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I don't know, I do occasional weed and alcohol, more so of the latter, but still both fairly irregularly, but that's not the point. Weed makes me more mindful of the little things, as it makes the emotional reaction to EVERYTHINg 5x more powerful, and it wouldn't be bad for meditation though I often can't remember the things I think about. What it does is it allows us to see microsystems we don't normally see and ascribe as mundane, but nothing is mundane under THC.
Alcohol is a different beast, and I wouldn't recommend it for meditation, but it allows me to see MACROsystems. It dumbs your brain so you aren't THINKING as much, but this allows you to obtain "clarity" as you aren't caught up in as much metacognition. I can more objectively see things I otherwise couldn't, and my emotions are now under my control, they normally aren't due to random unconscious influences, maybe I need to meditate to get rid of those...
And slightly unrelated:
Lol and there's this story of a guy who tripped on DMT, and he says he met these beings that told him "not to give into amazement" and pay attention so that he could replicate what they were doing, and they were singing beautiful things into creation. The reason I'm including this story is that many other people under the influence of DMT have similar stories, the guy asked the Tibetans, and they said it was the "lesser lights of the bardo", it was the furthest he could go and still return.
But do you really need the weed to be more mindful?
Can you practice to reach this mindfulness without intoxicants?
If you can wouldn't that be more ideal?
I expect to be Enlightened by about this time next year. :rolleyes:
Why so long? C'mon, apply yourself harder!
Well, my teacher is a big fan of 12 step programs. As she says, we're all addicted to samsara, i.e. desire, so what works for alcohol or drugs can also work for desire in general. She also says that we have to clean up our own lives before we can hope to gain much from Buddhist practice, and 12 step programs are a good way to do this. I think they're very compatible.
Many, many, many Buddhists drink alcohol (in moderation, of course). Strict adherence to the 5th precept is more common in the monastic lifestyle.
Sounds like you are referring to the Five Precepts Vow, which lay people can also take. Strict adherence to the Five Precepts is prescribed for anyone who takes that Vow, whether they are lay or monastics.
The Tibetan Buddhist teaching on vows is this: you earn more merit by following the precepts if you have vowed to do so, than you would if you followed them without having taken a vow. But if you break the vow, you earn more negative karma than if you had not taken the vow to begin with.
Thank you S9, that was interesting. I'm a bit OCD-ish; I didn't realise that till I gave up drinking; so I expect to be Enlightened by about this time next year. :rolleyes:
It's good to be here.
Just a word of warning, When one identifies with the ego/the mind, one is seeking salvation in external things. The mind relies on time and goals to exist, putting "you" who has identified w/ the ego as nothing but a seed, awaiting fullfillment. In other words, don't seek to extinguish desires, as that in and of itself becomes a desire.
Instead just be aware, come into the timeless "now" and don't follow the ego/mind which is dependent on time.
Just a word of warning, When one identifies with the ego/the mind, one is seeking salvation in external things. The mind relies on time and goals to exist, putting "you" who has identified w/ the ego as nothing but a seed, awaiting fullfillment. In other words, don't seek to extinguish desires, as that in and of itself becomes a desire.
Instead just be aware, come into the timeless "now" and don't follow the ego/mind which is dependent on time.
Thanks, but careful, I'm almost a total n00b to Buddhism and the little knowledge I have is purely of an intellectual nature. I sort of understand what you're saying, but that's because I've read some of Eckhart Tolle (please don't groan).
So I sort of understand the concept your speaking of, but applying it correctly is a different kettle of fish for me. I have an understanding of the ego, and also understand that its not 'me', but not identifying with the ego on any level other than actively trying not to identify with my ego isn't that easy.
Eckhart Tolle is pretty good, although he gets a little off from the truth, and how I see it personally, sometimes. I think he makes everything far too grand, and also a bit too historical. This path is far more intimate than that, IMPO.
But, he doesn’t sell all of those books by being completely out to lunch, either.
Just enjoy him, but take him with a grain of salt, until you yourself either witness what he is saying to be true, or go beyond that. Sometimes, he says some pretty good stuff.
While you are studying and being receptive to these new ideas, truth is seeping into you on multiple levels quite unnoticed. You have already made some changes in your life that you won’t even notice for a couple of years, only on looking back.
Then:
You might think, “Wow, when did I stop doing that?”
Or:
“If this had happened to me 10 years ago, I would have been devastated,” and smile to yourself, (during a crisis).
Been there/done that.
Believe it or not, your ego has already started to melt…just questioning ego at/all is the beginning. These questions have a life of their own. You only think that you are doing them/questioning. In truth, they are doing you.
