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this [judgemental] attitude arises from human habit rather than from the spiritual family
Indeed my friend.
Regardless of who we are or not, we should help each other out of the water.
And it is also advisable to not abandon the raft before the stream, and to check if it has holes in them.
For if all are in the water, there is no one to help you out.
I have a Lutheran Pastor who is a dear and close friend. We have spent hundreds of hours discussing the nature of religion. It is his (and my) opinion that the early writings were meant as spiritual lessons for an illiterate populace, they were meant to be a guide - never to be taken literally.
1 Why is it that there are so many people who, being, drawn to Buddhism, are those who have had bad experiences with other religions in the past? Does this seem to be you?
2 What is your refuge?
3 Are you simply taking "refuge" in Buddhism because Christianity condemned your lifestyle or life choices?
4 Is that why you're here?
-bf
1 - I didn't have any religion before I found Buddhism.
I don't think you can make an umlaut on a PC. You can in Word by hitting CTRL+Shift+: and then the letter you want the umlaut over, but it doesn't work in the browser. Of course, you could make it in Word and then copy it into the browser...
Palzang
I don't know of an exact method for adding one to any character, but you can always look it up in the character map (start -> all programs -> accessories -> system tools) and find the one you need and then find the keystroke for it.
For example, with Pema's name you would use Alt+0246 which gives you ö
Why is it that there are so many people who, being, drawn to Buddhism, are those who have had bad experiences with other religions in the past?
Does this seem to be you?
What is your refuge?
Are you simply taking "refuge" in Buddhism because Christianity condemned your lifestyle or life choices?
Is that why you're here?
-bf
Speaking for myself [for whom else could I speak for?] I must state simply that I left Christianity when I was 16 because I found, after having studied the Bible at considerable length, that I could no longer believe in any of its tenents. You cannot have an Omnibenevolent [all-good] deity that sends people to eternal torture for picking the "wrong" religion. Between 16 and 29 I was a pretty inflexable atheist, and I was fortunate enough to discover the Buddha's Dharma when I took a course in Eastern Religion here in Stockton, California (Delta College).
I have what I like to think is a rational/scientific mind, and putting it bluntly, the teachings of the Buddha made sense. A religion without a god and nothing to worship? Four Noble Truths that happen to be true? Three Marks of Existance that actually support reality even at the quantum level? Compassion [Metta] and Wisdom [Prajna] are how one liberates ones self from self...and all existance?
Validus - that sums it up for me too. I was also brought up in a (very loving) Christian family. I have no problem with Christianity but do not attend church regularly.
I would not describe myself as a Buddhist. But have been looking for some guidance with my current situation (nothing drastic, just real life - young children, ageing parents etc) and buddhism seems to be the way to go.
Speaking for myself [for whom else could I speak for?] I must state simply that I left Christianity when I was 16 because I found, after having studied the Bible at considerable length, that I could no longer believe in any of its tenents. You cannot have an Omnibenevolent [all-good] deity that sends people to eternal torture for picking the "wrong" religion. Between 16 and 29 I was a pretty inflexable atheist, and I was fortunate enough to discover the Buddha's Dharma when I took a course in Eastern Religion here in Stockton, California (Delta College).
I have what I like to think is a rational/scientific mind, and putting it bluntly, the teachings of the Buddha made sense. A religion without a god and nothing to worship? Four Noble Truths that happen to be true? Three Marks of Existance that actually support reality even at the quantum level? Compassion [Metta] and Wisdom [Prajna] are how one liberates ones self from self...and all existance?
-sign me up!
I am not sure if I have had the chance to say welcome to New Buddhist, so welcome! Your post moves me as I see much of myself in what you write. I share some of your sentiment toward Christianity and its teachings although my view has changed considerably over the years. I was raised in a Christian home and was always aware of inconsistencies in the Bible’s teachings, but it was blasphemy to talk about them in my house. My parents were raised to believe that the Holy Bible was the literal, unwavering, perfect "Word of God" and there was no discussing it. As I got older, I began to research the Bible and eventually became enraged at what I was taught as a child. I felt cheated and eventually told my parents that I believed the whole thing was a monumental lie and a waste of time. I found out some years later that doing that had caused them considerable emotional pain as I had shown no consideration and compassion for their own beliefs. I was, as you say, an inflexible atheist.
As time has passed and I have had the opportunity to read the Dhamma and explore a new path of existence, I have come to realize that while it has many inconsistencies and IMHO cannot be taken for a literal account of historical events, the Christian Bible does, at times, have some good philosophical teachings to guide people through their lives. I no longer think it is fair to discount the entire book just as I feel that it makes no sense to discount all the teachings of the Buddha because of one or two passages I may disagree with, not understand, or find inconsistent with other teachings. I am grateful for the teachings of the Buddha and nowadays I try to incorporate the fundamental aspects of Buddhism into my daily life. I am empathetic to the religious people in the world and the passion that they feel for their beliefs. It does amazing things, this Dhamma.
It's funny how a little perspective makes things look different, don't you agree? I've often thought how very different Christianity would be if each of the 4 Gospels and the letters of Paul each began with the words "Thus have I heard..."
As Buddhists I think we often overlook the luxery of having those four beautiful words at the beginning of each sutra/sutta. Why? Because if something seems amise we (meaning Buddhists) have the ability to say, "well- I guess the guy that wrote this down didn't hear it right, did he?" Thus we don't ever have to be shakled to a literal understanding of the writings which form the basis of most of the various Buddhist traditions & schools.
