trying to convince you, that would be foolish since you are happy playing and it is still an important part of your life. I just like this “verse”, it speaks to me while I try to unburden myself.
I thought I had left games behind, then I watched the Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom trailer and got tempted. It convinced me there was still something there, an enthusiasm, a hidden draw, some deeply buried layers. It was in my dreams too, being at a games development company, but also dreams of slaying monsters.
So I decided to do the work to make it conscious, where it came from, the effects, how it worked. Basically what part of me was being drawn to it. Because I felt I wasn’t able to be authentic in the man of spirituality on the one hand and the man of games and fantasy on the other.
I don’t want to banish the aspect of play from my life, play is a core feature of youth. But spirituality is the quest for truth, and being authentic is a part of that, and I don’t think you can be truly spiritual without being authentic, and part of that is shedding as many masks as you can.
I’m just glad I’ve had the space on the forum to write it all down, and that you @person and others have shared and contributed in the journey. Ultimately you can’t separate who you are from who you were, and fantasy, games and D&D have done good things for me too.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I’m not even sure if enlightenment is my goal as such. I just follow my inner compass, which is set to take me to wholeness, health, truth and freedom. Mental health is a big part of that, and consciousness, watching inside is important as well.
It was Socrates who said, “the unexamined life is not worth living”, and one thing that I have found, it is love, kindness and mildness which is at the core of me. Which is why the habit of virtual dungeon crawls no longer fits, and I want to separate my ideas of joy and play from that, by making conscious that which draws me to it.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I haven’t even talked about my fantasy fiction habit yet. Like the D&D playing this was in the distant past during the first 35 years of my life, but I used to read a lot of science fiction and fantasy novels. Traditionally those are stories in which the main character is a hero, there is a good versus evil balance that has been disturbed and the hero has to set things right.
So in a way this was a doubling up of those kinds of ideas, from computer games, D&D and the books. Luckily I read quite widely and so was also exposed to other concepts, but especially in my teens there was a significant quantity of standard fare. I feel it was an influence, but a lesser one than the others.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 2023
Like D&D, scifi and fantasy have changed over the years too. The good guy, bad guy dynamic has shifted to much more morally complex stories and characters. They've also tended to become more violent so I'm not sure you'd want to engage. But I do wonder if having some experience of these things you're attracted to where the tropes aren't so simplistic would help point out how these older versions of things have shaped your views?
Or IDK, now that I'm writing this, I'm wondering if instead of good vs evil you're rather referring to protagonist vs antagonist in a story? Maybe that is similar but it seems to me more like a protagonist doesn't have to wear a white hat, they just have to have a challenge to overcome in some way and an antagonist doesn't have to wear a black hat, they just have to represent some sort of obstacle.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I had a bit of clarity, for me the attraction when I was young was to have adventures. Fantasy books are more removed than D&D, with D&D you are more involved. But when you’re a teenager and moving into becoming an adult, adventures are practice for the real world. Then when you encounter a game like D&D you are drawn along, into the game system of character classes, hit points and skill checks.
It’s funny, how insights can liberate, how they can clear out the old and bring space for the new. It’s as if by recognising things, a thought arises, yes that is how it was, and it consigns the old questions and enthusiasms to a different place.
Later in life, the spiritual path tends to change all kinds of things. When people become buddhist their life often takes a turn. For me, it currently means piercing through illusions, shedding what is not real, and coming closer to the truth.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
I went onto another Buddhist forum to see what they had to say about video games, there wasn’t much interest but apparently the Karmapa Lama plays various wargames on his Playstation. He sees it as skillfull means, an avenue to release various pent-up feelings.
I’m going to let it rest for a while. I sometimes have a tendency to take things too far, a feature of a certain innate enthusiasm and an ability to see further than most. Maybe in a few days I will return to this topic, with more of a balanced view.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Maybe related to this thread, I noticed sports is an interest you maintain. How are games and sports categorized in your mind? What is the distinction between the two, that one interest is to be let go of and the other is maintained?
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
I do watch a little football from time to time. I enjoy “the beautiful game”, so when the later stages of the Champions League come around or the World Cup is being played I watch.
It’s interesting isn’t it, to see what engages your passion, your enthusiasm. Watching football feels further removed than a game like World of Warcraft, where you are in the midst of the action rather than just watching it on a screen. Football I feel like I can let go of at any moment, it’s just an entertainment.
Computer games I find might absorb me, if I got back into them. I might lose myself in them, in the ideas of analysis, playing well, enjoying the cinematic worlds. D&D is somewhere in between, a good place to view what’s really happening.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 2023
I just came across the Milestone levelling method in D&D, and that seems a vast improvement over the old AD&D experience point system. In the old system, your character gained experience for killing monsters which encouraged murder hobo’ing and making characters which were basically killing machines. It never made much sense to me, why you would get better at casting spells or tougher as a tank by sustaining and dealing damage.
