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R: I think the main thing is do your practice to awaken your own panna / prajna / discernment, and then learn to trust that discernment.
S9: That seems rather vague to me. Could you be more explicit about what you mean, like 1st I would meditate watch my “? “ (as in discern what) until it became clearer to me that I should “?”.
I think sometime we don't accomplish things because we do keep them vague.
Like a book title: 'Write it down, and make it happen.' See what I mean?
Thanx,
S9
Discernment is not a really good translation for prajna; just the best one I can think of. Pra-jna is what discerns; it is not the discerned. Jna means to know, in the direct sense, including but not limited to the biblical. Pra can be similar to pro, pre, or per; it means go forth or forward, before, in front of, and indicates what puts forth the action of verb; makes the action go forward. So, prajna is sort of the prerequisite one must have to discern correctly and know for oneself {jna}. Maybe prajna could mean keen perception and judgement. The Chinese word used to translate prajna means intelligent.
Other people can tell us whether they think we should drink or not. However, unless we are motivated to win their approval, it is unlikely to have much of an effect. Or sometimes it has a bad effect; I have seen people try to conceal alcohol use to avoid disapproval; or even drink as a way of defying what others suggest. So, what needs to be discerned here is the influence that alcoholic beverages have on one's life. Also, one's inner motive; why one drinks. Is the motive to drink wholesome; neutral, or an affliction?
That is my best take on it right now, my view might be mistaken or incomplete.
Ask the families of reformed drunks if they prefer active alcoholism to recovery.
That {the only thing worse than a drunk is a reformed drunk...} is an old joke. What it refers to is a person that quits; then wants everyone else to quit too, lectures others all the time and so on. That is not really full recovery.
That {the only thing worse than a drunk is a reformed drunk...} is an old joke. What it refers to is a person that quits; then wants everyone else to quit too, lectures others all the time and so on. That is not really full recovery.
I see.
I would actually like to tell my mother how upsetting it is that she's drunk all the time but feel that my past behavior has obliterated my credibility on that particular topic.
I would actually like to tell my mother how upsetting it is that she's drunk all the time but feel that my past behavior has obliterated my credibility on that particular topic.
That is a tough one, even if we have credibility on the subject. If I had to deal with that, I think I would first try to work on my 'upset' feelings. I would do compassion {kariuna} cultivation; to empath-ize. Also patience or forbearance; the word is khanti / kshanti. The Chinese word for that means endurance. Someone said it means patience for people or things that do not really deserve patience.
Those are the things I would do to get my heart in the right place; so I could let the person know my affection for them is unconditional. Then the other thing I would do is to try to view the situation objectively; meditation on emptiness and a couple different mantras help me do that.
In my experience; the person abusing alcohol needs to 'see it.' Prodding can do what I suggested in another post; cause defiance or concealment. I have also seen rare situations in which a coercive intervention was called for. In those cases, a detached person with training might have to do it.
Good luck. Sometimes there is no right answer; certainly finding it is not easy. I once had an elderly neighbor who was drinking and driving and posing a danger, among other things. After doing the above cultivations, I spoke with his doctor; who I had found out was the only person the elderly neighbor would listen to.
I did a search on this topic already so I think I know what everyone's answers will consist of. But, what are your opinions on the effects of moderate alcohol use (couple drinks Fri/Sat night) on meditation? Mindfulness?
From personal experience ive found that in a small quantitys combined with a practise of mindfullness it can be rather helpfull as you become futher aware...however still its not a reconmended practise if one drinks try to practise mindfullness whilst doing so.
I would say that what comes before Knowing (with a capital K to indicate the Ultimate) is the intention to Know. Of course, these are just two sides of the one coin, or Buddha Nature, both intention and Knowing, and both are given. They are not something that we do. They flow through us. We intend to Know simply because we are unsatisfied, or in an unsatisfactory state, which is that of becoming.
To contemplate is to look directly. What we continue to look directly at, at least at first, is what is left when illusions or defilements are erased, or we discontinue identifying with these illusions.
After a while, of course, as I believe to have hinted at, we are looking at our more Essential Self, which is transcendent of becoming, and her material manifestations.
Intellect is one of our paths. It is not who we are.
There is absolutely nothing that we do in our lives that cannot be done unwisely, even love. But, no one is likely to tell you to abstain from love. A wise and healthy life is all about balance, IMO.
It has been a long day; so take this with a grain of salt. I might be missing the pint, er point. There is prajna in the sense of ordinary, discriminative intelligence. There is also the prajna of perceiving Emptiness or non-duality. In this case. whether to use intoxicants or not, both come into play. I think. The discriminating part might be, if one must drink, to at least go for the good stuff. . Or it might be to use good judgment; which in my case, meant to abstain.
Then there is the danger of become a puritanical, overbearing, anti-drinking crusader. That might be where detachment and discernment of Emptiness could come into play. The thing is, I decided against one-ness of my life and a bottle of Cabernet.
"Whoever is a drunkard, broke, and destitute, Dragged by thirst from bar to bar, Sinking into debt like a stone in water Into bewilderment quickly plunges." -- Sigalovada Sutta
My bad. I was speaking on multiple levels because of something you hinted at, or at least, I thought you hinted at. It made me think that you were speaking in a multi-level way, also. But, apparently you were not doing that.
So no wonder you thought that I was out there flying around your head. I was. ; ^ )
R: There is prajna in the sense of ordinary, discriminative intelligence.
S9: Yes, that is certainly one of the levels.
R: There is also the prajna of perceiving Emptiness or non-duality.
S9: Yup, that is another level.
R: In this case, whether to use intoxicants or not, both come into play. I think.
S9: I guess that would depend upon why you were getting intoxicated, and how. I know that if I write poetry for a whole afternoon, I can get ‘high-as-a-kite’ on it.
I remember having done just that some years back with my sister. We both would sit at the dining room table and write/write/write.
One day, after doing just that, I got up and looked out into the back yard. Everything (trees, flowers, bushes) was surrounded in bright yellow light (It wasn't just sunight, far brighter than that. Sort of how some people describe an aura).
Now I realize that it was probably some kind of a Satori. But, such things have happened too often in conjunction with my writing for me not to see some connection there. It may have something to do with me concentrating intensely, or something. I don’t know.
R: The discriminating part might be, if one must drink, to at least go for the good stuff. . Or it might be to use good judgment, which in my case, meant to abstain.
S9: Yes, that is only sensible. If you deny yourself every pleasure, however, than that would be its own form of foolishness. Ask any anorexic, about the sickness of abstaining in excess.
However, you must keep a sharp eye on yourself, and know your own limits. This isn’t a game of pretend. For instance, I know that I can’t allow myself to bring a bag of Oreos into the house…or all is lost. You wouldn’t believe how many good reasons there are for me to have another one.
: ^ )
R: Then there is the danger of become a puritanical, overbearing, anti-drinking crusader.
S9: I have a friend who defines fundamentalist Christians as the people who believe that no one should have any fun…that fun should be stumped out of existence.
What ever happened to, “...that we may having life more abundantly?”
Now we just have to figure our what abundant means…it certainly doesn’t mean, “More is always better.” Ask anyone with a tummy ache, from eating too much cheesecake.
; ^ )
R: That might be where detachment and discernment of Emptiness could come into play.
S9: It certainly did for me, in this way. Someone who is basically satisfied (comfortable in his own skin) is not so desperate for the so-called ‘band-aid solutions.’
But, what the mind apprehends and calls “Emptiness,” is actually “Fullness of Spirit,” or our “Original Face,” or "Satifaction within the Wholeness of Being."
My bad. I was speaking on multiple levels because of something you hinted at, or at least, I thought you hinted at. It made me think that you were speaking in a multi-level way, also. But, apparently you were not doing that.
So no wonder you thought that I was out there flying around your head. I was. ; ^ )
Actually, I think we were on the same page. My brain was just tired. Also, I get very technical, it annoys some of my cyber colleagues.
I remember having done just that some years back with my sister. We both would sit at the dining room table and write/write/write.
One day, after doing just that, I got up and looked out into the back yard. Everything (trees, flowers, bushes) was surrounded in bright yellow light (It wasn't just sunight, far brighter than that. Sort of how some people describe an aura).
Now I realize that it was probably some kind of a Satori. But, such things have happened too often in conjunction with my writing for me not to see some connection there. It may have something to do with me concentrating intensely, or something. I don’t know.
The levels of concentration meditation describe that. When one is in access concentration, odd, scary vision / voice things can happen. I think, in Zen, these are called Makyos, 魔鄕 -- the Mara Heaven, a kind of false attainment. That is the highest heaven in realm of lusty desire; the kama dhatu.
In rupa jhana / dhyana 禪 {zen} or 禪定 {zenjo}; form or fine material absorption:
Vittaka / Vitarka 尋: Directed attention, discursive thought
Vicara 伺: Heightened or rapt attention & analysis.
Piti / priti 喜: Ecstatic Joy
Sukha 樂 : Blissful feeling.
Ekagatta / ekagrata 一緣住 : One pointed abiding.
The arising of those mental factors would be the same as the first Brahma, Fine Material, or Form Meditative Heaven {rupa dhatu}. I am not as familiar with the Soto Zen terminology; that is something I am going to look at.
Learning how to get into the highly concentrated meditative absorption states, and arousing natural highs, has been very important, vital to my healing. It has its place in the bigger picture. The more non-directed expansive spatial awareness, mindfulness, is important too. Concentration and mindfulness, for me work side by side.
On drinking alcohol, I neither indulge indulge nor abstain. The stuff aggravates my medical condition, so I simply lost the desire to drink alcohol. That relates to my joke above about reformed alcoholics. Indulgence and are abstention are two sides of the same coin; the same infatuation. Alcohol is just irrelevant to me, right now. I never think about it. I think that is where you were going too?
... Indulgence and are abstention are two sides of the same coin; the same infatuation. Alcohol is just irrelevant to me, right now. I never think about it.
Isn't this the ultimate goal with all sense pleasures?
I am still traveling through abstentions (on the way to irrelevance) with alcohol, which is necessary. I've been told that the mechanics of the trip, which involve letting neural pathways become dormant) takes three or four years.
Isn't this the ultimate goal with all sense pleasures?
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Our tendency is to avoid uncomfortable, hard things and seek comfortable, easy things. It's a childhood response, and as children it's a survival tool. If we spend our whole lives seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, however, we suffer for it. No amount of pleasure will ever be enough to bring satisfaction. Recognizing this is the ticket for stepping off the carousel. We are ruled by the pain of our cravings and the pleasure of fulfilling them, but the ride goes on and on and takes us nowhere.
At first it seems that pleasure is the enemy, because we identify it as the cause of our suffering. As an example, we drink alcohol, we get drunk, we suffer. If we have a drinking problem, our whole lives suffer. We blame the alcohol, and associate the pleasure of drinking with our suffering. We misplaced the real source of the problem, which is the craving. The craving isn't just for alcohol. Alcohol is incidental to our problem, our "drug of choice". If we don't realize this, recovery is much harder and far less likely to succeed.
The problem is there is something inside that makes us crave something outside. The magic of Buddhist meditation is that it gets us into the moment, where nothing is missing, nothing is needed. It's all about acceptance, or surrender. We surrender to the present moment, to our alignment in the Universe. Here we are, here is the world. This is the way it is. Whatever we happen to be feeling, no matter how uncomfortable, we accept. Whatever is happening around us, no matter how chaotic, we accept. We accept our craving, our anger, our hurt, our humanity, and just let it go.
By acknowledging our imperfections, we tap into universal perfection. There is nothing that needs to be done. We don't need to be stronger, or have more willpower, or be more courageous. Those are traits that come naturally when we surrender.
Have you ever played with one of those Chinese finger puzzles? It's a little woven tube you stick your fingers in, and the more you pull the tighter its grip becomes. The only way to release yourself is to stop struggling. So often in life, we assume we must struggle and suffer our way through, until one day we are happy and free. We have it completely backwards! We're already happy and free, if we'd only stop struggling long enough to see!
I am still traveling through abstentions (on the way to irrelevance) with alcohol, which is necessary. I've been told that the mechanics of the trip, which involve letting neural pathways become dormant) takes three or four years.
