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Take it from a smoker, it doesn't. Take it from someone in a unit full of smokers, it doesn't. Raise the price of tobacco, and other luxuries take the hit. If they made it illegal outright, I would quit then, but until it is completely impossible for me to obtain my cigarettes, I will probably continue to smoke, with the frequent attempt to quit.
Did anyone watch the start of the Olympic torch relay? I commend the fella who ran up the podium with his 'Free Tibet' banner while the speech was going-on.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2008
Actually, the point of my post was to highlight what a massive amount of coverage, and importance the BBC has attached to the situation in Tibet.... not only is it deemed less important than the cost of children's birthday parties..... it didn't even rate a mention.....:mad:
I watched the morning news (two hour version) yesterday and it was - kids birthday parties, stopping smokers SEEING the packets, harsher sentences for gun crime ... oh and by the way the violence is still continuing in Tibet. And now it's over to Carol for the weather.
No, pally, it's not ok, I'm hooked hard, and can't quit cold turkey.
As for Tibet, maybe China will want to talk now. If not, give it a few more weeks. It's impossible to keep all the foreign media out, eventually something major will happen that will embarrass China into talks with the Tibetans.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2008
You may be right there Bushi... at least, I hope you are... sarkozy is creating a bit of a stink with his UK visit... trying to see why Gordon Brown hasn't threatened a boycott, and sayinghe himself is waiting for a positive response from china with regard to talks with HH the DL, before deciding whether France will boycott the opening ceremony....
At least Bush has finally gotten into the act - and in a big way! He actually called the Chinese prez on the phone and chewed him out. A little late, but better than nada. Maybe the commie creep will get the message that he'd better slack off.
Bushi - I don't know if it'll help at all, but I once heard a Tibetan lama say that tobacco was planted here by a demon (female variety) just to ensnare and cause problems for us sentient beings. Now, I know we're much too modern and sophisticated to believe in demons, but there it is for what it's worth. It's a difficult addiction to beat. My dad never did, though he didn't smoke much and it didn't kill him - just old age did. But it is possible, especially with those patches or whatever which apparently help a lot. I never started, thank Buddha!
Heh, I'm a bit of a Francophile, though I've always thought that Sarkozy kinda no longer portrayed France as the counter-balance to America with his policies and visits...
China, though, will probably insist on once more a 'one-China policy' blah and blah which actually isn't too bad, but depending on how you interpret it, things could be far from ideal. Anyway in Taiwan now with Ma elected, China will need to soften their stance a little to cooperate with the various 'separatists' they label.
Dudjom Rinpoche was perhaps the preeminent Nyingma lama and scholar of the 20th Century. While he may talk about things in a way we're not used to hearing them, he was a living Buddha. In fact, it is prophesied that he will be the 1002nd Buddha of this fortunate eon. So I offer it with my prayers that you can stop smoking and breathe again!
As far as smoking goes, the Army pays for everything to help me quit, so I'm going to contact Smoking Cessation when I have the time. Hopefully, I won't pull the same stunt I did after basic, and stay quit this time. I honestly thought I was deploying right after getting to Ft. Carson. ROFLMAO, I have been lucky in that regard, but I'm paying a heavy price for my assumption. I may never deploy and there are In Calls for the job I really want, so if I don't get stop-lossed this summer, there's no reason to hang around anymore. But, I'm going to try and quit smoking first.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Not sure what In Calls are, though it sounds like someone else may have their sights on the job that Bushi wants, but stop-loss is the wonderful policy that the US military instituted to cover their enlistment shortfalls by involuntarily extending soldiers' service and sending them back to (or keeping them in) Iraq or Afganistan beyond their normal separation dates, possibly for a year or longer. Nice, huh?
I quit smoking 6 years ago. It was difficult, but I can actually walk up a hill without feeling like I'm out of breath. I am glad I did it. Don't give up. Its worth the effort.
Pally got the stop-loss part, which there is one limitation too, pally, I signed a contract that only obligated me to eight years service, from the time I signed my original contract. So, if someone is at that eight year point, and has no further obligation, regardless of where they are, they do have to be out processed from the military by that time. I've heard of Officers signing for lifetime recalls, but that would be the only exception.
Fede, In Calls means there is a shortage in the job I want, so unless there is an In Call for my job, I can easily reclassify into that job. In Calls are also good for a fiscal quarter, so I'm good to get that job in my contract by May. Once a contract is signed, the Army is obligated to abide by the terms of it, or there is no Uniform Code of Military Justice by reason of breach of contract. The only way to get out of the contract is for me to not qualify for the job I want, which I do.
