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Moderate alcohol use
skullchin
Veteran
Hi all,
I did a search on this topic already so I think I know what everyone's answers will consist of. But, what are your opinions on the effects of moderate alcohol use (couple drinks Fri/Sat night) on meditation? Mindfulness?
I did a search on this topic already so I think I know what everyone's answers will consist of. But, what are your opinions on the effects of moderate alcohol use (couple drinks Fri/Sat night) on meditation? Mindfulness?
0
Comments
Most of the time I'm simply not interested because I've got other more important >>disciplined<< stuff to do.
I guess it comes with the territory, so for example if you have a Booze oriented social life, it's pretty difficult to mix without having a spin out. The last wedding I was at involved reckless behaviour so 'when in Rome' as the saying goes. But at the end of the night I was really tired, hungry and fed up acting the goat for my snap-happy photographer friend, and wanted to go home for a pile of food then bed. They don't drink much either and they own a family pub.
So long as you're not nuts about arousal related pursuits, I don't think it's really anything to sneeze at, but I'm no super buddhist.
The point of the precept against intoxication is that alcohol makes you less mindful. The degree to which this is true varies by person, but it is true all the same. I'm lucky I have a fairly high tolerance and my decision-making is largely unaffected even after many drinks, but good choices alone do not make one mindful.
Within meditation = no. Why would you? The aim of meditation is to return the mind to its pure and natural state. Adding various intoxicants and things that alter the mind are not helpful. I hope the state one is in when they're under the influence isn't our inherent nature. What good is it when you can't remember it the next morning anyway.
No, but what's done is done. If you drank and are drunk, then that is part of the "pure and natural state" of the moment. There is no reason not to meditate at that moment. A systematic blending of alcohol and meditation would be a terrible idea, of course.
Threre's a time and a place for most things, such as not drinking and going to an interview; not drinking and driving; not drinking at a childs birthday party. So what situation are you going to be in where you are drunk and decide to meditate?
THAT is true enough.
But what I'm referring to is people who are looking at alcohol to help them "get into a meditative state" more quickly or easily or something.
Like I said in another Thread, the entire process is meditation. There's no need for drugs/alcohol.
looking something like --> :nonono:
Try meditating with your eyes open. Meditating with your eyes closed creates several problems. First of all, it can easily lead to going to sleep. It also creates a disconnect between the meditation experience and the post-meditation experience. Try just looking in front of yourself a couple of feet while you're meditating with your eyes partly closed but not all the way. Then if you're feeling drowsy, raise your gaze a little. That should help. Or if you're feeling like your mind is too busy, try lowering your gaze a little. Sort of like a fine tuning knob. I find it works really well. (nothing to do with drinking or not drinking, just sort of general advice)
Palzang
This was one of many unexpected responses to meditation.
Moderate alcohol use may indeed be "fine", but it's clearly breaking the fifth precept.
I'm surprised by all the Buddhists here who drink.
Everything in moderation...
You follow the precepts flawlessly? :eek:
Does this include moderation in moderation?
Palzang
Alcohol serves a purpose in numbing the mind, distracting the focus of facing life without experiencing suffering openly.
The words just stop coming, or going, out looking for more.
Does this apply the same to all drugs?
Palzang
I realize after being a PRO at this...in moderation is fine (sarcastic kinda)..but wtf is the fun in that? it's useless!! don't bother..
if ur going to say something like i just want a little buzz, or i want to be social, WHATEVER unwind a little... thats bs, really u want a mini version of the buzz of getting faced! or a bit numb. remember when u were a kid, beer tasted like SHIT! alcohol would burn your throat.