No right, and no wrong…just every day better and better.
So enjoy our breathing meditation, don’t be in a big old hurry. This is a love affair. Relax into it.
Well, my teacher is a big fan of 12 step programs. As she says, we're all addicted to samsara, i.e. desire, so what works for alcohol or drugs can also work for desire in general. She also says that we have to clean up our own lives before we can hope to gain much from Buddhist practice, and 12 step programs are a good way to do this. I think they're very compatible.
Palzang
I'm obviously a fan of the spiritual 12 Step program of AA, its a bit like Buddhism where you can 'test' it to see if it works; though you have got to put the effort in; like Buddhism I guess.
And for me, the program has been both life saving and life changing and its opened my eyes to another possible dimension of living; hence why I'm here.
Thanks, S9, that was a good post for me to read; many of your points I sort of knew, but wouldn't have been able to articulate them in the simple way you've done.
I won't be in a big hurry and I'll enjoy the journey; promise!
I'm obviously a fan of the spiritual 12 Step program of AA, its a bit like Buddhism where you can 'test' it to see if it works; though you have got to put the effort in; like Buddhism I guess.
And for me, the program has been both live saving and live changing and its opened my eyes to another possible dimension of living; hence why I'm here.
Hi Palzang, I do see the similarities between the 12 Step Programme of AA and Buddhism, but I didn't want to mention that for fear of you guys thinking I was a 'nutter'.
Hmmmmm. On the face of it, The Programme of AA may seem to have Christian overtones, but its not compulsory. I've a friend who is Indian, he could be a Hindu (but I don't know because we haven't discussed it), and he's a real 'Big Book Thumper' (the AA equivalent of a Bible Basher), so it doesn't put him off and he celebrated his 13th year of sobriety yesterday. AA has no issue with religion and although you will hear the word god, that could be a Hindu, Christian, Pagan, or your own concept of 'god'.
Now AA does say its best if you can believe that there's a power greater than yourself, and where 'god' is mentioned, you just think of your own particular higher power. I've heard of people using dead relatives, and even an angel in one case!
For the atheists and agnostics, they often use the acronym G.O.D for Group of Drunks, which is essentially an AA Meeting Group. So for an atheist, Step 3 which is to turn your will and your life over to a power greater than yourself; what they would do is to imagine and do what the AA Group would want them to do. And the AA Group would want their members to stay sober, treat their family with respect, and go to work; be a normal, decent human being. Where some psychologists may suggest that the drunk gets in touch with their 'inner child', AA would suggest that their 'inner child' gets a job. I promise you its not all about 'god'.
I guess Buddhists could use one of the Buddhas or Karma; anything they consider to be a power greater than themselves; or just use G.O.D (Group of Drunks). Its a humility thing.
Okay, some - few and far between here in the UK - AA Meetings can be 'god orientated'; I tend to avoid those and people who 'like God' tend to go to those. At the two AA meetings I do service at, God, (or god) rarely get a mention, and personally I suspect that 12 Step Buddhism would be just reinventing the wheel, or maybe make a member feel different in some way.
Remember, drunks are drunks and we'll make all sorts of excuses to justify our drinking. People forced into AA by family will often say, "I tried AA and it didn't work", but that generally means the 'member' went to a couple of meetings, didn't do anything (its a programme of action), and then went back to what he/she really wanted to do; drink. "I can't do the 'god thing'" could be another excuse; not valid in my view since the majority of people I know in AA are agnostic or atheist.
AA is a spiritual programme, NOT a religion. It would be very bad form for any member to speak about a specific god at a meeting. However I may buy the book, just out of interest though.
Where some psychologists may suggest that the drunk gets in touch with their 'inner child', AA would suggest that their 'inner child' gets a job.
Lol!! That's a good one!
I heard an AA story once about a guy who was complaining to his sponsor about his life and how terrible everything was. His sponsor told him to get a job and the other guy said, "But I feel so lousy all the time." The sponsor replied, "Then get a lousy job."
I was able to reduce my drinking on my own. I think I used the higher power thing but I used my own mental clarity as a higher power. The clarity that came to me, well, in a moment of clarity as they say. One problem with such moments is they are impermanent and then it seems a good idea to have a drink. But I just had confidence to trust that such moments of clarity would return if I opened to my experience. My teacher said that I should just not be divided. In other words it was ok to drink but then I had to open to that experience and have confidence in my indestructible heart rather than on the mental voices which are either saying alchol would meet my needs or else telling me I am a dirt bag for having a drink. The problem is that you are bound to have slips and if you have to much attachment to an image of yourself then you can get discouraged. Instead I had confidence in my clarity (and openness and sensitivity) to see that I could relate to the mandala of the world in a way that would make me more happy than binging/addiction.