That sounds reasonable. Quitting cigarettes was like that for me. Even to this day, after almost eight years, once in a blue moon I find myself in a situation that triggers a craving. It's more of a memory than a real craving, like an automated response. The brain is a remarkable beast, isn't it?
Isn't this the ultimate goal with all sense pleasures?
I am still traveling through abstentions (on the way to irrelevance) with alcohol, which is necessary. I've been told that the mechanics of the trip, which involve letting neural pathways become dormant) takes three or four years.
Sitting meditation helped me a lot. It opened up an inner bliss, so that I felt blissful amidst a very discouraging situation. Also, the metta bhavana meditation was very helpful.
Thank you for this information. I will read about these.
Some years back, my Guru at the time said that, when we became more sensitive because of our meditation, we would begin to notice ourselves developing some powers, probably what some people call ESP type powers becoming more apparent, but that we shouldn’t let these powers side track us, or let them become an obstacle on the path.
I have seen more than my share of people fall into these worlds of the imagination, and not be able to keep their feet back on the ground easily, because of it. No worry about me doing that.
He also said that, you could be bound by certain wonderful states, states such as tranquility. They are so very pleasant, that you would not want to let go of them, but these were also merely states of the mind, or imagination. Some people include a Satori as one of these pleasant states.
Perhaps these states are a little like the synthetic states that we merely touch upon with the use of booze, and drugs. But, these states (both imaginative or synthetic) are all traps, simply because they remain within duality, and because of that they cannot be maintained. In other words, they come and go.
They will certainly lead us back to suffering, when indulged, and most probably in a more weakened state than b/4 their use. It is difficult to deal with suffering when it is in juxtaposition with pleasure of such an extreme, because suffer too will than seem extreme in contrast.
There is a saying: If the Gods really want to punish you, first they take you up to heaven, let you taste of it, and then they send you back to earth.
Thank you for this information. I will read about these.
Some years back, my Guru at the time said that, when we became more sensitive because of our meditation, we would begin to notice ourselves developing some powers, probably what some people call ESP type powers becoming more apparent, but that we shouldn’t let these powers side track us, or let them become an obstacle on the path.
I have seen more than my share of people fall into these worlds of the imagination, and not be able to keep their feet back on the ground easily, because of it. No worry about me doing that.
He also said that, you could be bound by certain wonderful states, states such as tranquility. They are so very pleasant, that you would not want to let go of them, but these were also merely states of the mind, or imagination. Some people include a Satori as one of these pleasant states.
Perhaps these states are a little like the synthetic states that we merely touch upon with the use of booze, and drugs. But, these states (both imaginative or synthetic) are all traps, simply because they remain within duality, and because of that they cannot be maintained. In other words, they come and go.
They will certainly lead us back to suffering, when indulged, and most probably in a more weakened state than b/4 their use. It is difficult to deal with suffering when it is in juxtaposition with pleasure of such an extreme, because suffer too will than seem extreme in contrast.
There is a saying: If the Gods really want to punish you, first they take you up to heaven, let you taste of it, and then they send you back to earth.
Warm Regards,
S9
Your teacher is wise. The joy and bliss of form absorption is healing and useful, it recharges the batteries. It is like eating right, and getting a good night's sleep. That does not mean we should sleep all day, or eat all day. I try to do 20 minute sessions each day as a minimum. It takes me almost 20 minutes to get past / suspend the Five Veils / Hindrances.
The 4 fold Metta-Bhavana is very useful as an object of concentration meditation, because it cultivates a healthy radiant state that builds over time and influences one's surroundings. I just had one of the best days I ever had. It is brutally cold outside, and nothing went well, but we got a lot done.
There is, I believe, also a deeper, pure inner bliss and radiant beauty that is more stable and goes beyond concepts of duality and non-duality. That stable bliss does not depend on anything outside or inside, it just is. It is unborn, non-arisen, uncreated, and unconditioned. As such, it is not subject to the four winds.
Form is Emptiness; and Emptiness is Form. The monist notion of duality and non-duality is another duality. That is what I am thinking right now. As always, my views could be mistaken, and are most certainly incomplete.
Gate Gate. Paragate. Parasamgate. Bodhi Svaha
"Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of men." -- Robert Hunter
. Split wood and it is there.
Raise a stone and you will find it.
R: The joy and bliss of form absorption is healing and useful, it recharges the batteries.
S9: Do you see this absorption as a trance state? Or do you see absorption, per say, as always being a trance-like state. The reason I am asking is because IMO Enlightenment absorbs us completely, as well, leaving no crumbs. Don’t you think?
I definitely see meditation as extremely healthful and healing. For instance, I use watching breath (meditation) as a way to relax during a migraine headache, and this also relaxes the tension in my muscles that would normally accompany such a pain.
Mentally causing tension in our muscles because of pain, or fighting the pain, is almost reflexive, and certainly causes the pain to exacerbate. This starts a cycle of pain contributing to more tension, and tension contributing more pain, circular and building, so as to end up being a spiral of agony. Watch you breath cuts this circle.
I wonder if I couldn’t get you to explain to me, a little further about certain things, like the 5 veil/hindrances and 4 fold Metta-Bhavana? I obviously could Google these, but someone with personal experience in these areas, explaining, always seems (to me anyway) far more accessible.
I think that I would need to have been living off planet, for a long time, not to have run into people speaking of healing and helping that coming from either the white light or the yellow light. But (forgive me), I have always wondered just how much of this wasn’t merely suggestion.
Although, with all of the new findings on the placebo effect not being hocus-pocus, and having witnessed myself how well suggestion actually heals, you would think that I would smarten up, wouldn't you?
I should be more open minded in this area, and start using these tools. Because, it is almost like we have to give our body permission to heal its self, if that makes any sense at/all.
R: There is, I believe, also a deeper, pure inner bliss and radiant beauty that is more stable and goes beyond concepts of duality and non-duality. That stable bliss does not depend on anything outside or inside, it just is. It is unborn, non-arisen, uncreated, and unconditioned. As such, it is not subject to the four winds.
S9: Yes, indeed. I believe many of us on this forum have had glimpses of this ‘Isness’ or ‘Thusness,’ or “Suchness.” (Call it what you will.) The Presence “IS” our very own intimate ‘Essential Being.’
R: Form is Emptiness; and Emptiness is Form. The monist notion of duality and non-duality is another duality.
S: Both language and concept, are the children of the mind, and cannot escape dualism. When you live within mind, you live within comparisons. Empty is a comparison, and so is Monism. As a song lyric sings, "You can't have One without the other." ; ^ )
'Isness’ has absolutely nothing (whatsoever) to hold onto, or to own. "It is abiding in the non-abiding."
R: Quoted: "Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of men." -- Robert Hunter
S9: I always loved the symbol of the “Cornucopia.”
The basket being the symbol of ‘Pure Potential” (AKA ‘Isness.’), and what inevitably flows out in abundance, is finitude, or the dreaming mind.
R: Split wood and it is there.
Raise a stone and you will find it.
S9: Yes, indeed, omnipresence.
Sufi saying: “Everywhere I look, I see the face of God." (AKA “Isness.’)
Thank you, my friend. This was a delightful post. : ^ )
I hope this is not straying to far off topic. We have a few things going here; some might be better in a separate topic. There are two words that are often used as synonyms; but also have distinct meanings. Individual scholars and adepts understand them in different ways. Both are factors of Meditative Absorption {Jhana / Dhyana}.
Piti / priti 喜 {}: Of the two, this arises first in meditation, and is fleeting. Translated as joy, zest, elation, rapture, delight. ecstasy. This is a cetasika or mental concomitant and is part of the fourth aggregate {khanda / skandha} which relates to conditioned volition or motivation.
Sukha 樂 : This arises after piti and is more stable. Translated as bliss, pleasure, happiness, contentment. This is vedana, and belongs to the second aggregate; of feelings or sensations. It is the opoposite of dukkha {pain, suffering, stress, dissatisfaction}.
My understanding is that there are different kinds of bliss. There is the bliss of kama {lust, sense pleasure} that arises from contact with objects of the sense doors. Then there is the meditative bliss that arises from observing or contemplating form without contact. Finally, there is said to be a non-arisen stable bliss that some see as an attribute of spiritual purification {vishuddha} and unbinding {nirvana}.
The last one is controversial. Some see it as an impediment, an outflow that leads one back to binding, and doctrinally tending toward the concept of a perpetual soul. Others see it as a fruit of cultivation of the mind; a purification of the second aggregate, achieved by perfection of the second framework of mindfulness.
Understanding the difference between piti / priti and sukha is something we can gradually glean from practice. Then, whether an inner stable inner bliss that radiates outward is an aspect of waking up, or another trap, is also something we have to resolve for ourselves. I think the best approach is non-attachment; both to views and bliss. There is no problem with tentative views -- they are necessary to function as a person; I suspect clinging to opinions is the problem.
R: The joy and bliss of form absorption is healing and useful, it recharges the batteries.
S9: Do you see this absorption as a trance state? Or do you see absorption, per say, as always being a trance-like state. The reason I am asking is because IMO Enlightenment absorbs us completely, as well, leaving no crumbs. Don’t you think?
...
I wonder if I couldn’t get you to explain to me, a little further about certain things, like the 5 veil/hindrances and 4 fold Metta-Bhavana? I
Thank you, my friend. This was a delightful post. : ^ )
Respectfully,
S9
I am not sure what is a trance. I use absorption as a translation of jhana or dhyana in a Buddhist sense. I see it as a level of concentration in which one tunes out sensory input. People get absorbed in a book, a TV show, a movie, and so on. There is the list of 5 factors I mentioned earlier. People might think Form Absorptions {Rupa Dhyana} these are sublime states only attainable by advanced adepts. I do not think so, they are what they are.
The 4-fold metta bhavana was almost the exclusive focus of my practice from about 2002 to 2007. I have also studied the concept of 5 hindrances or veils as extensively as possible. Metta Bhavana or empathy cultivation, as I see it, is a method of transforming our motivations and creating merit.
The five hindrances are mental obstructions that arise and block concentration.
BTW. my eyes are still getting acclimated to the layout. These are maybe intermediate to advanced topics? Maybe we could start separate threads in this meditation forum on each one?
Panca Nivarana: The Five Hindrances, the pali concept. The same concept in Tiantai Buddhism is 五蓋 {wugai / gogai}: The Five Obstructions or Veils
Metta / Maitri-karuna Bhavana 慈悲修行 {cibei xiuxing / jihi shugyo}. These are also called the Four Immeasurable States or Intangibles 四無量心 {si wuliang xin /shi muryo shin} and the Brahma Vihara -- the abodes of Brahma. The other two are shared joy; mudita 喜心 {xixing / kishin} and equanimity; upekka / upeksha 捨心 {shexin / shashin}.
Thank you for the intellectual stimulation. I have been looking for a place to collegially discuss Dharma with truth seekers.
I think that I would need to have been living off planet, for a long time, not to have run into people speaking of healing and helping that coming from either the white light or the yellow light. But (forgive me), I have always wondered just how much of this wasn’t merely suggestion.
Although, with all of the new findings on the placebo effect not being hocus-pocus, and having witnessed myself how well suggestion actually heals, you would think that I would smarten up, wouldn't you?
I should be more open minded in this area, and start using these tools. Because, it is almost like we have to give our body permission to heal its self, if that makes any sense at/all.
S9, it makes perfect sense. It doesn't really matter whether the "white light" is literally real, or imagined. It is a mental tool for affecting a change in consciousness, which in turn can help the mind "get out of the way" of the body healing. Do you think doctors or medicines heal people? They do not. It is always the body that heals itself. We can help in certain ways by fighting bacteria with medicine, setting bones, removing cancer cells, strengthening or altering certain processes, replacing organs, etc. In spite of all the amazing things we can do, it is still up to the body to heal. The most powerful tool we have for controlling the body is the mind.
I don't find it difficult to believe in so-called miracles. I'm not particularly impressed by them. I have come to understand they are simply cause and effect, like everything else. There are many tricks we can play with our minds, but just because they are tricks doesn't mean they don't work.
I think the problem with using tricks of the mind as tools for healing, is that first you have to believe in the tricks, don't we?
That is if they are tricks…kind of like what we (so called, more sophisticated types) believe about how a witch doctor pulls it off his magic.