(it's just that being numb is like a self medication...to suffering..
not a cure.
but since the cure is hard to come by, I personally, prefer some ignorance is bliss style...lazy style...)
the thing is don't get addicted!!!, because IT will get addicted to you...like in my case, i'm fk'ed..
so ask yourself, why am i asking these silly buddhists if it's okay to drink a little? really you want us to tell you its okay to get shitfaced.
sure it's okay , go ahead, drink "a little"..moderation........drink a little more.....a little more... just a little, Thefound says its okay...also please sacrafice a baby goat in my name at midnight HAHAHAHHA
no seriously though, about 2 years ago or something I was asking the same questions to my buddhist seniors.. i was really asking for permission , looking for reasons, I knew it was wrong, I hung on every word of people that said it's okay to drink a little, and it really just helped my addictions..
in conclusion, its NOT okay man. really what your asking is,
"if it's just a little poison, its okay right?"
"if it's just one drink.....
"if it's just one cigarette or blunt.......
the thing is, will you after this MODERATE amount, never have any , ever again? or will you have another moderate amount, then another?
it's a war. or race,lets say.. you don't want to be behind not even by a little.. TRUST ME.
As an example, say you are about to give a big speech before an audience, and feel quite nervous. A drink might help calm your nerves and loosen you up, right? Nobody could fault you for such an impulse, yet it is not the best answer. What if you have to do the same speech thirty times in as many days, and get nervous before each one? The drink becomes a crutch, and you never learn to perform without it. Instead of awareness, you choose delusion. One who is liberated, however, has no need to "loosen up." The experience of giving a speech--or even of being nervous--simply is what it is, like any other experience. It is no more frightening than mowing the lawn.
I used to drink, quite a bit at times. Now, I can't stand the feeling of alcohol in my system. The brain gets mushy. The senses become dull. There is a general feeling of warmth and pleasure, but it is not at all worth the loss of awareness.
It is like being just a little dead.
My experience as a young kid with beer was the exact opposite. I found and continue to find beer delicious. In addition let's not discount the spiritual and historical significance of beer as shown below from Wikipedia;
Beer is one of the world's oldest prepared beverages, possibly dating back to the early Neolithic or 9000 BC, and is recorded in the written history of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-7>[8]</SUP> The earliest Sumerian writings contain references to a type of beer. A prayer to the goddess Ninkasi, known as "The Hymn to Ninkasi", serves as both a prayer as well as a method of remembering the recipe for beer in a culture with few literate people.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-Nin-kasi_4-1>[</SUP>
The invention of bread and beer has been argued to be responsible for humanity's ability to develop technology and build civilization.
It is true that when you look at alcohol as an intoxicant, which it most certainly is, used in the manner that you describe that it does alter the mind.
Alcohol is more than an intoxicant, though. The better examples of the form are stunningly delicious. If you want to talk about being wholly present and aware it is difficult to top the presence one feels when tasting a bold, complex cabernet or a sweet, smoky scotch whisky. These drinks are alive and are a marvel to behold.
When we get down to it, meditation has the potential to be the most mind altering activity of all, exceeding any drug or drink. Nothing was more jarring to me than pondering the interconnectedness of all existence and considering that what I thought were my thoughts seemed to be mere responses to external stimulus.
Without meditation, I never would have seen to what extent my thoughts originated beyond my control. So much so that I still am unsure if I think my thoughts or do my thoughts think me?
Without proper, informed guidance, the discovery of the illusory nature of the self and the groundlessness of life has as much destructive potential as it does constructive.
What you have described is just another form of intoxication, intoxication of the senses. Craving such sense perceptions is a form of attachment. Of course, you are free to indulge the senses if you wish. I'm sure no harm will come from a drink now and then.
Let me tell you something, though. I can drink a glass of water with all the sensory pleasure and delight you just described. In the case of water, however, there is the added benefit of knowing I am sustaining my body with the life-blood of the universe. I know if I drink alcohol, instead--although I might enjoy the taste for a moment--it will dull my mind, if only slightly. The pleasure will soon pass and I'll be none better for it. I find infinitely greater pleasure in a glass of water.
While I completely agree that meditation can be a remarkable experience, it is not mind-altering. It is mind-restoring. It is when our minds are bombarded with stimuli, both external and internal, that our consciousness is "altered."