The milestone method seems to say, by reaching certain points in the story the players gain levels, regardless of how they got there. So the DM no longer has to track experience points, the players are encouraged to think creatively, everybody wins! Of course you should keep general track of how many xp there are in a dungeon, so that you don’t vastly start changing the pace of the game and you know when it’s appropriate to gain a level.
But a huge improvement overall.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
When I played in high school a friend of mine played a thief and whenever we'd be in a city he'd just pickpocket a bunch of people for the xp, it was kind of annoying. One of my games does use xp, but does it pretty loosely. We get xp for non violent strategies just as much as violence, as well as role playing, etc. And its more of a guide for the DM to know when to level us since the campaign is really open and where the milestones should be isn't clear.
Another notion to perhaps leave behind is the video game idea of group composition. Tank, healer, dps. A good mix is still a decent idea but since its such an open game with a human in charge there are lots of ways to overcome challenges.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
Another notion to perhaps leave behind is the video game idea of group composition. Tank, healer, dps.
The thing is, concepts like “levelling without experience points” and “combat in the theatre of the mind” remove large slices of detailed game mechanics which could be power-gamed and leave more room for focus on role play. Which to me feels like a good thing.
The traditional mmorpg group division is only a very rough guide I think in D&D, I’ve never yet played a D&D game in which there was such a thing as a dedicated mmorpg-style tank.
As a DM I always had unintelligent monsters prefer targeting heavily armoured opponents, seeing these as the greater threat. But for intelligent monsters I’d always assume they were aware of the threat posed by magic users, so would often try to take them out.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Another video game habit that I think is tricky is identifying oneself with a character on screen. You’re in control of that character, your vision is centred on that character, so you assume that is you, but in effect you can see the character from some removed distance and that proves it is not you.
What this does is it fosters a loose kind of identification of who you are in the real world, and the fact that you have agency in the game world through this character means there are strong reasons to identify with the character and make it mine.
Hmmm…
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
It’s curious, all this thinking about video games and D&D has caused a change in me now that I’ve let it settle for a few days. The process of looking deeply at these things has removed a source of pain and trepidation and a series of conditioned habits, and I now feel more relaxed about this, as if the area has become known and better understood and it’s sting removed.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
This morning someone on another forum said to me “if you want to play the spiritual game…”
Which made me think, but spirituality is not a game. It is to be approached with sincerity and genuine honesty; you can’t play at it from some imagined position of safety. And that is the key difference with games - they are all play, there is nothing to be risked. If you approach spirituality as a game, likely you will get very little out of it.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I might give the computer game Baldurs Gate 3 a try from the mindful playing perspective. A cousin of mine invited me to a multiplayer playthrough. It has turn-based combat, so there is little chance of getting as caught up in it as something like Diablo 3 which I would definitely avoid. I think it would be fun to play with my cousin, that’s the main draw.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The social aspect has been one my main reasons for getting re involved with TTRPGs. I've been looking at BG3 too, I haven't played a large scale video game like that for maybe a decade, Dragon Age: Origins, but I'd have to upgrade and get a new computer. Which I've been wanting to do, its just the cost, so we'll see.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 2023
Yeah, the last time I played a big game was Mass Effect 3 also about a decade ago. But I have a reasonably up to date computer, an M1 iMac, and there is a Mac native version of Baldurs Gate 3 in the works, so it should all work out.
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited September 2023
@Jeroen said:
I just came across the Milestone levelling method in D&D, and that seems a vast improvement over the old AD&D experience point system. In the old system, your character gained experience for killing monsters which encouraged murder hobo’ing and making characters which were basically killing machines. It never made much sense to me, why you would get better at casting spells or tougher as a tank by sustaining and dealing damage.
The milestone method seems to say, by reaching certain points in the story the players gain levels, regardless of how they got there. So the DM no longer has to track experience points, the players are encouraged to think creatively, everybody wins! Of course you should keep general track of how many xp there are in a dungeon, so that you don’t vastly start changing the pace of the game and you know when it’s appropriate to gain a level.
I think that letting go of something requires practice. Letting go of thought is the best practice, because thought precedes pretty much everything.
If you want to stop gaming, and your heart is in it, then just stop. There's nothing really wrong with gaming, and there's no need to make it into some sort of epic struggle out of it. Just let it go. It won't bring you any closer to enlightenment, really, but it's good practice :-).
I think that meditation is an experiential illumination that shows that.....
any attachment that is addressed, without simply substituting that said attachment for another attachment, is in itself a movement along the path towards suffering's cessation.
4
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@IdleChater said:
I think that letting go of something requires practice. Letting go of thought is the best practice, because thought precedes pretty much everything.
If you want to stop gaming, and your heart is in it, then just stop. There's nothing really wrong with gaming, and there's no need to make it into some sort of epic struggle out of it. Just let it go. It won't bring you any closer to enlightenment, really, but it's good practice :-).