But, yes- I was what I now call a "Fundamentalist Atheist" (There is no God and I am his prophet!). The anger you mentioned was all too familiar to me, and I have been so happy these last 11 years to have let it go. While there are certainly things within monotheism that should be challenged in a diplomatic way, anger only breeds more anger and this ultimately helps no one.
This is an interesting thread and I, for one, am very happy to see it resurrected. It's notable, though, how this thread got into some really interesting ground from about the 12th post to about the 40th or so —not unsympathetic to your remarks here, but not in complete agreement either.
Validus, Nomad, and Hinny, you might want to look back. Don't worry. I only wrote one sentence —one expressing eagerness for a reply to an interesting exchange.
I haven't until now contributed anything personal to this thread, as I didn't/don't consider myself quite Buddhist enough "yet." I'm really more Vedantist, as was my guru. However, that said, Buddhism is capable of a no-nonsense, helpful approach which inspires me greatly and deeply. I am directed by the Noble Eightfold Path and, in truth, am more interested in liberation than in denominational lines. Perhaps that's why I haven't posted on this thread until now, but have followed it closely.
However, I cannot truly say that I no longer believe in any Christian tenets; yet I do not find myself particularly moved by them, either. What moves me is the art and music and the silent devotions, the liturgies, etc. Yet I cannot say for sure that they're not ever idolatries, though. I am a bundle of contradictions. On the one hand, some Christian "piety" often turns me off, but on the other hand, almost daily I pray with people and also gladly accept all their prayers with grace. I guess my job in nursing may have made me more loving and accepting. (I put "piety" in quotes, as the kind of religious expression I'm referring to is not particularly humble about the truth of one's perspective and is often loud and seemingly insincere.)
I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here at all. I'm not a do-gooder, but rather a guy who really loves people and enjoys sharing the joy of religious "enthusiasm" with my neighbors. We human beings, I believe, have a faculty of worship that needs to be expressed in some sort of communal way. Our ancestors no doubt worshiped in caves and heard glorious echoings that transported them to heavenly spheres. I feel this particularly in Russian Orthodox churches and great cathedrals and at High Mass. It's the Beauty of Purpose or either the Purpose of Beauty —not the tenets— that inspire.
How, in this modern, very technical world, is it possible to continue to subscribe to all the tenets of the Christian religion? One simply cannot take every word literally. Moreover, the pace at which we move about makes many of the sacramental elements so very hard to pull off sucessfully. Holy Communion, for example, is not a part of most growing churches' practice; nor has it been for a long time.
No religion has all the answers; but questions, I believe, are more important. The questions that Buddhism addresses comprise all the fundamental ethical questions, I think. How can anyone go far wrong following the Noble Eightfold Path?
It is unfortunate that historically bad translations of the first three of the Four Noble Truths have formed clouds that still mentally afflict true understanding of Buddhism in the world. This, too, will pass. It is my hope that I will grow to be a better Buddhist while becoming a better Christian and Vedantist too.
I hope, too, that all my brothers and sisters of the world will also grow to be better, healthier, and happier.
How, in this modern, very technical world, is it possible to continue to subscribe to all the tenets of the Christian religion? One simply cannot take every word literally. Moreover, the pace at which we move about makes many of the sacramental elements so very hard to pull off sucessfully. Holy Communion, for example, is not a part of most growing churches' practice; nor has it been for a long time.
No religion has all the answers; but questions, I believe, are more important. The questions that Buddhism addresses comprise all the fundamental ethical questions, I think. How can anyone go far wrong following the Noble Eightfold Path?
It is unfortunate that historically bad translations of the first three of the Four Noble Truths have formed clouds that still mentally afflict true understanding of Buddhism in the world. This, too, will pass. It is my hope that I will grow to be a better Buddhist while becoming a better Christian and Vedantist too.
I hope, too, that all my brothers and sisters of the world will also grow to be better, healthier, and happier.
It seems to me that religion in the East and religion in the West have certain notable differences that seem worth mentioning in the context of this discussion. It seems to me that in the West, religion (and here I mean Judaism, Christianity and Islam) seems to have the primary purpose of providing meaning. This "meaning" is bound up completely in supernatural beliefs like the soul, salvation through a savior, afterlives, temptations from demonic agencies, etc.
Eastern thought seems primarily concerned with how to cope with this difficult situation we call "living". Lao Tsu asked, "what is the way?" Confucious [Kung Fu-tsu] asked,"what is the will of Heaven(Tsien)?" Buddha asked, "why do we suffer?"
As you said, Nirvana, no religion has all the answers. The problem is that many people believe that their religion does. Certainty rooted in speculation is more dangerous then a neglected loaded missle battery.
Myself, I'm no longer interested in finding all the "answers", whatever that even means. If I can manifest wisdom and compassion enough to make the world even slightly better then it already is I'll have done my job.
Amen to that, brother. The only really important thing is not who's "right", but how each of us can best express love and compassion for our fellow sentient beings to help them on their path.
Myself, I'm no longer interested in finding all the "answers", whatever that even means. If I can manifest wisdom and compassion enough to make the world even slightly better then it already is I'll have done my job.
I became Buddhist because even after being immersed in Christianity, I couldn't convince myself to actually believe all these things that I was being told. After looking into Buddhism I realized it resonated with the beliefs I already had, and it just made SENSE.