I couldn't disagree more. Waking up should never be the cause of destruction. How can it be? When you realize you are not separate from anything you can perceive--your environment, the people around you, the earth, the sun, even the whole of the universe--how can you willfully cause harm to anything? Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't see how one could awaken without becoming more compassionate. I believe it is impossible.
I agree that intoxication of the senses results from any alcohol consumption but I mentioned nothing about craving. It would not bother me at all if I were to never have another drink.
My choice of the term mind altering for meditation wasn't the best. But, in my experience, it has been perception altering in a massive way. It has not been my experience that my mind is in the process of being restored, however. If anything, I often find myself questioning if my mind is even my own and if my thoughts are thinking me as opposed to the reverse.
As to our minds being bombarded with stimuli, this is simply unavoidable and the perpetual state of being alive. Almost all of it goes unnoticed but it still affects us whether we notice it or not.
As long as we are alive I don't see how we can "awaken". If we can't even hear a dog whistle how are we to know the totality of all in our current state and beyond time and space?
Meditation is not quite the same as getting drunk.
Do you not believe in the state of Nibbana? What's your understanding of it?
Arietta,
Oh, come on.
Moderate alcohol use can actually have quite a few health benefits. So what if someone drinks an occassional glass from time to time, and maybe even enjoys the taste? Then they're doing exactly the same thing you've described.
The concept of Nibbana has confounded me for as long as I have been aware of it. Because of my physical and mental limitations Nibbana is unknowable and indescribable.
Is it ultimate freedom? If so, what is it that is free?
Is it pure awareness or does it transcend awareness?
If all are truly interconnected can Nibbana be attained independently as others continue to suffer?
These are just a few questions that have arisen throughout the duration of my practice.
Hmm D.O. and nonduality aren't quite the same. Actually, did the Buddha actually teach nonduality? Not that I've read in the Suttas so far, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry, your comment just got me wondering...
It's not that I feel guilty, only that I recognize these little indiscretions came about not through need, but through dissatisfaction with the present moment. I see every craving as a symptom of this dissatisfaction, and instead of mindlessly reaching for something outside myself, I try to look inward to see what is really missing. As an example, with mindfulness, I might realize the reason I was craving those M&Ms was because I was feeling a little lonely and seeking comfort. Understanding this, I can abate my need for the candy. I can also choose to give in to it anyway. Either way, I have made a mindful choice.
Chances seem pretty likely I'll go for the M&Ms again, next time I see that vending machine. But I'll do so with my eyes open, without any need for rationalizing or remorse. :winkc:
Getting back to your question, I mostly eat and drink solely for the sustenance of my body. I've been a vegetarian for about 20 years. I don't smoke, drink, or use drugs. I stay away from caffeine, aspartame, and other weird drugs they tend to put in stuff nowadays. I mostly drink water, the only exceptions being an occasional vitamin water or soy milk. I also exercise regularly.
I'm not really a health nut, in spite of how it sounds. I just try to be mindful about what I do with my body. I actually chain-smoked for fifteen years. I used to drink a fair bit of alcohol, too. I think the first thing I quit was caffeine. I hated being a slave to a chemical. Over the years, all the rest fell away, too. I realized I felt better, and my mind was clearer, when I made healthier choices. Vegetarianism came about through my compassion towards animals, but I soon enjoyed enormous health benefits from that, too. In many ways, I was Buddhist before I even understood what Buddhism really was.
No matter how many vices I give up, I always find another (like those M&Ms). I accept it as a challenge. With every conquered desire, I become a little more free, one step closer to complete liberation. It is an exhilarating feeling. I still have a couple big ones to work out, but sometimes it helps to look back and wave at the ones I already left behind. I might even stick my tongue out at them. Another indulgence? Certainly.
But it sure feels good.