I think that for me the idea of games had gone so deep that it took several attempts to really let go of it. It kind of embeds itself as an ingrained habit, the remnants of an addiction. Games are thought conditioning, with many attractive aspects and some repulsive ones.
Finding those kind of conditionings in your mental make-up is part of the process of self knowledge which is part of the spiritual path; some people have it with love and sex, many people with thoughts. You might say that these things have more to do with psychology than dharma, but it’s philosophy as well.
As Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living.
@Jeroen said:
I think that for me the idea of games had gone so deep that it took several attempts to really let go of it. It kind of embeds itself as an ingrained habit, the remnants of an addiction. Games are thought conditioning, with many attractive aspects and some repulsive ones.
Finding those kind of conditionings in your mental make-up is part of the process of self knowledge which is part of the spiritual path; some people have it with love and sex, many people with thoughts. You might say that these things have more to do with psychology than dharma, but it’s philosophy as well.
As Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living.
I think you and I are talking about two different things. Fair enough.
Everyday I observe people on their devices ( laptops, tablets, phones) absorbed in the game, mind against machine, or mind against mind, a strong desire to win the dopamine rush battle...
I'm not an online, gamer...however I do enter some online competitions.... for example I've just finished playing an Air NZ air points competitions where you have to find the location from the clue given, and be in the draw to win air points, before this air points competition I hadn't entered an online competitions for years (I'm an air points member and they send out an update each month, this is how I found out about the competition)....
I have no interest in playing other kinds of online games...I guess I'm lucky in this sense...
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
One thing I noticed while watching a Let’s Play video of Baldur’s Gate 3 was that after a while I started feeling a certain pressure to “complete things”, that I wanted to progress faster and faster. Even just from watching the video… it’s like many of the interactions in the game are not honestly human, but are aimed towards making the player accept quests and complete quests.
The Mac version of the game is not out until later this month, so I’m spending a little time watching a few videos and getting familiar with the game.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
One thing I noticed while watching a Let’s Play video of Baldur’s Gate 3 was that after a while I started feeling a certain pressure to “complete things”, that I wanted to progress faster and faster. Even just from watching the video… it’s like many of the interactions in the game are not honestly human, but are aimed towards making the player accept quests and complete quests.
The Mac version of the game is not out until later this month, so I’m spending a little time watching a few videos and getting familiar with the game.
That aspect of video games is a big part of the reason I don't play them anymore. I get really addicted to that sort of thinking. When I was younger a "fun" activity for me was to empty the penny jar and count them all up, making neat little stacks of ten. Tedious, repetitive activities that have an end goal fit a rut in my brain.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
That aspect of video games is a big part of the reason I don't play them anymore. I get really addicted to that sort of thinking. When I was younger a "fun" activity for me was to empty the penny jar and count them all up, making neat little stacks of ten. Tedious, repetitive activities that have an end goal fit a rut in my brain.
Yes, on a computer game these things become like an automatism, they tap into the same part of the mind as is driving a car, and some games can become like a complex dance of buttons and clicks. World of Warcraft was like that for me, it was a big part of what drove the addiction.
Which is part of why I am having a close look at Baldur’s Gate 3 before getting involved. I think the level of difficulty is quite well pitched, you need to take account of line of sight and resistances in the tougher fights, and make sure you stock up on healing potions and speed potions. Which means you have to think, and it’s less likely to become automatic.
Comments
No mention of D&D specifically so I'm fine... 😏
More seriously though, I do wonder if there is any distinction to be drawn with householders. He has given counsel to householders to do things that he would counsel renunciates to avoid, such as in managing finances and relationships. Even if such a thing existed it wouldn't really negate the above passage.
In a way it is a question of identification, of the my-making of imaginary things. That’s why you get attached to your level 14 Battle Master Fighter character and to his castle and lands. It’s all make believe, but the make believe gives you the shadows of things which society has told you you should want. You get to play with the idea of having those things.
Writing the above triggered a feeling of relief in me, I think I have produced enough insight into games and their processes to clarify where I stand. I don’t think there is a lot more to come…
It’s possible. The objections against games for monks seem to be on the grounds of “heedlessness” and “negligence”, so basically getting lost in the activities when you have taken vows and your livelihood is provided for. On that basis you might well object against web-browsing and forums as well. I think with householders there is a lot less strict of a standard since they provide for their own livelihood and generally focus more on a good rebirth.
My personal opinions in this thread have been the result of prolonged inner observation. Over the years of Buddhist practice it has become clear to me that playing a lot of games has left some deep traces in me, especially the World of Warcraft playing habit of 40 hours a week while I also had a full time job. It burdened me, that excitement for combat was almost a kind of virtual bloodlust, and I could still feel it flaring up when viewing previews of Tears of the Kingdom.
The thing is, I literally could not count the number of virtual and imaginary foes I have slain over the years of my gaming career. Yes, all in the mind, but these things go on to shape you. But Insight has a remarkable way of cleansing the mind, and I already feel better for it.