(I've seen some very important historical monuments for both, and still decided to switch. Though I haven't completely separated from the Church - I'm going to do some more reading and thinking before that.)
I am Buddhist becauser my Karma put me in the position to become one. I believe I was Buddhist in anothetr life. It also affords me a chance to try to purify my negative karma. It all makes sense.
Buddhafoot,
You make these statements and then are silent. Why? Why make statements that can be considered "baiting" and then hide?
I used to love to hear from you on the posts then due to my own insecurities and doubts, stopped coming for a while. This was the first post of yours that I read and was heartbroken as you were one of the people that I understood and "got". I remember your posts about not going off on someone almost running your child over and how you dealt with it. I hope you are well and find the peace you are looking for. You are still in my thoughts.
I read a story about monkey traps in Asia. A slot is cut in a coconut just big enough for the monkey to get his hand inside but not big enough for him to pull it out while it's clenched. People attempting to trap the monkey put something inside the coconut the monkey wants. Once his hand is inside the monkey will not pull his hand out. Physically of course it would be easy if he just let go of the contents. His attachment and desire create the trap.
After reading this story a lot of things made more sense to me. I was hooked.
I eventually chose to seek an internal peace and joy rather than expecting an external saviour to provide it for me.
Yeshe,
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do know that when I lay around and wait for others to fix me, nothing happens. Be it a "higher power" or a fellow human being. Thanks for the reminder.
When I was a child family members and friends of theirs took me to just about every kind of Christian mass/service you can think of, none of it made any sense to me.
I too, realized that to be truly happy it must come from within. Buddhism has made me a very happy person for many years.
Buddhafoot,
You make these statements and then are silent. Why? Why make statements that can be considered "baiting" and then hide?
I used to love to hear from you on the posts then due to my own insecurities and doubts, stopped coming for a while. This was the first post of yours that I read and was heartbroken as you were one of the people that I understood and "got". I remember your posts about not going off on someone almost running your child over and how you dealt with it. I hope you are well and find the peace you are looking for. You are still in my thoughts.
Jerry
Hey... I'm still here.
What's wrong with baiting and hiding? Works great for me.
I'm actually surprised anyone "gets" me though. "Get" me? Like at the fair? "Hey kids!, knock the bottles down and get a buddhafoot!"
We're both a lightbulb short of a marquee. Probably more. That's why I get your humor. I was a bit taken aback when I read it. So what if you're a loser, as long as you're having fun doing it!
I left my Christian church because I simply could not believe in all that it taught on a practical and spiritual level. 8 years since then I have studied many religions and thought much about my own beliefs. My beliefs are most consistent with mahayana Zen buddhism so I use this school of thought as my main spiritual guide. I find great refuge and much understanding from what the Buddha taught. I am somewhat hesitant to call myself a Buddhist as it is a matter of great importance to me and I want to be sure this is the path I will be on for the rest of my life before I maje any claim.
Dropping my religion was very hard, I lost and damaged many great friendships due to my confusion in my beliefs and I will not make that mistake again so for now I will take refuge in what I am learning and I work for the time when I feel ready to make a sure committment.
I read a story about monkey traps in Asia. A slot is cut in a coconut just big enough for the monkey to get his hand inside but not big enough for him to pull it out while it's clenched. People attempting to trap the monkey put something inside the coconut the monkey wants. Once his hand is inside the monkey will not pull his hand out. Physically of course it would be easy if he just let go of the contents. His attachment and desire create the trap.
After reading this story a lot of things made more sense to me. I was hooked.
QW,
I didn't find out I no longer believed what American Charismatic Christianity taught until I put myself through years of unnecessary guilt and suffering for walking away. I wish you all the happiness in the world wherever your path leads you. Not that your planning on leaving, but I know what it's like to walk away from your church especially when it's your life.
Why is it that there are so many people who, being, drawn to Buddhism, are those who have had bad experiences with other religions in the past?
Does this seem to be you?
What is your refuge?
Are you simply taking "refuge" in Buddhism because Christianity condemned your lifestyle or life choices?
Is that why you're here?
-bf
I still consider myself a Christian, but I think I consider myself a Buddhist as well. It seems like everything I learn from Buddhism helps me read the things of the Bible with a new understanding, and everything I read in the Bible helps me understand the teachings of the Buddha with a new perspective. It feels like there is a large picture, and I can only see part of it, and things that once seemed contradictory to my beliefs (were not within the scope of my sight) are now within the scope of my sight and I can see them and make connections between them, and see that they are both right, both pieces of a larger whole. Some things that seemed paradoxical before are now becoming clear.
I first recognized the wisdom in Buddha’s teachings when I asked the question “What happens to the people who have never heard of Jesus?” It didn’t seem fair that God would condemn someone to hell like that. Jesus defined “Love” as the devotion of one’s life to something, so if we are to love others, we give our lives to them, devote all to acting in their best interest. And so if Jesus came from [Heaven/Nirvana] to suffer for us (left eternal happiness to enter the cycle of suffering just to teach us again), then he is the definition of love, and accepting him is accepting gods love, and vice versa. So I came to the conclusion that someone could accept “God’s love” and “Jesus, the Love/Lord/Christ” without ever knowing of “Jesus the man” and the history behind him.
