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Take Refuge if you are serious.
RichardH
Veteran
If you consider yourself a serious practitioner, take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Enter the Sangha and learn the discipline of practice from a teacher. If you are interested in the Theravadin Lay Sangha cultivate a friendship with, and support the Ordained Sangha, honor and respect them, learn to prostrate.
If you just "practice" on your own and read books you will end up with deluded new age mush and think you are Enlightened when you have any kind of opening.
.........now please feel free to throw bricks:D.
If you just "practice" on your own and read books you will end up with deluded new age mush and think you are Enlightened when you have any kind of opening.
.........now please feel free to throw bricks:D.
0
Comments
Reading is a great place to start, and can give you the basic foundation you'll need to progress. There are many wonderful books out there, and you'll need to read a number of them. Start with an introductory book you find enjoyable, and gradually go deeper. Don't limit yourself only to Buddhist texts, either. The Tao Te Ching, for example, should be on your required reading list.
Books will only get you so far, of course. Meditation is essential. Learning to meditate is not difficult, but like anything, it requires practice. The objective is to shut off the constant "color-commentary" going on in our heads, that loquacious voice we know as the ego. The best way to do this is, simply, by listening to it. Focusing attention on that inner voice, it tends to become shy and quiets down. Suddenly, we realize the voice isn't "us." There's another entity, calmly observing behind the scenes. With practice, we experience this clear serenity more and more. It feels like the hint of a smile on the Buddha's lips, and life takes on an almost playful quality.
This isn't what I would define as "enlightenment," only the practice of being awake. It is a practice with certain demands. Once you have tasted life as an awakened being, however, they no longer seem like demands, but enjoyable activities. Mind, body, and spirit require constant nurturing and nourishment, like a garden needs constant tending.
Where formal practice may work best for some, others may find different paths work better for them. Use what works. Abandon what doesn't.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." ~ Buddha
Here's another: So some of us not as fortunate, thus having no choice but to stumble along in darkness, and alone at that
And whilst I'm slinging: Some of us do research here and can easily enough discern what' new age mush' is and what isn't - and know what books to study and which to leave alone as a result
And a 4th brick: for your somewhat inconsiderate tone
I was going to throw a 5th for your somewhat closed perceptions, but I'd be hypocritical in doing so.
I, too, fall in the category of not living near a Sangha or a teacher. My self practice and education has been a challenge to say the least.
As to considering myself enlightened, my almost perpetual confusion, ever expanding lack of knowledge and inability to extricate myself from paradox prevents me from ever thinking of myself as enlightened.
I guess what I do isn't really practice either, since you wrote it "as such." And apparently I'm not serious, either. I also didn't realize I thought I was Enlightened or that my opinions and understanding of the Dhamma thus far were "deluded new-age mush."
My Sangha isn't a brick-and-mortar one. There was no formal, symbolic, ceremonial gesture. Truly taking refuge is personal and internal.
Yeah, I understand how having a teacher is important for various reasons--particularly for certain people who are firm in their beliefs and unwilling to continue exploring after they've come to a conclusion--but they are not Enlightened either and as such one still has to have the ability to discern wisdom from bs.
But you're coming off very holier-than-thou with your "you're not serious/a real Buddhist unless you've taken Refuge" comments lately. Taking refuge as you describe is a symbolic commitment done out of formality (truly taking refuge is entirely internal and personal) and doesn't suddenly mean one is more entitled to discuss their opinion of the Dhamma or that what they speak is "True Dhamma" as you seemed to suggest in your other Thread.
"What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, it is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him. So what instructions should he have to give respecting the community of bhikkhus?
"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge."
— Maha-parinibbana Sutta
"Driven only by fear, do men go for refuge to many places — to hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines.
Such, indeed, is no safe refuge; such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one released from all suffering.
He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order, penetrates with transcendental wisdom the Four Noble Truths — suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the Noble Eightfold Path leading to the cessation of suffering.
This indeed is the safe refuge, this the refuge supreme. Having gone to such a refuge, one is released from all suffering."
— Dhammapada 188-192
Are you trying to offend people?
Edit-
Ooo I found another great quote
I don't feel that I need refuge from anything, or comfort from anyone. I simply want to be aware.
I am also skeptical of the reverence shown to leaders. At my sangha, the leader (Chogyam Trungpa) was an alcoholic womanizer who died of liver disease. I don't know the Dalai Lama, and the first Buddha died a thousand years ago, how can I take refuge or have faith in anyone I haven't even met or experienced first hand?