Another thing that games do: they give you the illusion of power. In terms of abilities, magic items, spells, authority, the power over life and death in combat. In psychology, there has been a lot of attention paid to the ‘will to power’, which came from Nietzsche and was incorporated by Alfred Adler into his school (see here).
Many computer games use the concepts of levels and abilities to bump up the capabilities of a player, allowing them to take on ever more powerful opponents and give them a feeling of progress. You start by being a match for an Orc, and end up taking on a Storm Giant. You start by casting the Ray of Frost magic cantrip, you end with casting the powerful Meteor Swarm spell.
However this idea of increasing power is a little false too, because all the time the game is trying to provide you with a challenge worthy of your abilities. That is why as your abilities increase, so does the size and power of your enemies. In computer games like World of Warcraft this is very noticeable after a while.
The only time when you really notice your increased power level is when you visit old content, taking on a horde of low-level critters for example. It is gratifying and rewarding to see your characters increase in power and influence, and at the same time it is also a hook to the ego. It’s another level of involvement with the game.
I think a major reason I did gravitate towards D&D was that, like you, I have a craving for some sort of game play. And playing computer games like WoW or Diablo create an addictive, isolating feeling inside. Its engrossing and rewarding while engaged but left me feeling worse.
D&D is an open, creative, social game, that lets you express whatever you like. I don't like the power fantasy, or wanton destruction. In the game I want to be able to explore and express parts of my own psychology I generally can't in the real world. Or try to get into the head of a psychology different than my own. In a more meta way, I wanted to socialize more, and doing so over an activity I feel comfortable with and people who share similar interests is more enjoyable than entering a space that I'm unfamiliar, disinterested in, or dislike because someone told me its superior. It allows me to engage with that interest in a way that is positive and additive to my life rather than subtractive.
Unlike other immersive games, you make of it what you want, you bring the goals and desires to the game, rather than it dictating them to you. You want to accumulate wealth and power, the game allows for that. You want to help make the game world a better place, the game allows for that too.
The computer games that seem to hook me the most - post childhood - are MMORTS games such as Ogame and the various more modern spin-offs. I think @jeroen mentioned "optimization" somewhere above in the thread - that's what I like about them. Where life is open-ended and messy and victory and loss is often blurred, with games such as Ogame I know what the goal is and what the game mechanics are. It's a closed and relatively simple system that one can understand. Then, I become obsessed with "optimizing" everything and progressing as fast as possible. I played on average maybe once in two years, for a week or two at a time, but when I do play I'm usually quite obsessive. Last time I played Ogame I had to ban myself in order to be sure I won't play any more.
But I also love to play boardgames with friends and except for a bit of friendly competitiveness do not find any negative effects to those. Also online chess.
That sounds familiar. When I left World of Warcraft I had about 20,000 gold, and that was in the days when that was serious coin. I donated it all to the guild bank, disenchanted my epic gear and left my characters standing in front of the Ironforge auction house. I’ve never logged back in.
The whole thing of raiding, of being part of a team where you had an essential role, was what I found most enjoyable. I did a lot of dungeoning too, once they fixed Druid healing so that you could actually keep the party alive as the main healer.
Optimising was fun for a while too, although finally when people started to analyse the game in terms of ability rotations I lost the passion for it. You needed a spreadsheet to really understand it, and life is too short to make spreadsheets about games.
I still play boardgames once in a while, though I dislike the ‘race to victory’ aspect of them. Settlers of Cataan and Ticket To Ride were good fun, with the right group of friends and family. Its only a social thing for me now though.
Ultimately I think D&D is a better game to play in groups, it allows you to do some acting and drama in the whole thing, and it has more potential over extended play.
When I first got into games I wasn’t aware of these things, I was just following what the game wanted you to do. Earlier you mentioned something about computer games ‘railroading’ you, that’s certainly been true of the games I played a lot of. Even a supposedly open world game like Fallout 4 does that by the way it awards experience and levels. So you kind of get led into a path of killing everything on sight.
That I think is the best part of D&D, that you can make it your own. But some parts like the power aspect is imposed on you by the game mechanics. Experience and levels. Needing lots of gold for some things. Magic items.
That is true, but that also means you bring the negative aspects of your psychological makeup, which you may not even be aware of:
And you can express these things in the safety of your own imagination, so there are no problems with the real world’s limits keeping you in check. You may find yourself looking a bit too far into the dark side of things, depending on how you play. A skilled DM could certainly bring these kinds of themes into a campaign.
The timing of this thread may be fortunate for myself. I recently joined a new group playing a different system on a different platform than I'm used to. We've only gone maybe 7 or 8 hours so far and I've been pretty overwhelmed just learning all the new stuff, but it feels kind of murder-hobo-y. The GM seems pretty experienced and flexible so once I feel more comfortable with the fundamentals I can spend more energy towards non combat solutions and expressions and see how the group responds, at least two of them in addition to the GM have decent RP skills. I guess I'm saying that this particular group may not be the best fit, we'll see.