I thought on how they could recognize him without knowing the man, and I came up with a 4 point plan (which I posted on a Christian forum I belonged to at the time) And this was before I had ever heard of the Buddha’s teachings. And this line of thinking sparked all sorts of thoughts and revealed that many people of different religions may have seen the truth, but have interpreted it in a certain way, and they call it different things, but we really all have one piece of the whole.
Jesus also said “You will know false teachers by their fruits” He went on to talk about how a good tree bears good fruits and a bad tree bears bad fruits (and good fruits are love joy peace patience kindness faithfulness gentleness and self control.) And if I look at the “Christian” preachers who preach of “Jesus the man”, they are those fire and brimstone type people, they are not patient, they are hypocritical, and cruel, and they don’t distribute their care to other people unconditionally, they give it to those who they think deserve it, and that isn’t what Jesus taught. But Buddhists on the other hand seem to have ALL of these fruits, I think they are the real teachers of the message, even though they don’t teach “Jesus the man” they do teach “Jesus the love” whether some realize it or not (which is love/selflessness.)
Back to the four point plan, there is a Bible verse that teaches that God reveals himself through nature, and that the Law is written on mans hearts. When I came up with "my" four point plan, a lot of my “Christian” friends said that it was foolish and that I was trying to come up with an alternate path to salvation based on works. But one of them said it really reminded them of Buddhism, and he pointed me to the four noble truths, which weren’t quite the plan I had devised, but it was close enough. (Mine was more of a version adapted for the literal teachings of Christianity lol, but at their core they were really saying almost the same thing, the Buddha’s seemed more direct though, and it seemed that you had to “read in” to mine a little more.)
That’s when I began searching for the truth in both the bible and the teachings of Buddha, and must say, I like what I am seeing, and it has changed me for the better, and is still changing me. Before the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra, he gave all the rules for people to follow because they weren’t ready for the truth yet. I feel like the Bible has been my “set of rules” that I have followed for so long and now I am getting ready for the next level of progression, so to speak, and I am understanding things I never understood before. I feel I am closer to being rid of my [greed/craving/clinging/sin-nature] than ever before. Certain "wants" or "cravings" are now completely gone. I still have much to learn though, guess i gotta keep seeking to eliminate all of my craving.
Anyways, sorry for the huge wall of text haha, but that’s a brief summary of one of my experiences and how I “came to Buddhism” if you would like to call it that. Thanks for listening, and take care everyone:)
Redsaint,
Love your avatar! Dark Side of the Moon?
Thanks, and yep:) on the normal graphic, the rainbow is more straight like a line, but i liked this circle one better. It kind of reminds me of my current opinions/perceptions on/of the world and reality. The circle being the cycle of suffering, and the triangle being the trinity/god/heaven/nirvana. Although it might make more sense if that was a circle too lol, but the triangles neat too Pink Floyd, Tool, A Perfect Circle, and Led Zeppelin are some of my favorite bands. That is actually one of the only "wants" or "clingings" i am having a problem removing, the strong want to listen to a song or music, but really i should be content with and in every moment. (I'm pretty big into music haha, been playing guitar for 11 years) But i'll get there someday i guess... no need to rush
Just FYI, the triangle is also a symbol of the dakini, and enlightened female wisdom being. It is called the trikona, and it is a common symbol of the female organ found in many ancient cultures. The three sides represent unborn, nondwelling, and the last I can't recall right now (sorry). It usually is depicted as a double triangle like the Star of David, representing the union of opposites. More than everything you wanted to know, probably...
Just FYI, the triangle is also a symbol of the dakini, and enlightened female wisdom being. It is called the trikona, and it is a common symbol of the female organ found in many ancient cultures. The three sides represent unborn, nondwelling, and the last I can't recall right now (sorry). It usually is depicted as a double triangle like the Star of David, representing the union of opposites. More than everything you wanted to know, probably...
Palzang
Oh i appreciate the information, thank you very much
I have been noticing lots of 3's and some 7's in all sorts of religions and concepts. I just found out earlier that someone who has achieved the "Sotāpanna" level of enlightenment will only have to be reincarnated 7 times at most before they achieve nirvana, and won't be reincarnated to animal forms. My question is, what if they revert back to a previous "stage of enlightenment" in another life, is that possible? If i don't attain nirvana, can i trust my future or next self to get it, or is it possible that he(I) will stumble and fall back to a previous "level of enlightenment?"
I knew this guy that studies prophecies in the bible, and he believed in reincarnation, and he mentioned something a while back about being reincarnated 7 times in the human form (though regrettably i thought he was crazy back then because i was brainwashed by "tradition" so i didn't really listen to what he was saying lol, i wish i had listened more now.) He had all these math equations worked out and said "if you were born earlier than this date, you are probably on "x" human life, if you were born between this and this, you are probably on your first human life. I don't know if any of that stuff was right, but it would be interesting to go back and see haha. Maybe he was crazy... maybe not... idk... he was really nice though.
Thank you, Pally, for that illuminating information about the triangle. Actually, as I think about it, without the female, us males would be in a rough way in order to procreate and continue the process of evolution. So thank you ladies!
Why is it that there are so many people who, being, drawn to Buddhism, are those who have had bad experiences with other religions in the past?
Does this seem to be you?
What is your refuge?
Are you simply taking "refuge" in Buddhism because Christianity condemned your lifestyle or life choices?
Is that why you're here?