Someone may be able to point to a door, true. Door pointing may be helpful. But no way am I going to blindly trust that the door a stranger points to is the right one. Even if there is a picture of him on a thousand walls in a thousand temples. And who is to say what is New Age mush and what is true awareness or enlightenment or whatever you call it? Unless a teacher can read my mind, who else but me can evaluate my mind?
It seems most people are actually just looking for that mush, which goes to my first comment. Why hinder them in their quest for mush? Maybe its entertaining for them.
OK.
For what its worth, no I'm not trying to offend people. Obviously there are exceptions like medical issues and isolation.
as an aside. The topic of closed perceptions is interesting. My perceptions are ofcourse closed. These closed perceprions are always changing, some are repeating and many novel ones pop up. There are positve closed perceptions like "my weiner dog is good" negative closed perceprions "my weiner dog is bad". There are narrow closed perceptions like "this guy on the bus has B.O." and vast spiritual closed perceptions like " everything is one radiant being". For the practioner the last one can be a major block as we cling to it like the dickens.
You felt you were entitled to scold another member for them trying to explain their understanding verbally and and failing to do so in a way which made sense to you. You went so far as to say this:
This post suggests that you feel a person is not a "true Buddhist" unless they've done these things. As if there is only one way which someone can explain a common understanding in words, and as if only those who have taken formal Refuge and joined a Sangha and have a Dharma name are entitled to share their opinions and understandings, as if only those people are capable of "speaking true Dharma."
This was odd to hear from you after you said days ago that "In the end you realize that the authority and authenticity can only come from your own bones."
That isn't quite what you said or how you said it though. You said that those who don't take formal Refuge are not serious, that their practice is only "practice," that they WILL end up with nothing but deluded new-age mush and think themselves to be Enlightened. You didn't say it's a possibility (which would be pointless because it's a possibility within a formal Sangha as well,) you said it was inevitable. And, again, in other Threads, suggested that a person who has not done this cannot possibly even ATTEMPT to understand/explain "true Buddha Dharma."
Who gets to decide who gets an "exception" and who doesn't?
Did I say this person ( who got quite upset) wasn't a real Buddhist? They were making difinitive pronouncements about the "true nature of suchness" and I'm saying "come on". When I asked about where this person took refuge and what Sangha they practice in (sorry but thats not an unfair question) they got squirrly.
regarding the "being a light unto yourself" I just posted a response .
Regarding the first post in this thread. I was being provocative and was cheeky about it with the last statement and emoticon. Do you really thing I think you must learn to prostrate to be a Buddhist?
Regarding exceptions. It is not up to me to make exceptions. I am saying that there are people who do it alone.
If This site is not a fit for me, meaning people are coming from a very different place. That will become clear soon enough. It is after all just life on line.....
That's what you interpreted his words to mean. One person chose to challenge his statements and ask for clarification of terms rather than attack his "Buddhist credentials." That resulted in an understanding. What you did has resulted in you still failing to understand what that poster was truly trying to express.
They were making difinitive pronouncements of the "true nature of suchness" according to their understanding, not according to true Buddha Dharma. Again, that is all any of us or doing quite frankly, including those within a Sangha.
No doubt. Nothing wrong with challenging beliefs (but did you not just wag your finger at someone for expressing something in a way which you did not agree with?). But your posts don't challenge beliefs, they attack the credentials of those who hold them.
If you reread that first quote which you say you stand by, then yes, you kind of did.
I'm sorry this so upset you.
Good advice. I will follow.
I like to debate, but I have learned there are times when the person presented is possibly unhinged.
That is what I mean. maybe I'm wrong. I do not think you are unhinged, and I am not unhinged. Some people are.
I'll check in sometime to see how wrong I am.
But to say I/we are not serious is a bit of a leap of reasoning
Reacting with hostility and emotion not only misreads the intent (I think), but hinders us from creating a potentially enlightening conversation.
It's particularly interesting that Richard said this today, because I found it just now upon returning from my first temple visit (OK, I visited one before, but I wasn't really ready and it was many years ago).
I'm pretty excited by the new opportunities I'll have by being part of this sangha. I think it's going to speed my learning as a "Buddhist" and help me on my path. That said, I don't think it will make me more of a Buddhist than I was before.
I absolutely believe in finding great teachers and surrounding yourself with great communities; that is one area that I can sincerely say I practice what I preach. That said, everyone makes their own path and has their own journey. How you find that path and where it takes you are ultimately only up to you.
When dealing with others that you may not understand, at least at first, you should ask for clarification. And if you still don’t understand them, for whatever reason, ask for more clarification. This is called civil behavior, if you do not recognize it.