But, I have also had it explain to me by others, that we have more than one body, superimposed, one of these being electric, for instance. The Chinese seem to use this particular paradigm, when they speak about chi, and heal people with acupuncture.
I have gone in for acupuncture, with a migraine that would kill, and after those tiny little needles were inserted and twisting only slightly, gone home with absolutely no pain, this lasting for a month, for me anyway.
There is so much we don’t understand.
I guess what I am saying here is, that we may be living on multiple levels (multiple worlds or dream scapes) of which we have lost track and/or perhaps never been acquainted with to begin with, and that perhaps this yellow light, and this white light, is a part of a level with its own laws, and operates consistently, just as legitimately as our physical laws do.
But, hell, I am only trying to be open to this whole new way of thinking, and not yet facile in their uses.
(I have personally seen auras, though. I have also personally witnessed the electricity that moves within our body, and beyond it at times, on more than one occasion. I do not work at these, however, or in these areas of medicine, or study on them…yet.)
I do heartily agree with you, that the body can disrupt its own healing, simply through attitude. Hormones, those tiny little giants, are released with our every thought. We are only beginning to understand how very powerful, and multi-tasked these guys are.
I always enjoy your input, as it is both accurate and stimulating. So thanks, and please keep it coming.
I would say that what comes before Knowing (with a capital K to indicate the Ultimate) is the intention to Know.
S9
Knowing does not require intention. When the insight arises into the unbenefical nature of alcohol use, that insight is direct, it is awakening.
The Eightfold Path is the same. Right intention may set the mind into what is called right concentration but when direct insight occurs (vipassana), no intention is required to see clearly the true nature of things.
How can seeing the true nature of things require intention? The true nature of things is just as it is.
Intention may set a mirror in a certain direction but intention is not required for the mirror to reflect the reality facing it.
And what is the right intention that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thought, directed thought, intention, (mental) fixity, transfixion, focused awareness & verbal fabricators (vitakka & viccara) of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right intention that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
After a while, of course, as I believe to have hinted at, we are looking at our more Essential Self, which is transcendent of becoming, and her material manifestations.
One day, after doing just that, I got up and looked out into the back yard. Everything (trees, flowers, bushes) was surrounded in bright yellow light (It wasn't just sunight, far brighter than that. Sort of how some people describe an aura).
S9
Was there the intention to see the bright yellow aura or is things having bright yellow auras merely their true nature?
S9: Quite true, knowing does not require intention, in the ultimate sense.
But, very often we have to start from where we are in any particular moment. So, we may not always know where we want to go, or how we are going to get there, but we can often intend to leave where we presently are. Our present insight being, "This stinks."
So it is with alcohol. Alcohol will not be given up simply by wishing it to be so, alone. Especially if, there is some addiction involved.
Ask the many 'drinker in excess,' who end up back with alcohol simply because they didn’t replace alcohol with something better, something that gave them even more happiness, or fulfillment without the payback.
You don’t really believe that so many persons continue to drink, just because they have no insight into its destructiveness, do you?
alcohol can help with meditation, just as anything else can for anybody. the mind is the most mind-altering substance that we have, more than even something like D M T, you know! it is so subjective, the mind is amorphous, and so are the effects of the drugs that are dropped into it, like drops of liquid in a pond. when you drop alcohol into the pond of mind it turns red. some people do not like red, and for some people red does not work for them. ultimately, i would definitely say, the greatest intoxication is liberation itself, but that does not exclude the use of alcohol or any other drug from attaining that liberation along the way, it all depends on your subjective vantage point of mind and situation. alcohol, however, for me at least, can have a very oscillating nature, sometimes good, sometimes bad, many times both. and in that alone, you can say it's instructive. sometimes you may even want to torture yourself, ha ha haha, in order to gain some insights, or practice endurance or whatever. alcohol can be a very discursive drug, what i mean is you can get your tongue glowing, and you can come up with many insights and views on life. the one thing i appreciate about drugs is that they can take you to places that make you view your life from a very different lens, and offer different views. well anyways i'm just rambling now, but though alcohol can be beneficial, like i said the best drug to take is yourself.
I would actually like to tell my mother how upsetting it is that she's drunk all the time but feel that my past behavior has obliterated my credibility on that particular topic.
As someone who spent almost two years (19-21) on benders every weekend I don't think my past behaviour would prevent me from telling someone how upsetting it is that they are constantly drunk. If anything, I think it would help in telling them how it is affecting others because I'd been there and seen how I had hurt my loved ones.
I think you have an advantage because your past behaviour (whatever that may be) gives you an insight that someone who's never been there will never have.
Apologies for sounding presumptious or lecturing. I just think you're not giving yourself enough credit to do it.
Respectfully,
Raven
Edited to add:
I just re-read this and realise it sounds quite naive against what some of you have discussed. I want to emphasise that I am not trying to make out that I went through something you all don't understand. I almost deleted this but I left it because I really DO want Lyssa to see it and (hopefully) understand that I was answering from a point of empathy and compassion, not snobbery. And once again I truly apologise if I did not convey this correctly
I agree. Sometimes our weakest moments in life, can be our greatest lessons, and can give us the compassion we need, and experience required, in order to help others in some specific way. (Mercy comes from many directions.)
In a way, I almost feel that our own weaknesses may be a calling, if you will, not that much different than what a priest may feel. (A heart felt insight.)
None of us can do everything, but all of us can do something…to aid miserable mankind.
'Moderate' drinking ends when you can't put the cork back in the bottle. If you are easily addicted to caffeine or tobacco, you may find alcohol becomes a problem.
''So you're taking these pills
For to fill up your soul
And you're drinking them down with cheap alcohol''
Alcohol makes some mellow, and others violent, and I guess we all know ourselves well enough to know what alcohol does to us and how much it takes to have an effect.
Anyone depressed should avoid alcohol completely, and certainly not be drinking when on antibiotics and 'drinking them down with cheap alcohol'!
Aside from my vows, I never did bother much with alcohol as it seems to have very little effect on me, aside from the hangover. One anaesthetist told me I am a rare case as he administered enough anaesthetic to knock out a horse. Come to think of it, maybe I should try ketamine ! LOL
If alcohol is negatively affecting your life then seek help. If not, then imo you are within the realms of 'moderation'... for now.
The problem (in a western, alcohol-orientated society) with giving up completely is that you risk becoming a) an awkward guest, and b) completely consumed with how virtuous you are for not drinking. 'Hi, what do you do then?', 'I'm a tee-totaller, and considerably more holy than thou...'. It becomes just another ego trip, albeit a subtle one, and a physically healthy one!
If you do choose not to drink, that is great, but I would suggest that this should be a natural evolution, not something you arbitarily impose on yourself because you think that's what the 5th precept means.
I write this from the perspective of someone with several alcoholics in my immediate family, so I'm hardly the demon drink's biggest fan, and I don't take this lightly.
As a practical tip to other westerners who struggle with this, a 2-drink ceiling helps you get through most low-key social events without raised eyebrows or social pressure, and without unduly intefering with the next morning's meditation.
EDIT: my final point; some people expressed surprise that any Buddhist's would drink at all... Surely Buddhism accepts practitioners who are not yet 'perfect' in their deeds???? Or do we need to have completely dispensed with all craving and attachments before starting out?
I don't see any problem with drinking per se. Even lay vows permit it as long as you don't go overboard, the reasoning being that if you become intoxicated you are much, much more likely to break the other vows (particularly the S-E-X one). As a monk, of course, I can't tipple even a little (unless it's in a practice context), but I've never had the slightest difficulty in asking someone for a soft drink or mineral water. I've never been much of a drinker anyway, so personally it's not a problem either. I think just being up front with people always is the best way to do things anyway, whatever you're doing. If you don't give someone an attitude, you're not likely to get one back!
Even lay vows permit it as long as you don't go overboard,
All the lay vows I have seen prohibit intoxicants, not just intoxication. I would be interested to see a version which permits intoxicants. Do you have a source for that?
Pratimoksha, Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows I have taken all prohibit intoxicants. The exception you mention is during tantric practice.
We don’t just need chemicals in order to get intoxicated. Metaphorically speaking, a huge ego can be very intoxicating.
“Look at me, how very great I am, and so pure,” is a real head-trip, and probably just as addicting as any drug we can think of. Probably even more dangers than a glass of wine, because it gets a pass without close scrutiny to its problematic effects.
We prance, and display our goodness. Can you spell narcissism? ; ^ )
Keeping a close eye on our selves, and our subtle motivations, is probably the best remedy for overdoing anything.
What is the purpose in drinking alcohol? Water is all we need. When you take alcohol, you are seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. If there is a mindful reason to tip a glass, fine, then do so in full awareness. Such a reason might arise once in a blue moon (and I'm being VERY generous here), but in 99% of all cases, we are only making excuses for our attachments.
The point isn't how "bad" alcohol is. The point is, why are we drawn to it in the first place? The only reason to drink alcohol is to alter our mind. It can be as innocent as simply trying to relax in an uncomfortable social setting, or to help loosen up our inhibitions. In all cases, we drink to change the moment from what it is, into something different. We are, in some way, unsatisfied with the way we are, so we attempt to alter ourselves. Where we fail is not in the effects of taking alcohol (although depressants do run contrary to the point of Buddhism, which is to awaken), it is in missing the opportunity to awaken right here and now, accepting the present moment as it is, without judgment or reserve.
We don't need alcohol. Instead of relying on an external substance as a crutch, we can learn to expand our consciousness and improve ourselves. Alcohol takes us farther from this goal, rather than closer, providing, at best, a temporary "quick fix." In the end, nothing is gained.
yeah but if we pursue that reasoning to its logical conclusion; I don't need to make any effort preparing nice meals, and I don't need my wife to tell me she loves me now and then; I can subsist perfectly adequately without this... yet for some reason I feel they enrichen life.
I realise I'm sounding pro-alcohol here; in 'real life' I'm actually quite anti-booze, but I am also aware that we are risking falling into the traps mentioned above when we get hung up on it one way or the other.
My reasons are not moral reasons, however. Nor do I following rules, unthinkingly, because they were written down somewhere without any thought of flexibility towards circumstance.
It is in overdoing anything that it becomes a problem. (It becomes a distraction.) I would include under this umbrella, the over doing of the moral rules, too. (If everythings all black and white, it becomes an impossibility, which also distracts our minds, greatly.)
This would include being attached to the 'LETTER of the LAW' to a large extent, (a perfectionism that causes suffering), either in your own life, and/or even goes on to push your own ideas down the throats of our brothers and sisters, (causing the suffering that comes out of arguing, and harsh judgments).
I believe the Buddha wanted us to let a little bit of this everyday foolishness go, and use this same attention and energy to seek Liberation.
Attachment to the concept of no drinking, at/all is very often just riddled with negative emotions. I see this as a much bigger problem than a small glass of wine occasionally.
Because:
One guy drinks a glass of wine and just lets it go, forgets about it in minutes. But, a person all tangled up in his rules has his work ahead of him.
Almost everything we do is seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, even drinking water comes under that definition.
I have a good friend who has always been highly wired. When it is time to go to bed, he can’t just seem to quiet down easily. I told him to try drinking a small glass of wine at bedtime, and it has worked like a charm.
There is actually very little that we do, because this is the way that the mind works, that isn’t some kind of attachment. Even our Spiritual path can so easily pick up this attachment, that we need to be ever vigilant. (AKA Spiritual Materialism.)
AD: The point isn't how "bad" alcohol is. The point is, why are we drawn to it in the first place?
S9: Yes indeed, my friend, but isn’t that the case with most everything we do? Isn’t Liberation more to do with stepping aside of this “river of happenings,” and simply not owning them?
AD: The only reason to drink alcohol is to alter our mind.
S9: Absolutely everything alters the mind. How you breathe, if too shallow alters your mind. Altering mind isn’t the problem, after all, isn’t that why we meditate? I think that it is outcomes, where we must keep our attention, don’t you?
AD: We drink to change the moment from what it is, into something different.
S9: Every day we do this; cause a moment to change in some way. We might do this simply by crossing the street. That is the way finitude works, it is constantly becoming the next moment through change. I believe we must look a little deeper to discover where the real problem in this lies.
Now, I will give you that drinking isn’t a direct path to Liberation. But stopping drinking isn’t either, or AA would be full of Buddhists. ; ^ )
If you are easily addicted to caffeine or tobacco, you may find alcohol becomes a problem.