-bf
It stands to reason. If you spend your life seeking the truth and settle on a religion but later find it unsatisfactory, you may come to Buddhism. I don't think the majority of people who think there is something missing from their lives come to Buddhism _first_, unless it's predominant in their culture. The majority of individuals in the world subscribe to Christianity, Islam and Hindu, and Buddhism would be less likely of a starting point in a lot of situations.
Oh was he? I wasn't judging or anything, just answering the question to the best of my knowledge. It was a perfectly valid question to be asked, and not difficult to answer.
I was born into a born-again Christian family. Yes, born-again, tongue speaking, crazy acting Christians--and to top it off, my mom is a pastor.
I left Christianity because of all the holes. The first chapter of Genesis is full of holes that SHOULD be enough to turn people away from it's foolishness. To me, Christianity is about as believable as Greek mythology.
The reason I choose Buddhism is quoted in the Buddhist Handbook:
Freedom from Dogma and finding the truth for oneself. Buddhism doesn't demand that anyone accept its teachings on trust. The practioner is invited to try them all and to experiment with them.
I visited an incredible Hindu temple on Kauai a few years ago, and something happened to me there and I ended up investigating Hinduism...this led me to the yoga sutras...and then I was at buddhism. This over the course of maybe 2 years.
The last year and half I have been studying buddhism and i don't anticipate "ending up" anywhere else in the near future. It makes sense.
Years ago I would have said I believed in God, but would not have said I was a Christian...today I'm very uncomfortable with dogma, and I love that I don't have to call myself a buddhist today to follow the Middle Way.
I'm glad I found this forum. I've shared in recovery groups for a long time that are Christian-based, and I live in a rural area. Some days being anything but a Christian makes me feel a bit isolated.
There are a couple small meditation groups locally, and I've tried them out but don't feel like I fit there right now. So I practice on my own, and I've been lurking here for quite a few months. Today I see that this is my sangha right now, and I'm grateful for it. Wishing you a peaceful Sunday...:)
I'm rather surprised that I've ended up taking a serious interest in Buddhism. I'm not sure I would call myself Buddhist - I still know far too little about the religion to say I completely identify with it.
I was raised Christian and the fact that I have zero interest in it has certainly not gone over well with my family. I have nothing against Christians or Christianity, it just didn't make sense to me. I felt like it made a big deal of things that should be irrelevant and that it asked for too much blind faith. I have problems with following a religion because my family does. Their faith is not enough for me to base mine on.
Due to various circumstances that have occurred in the past year, I've noticed that I needed to stop looking for happiness outside of myself. I read "The Art of Happiness" and then bought a few more books by H.H. the Dalai Lama. From there, I've picked up numerous other books. I haven't agreed with everything I've read, but most of it makes sense to me. I guess it was a rather round about way to become interested in Buddhism. The only reason I even picked up the book was because I felt like it was one step above a "self help" book and I've always had a great respect for H.H. the Dalai Lama, not because I had any interest in Buddhism.
Unfortunately, I'm in a position where the closest I can get to meeting other Buddhists is sitting through a college introductory course to Buddhism and I'm certain that the only Buddhist in the room is the professor. I'd like to find a Buddhist community, but due to school and other responsibilities, there are none in the area that I could attend.
So for now, its lots of reading and sitting through a college course with a bunch of students who just need the liberal arts class to graduate.
I think Buddhism is a good system because it doesn't foist 'faith' or 'beliefs' on anyone, but requires everyone individually to seek their own truth. IF there is a truth to be found, it will be found. That was, as I see it, the respected position of the World Honoured One.
Many Asians, like me, are born into Buddhist family. Since young, I followed my father blindly in the temple trips and so on but deep down, I knew I didn't want to be be such. I opened up myself to the possibility of Christianity but ended up, I couldn't accept the religion. I couldn't accept that my own sins are taken away by another. Being a Chinese, I've always believed that for sins I've done, I'll pay for them, for they are my own actions and decisions. In addition, when I was in Middle School, I was already thinking that perhaps "fate" is the result of our actions, decisions and our characters more than it was written by someone.
Last year, after deciding that I can't believe in Christianity, I thought it was time for me to understand the religion I grew up with. And goodness! It actually coincides with my own principles and thoughts. That was when I knew, I am a Buddhist.
I'm a Buddhist because it's the only religion or path or whatever you want to call it that actually makes sense to me. Christianity never did. It's not like I'm "hiding out" from Christianity by becoming a Buddhist. In fact, I could really care less about Christianity. I abandoned it long ago after finding it devoid of any meaning for me.
Comments
Indeed my friend.
Regardless of who we are or not, we should help each other out of the water.
And it is also advisable to not abandon the raft before the stream, and to check if it has holes in them.
For if all are in the water, there is no one to help you out.
Take care,
thecap
Hi Simon,
That particular poem is untitled and quite short:
"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing
there is a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase each other,
doesn't make any sense"
~Coleman Barks translation, Rumi: The Book of Love, p 123
The Sufi poets are so skilled, aren't they?
1 - I didn't have any religion before I found Buddhism.
2 - My refuge is the Triple Gem.
3 -No
4 -No
Dazzle:)
I don't know of an exact method for adding one to any character, but you can always look it up in the character map (start -> all programs -> accessories -> system tools) and find the one you need and then find the keystroke for it.