I still drink occasionally but I actually enjoy it more because its less a compulsion than a skillfully used activity.
I think that we are all self-medicating out here. Perhaps all that we really need to do its to pick our medication wisely.
(For instance, I use breath as my drug of choice. If I feel nervous or a little out of sorts, breath is always right there for me, "picks me right up, and puts me back on the road.")
I believe that our first premise, “that I am not happy, and not satisfied right now,” is correct. And even the feeling that something has to change is right on target. So what we need to look really closely at is…what I am doing to rectify my situation? Is what I am presently doing, WORKING? This is what you have very wisely called, Clarity.
One of the things we notice right away is that “Monkey Mind” is not reliable. It is all over the map, and back again, saying “drink/don’t drink/drink.” So we can just tune him out as a lost cause.
We immediately notice however that there is someone (is it intellect?) far wiser than the whims of thought (Mr. Monkey Mind) standing by, watching all of the time, non-stop, and perfectly willing to lend a hand. Some people have called this our ‘Higher Self.” (I think science would call it the reflective mind.) Mystics might call this ‘the Witness.” But, whatever it is, by tuning into that part of our selves, life begins to go a bit smoother, or to improve.
We, of course, as Buddhists realize that this is only the beginning of a new grand journey that travels far deeper given time. But, it IS (nevertheless) a good beginning.
Comments
Alcohol is a different beast, and I wouldn't recommend it for meditation, but it allows me to see MACROsystems. It dumbs your brain so you aren't THINKING as much, but this allows you to obtain "clarity" as you aren't caught up in as much metacognition. I can more objectively see things I otherwise couldn't, and my emotions are now under my control, they normally aren't due to random unconscious influences, maybe I need to meditate to get rid of those...
And slightly unrelated:
Lol and there's this story of a guy who tripped on DMT, and he says he met these beings that told him "not to give into amazement" and pay attention so that he could replicate what they were doing, and they were singing beautiful things into creation. The reason I'm including this story is that many other people under the influence of DMT have similar stories, the guy asked the Tibetans, and they said it was the "lesser lights of the bardo", it was the furthest he could go and still return.
But do you really need the weed to be more mindful?
Can you practice to reach this mindfulness without intoxicants?
If you can wouldn't that be more ideal?
Why so long? C'mon, apply yourself harder!
Well, my teacher is a big fan of 12 step programs. As she says, we're all addicted to samsara, i.e. desire, so what works for alcohol or drugs can also work for desire in general. She also says that we have to clean up our own lives before we can hope to gain much from Buddhist practice, and 12 step programs are a good way to do this. I think they're very compatible.
Palzang
Sounds like you are referring to the Five Precepts Vow, which lay people can also take. Strict adherence to the Five Precepts is prescribed for anyone who takes that Vow, whether they are lay or monastics.
The Tibetan Buddhist teaching on vows is this: you earn more merit by following the precepts if you have vowed to do so, than you would if you followed them without having taken a vow. But if you break the vow, you earn more negative karma than if you had not taken the vow to begin with.
Instead just be aware, come into the timeless "now" and don't follow the ego/mind which is dependent on time.
Thanks, but careful, I'm almost a total n00b to Buddhism and the little knowledge I have is purely of an intellectual nature. I sort of understand what you're saying, but that's because I've read some of Eckhart Tolle (please don't groan).
So I sort of understand the concept your speaking of, but applying it correctly is a different kettle of fish for me. I have an understanding of the ego, and also understand that its not 'me', but not identifying with the ego on any level other than actively trying not to identify with my ego isn't that easy.
I'm still grappling with breathing meditation!:o
Eckhart Tolle is pretty good, although he gets a little off from the truth, and how I see it personally, sometimes. I think he makes everything far too grand, and also a bit too historical. This path is far more intimate than that, IMPO.
But, he doesn’t sell all of those books by being completely out to lunch, either.
Just enjoy him, but take him with a grain of salt, until you yourself either witness what he is saying to be true, or go beyond that. Sometimes, he says some pretty good stuff.
While you are studying and being receptive to these new ideas, truth is seeping into you on multiple levels quite unnoticed. You have already made some changes in your life that you won’t even notice for a couple of years, only on looking back.
Then:
You might think, “Wow, when did I stop doing that?”
Or:
“If this had happened to me 10 years ago, I would have been devastated,” and smile to yourself, (during a crisis).
Been there/done that.
Believe it or not, your ego has already started to melt…just questioning ego at/all is the beginning. These questions have a life of their own. You only think that you are doing them/questioning. In truth, they are doing you.