Hi, Yeshe.
Sorry to disagree with you again today but I just wanted to point out that the 'addictive personality' idea you're describing here is a myth and is no longer accepted by the medical community at large.
What is the purpose in drinking alcohol? Water is all we need. When you take alcohol, you are seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. If there is a mindful reason to tip a glass, fine, then do so in full awareness. Such a reason might arise once in a blue moon (and I'm being VERY generous here), but in 99% of all cases, we are only making excuses for our attachments.
Whoa! Hold on there, A.D. There are people, many people, who have the occasional glass of wine simply because they like the flavour of it and leave it at that. It is no different from drinking a glass of juice for its flavour or a glass of cold water for its refreshing qualities. The above paragraph that I quoted seems to me to illustrate more of a problem with alcohol for you than it is for those who drink moderately or on occasion.
The point isn't how "bad" alcohol is. The point is, why are we drawn to it in the first place? The only reason to drink alcohol is to alter our mind. It can be as innocent as simply trying to relax in an uncomfortable social setting, or to help loosen up our inhibitions. In all cases, we drink to change the moment from what it is, into something different. We are, in some way, unsatisfied with the way we are, so we attempt to alter ourselves.
Holy cow, A.D! Do you really think in such black or white, absolutist terms? Or are you just trying to play Devil's Advocate? Because surely you realize that there are people in this world who can wholesomely enjoy 3 or 4 glasses of wine a year for no other reason than simple enjoyment. Three years ago I had a glass of red wine with dinner at my nephew's wedding in August, another glass of red wine during Christmas dinner with my family (some of whom abstain as a result of alcoholism), and another glass of red wine the following summer while in Montreal enjoying a cheese plate at a restaurant with friends. I can assure you that I wasn't trying to 'alter my mind', or 'relax in an uncomfortable social setting'. I didn't have a glass of wine 'to help loosen up [my] inhibitions', or 'to change the moment from what it [was], into something different'. I wasn't attempting to 'alter [myself]' in any way because I was 'unsatisfied with the way really [am] nor did I drink those glasses of wine in any other unskillful way. There are some foods that I enjoy having a glass of wine with in the same way I prefer to drink Coca Cola or black tea with Indian food and Oolong tea with Chinese food. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, for heaven's sake.
My reasons are not moral reasons, however. Nor do I following rules, unthinkingly, because they were written down somewhere without any thought of flexibility towards circumstance.
It is in overdoing anything that it becomes a problem. (It becomes a distraction.) I would include under this umbrella, the over doing of the moral rules, too. (If everything all black and white, it becomes an impossibility, which also distracts our minds, greatly.)
This would include being attached to the 'LETTER of the LAW' to a large extent, (a perfectionism that causes suffering), either in your own life, and/or even goes on to push your own ideas down the throats of our brothers and sisters, (causing the suffering that comes out of arguing, and harsh judgments).
I believe the Buddha wanted us to let a little bit of this everyday foolishness go, and use this same attention and energy to seek Liberation.
Attachment to the concept of no drinking, at/all is very often just riddled with negative emotions. I see this as a much bigger problem than a small glass of wine occasionally.
Because:
One guy drinks a glass of wine and just lets it go, forgets about it in minutes. But, a person all tangled up in his rules has his work ahead of him.
My point is, a mind content with itself never finds cause to pick up a glass of wine. It rests in the now and needs nothing. Such an individual eats when she is hungry, drinks when she is thirsty, rests when she is tired. There is no attraction to sensual fulfillment. Our senses do not need all the stimulation they are accustomed to receiving in Western civilization.
Note, I never said they are "bad." I make no judgment on the "virtue" of abstinence, or "sin" of indulgence. I am not implying we should all be perfect monks and nuns and never sip wine, eat chocolate, or watch TV. The fact is, however, those are all methods we use for distracting the senses. A perfected mind has no use for such distractions. Do you think Ghandi wasted time on such trivialities? How about Mother Theresa? The Dailai Lama? Buddha, himself? They all had much better things to do. Our addiction to sensual gratification, no matter how trivial, is not helping us.
I'm nowhere near the model of perfection I am discussing, especially at this time in my life. There was a time, however, not long ago, when I was pretty close. I have to tell you, I was never happier. Craving--no matter how tiny and harmless the craving--is still suffering. When every moment is completely fulfilled, and you want for nothing; that is ultimate happiness.
Isn't that the point of all this, anyway?
Please understand, I am not saying we should deny our senses. That would be something completely different. In fact, it is really quite the opposite. The world is a cascade of sensual experiences, every moment we breathe. The point is to embrace what is right there before us, rather than run to something "better."
If you have heard Thich Nhat Hahn speak of his experience of eating, you will understand where I am coming from. When Thay eats, say, a carrot, he eats it with his whole being. He doesn't eat just a carrot, he also eats the rain and soil the carrot grew from, the hands of the gardener who tended it, the wood of the bowl it was carried in, and shoes of the one who carried it. All his senses participate in eating, from the rich orange color, the earthy smell, the texture of the skin, the sound of the crunch, to the flavor of the meat. There is no thought of how he might enjoy something else more. How could anything be better than eating a carrot? If you eat with your whole being, it is impossible.
When we are constantly mindful of our choices, there is never any desire to consume something that does not enrich us. While this may sound foreign to us, it is actually the most natural way to live. All the "extra" stuff we are constantly surrounded by are the aberrations. We've just forgotten how to be "normal."
Sorry to disagree with you again today but I just wanted to point out that the 'addictive personality' idea you're describing here is a myth and is no longer accepted by the medical community at large.
That's OK! LOL
I can only speak from my own experience, some of which was working briefly in psychiatric wards and outpatients, and from knowing far too many people suffering chronic depression. I tend to think that depression can lead to addictions as the person seeks a way through it. I also see quite a few who move from one addiction to another - and some who end up 'addicted' to one religion or another.
I don't take much notice of the medical community's latest theories. Look waht happens with wine - couple of glasses of red wine is good for you, then any equivalent amount of alcohol from any drink, now even the smallest amount is harmful, tommorrow who knows. A lot of what we are told is simply the view based on the latest research.
I also see here in the UK a medical profession with a huge addiction and suicide problem, so I think I'd rather trust what I see for myself.
Not withstanding the physical element of addiction, I sometimes think that most addictions may also go back to a chronic lack of imagination, (or what I have often called, skimming the surface of life, and missing out on the depth, which is right there all of the time.)
Q: “Dying of thirst beside the river.”
In other words, when we try to find ALL of our gratifications in a single source, this will naturally lead to an overdoing of this one ingredient in our lives.
We all need to be gratified in some way in order to enjoy our life. It is actually natural to have joy in order to avoid despondency.
Very often, this one source of enjoyment begins to lose its initial appeal, as the body habituates itself to this one joy. We might then need another drink to get the original high, or two pieces of pizza to give us that same slam of stimulation. I believe that this is because the body instinctively moves us about, for health reasons, both mentally and physically, using the carrot of pleasure to do this. (And, of course it opposite, pain, to cause avoidance.) Without these two stimuli we would not survive as a species.
So, it is “getting stuck” in one source of pleasure that leads to overdoing that one source.
Often times, people get stuck because they are what I refer to as people who have trouble with self-starting. In other words, these people are waiting for something to come from the outside (of themselves) in order to move them along.
Buddhism is a wonderful tool for teaching us to take the reigns in our own lives. Buddhism is a tool for getting unstuck.
Buddhism says don’t wait around for a “savior” in the form of alcohol, or pizza, or even new friends to tell you what to do next. This makes you a victim of circumstance.
Be your own savior, and start right now in this very moment.
You can stop this running after disappointment, simply by seeing more clearly. Clear sight is a natural cure.
Being fairly new to Buddhism, I was quite surprised at all the justifications for drinking alcohol. However, this IS in the 'New Buddhist' section, and in a way, all this talk sort of 'releases' me to be more honest about my own shortcomings.
I still struggle with alcohol. When I DO drink, I feel so ashamed and hopeless afterward.
It's like a war going on inside my head. On the one side, is a committee cheering me on to get shit-faced. On the other side, a committee encouraging me to not take that first drink, and seek better ways of finding peace from my pain and suffering.
I have plenty of justifications at the ready. But I will address those in other threads, because I believe they deserve a place of their own.
First post here and I'm not a Buddhist, though I'm interested in what you guys have to say.
But as a recovered alcoholic, I've enjoyed reading your posts, particularly AD who has given me some great insights into the nature of my 'disease'; I've got to stop eating all those chocolates, smoking, caffeine and probably lots of other stuff now haven't I?
I'm also not anti-alcohol, I leave that business to the temperance organisations, and when I'm hosting guests I still tend to try and force alcohol on them - more than what they want usually - because I find it difficult to believe that most 'normal' people don't want to over-indulge. :rolleyes:
However, being a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, its suggested that we meditate as part of the programme we work; so to learn how to meditate I enrolled in a Buddhist meditation class, titled The Meaning of Life, which has fuelled my interest in what seems on the face of it, a very modern religion.
Anyway, its good to be here, I do regular breathing meditation, and I just wanted to 'connect' with the forum I guess.
I wouldn’t call what I said about alcohol a justification.
(But maybe I am justifying, my justification..."Oh no!" ; ^ )
I believe that my point is more that, if you are having big trouble with alcohol, “Don’t kill the messenger.”
In a way, alcohol has come to “Wake” you up (a messenger) to the fact that something isn’t right in Eden, just like Adam and Eve should get away with blaming the snake that gave them the apple.
Like you have alluded to, a lack of honesty is actually our worst enemy. This lack of honesty, or our inability to face honest facts, straight on, more frequently appears in how we deal with ourselves, than it ever does in how we deal with others. Perhaps that is why, metaphorically, the Devil is known as the ‘Father of Lies.’
If there is one person here on this forum that doesn’t have any shortcomings, or two, than he is probably truly a very good liar, as well. ; ^ )
If I were you, I would take a piece of paper and write down what your head is telling you, about good reasons to drink, and why you are absolutely worthless for drinking. In this way, you create some distance between these thoughts, and yourself.
(Later you won’t need a paper/pencil to do this same thing, as you will have formed a good habit of distancing yourself from thoughts.)
The ability to step back and investigate these thoughts, objectively, will serve you as a very good tool for both strengthening and clarity. This positive habit will serve you all the way from here, exactly where you are standing right now, all the way to your very last moment b/4 Liberation. This companion will serve you well.
You see, I am guessing that, right now you are too closely identifying with these thoughts, as in, “My thoughts,” or even worse, “These thoughts are 'me'.”
This is simply not true.
These thoughts are actually more like flies buzzing around your head, and you can easily pick up a rolled newspaper, and swat them away. (Figuratively speaking.)
Seeing this small thing, dis-identifying with thoughts, has massive connotations for your life, and is quite liberating. You will be able to use your newfound 'peace' as a kind of fuel to carry you even further. : ^ )
Many forms of both 'meditation' and 'mindfullness' are simply further extentions on this small exercise, but on a far more subtle level, IMO.
T: I've got to stop eating all those chocolates, smoking, caffeine, and probably lots of other stuff now haven't I?
S9: A lot of our problems in life are tied together with invisible strings into mysterious little bundles of pain. So that, when you clear up one small thing, very often a dozen others bothersome traits will bite the dust at the very same time. Otherwise, it would be a forever job, at least in my life. ; ^ )
Another factor is, when you add good things to your life, like meditation, the stuff that hasn’t been working up until now, often just loses its luster and appeal. So you don’t really have to give them up, at/all. You just don't want them anymore.
Buddhism is an all-purpose tool, much like a Swiss Army knife. It can serve as a philosophy, a psychology, a metaphysic, a religion, and just good common sense, so take your pick as to what serves you best, right now. You may in time find out that Buddhism serves you in multiple ways, beyond what you can imagine possible, but all useful and enriching in their own ways.
If you have trouble sitting at first, try doing it in very short and enjoyable intervals.
In time you will see that you can multi-task meditate, too, in many, many ways. Some people enjoy walking while meditating, etc.
Like I say, there are quite a few different ways to meditate. One size need not fit all.
I meditate while doing my chores here on the farm, and find the more tedious chores become more enjoyable in this way.