I see that this intelligent and passionate thread has turned to smoking.
My question is what does the Bush Administration smoke, marijuana or hashish?
On last Sunday's This Week With George Stephanopoulos, A senior adviser to Bresident Push referred to Tibet as Nepal at least five times. I happened to catch the interview mid-way through. I was working at the home and that channel happened to be on while I was in a certain room. I do not know what possessed Mr. Stephanopoulos to let the man continue with the same mistake again and again, but I'm glad he did. You'd think the president would at least allow his spokesmen to watch TV or read the newspapers a couple of times a week.
I have a big test coming up soon, and when I get time I'm gonna go online and watch the segment in its entirety. What surprises me most about this is that I am not embarrassed, but rather delighted that the arrogance and stupidity of the bastard regime in Washington is being broadcast so well. Does that make me a bad American, or someone just ready for a change, for Hillary?
Bresident Push, good one Nirvana. You're not the only one ready for change. Actually, I'm ready for the next president to not have a Congressional Consensus for the first six years of his/her term. So, if you vote Rep. for Pres, vote Dem for Congress, and vice versa.
Just shows the outright, blatant stupidity of the Bush administration. Also shows the importance they place on human rights. How can we complain about China?
Very interesting article, Simon. It seems the cracks are beginning to appear in the Chinese monolith. They're basically in a position where they need international approval and acceptance but can't bear the scrutiny that comes with it. Not a good position to be in. It's very similar to the state the Soviet Union was in the last few years of its existence.
Yes, and that's why I worry. The good side is that the US is determined to abide by the Law of Land Warfare, and other such international agreements. The bad side is that we don't do enough to help poorer nations, and when we do try to help, our leadership considers the military to be the best option.
Yes, and that's why I worry. The good side is that the US is determined to abide by the Law of Land Warfare, and other such international agreements. The bad side is that we don't do enough to help poorer nations, and when we do try to help, our leadership considers the military to be the best option.
Your optimism is good, Bushi, but I must say that, from the distance of Europe, it does not appear that the partners in the Afghan and Iraq invasions took a deliberate decision not to observe the international agreements on the treatment of prisoners and avoidance of civilian casualties. We have sown the wind and are reaping the whirlwind.
Not just the partners. US leaders sat down and not only okayed the torture of prisoners, but actually determined which torture techniques, such as water boarding, to use and for how many times they could use them. The leader of this clique? Condoleeza Rice, currently Secretary of State, then National Security Director. It's been documented.
Palzang
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2008
You know, it's an awful exercise, but I somehow can't stop doing it....
I imagine the people condoning or okay-ing these practises being subjected to it themselves.... just to see whether once done, they might just change their minds...
It's horrendous.....
Not just the partners. US leaders sat down and not only okayed the torture of prisoners, but actually determined which torture techniques, such as water boarding, to use and for how many times they could use them. The leader of this clique? Condoleeza Rice, currently Secretary of State, then National Security Director. It's been documented.
Palzang
This simply goes to strengthen my belief that there should be a "War Crimes and Reconciliation Tribunal" after every war at which the leaders of each side would be in the dock Dr Rice among many others may have charges to answer and it is vital that we do not get stuck in personalities. There are bigger lessons to (re-)learn. The aspirations and aims of an international oversight authority may have failed again but I truly believe that the need for something similar is demonstrable.
At least the personnel at Abu Grhaib are getting what they deserve. There is a world of difference between discomfort and inflicting physical pain or severely degrading a prisoner.
As for waterboarding, I would never personally want to go through such a thing, but when you have soldiers and innocent civilians dying, you try to gather information however possible, within reasonable limits.
Of course, it helps that the insurgency has been doing enough damage to itself lately. We should be past the point of needing to waterboard and such by now, as the people of Iraq are providing us with a lot of intel.
At least the personnel at Abu Grhaib are getting what they deserve. There is a world of difference between discomfort and inflicting physical pain or severely degrading a prisoner.
As for waterboarding, I would never personally want to go through such a thing, but when you have soldiers and innocent civilians dying, you try to gather information however possible, within reasonable limits.
Of course, it helps that the insurgency has been doing enough damage to itself lately. We should be past the point of needing to waterboard and such by now, as the people of Iraq are providing us with a lot of intel.