For example, with Pema's name you would use Alt+0246 which gives you ö
Speaking for myself [for whom else could I speak for?] I must state simply that I left Christianity when I was 16 because I found, after having studied the Bible at considerable length, that I could no longer believe in any of its tenents. You cannot have an Omnibenevolent [all-good] deity that sends people to eternal torture for picking the "wrong" religion. Between 16 and 29 I was a pretty inflexable atheist, and I was fortunate enough to discover the Buddha's Dharma when I took a course in Eastern Religion here in Stockton, California (Delta College).
I have what I like to think is a rational/scientific mind, and putting it bluntly, the teachings of the Buddha made sense. A religion without a god and nothing to worship? Four Noble Truths that happen to be true? Three Marks of Existance that actually support reality even at the quantum level? Compassion [Metta] and Wisdom [Prajna] are how one liberates ones self from self...and all existance?
-sign me up!
I would not describe myself as a Buddhist. But have been looking for some guidance with my current situation (nothing drastic, just real life - young children, ageing parents etc) and buddhism seems to be the way to go.
I am not sure if I have had the chance to say welcome to New Buddhist, so welcome! Your post moves me as I see much of myself in what you write. I share some of your sentiment toward Christianity and its teachings although my view has changed considerably over the years. I was raised in a Christian home and was always aware of inconsistencies in the Bible’s teachings, but it was blasphemy to talk about them in my house. My parents were raised to believe that the Holy Bible was the literal, unwavering, perfect "Word of God" and there was no discussing it. As I got older, I began to research the Bible and eventually became enraged at what I was taught as a child. I felt cheated and eventually told my parents that I believed the whole thing was a monumental lie and a waste of time. I found out some years later that doing that had caused them considerable emotional pain as I had shown no consideration and compassion for their own beliefs. I was, as you say, an inflexible atheist.
As time has passed and I have had the opportunity to read the Dhamma and explore a new path of existence, I have come to realize that while it has many inconsistencies and IMHO cannot be taken for a literal account of historical events, the Christian Bible does, at times, have some good philosophical teachings to guide people through their lives. I no longer think it is fair to discount the entire book just as I feel that it makes no sense to discount all the teachings of the Buddha because of one or two passages I may disagree with, not understand, or find inconsistent with other teachings. I am grateful for the teachings of the Buddha and nowadays I try to incorporate the fundamental aspects of Buddhism into my daily life. I am empathetic to the religious people in the world and the passion that they feel for their beliefs. It does amazing things, this Dhamma.
~nomad
As Buddhists I think we often overlook the luxery of having those four beautiful words at the beginning of each sutra/sutta. Why? Because if something seems amise we (meaning Buddhists) have the ability to say, "well- I guess the guy that wrote this down didn't hear it right, did he?" Thus we don't ever have to be shakled to a literal understanding of the writings which form the basis of most of the various Buddhist traditions & schools.
But, yes- I was what I now call a "Fundamentalist Atheist" (There is no God and I am his prophet!). The anger you mentioned was all too familiar to me, and I have been so happy these last 11 years to have let it go. While there are certainly things within monotheism that should be challenged in a diplomatic way, anger only breeds more anger and this ultimately helps no one.
Namu Amida Butsu
Namu Amida Butsu
Namu Amida Butsu
Validus, Nomad, and Hinny, you might want to look back. Don't worry. I only wrote one sentence —one expressing eagerness for a reply to an interesting exchange.
I haven't until now contributed anything personal to this thread, as I didn't/don't consider myself quite Buddhist enough "yet." I'm really more Vedantist, as was my guru. However, that said, Buddhism is capable of a no-nonsense, helpful approach which inspires me greatly and deeply. I am directed by the Noble Eightfold Path and, in truth, am more interested in liberation than in denominational lines. Perhaps that's why I haven't posted on this thread until now, but have followed it closely.
However, I cannot truly say that I no longer believe in any Christian tenets; yet I do not find myself particularly moved by them, either. What moves me is the art and music and the silent devotions, the liturgies, etc. Yet I cannot say for sure that they're not ever idolatries, though. I am a bundle of contradictions. On the one hand, some Christian "piety" often turns me off, but on the other hand, almost daily I pray with people and also gladly accept all their prayers with grace. I guess my job in nursing may have made me more loving and accepting. (I put "piety" in quotes, as the kind of religious expression I'm referring to is not particularly humble about the truth of one's perspective and is often loud and seemingly insincere.)
I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here at all. I'm not a do-gooder, but rather a guy who really loves people and enjoys sharing the joy of religious "enthusiasm" with my neighbors. We human beings, I believe, have a faculty of worship that needs to be expressed in some sort of communal way. Our ancestors no doubt worshiped in caves and heard glorious echoings that transported them to heavenly spheres. I feel this particularly in Russian Orthodox churches and great cathedrals and at High Mass. It's the Beauty of Purpose or either the Purpose of Beauty —not the tenets— that inspire.
How, in this modern, very technical world, is it possible to continue to subscribe to all the tenets of the Christian religion? One simply cannot take every word literally. Moreover, the pace at which we move about makes many of the sacramental elements so very hard to pull off sucessfully. Holy Communion, for example, is not a part of most growing churches' practice; nor has it been for a long time.
No religion has all the answers; but questions, I believe, are more important. The questions that Buddhism addresses comprise all the fundamental ethical questions, I think. How can anyone go far wrong following the Noble Eightfold Path?
It is unfortunate that historically bad translations of the first three of the Four Noble Truths have formed clouds that still mentally afflict true understanding of Buddhism in the world. This, too, will pass. It is my hope that I will grow to be a better Buddhist while becoming a better Christian and Vedantist too.