So it did give you a few things to think about, that’s cool. The thing is, even as a support character in D&D you are enabling a few fighters, rogues and wizards to do their thing to whatever enemies the Dungeon Master has placed in your path. If the party wants to go kill goblin bandits, then you’re kind of forced to tag along.
It puts me in mind of this sutra:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.002.than.html
A lot of people only come to a spiritual understanding late in life, and often those people have long since given up on games and play. So I think it is quite rare to come across a spiritually aware group of players, who are going to treat the dilemma’s of the game seriously because even in their imagination they don’t want to be taking lives left, right and centre.
But is a creature like a Manticore fair game just because it is selfish, even if it is evil-aligned? Of course in a fantasy world humans may be the natural prey of creatures like dragons or wyverns, and it could be a case of kill or be killed. But often adventurers go out and come across creatures in their lairs, which is a bit of home invasion.
Is it pure and perfect? No. Does it have to be in order to have positive value? I don't think so. Do I feel happier after a session, as opposed to after a session of video gaming? Yes. On the whole is it a positive aspect of my life? Yes. Would other people answer these questions the same? Unlikely. Does that make it bad or good? Is insulin good or bad for people to take.
You could certainly say that anything that is going to try to kill your character on sight is a fair target in combat. There are Asian buddhist monk traditions like the Shaolin, which kind of proves that even those who strictly adhere to buddhist standards don’t have to take things lying down. Pure pacifism isn’t necessary, or even advisable in a medieval fantasy world.
And the social aspects definitely make play enjoyable, fun and energising. Its an opportunity to play with the world and your imagination, I totally agree. And even presenting an ethical dilemma, such as “your party meets an extremely richly dressed merchant with his caravan and just a few guards on the road in the wilderness” and if you initiate combat and take his goods, your alignment changes to Chaotic Evil makes for an interesting opportunity for role play.
For a buddhist, its an interesting choice, am I going to do a certain amount of imaginary breaking of heads, or am I going to adhere to the First Precept even in games like D&D? As an adventuring group you can do great good, breaking curses, rescuing people, dealing with deadly monsters. But even these great deeds live only in the imagination.
This keeps coming back to me. The whole idea of being a hero in games, the high ideals, of answering the call of those in need (and slaying their enemies), is something that I seem to now be ready to let go of. It had become a burden, that I could just barely feel in meditative spaces. It was only an illusion after all, a thing born of the imagination.
In real life I am much more a meditator, a spiritual seeker, a software developer, a maker of designs and toy games. A man of peace, not really a hero or an adventurer at all. It isn’t good to confuse imagination with reality on any level, even if it is only in dreams. Maybe it’s also time to let go of a few youthful ideas.
It isn’t really about the First Precept, it is about being true to myself. It is about what playing games has made me. A make-believe murder-hobo’ing hero, a virtual counterpoint to the man of peace and love. Well, we seem to have arrived at a moment of truth.
I was listening to 10% Happier today and Dan has started having occasional informal shows with a couple meditation teachers and friends of his Sebene Sellase and Jeff Warren, where they have a much more free form conversation. At some point it came up that Sebene had recently taken up dancing for the joy of it. The way she talked about it reminded me a lot of my own experience. She's been going to some clubs with a certain style of music that sounds more rhythmic and an older crowd, and that dance is always something that she had loved but for various reasons had excluded from her life. And that now she was in her 50s she feels so much more free about expressing herself, that she's more comfortable in her skin and isn't much worried about impressing anyone anymore.
@Jeroen, I appreciate that its not the sort of thing you want in your life anymore, but your language is dismissive of the thing itself rather than it just being about what you want in your life.
For example imagination is at the core of practices like tonglen or metta meditations. Using imaginative practices to cultivate attitudes within ourselves that then get applied in the real world. And yet you dismiss the value imagination can have for real life entirely.
And then, my attitude towards my own Buddhism has been that its mostly for my character and little for my personality. Meaning it makes me a kinder, wiser person, but not someone who wears mala beads and goes to empowerments for something to do. I'd rather just do the things I like and let the practice inform how I do them. In that regard its perfectly possible for me to play D&D or a game of volleyball, to go camping or talk about politics online and be a Buddhist.
Its like if I talked about all the ways that people who develop software, designs and toy games do those things in ways that are hurtful to others and themselves and then say that's what those things are so I don't want anything to do with them anymore. Rather than say when I do those things my conditioning pulls me in ways that I want to avoid cultivating so I need to also let go of the activity.
Aside from my own subjective feelings on the matter. So long as you're placing blame on external factors rather than acknowledging your own internal attitudes, those subtle attitudes will just manifest in some other realm. Its not that external factors aren't at cause, its the pragmatic notion that its now a part of you that needs to be addressed.
https://tricycle.org/article/train-your-mind-drive-all-blames-into-one/
Apologies if I hurt your feelings with my choice of words, @person. I was writing “in the spur of the moment” as it were. I hope to do better in the future, right speech is still a challenge sometimes.