With the deepest respect, Bushinoki, "waterboarding" has been deemed torture and, thus, inexcusable and a criminal act. You may not have noticed that, in a statement about Tunisia, the U.S. State Department described it as 'torture'. This was in 2005/6, so it's not old but current.
The use of torture on prisoners has made the whole business of invasion in Afghanistan and Iraq, irrespective of any precipitating reason for miulitary action, an exercise in illegality.
I have no doubt, however, that there will never be War Crimes tribunals to punish the high officials responsible for the policy.
On a purely logical level, torture, including waterboarding, has been proven over and over to be a futile endeavor because these prisoners don't have any information to give, and if they do, no amount of torture will get it out of them. They've been too indoctrinated in the belief of the glory of the martyr. In these cases torture is a weapon of vengeance, not the gathering of intel.
On a purely logical level, torture, including waterboarding, has been proven over and over to be a futile endeavor because these prisoners don't have any information to give, and if they do, no amount of torture will get it out of them. They've been too indoctrinated in the belief of the glory of the martyr. In these cases torture is a weapon of vengeance, not the gathering of intel.
Of course you are right, Boo. For those who have no ethical sense, they must surely be persuaded by the poor quality of information and the risk of creating 'martyrs'. Just look at how the churches celebrate their martyrs. The victims of German interrogation techniques among the resistance fighters (e.g. Violette Szabo, etc.) are praised as heroes as are those Tibetans so treated by the Chinese. The decision by our respective governments to use torture (however they may have wriggled with the definition) has put them on the same level as these nations whose 'human rights' record we have the audacity to criticise.
Personally, however, I do not judge torture by its outcome but by the intention to inflict unbearable suffering.
I deal in Justice, not vengeance. If I'm not getting any new information out of someone, I will hand them over to their nations judiciary to be tried and punished.
As for outcome v. intent, I favor a little of both. I will never condone any act of interrogation which would inflict physical pain, lasting scars, or degrade and humiliate another human being. That pretty much bars almost all torture techniques. However leaving someone in a cell for a week with no human contact, providing food through a small opening in the door, and having the shower/latrine right there, I'll gladly use that if it means I'm going to learn something about my enemy.
I deal in Justice, not vengeance. If I'm not getting any new information out of someone, I will hand them over to their nations judiciary to be tried and punished.
As for outcome v. intent, I favor a little of both. I will never condone any act of interrogation which would inflict physical pain, lasting scars, or degrade and humiliate another human being. That pretty much bars almost all torture techniques. However leaving someone in a cell for a week with no human contact, providing food through a small opening in the door, and having the shower/latrine right there, I'll gladly use that if it means I'm going to learn something about my enemy.
In effect, Bushi, you favour psychological torture over the physical? Do you also favour this in domestic police investigations too?
Simon, to a small degree. The main difference is whether or not another life is on the line. If someone isn't in danger, there's no point. But if there's a chance that someone could be saved by it, then by all means. By that litmus, I would be limiting the use of such interrogation tactics to a handful of cases overall, which is the main difference in a military operation and civilian police work. Such tactics would rarely if ever have a place in police work, but when it comes to shutting down terrorist cells, every one shut down is lives saved, both ours and the innocent civilians of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Exactly. What is lost in such an outlook is the karmic seeds that one is planting when carrying out such extreme measures against another human being, no matter how despicable. Do you really think you can create the causes of peace by planting such horrific seeds? If you do, then I suggest you go back and restudy the teachings on karma until you actually understand them.
I had an interesting conversation with the manager of the Westonbirt Arboretum Forest Shop yesterday. They have a sale on, of clothes which are made in China. I asked to see the manager and told him of my discomfort at so much Chinese product in his shop at this time. He agreed with me but said that the decision came from "higher up" in the Forestry Commission food-chain (he gave me the email address so a note has gone off to them).
It turned out that, like many of us, he had joined the boycott of South African produce during the apartheid years and understood where I was coming from. At the same time, he argued (as so many commentators and sports people do) that the Olympics should be above politics. When I laughed at the idea, he was puzzled. I pointed out the extent of national political capital invested in securing the Games and the 'prestige' that accrues. When I said that it was my opinion that each Games was politicised from the outset, he thought for a bit and said that he hadn't seen it like that. In fact, he agreed to join me in my personal boycott although he couldn't remove Chinese goods from the shop. Instead, he has put a sign by the stuff in question which simply says "Made in China".
I am truly sick of the cant that suggests that the Olympic Games are anything more than a very expensive exercise in 'national pride'. Why else would Beijing or Salt Lake City 'cheat' to get them?