I also meditate when I do my workouts in the gym every other day, and find that I have had fewer injuries because of this added attention to detail.
Meditation can become your “best friend” given time.
"It's the gift that keeps on giving."
I even meditate while i'm standing in line at the grocery store. Done correctly, meditation can become a way of life.
When I first started meditation on my breath, I had a lot of trouble remembering to do it.
“Darn/darn/darn!"
My monkey mind would just dance off, who knew where, for a long periods of time, unnoticed. I even went so far as to put an elastic band on my wrist, a bright red one, so that I would notice it and be called back in that way. But, fear not my new friend, it gets easier with time.
Incidentally, I am a recovering intellectual. ; ^ ) Yes, really!
I think you'll find the basic tenets of AA have a lot in common with Buddhism. For one thing, they both emphasize the need to take responsibility for your own life and to learn how to create the causes for being happy. And it doesn't really matter what label you put on it anyway. What matters is developing the ability to make the right decisions that will result in happiness and peace of mind. Also remember that we are all addicted to samsara, i.e. our attachments.
I don't think the natural state of the mind can be created or destroyed by alcohol in reflex to someone's comment. The nature of mind is still there. It is not the content it is the seer I think. Even if you are in heaven or hell the nature of mind is still there.
If you already are a drinker and begin to meditate (many) people often find that they cannot quit cold turkey. The alcohol will affect you of course as always but you may still meditate.
Its the same as if you have insomnia. Does lack of sleep improve meditation? No. Can you meditate if you have insomnia? Yes.
I think you'll find the basic tenets of AA have a lot in common with Buddhism. For one thing, they both emphasize the need to take responsibility for your own life and to learn how to create the causes for being happy. And it doesn't really matter what label you put on it anyway.
Palzang
Hi Palzang, I do see the similarities between the 12 Step Programme of AA and Buddhism, but I didn't want to mention that for fear of you guys thinking I was a 'nutter'.
I think its the similarities that attracts me to Buddhism; I already aspire to live along the lines of a philosophical/spiritual programme and I know it works, but being a naturally greedy git, I want MORE.
The 4 Noble truths are similar to Step 1 and 2 which requires some humility, the 8 fold path (I think its 8; right thinking, etc) are like Step 3 and the general AA way of avoiding wrong thinking and wrong actions (because, for us, stinking thinking leads to stinking drinking ).
Oh, and Step 11 contains meditation; something that I have done regularly with varying success, for about six months now, but I know I've just got to do it; and I do; twice a day for about 20 to 30 minutes each time.
I read recently the writings of the Roman philosopher Seneca, and he said 'being spiritual is mostly about being good', and I try to make that my philosophy these days. I've been such a bad person, and I have, that I feel I have this overwhelming need to create some good karma, as you guys may say.
Anyway, I plan to visit our local Buddhist centre next month (I've got a lot on this month) and start doing some proper structured investigation into Buddhism. At present I've done a short Buddhist meditation course called the Meaning of Life, and 'Dave the Buddhist' had some extremely interesting things to say which struck a lot of chords with me. I've done a fair amount of reading and listening to MP3 downloads of Monks giving talks on various subjects; it still surprises me how applicable Buddhism is to life in the 21st Century. And of course I'm here!
And apologies for hijacking this post which was (I think) about meditation and alcohol, which for me isn't a problem because I'm tee-total. :hrm:
I, for one, feel that you have added a lot of good ideas to this conversation. Personal experience shared, is always a learning opportunity. : ^ )
Sometimes the most interesting things happen, when we stray a wee bit from an original question. It adds a little spice. Being too strict about sticking to any one topic can be a little stiff (unnatural), uncomfortable, and uninteresting too. IMPO
So when someone says, “Wow, that make me think of…the time, or the quote, then “Thank Goodness” for a little life being injected into the conversation. So thanks, for adding your 2 cents and...please, don’t jam up, worrying about how we might judge you.
Buddhism throughout history has had a (life saving) capacity to make itself relevant. In ancient times, when it was introduced into new countries, or to new peoples, it adjusted to what could be understood and implemented without loosing any of its own intrinsic high qualities of wisdom. So now in these days, it has used vehicles such as psychology, and medicine, (to name a few) in order to become useful to a people, and understandable on their terms.
Of course there are those among us who fear that this may be a ‘watering down’ of Buddhism, (A commercialization of her tenants).
But, I say to that, “Fear not,” Buddhism has proven its resourcefulness, and its capacity to remain standing for centuries. (starting in 500 BCE) Most of these new variations are simply entry-level introductions to a system that travels vastly more deeply given time. And people need this time. We cannot all just jump into the deep end of the pool without first learning to swim, now, can we?
I think Tosh, that you will find that Buddhism isn’t a short-lived pleasure, dying out like so many other pursuits, and leaving you nursing your own disappointment. It doesn't pieta out, because it lacks the fuel to continue. But, rather, Buddism is a "way of life" that grows as you grow, ever new, and exciting.
What we are looking for here is, Satisfaction, (total satisfaction, for once) that comes and stays.
The great thing is, that we don't have to hold our breath, waiting for the one big prize given only when we reach our final goal. Buddhism passes out little gifts of well being, and relief from suffering, all along the way. It is a little like those people who stand on the side lines, passing food and drink to the marathon runners.
Thank you S9, that was interesting. I'm a bit OCD-ish; I didn't realise that till I gave up drinking; so I expect to be Enlightened by about this time next year. :rolleyes:
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Discernment is not a really good translation for prajna; just the best one I can think of. Pra-jna is what discerns; it is not the discerned. Jna means to know, in the direct sense, including but not limited to the biblical. Pra can be similar to pro, pre, or per; it means go forth or forward, before, in front of, and indicates what puts forth the action of verb; makes the action go forward. So, prajna is sort of the prerequisite one must have to discern correctly and know for oneself {jna}. Maybe prajna could mean keen perception and judgement. The Chinese word used to translate prajna means intelligent.
Other people can tell us whether they think we should drink or not. However, unless we are motivated to win their approval, it is unlikely to have much of an effect. Or sometimes it has a bad effect; I have seen people try to conceal alcohol use to avoid disapproval; or even drink as a way of defying what others suggest. So, what needs to be discerned here is the influence that alcoholic beverages have on one's life. Also, one's inner motive; why one drinks. Is the motive to drink wholesome; neutral, or an affliction?
That is my best take on it right now, my view might be mistaken or incomplete.
That {the only thing worse than a drunk is a reformed drunk...} is an old joke. What it refers to is a person that quits; then wants everyone else to quit too, lectures others all the time and so on. That is not really full recovery.
I see.
I would actually like to tell my mother how upsetting it is that she's drunk all the time but feel that my past behavior has obliterated my credibility on that particular topic.
That is a tough one, even if we have credibility on the subject. If I had to deal with that, I think I would first try to work on my 'upset' feelings. I would do compassion {kariuna} cultivation; to empath-ize. Also patience or forbearance; the word is khanti / kshanti. The Chinese word for that means endurance. Someone said it means patience for people or things that do not really deserve patience.
Those are the things I would do to get my heart in the right place; so I could let the person know my affection for them is unconditional. Then the other thing I would do is to try to view the situation objectively; meditation on emptiness and a couple different mantras help me do that.
In my experience; the person abusing alcohol needs to 'see it.' Prodding can do what I suggested in another post; cause defiance or concealment. I have also seen rare situations in which a coercive intervention was called for. In those cases, a detached person with training might have to do it.
Good luck. Sometimes there is no right answer; certainly finding it is not easy. I once had an elderly neighbor who was drinking and driving and posing a danger, among other things. After doing the above cultivations, I spoke with his doctor; who I had found out was the only person the elderly neighbor would listen to.
From personal experience ive found that in a small quantitys combined with a practise of mindfullness it can be rather helpfull as you become futher aware...however still its not a reconmended practise if one drinks try to practise mindfullness whilst doing so.
I would say that what comes before Knowing (with a capital K to indicate the Ultimate) is the intention to Know. Of course, these are just two sides of the one coin, or Buddha Nature, both intention and Knowing, and both are given. They are not something that we do. They flow through us. We intend to Know simply because we are unsatisfied, or in an unsatisfactory state, which is that of becoming.
To contemplate is to look directly. What we continue to look directly at, at least at first, is what is left when illusions or defilements are erased, or we discontinue identifying with these illusions.
After a while, of course, as I believe to have hinted at, we are looking at our more Essential Self, which is transcendent of becoming, and her material manifestations.
Intellect is one of our paths. It is not who we are.
There is absolutely nothing that we do in our lives that cannot be done unwisely, even love. But, no one is likely to tell you to abstain from love. A wise and healthy life is all about balance, IMO.
Warm regards,
S9
It has been a long day; so take this with a grain of salt. I might be missing the pint, er point. There is prajna in the sense of ordinary, discriminative intelligence. There is also the prajna of perceiving Emptiness or non-duality. In this case. whether to use intoxicants or not, both come into play. I think. The discriminating part might be, if one must drink, to at least go for the good stuff.
Then there is the danger of become a puritanical, overbearing, anti-drinking crusader. That might be where detachment and discernment of Emptiness could come into play. The thing is, I decided against one-ness of my life and a bottle of Cabernet.
"Whoever is a drunkard, broke, and destitute, Dragged by thirst from bar to bar, Sinking into debt like a stone in water Into bewilderment quickly plunges." -- Sigalovada Sutta
My bad. I was speaking on multiple levels because of something you hinted at, or at least, I thought you hinted at. It made me think that you were speaking in a multi-level way, also. But, apparently you were not doing that.
So no wonder you thought that I was out there flying around your head. I was. ; ^ )
R: There is prajna in the sense of ordinary, discriminative intelligence.
S9: Yes, that is certainly one of the levels.
R: There is also the prajna of perceiving Emptiness or non-duality.
S9: Yup, that is another level.
R: In this case, whether to use intoxicants or not, both come into play. I think.
S9: I guess that would depend upon why you were getting intoxicated, and how. I know that if I write poetry for a whole afternoon, I can get ‘high-as-a-kite’ on it.
I remember having done just that some years back with my sister. We both would sit at the dining room table and write/write/write.
One day, after doing just that, I got up and looked out into the back yard. Everything (trees, flowers, bushes) was surrounded in bright yellow light (It wasn't just sunight, far brighter than that. Sort of how some people describe an aura).
Now I realize that it was probably some kind of a Satori. But, such things have happened too often in conjunction with my writing for me not to see some connection there. It may have something to do with me concentrating intensely, or something. I don’t know.
R: The discriminating part might be, if one must drink, to at least go for the good stuff. . Or it might be to use good judgment, which in my case, meant to abstain.
S9: Yes, that is only sensible. If you deny yourself every pleasure, however, than that would be its own form of foolishness. Ask any anorexic, about the sickness of abstaining in excess.
However, you must keep a sharp eye on yourself, and know your own limits. This isn’t a game of pretend. For instance, I know that I can’t allow myself to bring a bag of Oreos into the house…or all is lost. You wouldn’t believe how many good reasons there are for me to have another one.
: ^ )
R: Then there is the danger of become a puritanical, overbearing, anti-drinking crusader.
S9: I have a friend who defines fundamentalist Christians as the people who believe that no one should have any fun…that fun should be stumped out of existence.
What ever happened to, “...that we may having life more abundantly?”
Now we just have to figure our what abundant means…it certainly doesn’t mean, “More is always better.” Ask anyone with a tummy ache, from eating too much cheesecake.
; ^ )
R: That might be where detachment and discernment of Emptiness could come into play.
S9: It certainly did for me, in this way. Someone who is basically satisfied (comfortable in his own skin) is not so desperate for the so-called ‘band-aid solutions.’
But, what the mind apprehends and calls “Emptiness,” is actually “Fullness of Spirit,” or our “Original Face,” or "Satifaction within the Wholeness of Being."
Warm regards,
S9
Actually, I think we were on the same page. My brain was just tired. Also, I get very technical, it annoys some of my cyber colleagues.
The levels of concentration meditation describe that. When one is in access concentration, odd, scary vision / voice things can happen. I think, in Zen, these are called Makyos, 魔鄕 -- the Mara Heaven, a kind of false attainment. That is the highest heaven in realm of lusty desire; the kama dhatu.