But to come back to the theme of youthfulness, the whole idea of being a hero is something that draws you into a game like D&D, it lends it a certain allure. That and having a real influence on your surroundings were draws for me when I was young.
But I have struggled much in my thoughts to move beyond good and evil, and the way they are portrayed in role-playing games on the computer and on the table top. It was only with the realisation that that division was artificial, supported by rules in the games but non-existent in the real world, that the insights into the complexities of human and animal motivation really gained meaning for me. This has been something of the last decade.
But just the last couple of days I’m starting to realise it was part of my self-image as well, that I always saw myself as a “good” person, heroic, and that that was formed by games. Of course that implied to a certain extent also seeing the world as ‘good’ and ‘bad’. That heroism was aspirational, and games were a safe way to express that wish, but now that I’m over 50 I can look back at the years I’ve lived through and have a more realistic view of who I have really been.
In a way it is an extension of my spiritual journey — the whole question of self-knowledge and of living an examined life. Clarity, insight, these things are what I value now.
That's a good thing to move beyond. It seems to me though that your perceptions are based on the way you played D&D 30ish years ago and certain computer games, rather than how its played now. Like I've said several times, the game is open and can be expressed however you want. In 5th edition the mechanical ties to alignment were removed and the designers have been moving away from it more and more. Its much more a shorthand descriptor for a roleplaying guide than any sort of essence that gives the "good" people carte blanche to murder all the "evil" people.
Many people simply don't think of alignment the way you do, they like complexity and nuance, they want the antagonists and protagonists to have complex motivations.
Maybe I am a little allergic to certain things, having taken them to excess in the distant past. I’m still watching a bit of Critical Role to get a feel for how the modern game is played. But I notice that they still have the guide to the Planes by alignment, and so on.
I do think that people naturally have an inclination to be good and helpful, it seems to come to us from our time as a baby and the experience of a mother’s love. Some people are very misguided though, and you get nations fighting a war when both sides think they are doing the right thing.
Yeah, planar creatures like angels and devils still are considered as having alignment essences. It isn't completely gone from the game, its that they're moving away from it and it isn't treated the way you're describing it less and less. What is the "so on", you're referring to?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/vmufmt/do_you_still_use_alignment_in_your_game/
There are still some spells and magic items which reference it, such as Protection from Good and Evil. It’s still used to a certain extent by a Cleric’s gods and by Paladins, and seems to recur in world events (evil god arising in the desert, followers of a demon prince building a portal, and so on).
Yeah, I think this topic needs some nuance.
Good and evil, law and chaos aren't completely gone from the game. Heavens are stiil considered good and hells are considered evil. There are also extraplanar realms that represent forces of law and chaos exist. What they're moving away from is these sorts of essences existing in beings on the worldly plane. So orcs aren't inherently and inevitably evil and elves aren't inherently good. Certain groups can have wicked practices and beliefs that may cause people to think of them as evil or good. But that's different from them having wicked practices and beliefs because they're evil. And not every member of that fantasy race is born with those traits.
Like you say people come into conflict from things like misunderstanding or conflict between two valuable things, rather than one side being good and one being evil. That sort of nuanced moral conflict is more interesting to explore.
“The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood,
the mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.”
— Seng T’san, Hsin Hsin Ming
Games clearly aren't a part of the path to enlightenment. Since that is your goal, its probably best to let go and try to understand how they've shaped your mind. Enlightenment isn't my goal.
Are you trying to convince me, or yourself?
Certainly not trying to convince you, that would be foolish since you are happy playing and it is still an important part of your life. I just like this “verse”, it speaks to me while I try to unburden myself.
I thought I had left games behind, then I watched the Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom trailer and got tempted. It convinced me there was still something there, an enthusiasm, a hidden draw, some deeply buried layers. It was in my dreams too, being at a games development company, but also dreams of slaying monsters.
So I decided to do the work to make it conscious, where it came from, the effects, how it worked. Basically what part of me was being drawn to it. Because I felt I wasn’t able to be authentic in the man of spirituality on the one hand and the man of games and fantasy on the other.
I don’t want to banish the aspect of play from my life, play is a core feature of youth. But spirituality is the quest for truth, and being authentic is a part of that, and I don’t think you can be truly spiritual without being authentic, and part of that is shedding as many masks as you can.
I’m just glad I’ve had the space on the forum to write it all down, and that you @person and others have shared and contributed in the journey. Ultimately you can’t separate who you are from who you were, and fantasy, games and D&D have done good things for me too.
I’m not even sure if enlightenment is my goal as such. I just follow my inner compass, which is set to take me to wholeness, health, truth and freedom. Mental health is a big part of that, and consciousness, watching inside is important as well.