The days have gone when an individual could enter for the joy of their sport as my old rowing coach did. He won the 1500 metres in 1912, having been turned down by the British team, as an individual entrant. By the time I knew him, in the '60s, he was already disgusted by the politicking and professionalising of the Games, although it was a great thrill for me to be allowed to hold his gold medal, won half a century earlier.
These Games were sure to be political from the moment the IOC 'awarded' them to China. If sportsmen and women want to take part, they should understand that it is, inevitably, a political act. I should love to see all those who object to China's actions in Tibet and other 'autonomous regions' wearing a Tibetan flag as part of their uniform.
You're absolutely right, Simon. The idea that the games aren't political is a joke. It's big business and national pride all rolled into one. The athletes are just proles serving the master. It's kind of like college sports in the US. Both football and basketball are huge industries, though the players (supposedly) don't share in the spoils. They do, however, compete for extraordinarily lucrative professional contracts, the size of which is a national embarassment. We can't pay our teachers, but we can lavish millions on some athlete who can barely write his name. That's our priorities!
Comments
Palzang
http://blog.studentsforafreetibet.org/games/yingsel1/
Did anyone watch the start of the Olympic torch relay? I commend the fella who ran up the podium with his 'Free Tibet' banner while the speech was going-on.
I watched the morning news (two hour version) yesterday and it was - kids birthday parties, stopping smokers SEEING the packets, harsher sentences for gun crime ... oh and by the way the violence is still continuing in Tibet. And now it's over to Carol for the weather.
As for Tibet, maybe China will want to talk now. If not, give it a few more weeks. It's impossible to keep all the foreign media out, eventually something major will happen that will embarrass China into talks with the Tibetans.
Bushi - I don't know if it'll help at all, but I once heard a Tibetan lama say that tobacco was planted here by a demon (female variety) just to ensnare and cause problems for us sentient beings. Now, I know we're much too modern and sophisticated to believe in demons, but there it is for what it's worth. It's a difficult addiction to beat. My dad never did, though he didn't smoke much and it didn't kill him - just old age did. But it is possible, especially with those patches or whatever which apparently help a lot. I never started, thank Buddha!
Palzang
Heh, I'm a bit of a Francophile, though I've always thought that Sarkozy kinda no longer portrayed France as the counter-balance to America with his policies and visits...
China, though, will probably insist on once more a 'one-China policy' blah and blah which actually isn't too bad, but depending on how you interpret it, things could be far from ideal. Anyway in Taiwan now with Ma elected, China will need to soften their stance a little to cooperate with the various 'separatists' they label.
Dudjom Rinpoche was perhaps the preeminent Nyingma lama and scholar of the 20th Century. While he may talk about things in a way we're not used to hearing them, he was a living Buddha. In fact, it is prophesied that he will be the 1002nd Buddha of this fortunate eon. So I offer it with my prayers that you can stop smoking and breathe again!
Palzang
This is obviously military-speek fer sumphin'....
Palzang
Fede, In Calls means there is a shortage in the job I want, so unless there is an In Call for my job, I can easily reclassify into that job. In Calls are also good for a fiscal quarter, so I'm good to get that job in my contract by May. Once a contract is signed, the Army is obligated to abide by the terms of it, or there is no Uniform Code of Military Justice by reason of breach of contract. The only way to get out of the contract is for me to not qualify for the job I want, which I do.
Palzang
Undercover in Tibet
My question is what does the Bush Administration smoke, marijuana or hashish?
On last Sunday's This Week With George Stephanopoulos, A senior adviser to Bresident Push referred to Tibet as Nepal at least five times. I happened to catch the interview mid-way through. I was working at the home and that channel happened to be on while I was in a certain room. I do not know what possessed Mr. Stephanopoulos to let the man continue with the same mistake again and again, but I'm glad he did. You'd think the president would at least allow his spokesmen to watch TV or read the newspapers a couple of times a week.
I have a big test coming up soon, and when I get time I'm gonna go online and watch the segment in its entirety. What surprises me most about this is that I am not embarrassed, but rather delighted that the arrogance and stupidity of the bastard regime in Washington is being broadcast so well. Does that make me a bad American, or someone just ready for a change, for Hillary?
Hurray for ABC news!!!
Palzang
Palzang
I can't yet find an audio on NR Push's National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, but here is the ABC News plug:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/hadley-on-olymp.html
FYB (BEMUSEMENT)
I think Mr Stephanopoulos was right not to correct. I like all the thusses:
SICK, SICK, SICK!