In rupa jhana / dhyana 禪 {zen} or 禪定 {zenjo}; form or fine material absorption:
Vittaka / Vitarka 尋: Directed attention, discursive thought
Vicara 伺: Heightened or rapt attention & analysis.
Piti / priti 喜: Ecstatic Joy
Sukha 樂 : Blissful feeling.
Ekagatta / ekagrata 一緣住 : One pointed abiding.
The arising of those mental factors would be the same as the first Brahma, Fine Material, or Form Meditative Heaven {rupa dhatu}. I am not as familiar with the Soto Zen terminology; that is something I am going to look at.
Learning how to get into the highly concentrated meditative absorption states, and arousing natural highs, has been very important, vital to my healing. It has its place in the bigger picture. The more non-directed expansive spatial awareness, mindfulness, is important too. Concentration and mindfulness, for me work side by side.
On drinking alcohol, I neither indulge indulge nor abstain. The stuff aggravates my medical condition, so I simply lost the desire to drink alcohol. That relates to my joke above about reformed alcoholics. Indulgence and are abstention are two sides of the same coin; the same infatuation. Alcohol is just irrelevant to me, right now. I never think about it. I think that is where you were going too?
Isn't this the ultimate goal with all sense pleasures?
I am still traveling through abstentions (on the way to irrelevance) with alcohol, which is necessary. I've been told that the mechanics of the trip, which involve letting neural pathways become dormant) takes three or four years.
Our tendency is to avoid uncomfortable, hard things and seek comfortable, easy things. It's a childhood response, and as children it's a survival tool. If we spend our whole lives seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, however, we suffer for it. No amount of pleasure will ever be enough to bring satisfaction. Recognizing this is the ticket for stepping off the carousel. We are ruled by the pain of our cravings and the pleasure of fulfilling them, but the ride goes on and on and takes us nowhere.
At first it seems that pleasure is the enemy, because we identify it as the cause of our suffering. As an example, we drink alcohol, we get drunk, we suffer. If we have a drinking problem, our whole lives suffer. We blame the alcohol, and associate the pleasure of drinking with our suffering. We misplaced the real source of the problem, which is the craving. The craving isn't just for alcohol. Alcohol is incidental to our problem, our "drug of choice". If we don't realize this, recovery is much harder and far less likely to succeed.
The problem is there is something inside that makes us crave something outside. The magic of Buddhist meditation is that it gets us into the moment, where nothing is missing, nothing is needed. It's all about acceptance, or surrender. We surrender to the present moment, to our alignment in the Universe. Here we are, here is the world. This is the way it is. Whatever we happen to be feeling, no matter how uncomfortable, we accept. Whatever is happening around us, no matter how chaotic, we accept. We accept our craving, our anger, our hurt, our humanity, and just let it go.
By acknowledging our imperfections, we tap into universal perfection. There is nothing that needs to be done. We don't need to be stronger, or have more willpower, or be more courageous. Those are traits that come naturally when we surrender.
Have you ever played with one of those Chinese finger puzzles? It's a little woven tube you stick your fingers in, and the more you pull the tighter its grip becomes. The only way to release yourself is to stop struggling. So often in life, we assume we must struggle and suffer our way through, until one day we are happy and free. We have it completely backwards! We're already happy and free, if we'd only stop struggling long enough to see!
That sounds reasonable. Quitting cigarettes was like that for me. Even to this day, after almost eight years, once in a blue moon I find myself in a situation that triggers a craving. It's more of a memory than a real craving, like an automated response. The brain is a remarkable beast, isn't it?
~ AD
Sitting meditation helped me a lot. It opened up an inner bliss, so that I felt blissful amidst a very discouraging situation. Also, the metta bhavana meditation was very helpful.
Thank you for this information. I will read about these.
Some years back, my Guru at the time said that, when we became more sensitive because of our meditation, we would begin to notice ourselves developing some powers, probably what some people call ESP type powers becoming more apparent, but that we shouldn’t let these powers side track us, or let them become an obstacle on the path.
I have seen more than my share of people fall into these worlds of the imagination, and not be able to keep their feet back on the ground easily, because of it. No worry about me doing that.
He also said that, you could be bound by certain wonderful states, states such as tranquility. They are so very pleasant, that you would not want to let go of them, but these were also merely states of the mind, or imagination. Some people include a Satori as one of these pleasant states.
Perhaps these states are a little like the synthetic states that we merely touch upon with the use of booze, and drugs. But, these states (both imaginative or synthetic) are all traps, simply because they remain within duality, and because of that they cannot be maintained. In other words, they come and go.
They will certainly lead us back to suffering, when indulged, and most probably in a more weakened state than b/4 their use. It is difficult to deal with suffering when it is in juxtaposition with pleasure of such an extreme, because suffer too will than seem extreme in contrast.
There is a saying: If the Gods really want to punish you, first they take you up to heaven, let you taste of it, and then they send you back to earth.
Warm Regards,
S9
Your teacher is wise. The joy and bliss of form absorption is healing and useful, it recharges the batteries. It is like eating right, and getting a good night's sleep. That does not mean we should sleep all day, or eat all day. I try to do 20 minute sessions each day as a minimum. It takes me almost 20 minutes to get past / suspend the Five Veils / Hindrances.
The 4 fold Metta-Bhavana is very useful as an object of concentration meditation, because it cultivates a healthy radiant state that builds over time and influences one's surroundings. I just had one of the best days I ever had. It is brutally cold outside, and nothing went well, but we got a lot done.
There is, I believe, also a deeper, pure inner bliss and radiant beauty that is more stable and goes beyond concepts of duality and non-duality. That stable bliss does not depend on anything outside or inside, it just is. It is unborn, non-arisen, uncreated, and unconditioned. As such, it is not subject to the four winds.
Form is Emptiness; and Emptiness is Form. The monist notion of duality and non-duality is another duality. That is what I am thinking right now. As always, my views could be mistaken, and are most certainly incomplete.
Gate Gate. Paragate. Parasamgate. Bodhi Svaha
"Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of men." -- Robert Hunter
.
Split wood and it is there.
Raise a stone and you will find it.
R: The joy and bliss of form absorption is healing and useful, it recharges the batteries.
S9: Do you see this absorption as a trance state? Or do you see absorption, per say, as always being a trance-like state. The reason I am asking is because IMO Enlightenment absorbs us completely, as well, leaving no crumbs. Don’t you think?
I definitely see meditation as extremely healthful and healing. For instance, I use watching breath (meditation) as a way to relax during a migraine headache, and this also relaxes the tension in my muscles that would normally accompany such a pain.
Mentally causing tension in our muscles because of pain, or fighting the pain, is almost reflexive, and certainly causes the pain to exacerbate. This starts a cycle of pain contributing to more tension, and tension contributing more pain, circular and building, so as to end up being a spiral of agony. Watch you breath cuts this circle.
I wonder if I couldn’t get you to explain to me, a little further about certain things, like the 5 veil/hindrances and 4 fold Metta-Bhavana? I obviously could Google these, but someone with personal experience in these areas, explaining, always seems (to me anyway) far more accessible.
I think that I would need to have been living off planet, for a long time, not to have run into people speaking of healing and helping that coming from either the white light or the yellow light. But (forgive me), I have always wondered just how much of this wasn’t merely suggestion.
Although, with all of the new findings on the placebo effect not being hocus-pocus, and having witnessed myself how well suggestion actually heals, you would think that I would smarten up, wouldn't you?
I should be more open minded in this area, and start using these tools. Because, it is almost like we have to give our body permission to heal its self, if that makes any sense at/all.
R: There is, I believe, also a deeper, pure inner bliss and radiant beauty that is more stable and goes beyond concepts of duality and non-duality. That stable bliss does not depend on anything outside or inside, it just is. It is unborn, non-arisen, uncreated, and unconditioned. As such, it is not subject to the four winds.
S9: Yes, indeed. I believe many of us on this forum have had glimpses of this ‘Isness’ or ‘Thusness,’ or “Suchness.” (Call it what you will.) The Presence “IS” our very own intimate ‘Essential Being.’
R: Form is Emptiness; and Emptiness is Form. The monist notion of duality and non-duality is another duality.
S: Both language and concept, are the children of the mind, and cannot escape dualism. When you live within mind, you live within comparisons. Empty is a comparison, and so is Monism. As a song lyric sings, "You can't have One without the other." ; ^ )
'Isness’ has absolutely nothing (whatsoever) to hold onto, or to own. "It is abiding in the non-abiding."
R: Quoted: "Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of men." -- Robert Hunter
S9: I always loved the symbol of the “Cornucopia.”
The basket being the symbol of ‘Pure Potential” (AKA ‘Isness.’), and what inevitably flows out in abundance, is finitude, or the dreaming mind.
R: Split wood and it is there.
Raise a stone and you will find it.
S9: Yes, indeed, omnipresence.
Sufi saying: “Everywhere I look, I see the face of God." (AKA “Isness.’)
Thank you, my friend. This was a delightful post. : ^ )
Respectfully,
S9
__________________
Piti / priti 喜 {}: Of the two, this arises first in meditation, and is fleeting. Translated as joy, zest, elation, rapture, delight. ecstasy. This is a cetasika or mental concomitant and is part of the fourth aggregate {khanda / skandha} which relates to conditioned volition or motivation.
Sukha 樂 : This arises after piti and is more stable. Translated as bliss, pleasure, happiness, contentment. This is vedana, and belongs to the second aggregate; of feelings or sensations. It is the opoposite of dukkha {pain, suffering, stress, dissatisfaction}.
My understanding is that there are different kinds of bliss. There is the bliss of kama {lust, sense pleasure} that arises from contact with objects of the sense doors. Then there is the meditative bliss that arises from observing or contemplating form without contact. Finally, there is said to be a non-arisen stable bliss that some see as an attribute of spiritual purification {vishuddha} and unbinding {nirvana}.
The last one is controversial. Some see it as an impediment, an outflow that leads one back to binding, and doctrinally tending toward the concept of a perpetual soul. Others see it as a fruit of cultivation of the mind; a purification of the second aggregate, achieved by perfection of the second framework of mindfulness.
Understanding the difference between piti / priti and sukha is something we can gradually glean from practice. Then, whether an inner stable inner bliss that radiates outward is an aspect of waking up, or another trap, is also something we have to resolve for ourselves. I think the best approach is non-attachment; both to views and bliss. There is no problem with tentative views -- they are necessary to function as a person; I suspect clinging to opinions is the problem.
I am not sure what is a trance. I use absorption as a translation of jhana or dhyana in a Buddhist sense. I see it as a level of concentration in which one tunes out sensory input. People get absorbed in a book, a TV show, a movie, and so on. There is the list of 5 factors I mentioned earlier. People might think Form Absorptions {Rupa Dhyana} these are sublime states only attainable by advanced adepts. I do not think so, they are what they are.
The 4-fold metta bhavana was almost the exclusive focus of my practice from about 2002 to 2007. I have also studied the concept of 5 hindrances or veils as extensively as possible. Metta Bhavana or empathy cultivation, as I see it, is a method of transforming our motivations and creating merit.
The five hindrances are mental obstructions that arise and block concentration.
BTW. my eyes are still getting acclimated to the layout. These are maybe intermediate to advanced topics? Maybe we could start separate threads in this meditation forum on each one?
Panca Nivarana: The Five Hindrances, the pali concept. The same concept in Tiantai Buddhism is 五蓋 {wugai / gogai}: The Five Obstructions or Veils
I did a playful take on these recently:
The Five Hindrances / Veils Animated
Metta / Maitri-karuna Bhavana 慈悲修行 {cibei xiuxing / jihi shugyo}. These are also called the Four Immeasurable States or Intangibles 四無量心 {si wuliang xin /shi muryo shin} and the Brahma Vihara -- the abodes of Brahma. The other two are shared joy; mudita 喜心 {xixing / kishin} and equanimity; upekka / upeksha 捨心 {shexin / shashin}.
Thank you for the intellectual stimulation. I have been looking for a place to collegially discuss Dharma with truth seekers.
I don't find it difficult to believe in so-called miracles. I'm not particularly impressed by them. I have come to understand they are simply cause and effect, like everything else. There are many tricks we can play with our minds, but just because they are tricks doesn't mean they don't work.