No right, and no wrong…just every day better and better.
So enjoy our breathing meditation, don’t be in a big old hurry. This is a love affair. Relax into it.
Peace,
S9
I'm obviously a fan of the spiritual 12 Step program of AA, its a bit like Buddhism where you can 'test' it to see if it works; though you have got to put the effort in; like Buddhism I guess.
And for me, the program has been both life saving and life changing and its opened my eyes to another possible dimension of living; hence why I'm here.
I won't be in a big hurry and I'll enjoy the journey; promise!
:uphand:
brian
http://the12stepbuddhist.com/ (this one is associated with the book you found)
Some links: http://www.kevingriffin.net/links.htm
http://www.sasana.org/Buddhist12steps.shtml
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/project/id14.html (this one would be interesting to go to - it meets in the "First Untied (sic) Methodist Church")
Palzang
Hmmmmm. On the face of it, The Programme of AA may seem to have Christian overtones, but its not compulsory. I've a friend who is Indian, he could be a Hindu (but I don't know because we haven't discussed it), and he's a real 'Big Book Thumper' (the AA equivalent of a Bible Basher), so it doesn't put him off and he celebrated his 13th year of sobriety yesterday. AA has no issue with religion and although you will hear the word god, that could be a Hindu, Christian, Pagan, or your own concept of 'god'.
Now AA does say its best if you can believe that there's a power greater than yourself, and where 'god' is mentioned, you just think of your own particular higher power. I've heard of people using dead relatives, and even an angel in one case!
For the atheists and agnostics, they often use the acronym G.O.D for Group of Drunks, which is essentially an AA Meeting Group. So for an atheist, Step 3 which is to turn your will and your life over to a power greater than yourself; what they would do is to imagine and do what the AA Group would want them to do. And the AA Group would want their members to stay sober, treat their family with respect, and go to work; be a normal, decent human being. Where some psychologists may suggest that the drunk gets in touch with their 'inner child', AA would suggest that their 'inner child' gets a job. I promise you its not all about 'god'.
I guess Buddhists could use one of the Buddhas or Karma; anything they consider to be a power greater than themselves; or just use G.O.D (Group of Drunks). Its a humility thing.
Okay, some - few and far between here in the UK - AA Meetings can be 'god orientated'; I tend to avoid those and people who 'like God' tend to go to those. At the two AA meetings I do service at, God, (or god) rarely get a mention, and personally I suspect that 12 Step Buddhism would be just reinventing the wheel, or maybe make a member feel different in some way.
Remember, drunks are drunks and we'll make all sorts of excuses to justify our drinking. People forced into AA by family will often say, "I tried AA and it didn't work", but that generally means the 'member' went to a couple of meetings, didn't do anything (its a programme of action), and then went back to what he/she really wanted to do; drink. "I can't do the 'god thing'" could be another excuse; not valid in my view since the majority of people I know in AA are agnostic or atheist.
AA is a spiritual programme, NOT a religion. It would be very bad form for any member to speak about a specific god at a meeting. However I may buy the book, just out of interest though.
I heard an AA story once about a guy who was complaining to his sponsor about his life and how terrible everything was. His sponsor told him to get a job and the other guy said, "But I feel so lousy all the time." The sponsor replied, "Then get a lousy job."
I still drink occasionally but I actually enjoy it more because its less a compulsion than a skillfully used activity.
I think that we are all self-medicating out here. Perhaps all that we really need to do its to pick our medication wisely.
(For instance, I use breath as my drug of choice. If I feel nervous or a little out of sorts, breath is always right there for me, "picks me right up, and puts me back on the road.")
I believe that our first premise, “that I am not happy, and not satisfied right now,” is correct. And even the feeling that something has to change is right on target. So what we need to look really closely at is…what I am doing to rectify my situation? Is what I am presently doing, WORKING? This is what you have very wisely called, Clarity.
One of the things we notice right away is that “Monkey Mind” is not reliable. It is all over the map, and back again, saying “drink/don’t drink/drink.” So we can just tune him out as a lost cause.
We immediately notice however that there is someone (is it intellect?) far wiser than the whims of thought (Mr. Monkey Mind) standing by, watching all of the time, non-stop, and perfectly willing to lend a hand. Some people have called this our ‘Higher Self.” (I think science would call it the reflective mind.) Mystics might call this ‘the Witness.” But, whatever it is, by tuning into that part of our selves, life begins to go a bit smoother, or to improve.
We, of course, as Buddhists realize that this is only the beginning of a new grand journey that travels far deeper given time. But, it IS (nevertheless) a good beginning.
Peace,
S9