Stratfor article
Palzang
Pally, hopefully the US can put itself in a better position when our time comes.
Palzang
Your optimism is good, Bushi, but I must say that, from the distance of Europe, it does not appear that the partners in the Afghan and Iraq invasions took a deliberate decision not to observe the international agreements on the treatment of prisoners and avoidance of civilian casualties. We have sown the wind and are reaping the whirlwind.
Palzang
I imagine the people condoning or okay-ing these practises being subjected to it themselves.... just to see whether once done, they might just change their minds...
It's horrendous.....
This simply goes to strengthen my belief that there should be a "War Crimes and Reconciliation Tribunal" after every war at which the leaders of each side would be in the dock Dr Rice among many others may have charges to answer and it is vital that we do not get stuck in personalities. There are bigger lessons to (re-)learn. The aspirations and aims of an international oversight authority may have failed again but I truly believe that the need for something similar is demonstrable.
As for waterboarding, I would never personally want to go through such a thing, but when you have soldiers and innocent civilians dying, you try to gather information however possible, within reasonable limits.
Of course, it helps that the insurgency has been doing enough damage to itself lately. We should be past the point of needing to waterboard and such by now, as the people of Iraq are providing us with a lot of intel.
With the deepest respect, Bushinoki, "waterboarding" has been deemed torture and, thus, inexcusable and a criminal act. You may not have noticed that, in a statement about Tunisia, the U.S. State Department described it as 'torture'. This was in 2005/6, so it's not old but current.
see:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61700.htm
The use of torture on prisoners has made the whole business of invasion in Afghanistan and Iraq, irrespective of any precipitating reason for miulitary action, an exercise in illegality.
I have no doubt, however, that there will never be War Crimes tribunals to punish the high officials responsible for the policy.
Of course you are right, Boo. For those who have no ethical sense, they must surely be persuaded by the poor quality of information and the risk of creating 'martyrs'. Just look at how the churches celebrate their martyrs. The victims of German interrogation techniques among the resistance fighters (e.g. Violette Szabo, etc.) are praised as heroes as are those Tibetans so treated by the Chinese. The decision by our respective governments to use torture (however they may have wriggled with the definition) has put them on the same level as these nations whose 'human rights' record we have the audacity to criticise.
Personally, however, I do not judge torture by its outcome but by the intention to inflict unbearable suffering.
As for outcome v. intent, I favor a little of both. I will never condone any act of interrogation which would inflict physical pain, lasting scars, or degrade and humiliate another human being. That pretty much bars almost all torture techniques. However leaving someone in a cell for a week with no human contact, providing food through a small opening in the door, and having the shower/latrine right there, I'll gladly use that if it means I'm going to learn something about my enemy.
In effect, Bushi, you favour psychological torture over the physical? Do you also favour this in domestic police investigations too?
Palzang
..which is such a dangerous notion, isn't it. It can be used to justify the worst excesses.
Palzang
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm
I got a kick out of this!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7366500.stm
Palzang
It turned out that, like many of us, he had joined the boycott of South African produce during the apartheid years and understood where I was coming from. At the same time, he argued (as so many commentators and sports people do) that the Olympics should be above politics. When I laughed at the idea, he was puzzled. I pointed out the extent of national political capital invested in securing the Games and the 'prestige' that accrues. When I said that it was my opinion that each Games was politicised from the outset, he thought for a bit and said that he hadn't seen it like that. In fact, he agreed to join me in my personal boycott although he couldn't remove Chinese goods from the shop. Instead, he has put a sign by the stuff in question which simply says "Made in China".
I am truly sick of the cant that suggests that the Olympic Games are anything more than a very expensive exercise in 'national pride'. Why else would Beijing or Salt Lake City 'cheat' to get them?
The days have gone when an individual could enter for the joy of their sport as my old rowing coach did. He won the 1500 metres in 1912, having been turned down by the British team, as an individual entrant. By the time I knew him, in the '60s, he was already disgusted by the politicking and professionalising of the Games, although it was a great thrill for me to be allowed to hold his gold medal, won half a century earlier.
These Games were sure to be political from the moment the IOC 'awarded' them to China. If sportsmen and women want to take part, they should understand that it is, inevitably, a political act. I should love to see all those who object to China's actions in Tibet and other 'autonomous regions' wearing a Tibetan flag as part of their uniform.
Palzang