I hope, too, that all my brothers and sisters of the world will also grow to be better, healthier, and happier.
It seems to me that religion in the East and religion in the West have certain notable differences that seem worth mentioning in the context of this discussion. It seems to me that in the West, religion (and here I mean Judaism, Christianity and Islam) seems to have the primary purpose of providing meaning. This "meaning" is bound up completely in supernatural beliefs like the soul, salvation through a savior, afterlives, temptations from demonic agencies, etc.
Eastern thought seems primarily concerned with how to cope with this difficult situation we call "living". Lao Tsu asked, "what is the way?" Confucious [Kung Fu-tsu] asked,"what is the will of Heaven(Tsien)?" Buddha asked, "why do we suffer?"
As you said, Nirvana, no religion has all the answers. The problem is that many people believe that their religion does. Certainty rooted in speculation is more dangerous then a neglected loaded missle battery.
Myself, I'm no longer interested in finding all the "answers", whatever that even means. If I can manifest wisdom and compassion enough to make the world even slightly better then it already is I'll have done my job.
Namu Amida Butsu
Namu Amida Butsu
Namu Amida Butsu
Palzang
Took the words right out of my mouth.
~nomad
Palzang
(I've seen some very important historical monuments for both, and still decided to switch. Though I haven't completely separated from the Church - I'm going to do some more reading and thinking before that.)
Palzang
You make these statements and then are silent. Why? Why make statements that can be considered "baiting" and then hide?
I used to love to hear from you on the posts then due to my own insecurities and doubts, stopped coming for a while. This was the first post of yours that I read and was heartbroken as you were one of the people that I understood and "got". I remember your posts about not going off on someone almost running your child over and how you dealt with it. I hope you are well and find the peace you are looking for. You are still in my thoughts.
Jerry
After reading this story a lot of things made more sense to me. I was hooked.
Yeshe,
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do know that when I lay around and wait for others to fix me, nothing happens. Be it a "higher power" or a fellow human being. Thanks for the reminder.
I too, realized that to be truly happy it must come from within. Buddhism has made me a very happy person for many years.
Hey... I'm still here.
What's wrong with baiting and hiding? Works great for me.
I'm actually surprised anyone "gets" me though. "Get" me? Like at the fair? "Hey kids!, knock the bottles down and get a buddhafoot!"
-bf
-bf
We're both a lightbulb short of a marquee. Probably more. That's why I get your humor. I was a bit taken aback when I read it. So what if you're a loser, as long as you're having fun doing it!
Dropping my religion was very hard, I lost and damaged many great friendships due to my confusion in my beliefs and I will not make that mistake again so for now I will take refuge in what I am learning and I work for the time when I feel ready to make a sure committment.
I didn't find out I no longer believed what American Charismatic Christianity taught until I put myself through years of unnecessary guilt and suffering for walking away. I wish you all the happiness in the world wherever your path leads you. Not that your planning on leaving, but I know what it's like to walk away from your church especially when it's your life.
Jerry
I still consider myself a Christian, but I think I consider myself a Buddhist as well. It seems like everything I learn from Buddhism helps me read the things of the Bible with a new understanding, and everything I read in the Bible helps me understand the teachings of the Buddha with a new perspective. It feels like there is a large picture, and I can only see part of it, and things that once seemed contradictory to my beliefs (were not within the scope of my sight) are now within the scope of my sight and I can see them and make connections between them, and see that they are both right, both pieces of a larger whole. Some things that seemed paradoxical before are now becoming clear.
I first recognized the wisdom in Buddha’s teachings when I asked the question “What happens to the people who have never heard of Jesus?” It didn’t seem fair that God would condemn someone to hell like that. Jesus defined “Love” as the devotion of one’s life to something, so if we are to love others, we give our lives to them, devote all to acting in their best interest. And so if Jesus came from [Heaven/Nirvana] to suffer for us (left eternal happiness to enter the cycle of suffering just to teach us again), then he is the definition of love, and accepting him is accepting gods love, and vice versa. So I came to the conclusion that someone could accept “God’s love” and “Jesus, the Love/Lord/Christ” without ever knowing of “Jesus the man” and the history behind him.
I thought on how they could recognize him without knowing the man, and I came up with a 4 point plan (which I posted on a Christian forum I belonged to at the time) And this was before I had ever heard of the Buddha’s teachings. And this line of thinking sparked all sorts of thoughts and revealed that many people of different religions may have seen the truth, but have interpreted it in a certain way, and they call it different things, but we really all have one piece of the whole.
Jesus also said “You will know false teachers by their fruits” He went on to talk about how a good tree bears good fruits and a bad tree bears bad fruits (and good fruits are love joy peace patience kindness faithfulness gentleness and self control.) And if I look at the “Christian” preachers who preach of “Jesus the man”, they are those fire and brimstone type people, they are not patient, they are hypocritical, and cruel, and they don’t distribute their care to other people unconditionally, they give it to those who they think deserve it, and that isn’t what Jesus taught. But Buddhists on the other hand seem to have ALL of these fruits, I think they are the real teachers of the message, even though they don’t teach “Jesus the man” they do teach “Jesus the love” whether some realize it or not (which is love/selflessness.)