It was Socrates who said, “the unexamined life is not worth living”, and one thing that I have found, it is love, kindness and mildness which is at the core of me. Which is why the habit of virtual dungeon crawls no longer fits, and I want to separate my ideas of joy and play from that, by making conscious that which draws me to it.
I haven’t even talked about my fantasy fiction habit yet. Like the D&D playing this was in the distant past during the first 35 years of my life, but I used to read a lot of science fiction and fantasy novels. Traditionally those are stories in which the main character is a hero, there is a good versus evil balance that has been disturbed and the hero has to set things right.
So in a way this was a doubling up of those kinds of ideas, from computer games, D&D and the books. Luckily I read quite widely and so was also exposed to other concepts, but especially in my teens there was a significant quantity of standard fare. I feel it was an influence, but a lesser one than the others.
Like D&D, scifi and fantasy have changed over the years too. The good guy, bad guy dynamic has shifted to much more morally complex stories and characters. They've also tended to become more violent so I'm not sure you'd want to engage. But I do wonder if having some experience of these things you're attracted to where the tropes aren't so simplistic would help point out how these older versions of things have shaped your views?
Or IDK, now that I'm writing this, I'm wondering if instead of good vs evil you're rather referring to protagonist vs antagonist in a story? Maybe that is similar but it seems to me more like a protagonist doesn't have to wear a white hat, they just have to have a challenge to overcome in some way and an antagonist doesn't have to wear a black hat, they just have to represent some sort of obstacle.
I had a bit of clarity, for me the attraction when I was young was to have adventures. Fantasy books are more removed than D&D, with D&D you are more involved. But when you’re a teenager and moving into becoming an adult, adventures are practice for the real world. Then when you encounter a game like D&D you are drawn along, into the game system of character classes, hit points and skill checks.
It’s funny, how insights can liberate, how they can clear out the old and bring space for the new. It’s as if by recognising things, a thought arises, yes that is how it was, and it consigns the old questions and enthusiasms to a different place.
Later in life, the spiritual path tends to change all kinds of things. When people become buddhist their life often takes a turn. For me, it currently means piercing through illusions, shedding what is not real, and coming closer to the truth.
I went onto another Buddhist forum to see what they had to say about video games, there wasn’t much interest but apparently the Karmapa Lama plays various wargames on his Playstation. He sees it as skillfull means, an avenue to release various pent-up feelings.
(See the interview here)
I’m going to let it rest for a while. I sometimes have a tendency to take things too far, a feature of a certain innate enthusiasm and an ability to see further than most. Maybe in a few days I will return to this topic, with more of a balanced view.
Maybe related to this thread, I noticed sports is an interest you maintain. How are games and sports categorized in your mind? What is the distinction between the two, that one interest is to be let go of and the other is maintained?
I do watch a little football from time to time. I enjoy “the beautiful game”, so when the later stages of the Champions League come around or the World Cup is being played I watch.
It’s interesting isn’t it, to see what engages your passion, your enthusiasm. Watching football feels further removed than a game like World of Warcraft, where you are in the midst of the action rather than just watching it on a screen. Football I feel like I can let go of at any moment, it’s just an entertainment.
Computer games I find might absorb me, if I got back into them. I might lose myself in them, in the ideas of analysis, playing well, enjoying the cinematic worlds. D&D is somewhere in between, a good place to view what’s really happening.
I just came across the Milestone levelling method in D&D, and that seems a vast improvement over the old AD&D experience point system. In the old system, your character gained experience for killing monsters which encouraged murder hobo’ing and making characters which were basically killing machines. It never made much sense to me, why you would get better at casting spells or tougher as a tank by sustaining and dealing damage.
The milestone method seems to say, by reaching certain points in the story the players gain levels, regardless of how they got there. So the DM no longer has to track experience points, the players are encouraged to think creatively, everybody wins! Of course you should keep general track of how many xp there are in a dungeon, so that you don’t vastly start changing the pace of the game and you know when it’s appropriate to gain a level.
But a huge improvement overall.
When I played in high school a friend of mine played a thief and whenever we'd be in a city he'd just pickpocket a bunch of people for the xp, it was kind of annoying. One of my games does use xp, but does it pretty loosely. We get xp for non violent strategies just as much as violence, as well as role playing, etc. And its more of a guide for the DM to know when to level us since the campaign is really open and where the milestones should be isn't clear.
Another notion to perhaps leave behind is the video game idea of group composition. Tank, healer, dps. A good mix is still a decent idea but since its such an open game with a human in charge there are lots of ways to overcome challenges.
The thing is, concepts like “levelling without experience points” and “combat in the theatre of the mind” remove large slices of detailed game mechanics which could be power-gamed and leave more room for focus on role play. Which to me feels like a good thing.
The traditional mmorpg group division is only a very rough guide I think in D&D, I’ve never yet played a D&D game in which there was such a thing as a dedicated mmorpg-style tank.