~ AD
I think the problem with using tricks of the mind as tools for healing, is that first you have to believe in the tricks, don't we?
That is if they are tricks…kind of like what we (so called, more sophisticated types) believe about how a witch doctor pulls it off his magic.
But, I have also had it explain to me by others, that we have more than one body, superimposed, one of these being electric, for instance. The Chinese seem to use this particular paradigm, when they speak about chi, and heal people with acupuncture.
I have gone in for acupuncture, with a migraine that would kill, and after those tiny little needles were inserted and twisting only slightly, gone home with absolutely no pain, this lasting for a month, for me anyway.
There is so much we don’t understand.
I guess what I am saying here is, that we may be living on multiple levels (multiple worlds or dream scapes) of which we have lost track and/or perhaps never been acquainted with to begin with, and that perhaps this yellow light, and this white light, is a part of a level with its own laws, and operates consistently, just as legitimately as our physical laws do.
But, hell, I am only trying to be open to this whole new way of thinking, and not yet facile in their uses.
(I have personally seen auras, though. I have also personally witnessed the electricity that moves within our body, and beyond it at times, on more than one occasion. I do not work at these, however, or in these areas of medicine, or study on them…yet.)
I do heartily agree with you, that the body can disrupt its own healing, simply through attitude. Hormones, those tiny little giants, are released with our every thought. We are only beginning to understand how very powerful, and multi-tasked these guys are.
I always enjoy your input, as it is both accurate and stimulating. So thanks, and please keep it coming.
Respectfully yours,
S9
Knowing does not require intention. When the insight arises into the unbenefical nature of alcohol use, that insight is direct, it is awakening.
The Eightfold Path is the same. Right intention may set the mind into what is called right concentration but when direct insight occurs (vipassana), no intention is required to see clearly the true nature of things.
How can seeing the true nature of things require intention? The true nature of things is just as it is.
Intention may set a mirror in a certain direction but intention is not required for the mirror to reflect the reality facing it.
Was there the intention to see the bright yellow aura or is things having bright yellow auras merely their true nature?
S9: Quite true, knowing does not require intention, in the ultimate sense.
But, very often we have to start from where we are in any particular moment. So, we may not always know where we want to go, or how we are going to get there, but we can often intend to leave where we presently are. Our present insight being, "This stinks."
So it is with alcohol. Alcohol will not be given up simply by wishing it to be so, alone. Especially if, there is some addiction involved.
Ask the many 'drinker in excess,' who end up back with alcohol simply because they didn’t replace alcohol with something better, something that gave them even more happiness, or fulfillment without the payback.
You don’t really believe that so many persons continue to drink, just because they have no insight into its destructiveness, do you?
Peace,
S9
As someone who spent almost two years (19-21) on benders every weekend I don't think my past behaviour would prevent me from telling someone how upsetting it is that they are constantly drunk. If anything, I think it would help in telling them how it is affecting others because I'd been there and seen how I had hurt my loved ones.
I think you have an advantage because your past behaviour (whatever that may be) gives you an insight that someone who's never been there will never have.
Apologies for sounding presumptious or lecturing. I just think you're not giving yourself enough credit to do it.
Respectfully,
Raven
Edited to add:
I just re-read this and realise it sounds quite naive against what some of you have discussed. I want to emphasise that I am not trying to make out that I went through something you all don't understand. I almost deleted this but I left it because I really DO want Lyssa to see it and (hopefully) understand that I was answering from a point of empathy and compassion, not snobbery. And once again I truly apologise if I did not convey this correctly
I agree. Sometimes our weakest moments in life, can be our greatest lessons, and can give us the compassion we need, and experience required, in order to help others in some specific way. (Mercy comes from many directions.)
In a way, I almost feel that our own weaknesses may be a calling, if you will, not that much different than what a priest may feel. (A heart felt insight.)
None of us can do everything, but all of us can do something…to aid miserable mankind.
Warm Regards,
S9
Reminds me of this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HhcYEuFXXQ
(Anna Nalik - 'Catalyst')
''So you're taking these pills
For to fill up your soul
And you're drinking them down with cheap alcohol''
Alcohol makes some mellow, and others violent, and I guess we all know ourselves well enough to know what alcohol does to us and how much it takes to have an effect.
Anyone depressed should avoid alcohol completely, and certainly not be drinking when on antibiotics and 'drinking them down with cheap alcohol'!
Aside from my vows, I never did bother much with alcohol as it seems to have very little effect on me, aside from the hangover. One anaesthetist told me I am a rare case as he administered enough anaesthetic to knock out a horse. Come to think of it, maybe I should try ketamine ! LOL
The problem (in a western, alcohol-orientated society) with giving up completely is that you risk becoming a) an awkward guest, and b) completely consumed with how virtuous you are for not drinking. 'Hi, what do you do then?', 'I'm a tee-totaller, and considerably more holy than thou...'. It becomes just another ego trip, albeit a subtle one, and a physically healthy one!
If you do choose not to drink, that is great, but I would suggest that this should be a natural evolution, not something you arbitarily impose on yourself because you think that's what the 5th precept means.
I write this from the perspective of someone with several alcoholics in my immediate family, so I'm hardly the demon drink's biggest fan, and I don't take this lightly.
As a practical tip to other westerners who struggle with this, a 2-drink ceiling helps you get through most low-key social events without raised eyebrows or social pressure, and without unduly intefering with the next morning's meditation.
EDIT: my final point; some people expressed surprise that any Buddhist's would drink at all... Surely Buddhism accepts practitioners who are not yet 'perfect' in their deeds???? Or do we need to have completely dispensed with all craving and attachments before starting out?
Palzang
All the lay vows I have seen prohibit intoxicants, not just intoxication. I would be interested to see a version which permits intoxicants. Do you have a source for that?
Pratimoksha, Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows I have taken all prohibit intoxicants. The exception you mention is during tantric practice.
I think you are making a good point.
We don’t just need chemicals in order to get intoxicated. Metaphorically speaking, a huge ego can be very intoxicating.
“Look at me, how very great I am, and so pure,” is a real head-trip, and probably just as addicting as any drug we can think of. Probably even more dangers than a glass of wine, because it gets a pass without close scrutiny to its problematic effects.
We prance, and display our goodness. Can you spell narcissism? ; ^ )
Keeping a close eye on our selves, and our subtle motivations, is probably the best remedy for overdoing anything.
Respectfully,
S9
The point isn't how "bad" alcohol is. The point is, why are we drawn to it in the first place? The only reason to drink alcohol is to alter our mind. It can be as innocent as simply trying to relax in an uncomfortable social setting, or to help loosen up our inhibitions. In all cases, we drink to change the moment from what it is, into something different. We are, in some way, unsatisfied with the way we are, so we attempt to alter ourselves. Where we fail is not in the effects of taking alcohol (although depressants do run contrary to the point of Buddhism, which is to awaken), it is in missing the opportunity to awaken right here and now, accepting the present moment as it is, without judgment or reserve.
We don't need alcohol. Instead of relying on an external substance as a crutch, we can learn to expand our consciousness and improve ourselves. Alcohol takes us farther from this goal, rather than closer, providing, at best, a temporary "quick fix." In the end, nothing is gained.
~ AD
I realise I'm sounding pro-alcohol here; in 'real life' I'm actually quite anti-booze, but I am also aware that we are risking falling into the traps mentioned above when we get hung up on it one way or the other.
I, like your self, don’t drink at all, EVER.
My reasons are not moral reasons, however. Nor do I following rules, unthinkingly, because they were written down somewhere without any thought of flexibility towards circumstance.
It is in overdoing anything that it becomes a problem. (It becomes a distraction.) I would include under this umbrella, the over doing of the moral rules, too. (If everythings all black and white, it becomes an impossibility, which also distracts our minds, greatly.)
This would include being attached to the 'LETTER of the LAW' to a large extent, (a perfectionism that causes suffering), either in your own life, and/or even goes on to push your own ideas down the throats of our brothers and sisters, (causing the suffering that comes out of arguing, and harsh judgments).
I believe the Buddha wanted us to let a little bit of this everyday foolishness go, and use this same attention and energy to seek Liberation.
Attachment to the concept of no drinking, at/all is very often just riddled with negative emotions. I see this as a much bigger problem than a small glass of wine occasionally.
Because:
One guy drinks a glass of wine and just lets it go, forgets about it in minutes. But, a person all tangled up in his rules has his work ahead of him.
Warm Regards,
S9
Almost everything we do is seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, even drinking water comes under that definition.
I have a good friend who has always been highly wired. When it is time to go to bed, he can’t just seem to quiet down easily. I told him to try drinking a small glass of wine at bedtime, and it has worked like a charm.
There is actually very little that we do, because this is the way that the mind works, that isn’t some kind of attachment. Even our Spiritual path can so easily pick up this attachment, that we need to be ever vigilant. (AKA Spiritual Materialism.)
AD: The point isn't how "bad" alcohol is. The point is, why are we drawn to it in the first place?
S9: Yes indeed, my friend, but isn’t that the case with most everything we do? Isn’t Liberation more to do with stepping aside of this “river of happenings,” and simply not owning them?
AD: The only reason to drink alcohol is to alter our mind.
S9: Absolutely everything alters the mind. How you breathe, if too shallow alters your mind. Altering mind isn’t the problem, after all, isn’t that why we meditate? I think that it is outcomes, where we must keep our attention, don’t you?
AD: We drink to change the moment from what it is, into something different.
S9: Every day we do this; cause a moment to change in some way. We might do this simply by crossing the street. That is the way finitude works, it is constantly becoming the next moment through change. I believe we must look a little deeper to discover where the real problem in this lies.
Now, I will give you that drinking isn’t a direct path to Liberation. But stopping drinking isn’t either, or AA would be full of Buddhists. ; ^ )
Warm regards,
S9
Sorry to disagree with you again today but I just wanted to point out that the 'addictive personality' idea you're describing here is a myth and is no longer accepted by the medical community at large. Whoa! Hold on there, A.D. There are people, many people, who have the occasional glass of wine simply because they like the flavour of it and leave it at that. It is no different from drinking a glass of juice for its flavour or a glass of cold water for its refreshing qualities. The above paragraph that I quoted seems to me to illustrate more of a problem with alcohol for you than it is for those who drink moderately or on occasion.
Holy cow, A.D! Do you really think in such black or white, absolutist terms? Or are you just trying to play Devil's Advocate? Because surely you realize that there are people in this world who can wholesomely enjoy 3 or 4 glasses of wine a year for no other reason than simple enjoyment. Three years ago I had a glass of red wine with dinner at my nephew's wedding in August, another glass of red wine during Christmas dinner with my family (some of whom abstain as a result of alcoholism), and another glass of red wine the following summer while in Montreal enjoying a cheese plate at a restaurant with friends. I can assure you that I wasn't trying to 'alter my mind', or 'relax in an uncomfortable social setting'. I didn't have a glass of wine 'to help loosen up [my] inhibitions', or 'to change the moment from what it [was], into something different'. I wasn't attempting to 'alter [myself]' in any way because I was 'unsatisfied with the way really [am] nor did I drink those glasses of wine in any other unskillful way. There are some foods that I enjoy having a glass of wine with in the same way I prefer to drink Coca Cola or black tea with Indian food and Oolong tea with Chinese food. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, for heaven's sake.
Precisely. Very well put, imho, Subjectivity.
Note, I never said they are "bad." I make no judgment on the "virtue" of abstinence, or "sin" of indulgence. I am not implying we should all be perfect monks and nuns and never sip wine, eat chocolate, or watch TV. The fact is, however, those are all methods we use for distracting the senses. A perfected mind has no use for such distractions. Do you think Ghandi wasted time on such trivialities? How about Mother Theresa? The Dailai Lama? Buddha, himself? They all had much better things to do. Our addiction to sensual gratification, no matter how trivial, is not helping us.
I'm nowhere near the model of perfection I am discussing, especially at this time in my life. There was a time, however, not long ago, when I was pretty close. I have to tell you, I was never happier. Craving--no matter how tiny and harmless the craving--is still suffering. When every moment is completely fulfilled, and you want for nothing; that is ultimate happiness.
Isn't that the point of all this, anyway?
Please understand, I am not saying we should deny our senses. That would be something completely different. In fact, it is really quite the opposite. The world is a cascade of sensual experiences, every moment we breathe. The point is to embrace what is right there before us, rather than run to something "better."