Back to the four point plan, there is a Bible verse that teaches that God reveals himself through nature, and that the Law is written on mans hearts. When I came up with "my" four point plan, a lot of my “Christian” friends said that it was foolish and that I was trying to come up with an alternate path to salvation based on works. But one of them said it really reminded them of Buddhism, and he pointed me to the four noble truths, which weren’t quite the plan I had devised, but it was close enough. (Mine was more of a version adapted for the literal teachings of Christianity lol, but at their core they were really saying almost the same thing, the Buddha’s seemed more direct though, and it seemed that you had to “read in” to mine a little more.)
That’s when I began searching for the truth in both the bible and the teachings of Buddha, and must say, I like what I am seeing, and it has changed me for the better, and is still changing me. Before the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra, he gave all the rules for people to follow because they weren’t ready for the truth yet. I feel like the Bible has been my “set of rules” that I have followed for so long and now I am getting ready for the next level of progression, so to speak, and I am understanding things I never understood before. I feel I am closer to being rid of my [greed/craving/clinging/sin-nature] than ever before. Certain "wants" or "cravings" are now completely gone. I still have much to learn though, guess i gotta keep seeking to eliminate all of my craving.
Anyways, sorry for the huge wall of text haha, but that’s a brief summary of one of my experiences and how I “came to Buddhism” if you would like to call it that. Thanks for listening, and take care everyone:)
With Love,
Redsaint
Love your avatar! Dark Side of the Moon?
Thanks, and yep:) on the normal graphic, the rainbow is more straight like a line, but i liked this circle one better. It kind of reminds me of my current opinions/perceptions on/of the world and reality. The circle being the cycle of suffering, and the triangle being the trinity/god/heaven/nirvana. Although it might make more sense if that was a circle too lol, but the triangles neat too
Palzang
Oh i appreciate the information, thank you very much
I have been noticing lots of 3's and some 7's in all sorts of religions and concepts. I just found out earlier that someone who has achieved the "Sotāpanna" level of enlightenment will only have to be reincarnated 7 times at most before they achieve nirvana, and won't be reincarnated to animal forms. My question is, what if they revert back to a previous "stage of enlightenment" in another life, is that possible? If i don't attain nirvana, can i trust my future or next self to get it, or is it possible that he(I) will stumble and fall back to a previous "level of enlightenment?"
I knew this guy that studies prophecies in the bible, and he believed in reincarnation, and he mentioned something a while back about being reincarnated 7 times in the human form (though regrettably i thought he was crazy back then because i was brainwashed by "tradition" so i didn't really listen to what he was saying lol, i wish i had listened more now.) He had all these math equations worked out and said "if you were born earlier than this date, you are probably on "x" human life, if you were born between this and this, you are probably on your first human life. I don't know if any of that stuff was right, but it would be interesting to go back and see haha. Maybe he was crazy... maybe not... idk... he was really nice though.
Palzang
It's funny the older I get the less I know.
BF was being a stinker when he posted that! He actually is a good guy, especially on toast and cooked well done. (Just kidding!)
I left Christianity because of all the holes. The first chapter of Genesis is full of holes that SHOULD be enough to turn people away from it's foolishness. To me, Christianity is about as believable as Greek mythology.
The reason I choose Buddhism is quoted in the Buddhist Handbook:
I visited an incredible Hindu temple on Kauai a few years ago, and something happened to me there and I ended up investigating Hinduism...this led me to the yoga sutras...and then I was at buddhism. This over the course of maybe 2 years.
The last year and half I have been studying buddhism and i don't anticipate "ending up" anywhere else in the near future. It makes sense.
Years ago I would have said I believed in God, but would not have said I was a Christian...today I'm very uncomfortable with dogma, and I love that I don't have to call myself a buddhist today to follow the Middle Way.
I'm glad I found this forum. I've shared in recovery groups for a long time that are Christian-based, and I live in a rural area. Some days being anything but a Christian makes me feel a bit isolated.
There are a couple small meditation groups locally, and I've tried them out but don't feel like I fit there right now. So I practice on my own, and I've been lurking here for quite a few months. Today I see that this is my sangha right now, and I'm grateful for it. Wishing you a peaceful Sunday...:)
Palzang
I was raised Christian and the fact that I have zero interest in it has certainly not gone over well with my family. I have nothing against Christians or Christianity, it just didn't make sense to me. I felt like it made a big deal of things that should be irrelevant and that it asked for too much blind faith. I have problems with following a religion because my family does. Their faith is not enough for me to base mine on.
Due to various circumstances that have occurred in the past year, I've noticed that I needed to stop looking for happiness outside of myself. I read "The Art of Happiness" and then bought a few more books by H.H. the Dalai Lama. From there, I've picked up numerous other books. I haven't agreed with everything I've read, but most of it makes sense to me. I guess it was a rather round about way to become interested in Buddhism. The only reason I even picked up the book was because I felt like it was one step above a "self help" book and I've always had a great respect for H.H. the Dalai Lama, not because I had any interest in Buddhism.
Unfortunately, I'm in a position where the closest I can get to meeting other Buddhists is sitting through a college introductory course to Buddhism and I'm certain that the only Buddhist in the room is the professor. I'd like to find a Buddhist community, but due to school and other responsibilities, there are none in the area that I could attend.
So for now, its lots of reading and sitting through a college course with a bunch of students who just need the liberal arts class to graduate.
Last year, after deciding that I can't believe in Christianity, I thought it was time for me to understand the religion I grew up with. And goodness! It actually coincides with my own principles and thoughts. That was when I knew, I am a Buddhist.
That about sums it up perfectly for me!