As a DM I always had unintelligent monsters prefer targeting heavily armoured opponents, seeing these as the greater threat. But for intelligent monsters I’d always assume they were aware of the threat posed by magic users, so would often try to take them out.
Another video game habit that I think is tricky is identifying oneself with a character on screen. You’re in control of that character, your vision is centred on that character, so you assume that is you, but in effect you can see the character from some removed distance and that proves it is not you.
What this does is it fosters a loose kind of identification of who you are in the real world, and the fact that you have agency in the game world through this character means there are strong reasons to identify with the character and make it mine.
Hmmm…
It’s curious, all this thinking about video games and D&D has caused a change in me now that I’ve let it settle for a few days. The process of looking deeply at these things has removed a source of pain and trepidation and a series of conditioned habits, and I now feel more relaxed about this, as if the area has become known and better understood and it’s sting removed.
This morning someone on another forum said to me “if you want to play the spiritual game…”
Which made me think, but spirituality is not a game. It is to be approached with sincerity and genuine honesty; you can’t play at it from some imagined position of safety. And that is the key difference with games - they are all play, there is nothing to be risked. If you approach spirituality as a game, likely you will get very little out of it.
I might give the computer game Baldurs Gate 3 a try from the mindful playing perspective. A cousin of mine invited me to a multiplayer playthrough. It has turn-based combat, so there is little chance of getting as caught up in it as something like Diablo 3 which I would definitely avoid. I think it would be fun to play with my cousin, that’s the main draw.
The social aspect has been one my main reasons for getting re involved with TTRPGs. I've been looking at BG3 too, I haven't played a large scale video game like that for maybe a decade, Dragon Age: Origins, but I'd have to upgrade and get a new computer. Which I've been wanting to do, its just the cost, so we'll see.
Yeah, the last time I played a big game was Mass Effect 3 also about a decade ago. But I have a reasonably up to date computer, an M1 iMac, and there is a Mac native version of Baldurs Gate 3 in the works, so it should all work out.
BG3 NewBuddhist multiplayer? I'm in!!!
A funny take on xp leveling from Brendan Lee Mulligan talking to a couple other popular streaming GMs
https://youtube.com/shorts/TuH1pw3ScA0
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xrA9n7ywinA
I think that letting go of something requires practice. Letting go of thought is the best practice, because thought precedes pretty much everything.
If you want to stop gaming, and your heart is in it, then just stop. There's nothing really wrong with gaming, and there's no need to make it into some sort of epic struggle out of it. Just let it go. It won't bring you any closer to enlightenment, really, but it's good practice :-).
I think that meditation is an experiential illumination that shows that.....
any attachment that is addressed, without simply substituting that said attachment for another attachment, is in itself a movement along the path towards suffering's cessation.
I think that for me the idea of games had gone so deep that it took several attempts to really let go of it. It kind of embeds itself as an ingrained habit, the remnants of an addiction. Games are thought conditioning, with many attractive aspects and some repulsive ones.
Finding those kind of conditionings in your mental make-up is part of the process of self knowledge which is part of the spiritual path; some people have it with love and sex, many people with thoughts. You might say that these things have more to do with psychology than dharma, but it’s philosophy as well.
As Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living.
I think you and I are talking about two different things. Fair enough.
Everyday I observe people on their devices ( laptops, tablets, phones) absorbed in the game, mind against machine, or mind against mind, a strong desire to win the dopamine rush battle...
I'm not an online, gamer...however I do enter some online competitions.... for example I've just finished playing an Air NZ air points competitions where you have to find the location from the clue given, and be in the draw to win air points, before this air points competition I hadn't entered an online competitions for years (I'm an air points member and they send out an update each month, this is how I found out about the competition)....
I have no interest in playing other kinds of online games...I guess I'm lucky in this sense...
One thing I noticed while watching a Let’s Play video of Baldur’s Gate 3 was that after a while I started feeling a certain pressure to “complete things”, that I wanted to progress faster and faster. Even just from watching the video… it’s like many of the interactions in the game are not honestly human, but are aimed towards making the player accept quests and complete quests.
The Mac version of the game is not out until later this month, so I’m spending a little time watching a few videos and getting familiar with the game.
That aspect of video games is a big part of the reason I don't play them anymore. I get really addicted to that sort of thinking. When I was younger a "fun" activity for me was to empty the penny jar and count them all up, making neat little stacks of ten. Tedious, repetitive activities that have an end goal fit a rut in my brain.
Yes, on a computer game these things become like an automatism, they tap into the same part of the mind as is driving a car, and some games can become like a complex dance of buttons and clicks. World of Warcraft was like that for me, it was a big part of what drove the addiction.
Which is part of why I am having a close look at Baldur’s Gate 3 before getting involved. I think the level of difficulty is quite well pitched, you need to take account of line of sight and resistances in the tougher fights, and make sure you stock up on healing potions and speed potions. Which means you have to think, and it’s less likely to become automatic.