If you have heard Thich Nhat Hahn speak of his experience of eating, you will understand where I am coming from. When Thay eats, say, a carrot, he eats it with his whole being. He doesn't eat just a carrot, he also eats the rain and soil the carrot grew from, the hands of the gardener who tended it, the wood of the bowl it was carried in, and shoes of the one who carried it. All his senses participate in eating, from the rich orange color, the earthy smell, the texture of the skin, the sound of the crunch, to the flavor of the meat. There is no thought of how he might enjoy something else more. How could anything be better than eating a carrot? If you eat with your whole being, it is impossible.
When we are constantly mindful of our choices, there is never any desire to consume something that does not enrich us. While this may sound foreign to us, it is actually the most natural way to live. All the "extra" stuff we are constantly surrounded by are the aberrations. We've just forgotten how to be "normal."
~ AD
That's OK! LOL
I can only speak from my own experience, some of which was working briefly in psychiatric wards and outpatients, and from knowing far too many people suffering chronic depression. I tend to think that depression can lead to addictions as the person seeks a way through it. I also see quite a few who move from one addiction to another - and some who end up 'addicted' to one religion or another.
I don't take much notice of the medical community's latest theories. Look waht happens with wine - couple of glasses of red wine is good for you, then any equivalent amount of alcohol from any drink, now even the smallest amount is harmful, tommorrow who knows. A lot of what we are told is simply the view based on the latest research.
I also see here in the UK a medical profession with a huge addiction and suicide problem, so I think I'd rather trust what I see for myself.
Q: “Dying of thirst beside the river.”
In other words, when we try to find ALL of our gratifications in a single source, this will naturally lead to an overdoing of this one ingredient in our lives.
We all need to be gratified in some way in order to enjoy our life. It is actually natural to have joy in order to avoid despondency.
Very often, this one source of enjoyment begins to lose its initial appeal, as the body habituates itself to this one joy. We might then need another drink to get the original high, or two pieces of pizza to give us that same slam of stimulation. I believe that this is because the body instinctively moves us about, for health reasons, both mentally and physically, using the carrot of pleasure to do this. (And, of course it opposite, pain, to cause avoidance.) Without these two stimuli we would not survive as a species.
So, it is “getting stuck” in one source of pleasure that leads to overdoing that one source.
Often times, people get stuck because they are what I refer to as people who have trouble with self-starting. In other words, these people are waiting for something to come from the outside (of themselves) in order to move them along.
Buddhism is a wonderful tool for teaching us to take the reigns in our own lives. Buddhism is a tool for getting unstuck.
Buddhism says don’t wait around for a “savior” in the form of alcohol, or pizza, or even new friends to tell you what to do next. This makes you a victim of circumstance.
Be your own savior, and start right now in this very moment.
You can stop this running after disappointment, simply by seeing more clearly. Clear sight is a natural cure.
Warm regards,
S9
I still struggle with alcohol. When I DO drink, I feel so ashamed and hopeless afterward.
It's like a war going on inside my head. On the one side, is a committee cheering me on to get shit-faced. On the other side, a committee encouraging me to not take that first drink, and seek better ways of finding peace from my pain and suffering.
I have plenty of justifications at the ready. But I will address those in other threads, because I believe they deserve a place of their own.
Ruby Faye
First post here and I'm not a Buddhist, though I'm interested in what you guys have to say.
But as a recovered alcoholic, I've enjoyed reading your posts, particularly AD who has given me some great insights into the nature of my 'disease'; I've got to stop eating all those chocolates, smoking, caffeine and probably lots of other stuff now haven't I?
I'm also not anti-alcohol, I leave that business to the temperance organisations, and when I'm hosting guests I still tend to try and force alcohol on them - more than what they want usually - because I find it difficult to believe that most 'normal' people don't want to over-indulge. :rolleyes:
However, being a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, its suggested that we meditate as part of the programme we work; so to learn how to meditate I enrolled in a Buddhist meditation class, titled The Meaning of Life, which has fuelled my interest in what seems on the face of it, a very modern religion.
Anyway, its good to be here, I do regular breathing meditation, and I just wanted to 'connect' with the forum I guess.
Thanks.
I wouldn’t call what I said about alcohol a justification.
(But maybe I am justifying, my justification..."Oh no!" ; ^ )
I believe that my point is more that, if you are having big trouble with alcohol, “Don’t kill the messenger.”
In a way, alcohol has come to “Wake” you up (a messenger) to the fact that something isn’t right in Eden, just like Adam and Eve should get away with blaming the snake that gave them the apple.
Like you have alluded to, a lack of honesty is actually our worst enemy. This lack of honesty, or our inability to face honest facts, straight on, more frequently appears in how we deal with ourselves, than it ever does in how we deal with others. Perhaps that is why, metaphorically, the Devil is known as the ‘Father of Lies.’
If there is one person here on this forum that doesn’t have any shortcomings, or two, than he is probably truly a very good liar, as well. ; ^ )
If I were you, I would take a piece of paper and write down what your head is telling you, about good reasons to drink, and why you are absolutely worthless for drinking. In this way, you create some distance between these thoughts, and yourself.
(Later you won’t need a paper/pencil to do this same thing, as you will have formed a good habit of distancing yourself from thoughts.)
The ability to step back and investigate these thoughts, objectively, will serve you as a very good tool for both strengthening and clarity. This positive habit will serve you all the way from here, exactly where you are standing right now, all the way to your very last moment b/4 Liberation. This companion will serve you well.
You see, I am guessing that, right now you are too closely identifying with these thoughts, as in, “My thoughts,” or even worse, “These thoughts are 'me'.”
This is simply not true.
These thoughts are actually more like flies buzzing around your head, and you can easily pick up a rolled newspaper, and swat them away. (Figuratively speaking.)
Seeing this small thing, dis-identifying with thoughts, has massive connotations for your life, and is quite liberating. You will be able to use your newfound 'peace' as a kind of fuel to carry you even further. : ^ )
Many forms of both 'meditation' and 'mindfullness' are simply further extentions on this small exercise, but on a far more subtle level, IMO.
Warm Regards,
S9
Welcome to our gentle little sandbox.
T: I've got to stop eating all those chocolates, smoking, caffeine, and probably lots of other stuff now haven't I?
S9: A lot of our problems in life are tied together with invisible strings into mysterious little bundles of pain. So that, when you clear up one small thing, very often a dozen others bothersome traits will bite the dust at the very same time. Otherwise, it would be a forever job, at least in my life. ; ^ )
Another factor is, when you add good things to your life, like meditation, the stuff that hasn’t been working up until now, often just loses its luster and appeal. So you don’t really have to give them up, at/all. You just don't want them anymore.
Buddhism is an all-purpose tool, much like a Swiss Army knife. It can serve as a philosophy, a psychology, a metaphysic, a religion, and just good common sense, so take your pick as to what serves you best, right now. You may in time find out that Buddhism serves you in multiple ways, beyond what you can imagine possible, but all useful and enriching in their own ways.
If you have trouble sitting at first, try doing it in very short and enjoyable intervals.
In time you will see that you can multi-task meditate, too, in many, many ways. Some people enjoy walking while meditating, etc.
Like I say, there are quite a few different ways to meditate. One size need not fit all.
I meditate while doing my chores here on the farm, and find the more tedious chores become more enjoyable in this way.
I also meditate when I do my workouts in the gym every other day, and find that I have had fewer injuries because of this added attention to detail.
Meditation can become your “best friend” given time.
"It's the gift that keeps on giving."
I even meditate while i'm standing in line at the grocery store. Done correctly, meditation can become a way of life.
When I first started meditation on my breath, I had a lot of trouble remembering to do it.
“Darn/darn/darn!"
My monkey mind would just dance off, who knew where, for a long periods of time, unnoticed. I even went so far as to put an elastic band on my wrist, a bright red one, so that I would notice it and be called back in that way. But, fear not my new friend, it gets easier with time.
Incidentally, I am a recovering intellectual. ; ^ ) Yes, really!
Warm Regards,
S9
I think you'll find the basic tenets of AA have a lot in common with Buddhism. For one thing, they both emphasize the need to take responsibility for your own life and to learn how to create the causes for being happy. And it doesn't really matter what label you put on it anyway. What matters is developing the ability to make the right decisions that will result in happiness and peace of mind. Also remember that we are all addicted to samsara, i.e. our attachments.
Palzang
If you already are a drinker and begin to meditate (many) people often find that they cannot quit cold turkey. The alcohol will affect you of course as always but you may still meditate.
Its the same as if you have insomnia. Does lack of sleep improve meditation? No. Can you meditate if you have insomnia? Yes.
Hi Palzang, I do see the similarities between the 12 Step Programme of AA and Buddhism, but I didn't want to mention that for fear of you guys thinking I was a 'nutter'.
I think its the similarities that attracts me to Buddhism; I already aspire to live along the lines of a philosophical/spiritual programme and I know it works, but being a naturally greedy git, I want MORE.
The 4 Noble truths are similar to Step 1 and 2 which requires some humility, the 8 fold path (I think its 8; right thinking, etc) are like Step 3 and the general AA way of avoiding wrong thinking and wrong actions (because, for us, stinking thinking leads to stinking drinking
Oh, and Step 11 contains meditation; something that I have done regularly with varying success, for about six months now, but I know I've just got to do it; and I do; twice a day for about 20 to 30 minutes each time.
I read recently the writings of the Roman philosopher Seneca, and he said 'being spiritual is mostly about being good', and I try to make that my philosophy these days. I've been such a bad person, and I have, that I feel I have this overwhelming need to create some good karma, as you guys may say.
Anyway, I plan to visit our local Buddhist centre next month (I've got a lot on this month) and start doing some proper structured investigation into Buddhism. At present I've done a short Buddhist meditation course called the Meaning of Life, and 'Dave the Buddhist' had some extremely interesting things to say which struck a lot of chords with me. I've done a fair amount of reading and listening to MP3 downloads of Monks giving talks on various subjects; it still surprises me how applicable Buddhism is to life in the 21st Century. And of course I'm here!
And apologies for hijacking this post which was (I think) about meditation and alcohol, which for me isn't a problem because I'm tee-total. :hrm:
I, for one, feel that you have added a lot of good ideas to this conversation. Personal experience shared, is always a learning opportunity. : ^ )
Sometimes the most interesting things happen, when we stray a wee bit from an original question. It adds a little spice. Being too strict about sticking to any one topic can be a little stiff (unnatural), uncomfortable, and uninteresting too. IMPO
So when someone says, “Wow, that make me think of…the time, or the quote, then “Thank Goodness” for a little life being injected into the conversation. So thanks, for adding your 2 cents and...please, don’t jam up, worrying about how we might judge you.
Buddhism throughout history has had a (life saving) capacity to make itself relevant. In ancient times, when it was introduced into new countries, or to new peoples, it adjusted to what could be understood and implemented without loosing any of its own intrinsic high qualities of wisdom. So now in these days, it has used vehicles such as psychology, and medicine, (to name a few) in order to become useful to a people, and understandable on their terms.
Of course there are those among us who fear that this may be a ‘watering down’ of Buddhism, (A commercialization of her tenants).
But, I say to that, “Fear not,” Buddhism has proven its resourcefulness, and its capacity to remain standing for centuries. (starting in 500 BCE) Most of these new variations are simply entry-level introductions to a system that travels vastly more deeply given time. And people need this time. We cannot all just jump into the deep end of the pool without first learning to swim, now, can we?
I think Tosh, that you will find that Buddhism isn’t a short-lived pleasure, dying out like so many other pursuits, and leaving you nursing your own disappointment. It doesn't pieta out, because it lacks the fuel to continue. But, rather, Buddism is a "way of life" that grows as you grow, ever new, and exciting.
What we are looking for here is, Satisfaction, (total satisfaction, for once) that comes and stays.
The great thing is, that we don't have to hold our breath, waiting for the one big prize given only when we reach our final goal. Buddhism passes out little gifts of well being, and relief from suffering, all along the way. It is a little like those people who stand on the side lines, passing food and drink to the marathon runners.
Happy journey, : ^ )
S9
It's good to be here.
Well, next year, when you are totally Realized, don't forget your friends who are still putzing along.
; ^ )
S9