I shouldn't!...I have drunk(drank?dranked?drunken?) like a whole lake of beer in my lifetime. and it has been a USELESS investment...:(
you know there is a price to pay for each drink...it would suck to pay, "liver failure" for a buzz I can't keep...not to mention paying "hang over" "stomach acid" and "beer shits" the morning after...lol...:(
The prices humans are willing to pay for a little
bit of pleasure/relief/numbness, is insane..I'm better off taking my money here..and just throwing it on the street, maybe then some poorer person will use it to feed her starving children...but no instead i'm going to use it to kill myself just a little more....
the world...samsara.. is kind of a .....LAME/sad place.. escaping this is really, really, what everyone wants, even if you don't realize it..sub-consciously I think we all do deep down.
but like i said this is making me kind of sad ..lol...I can really use a drink...poor kids be damned!!.. let them starve!! while I "HIDE" from and try to forget samsara... (cowardice much?):skeptical
That's not the man I want to be..there's no honor in that..
I always think..what would the girl of my dreams think of a guy like that. ..who hides from his own reality...is selfish and basically a loser.....she probably wouldn't even give me the time of day ...at this rate..:(
Everything? Crack? Meth? Sex with prostitutes? Common sense tells us that it's best to totally abstain from some things.
Some of them, yes. I'm far from perfect, but the precepts are the bare minimum of morality.
I could argue at least one of those, but in any event, what inevitable harm comes from a single glass of alcohol in absolutely all circumstances?
That is very impressive. I doubt anyone else here could say that.
But not the fifth one, right?
If nobody had sex with prostitutes how could they continue to be prostitutes?
I don't think that inevitable harm should be the standard. Lots of people have used hard drugs, driven while intoxicated and had illicit sex without harming themselves or others. Wise people still abstain from these behaviors.
I don't. Most people don't struggle to keep themselves from stealing, killing and raping. The big ones just aren't that hard for most people.
Yeah, the fifth one. At least Buddha thought so. I don't know anyone who drinks - even moderately - who hasn't done something they regret because of alcohol.
What would be even more impressive is if someone could accomplish all three simultaneously.
I think that one is acceptable. One unit. I stop as soon as I feel the slightest affect because then I'm no longer 'me'.
Having said that I do think there is something to be gained from loosening your grip on the world but alcohol is not necessarily the way I would choose.
All through history, religion has used altered states to teach us. We can even alter our state with suggestion, like taking communion, or chanting.
I’m not sure, but it may be something that the human mind requires in order to stay sane.
Our body has altered states built right in to it. When we run, or when we are in pain, the body releases endorphins to blunt our discomfort.
Even to fall in love our body releases feel good hormones. Would the human race even survive without these alterations/motivations?
Hunger is an altered state.
I do know, however, that taking drugs and/or alcohol blunts the body’s natural reaction to pain with a release of endorphins.
You can go without booze, and your natural endorphins, (which have been blunted), for as much as 6 months when first trying to stop yourself from over drinking.
This is an altered state, too. It is just not a fun one. That is one of the reasons that it is so hard to stay clean at first, and for a high percentage of back sliding.
When you had trouble dealing with normal, than being physically depressed (post drugs) must be a real bear.
Just wondering,
S9
I quit drinking because I started using beer or wine to relieve physical and mental stress. Alcohol is not very effective for that; it only masks the stress. Moreover, there are far less harmful ways to do the same thing. Of course, the answer was to get to the bottom of the stress; which is easier said than done -- but certainly possible.
R: I think the main thing is do your practice to awaken your own panna / prajna / discernment, and then learn to trust that discernment.
S9: That seems rather vague to me. Could you be more explicit about what you mean, like 1st I would meditate watch my “? “ (as in discern what) until it became clearer to me that I should “?”.
I think sometime we don't accomplish things because we do keep them vague.
Like a book title: 'Write it down, and make it happen.' See what I mean?
Thanx,
S9
Ask the families of reformed drunks if they prefer active alcoholism to recovery.