You should not however set yourself up as both judge and jury as to who is a REAL Buddhist and who is not. This, if nothing else, is totally unfair. Where is your compassion? Didn’t your teacher get to that lesson yet?
If a person is mistaken in their views, perhaps this is why they are here to mingle with others who may help them? It would be rather sadistic to take their mistakes as an opportunity to kick them, don’t you think?
We all think we are right at times, and the other guy is so wrong. But in those times, we should guard against being arrogant, even worse, saying things that simply discourage those newer seekers traveling behind us.
S9
good luck
Teacher or no teacher, everyone thinks they themselves are the final authority. Hard. Then they realize that there is no final authority. Easy. But on what authority do they judge? Neither hard nor easy.
Had my yearly physical this morning.....everything checked out ok. During the rectal exam I asked my doctor what he was looking for and he said his keys,
Have a nice day. Ill try not to be too sadistic.
....oh I should mention that it was an omission on my part not to say..."it goes without saying that if you can't connect with Sangha, thats another story"
Otherwise my initial post is... debatable yes.... an outrage?.....come on.
I have to agree with you that having a bones-and-flesh Teacher can be very helpful, though. A living example is worth a thousand books, as I know from being around the few people that I know, who somewhat share my spiritual beliefs and who are farther along the path than I am. Unfortunately for me, I don't have such a person in my life, maybe because I haven't pulled myself together enough to go and find one.
As far as the sangha goes, I have strong reservations about that. First of all, why do we call it "sangha" and not a "community", a "support group" or, better yet, simply "friends"? Therein lies the root of my reservation about the matter. It seems like most Buddhist groups adopt elements of foreign cultures into their practice, such as using numerous non-English words, wearing foreign clothing and practicing etiquette from far away lands. Not only is that an awful like religion (and I am apprehensive about religion in general), but I am quite comfortable with my cultural background as it is and I don't seek to change it. I am who I am and I believe that Buddhism is versatile enough for one the way he or she is. If I really wanted a *religion* with costumes, rituals, dogma and all, I'd just go with what is "natural" for me, which happens to be Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
Finally, no brick throwing on my part-- it is definitely not in the spirit of Buddhism, no matter how you look at it
Peace!
We're sharpening our pitchforks, Richard.
The main issue lies in your initial post speaking in absolutes, while later on you change your stance to "it's not inferior, it's just harder," and, "what I described is just a possible outcome." If this is what you meant by your first post, then I agree. But as we've seen recently, language is flawed. So perhaps it was just all a misundnerstanding. Luckily, it's all just one person's opinion, either way.
Perhaps this is what happened with Subjectivity as well, and perhaps he wasn't simply "unhinged" and did deserve a listen to, or at the very least, a chance to learn something and not simply be dismissed/criticized based on superficial "credentials."
I think you make a very good point about the adoption of another culture, That is something that was a big barrier for me, and I still think some folks entering some traditions become cultural wannabe's. The Dharma is becoming more and more a native western tradition. Some of the Western ordained Sangha have been practicing now for 40 years or so, and for their students there is nothing remotely transplanted about it. The Buddha-Dharma-Sangha refuge is of-a-piece for reasons of efficacy worked out over centuries, and it is still evolving.
Another reason why Sangha is, in my view, essential is because the Dharma is a particular path that bares a superficial resemblence to others. You can actually do something else. There is such a thing as Buddhadharma, and it can be misunderstood.
Furthermore with meditation, there are many ways to go astray. A surprising number of people with prior psychlogical issues end up going down a rabbit hole, especially if they are absorbing a lot of Vajrayana teachings.
Mundus.
We can debate. thats great. As far as subjectivity is concerned, I'll try some direct exchanges sometime and maybe get to know this person. Maybe the Maitreya-like solemnity does not indicate fairies under the porch after all.
This isn’t the first time that I have seen you start off with strong and aggressive language in a post, only to alter it when people took offence.
I am beginning to suspect that you are one of the “naughty boys” that gets attention by misbehaving; anything rather that than be ignored, huh?
S9
--Oh, wait. That was actually pretty passive-agressive. Dangit! We might as well reword what you said as:
I think you mean, you might end up with deluded new age mush and think you are enlightened...
or you will probably...at the most.
It's not certain that all who only practice on their own will end up that way.
Hmmmm.....
I'm not so sure....
we used to have philosophy classes at school, and our teacher used to come in with newspaper clippings, on maybe.... teenage pregnancies, or vegetarianism, and make comments such as;
"This stupid little girl has gotten herself pregnant, and now wants us to bear the cost of raising her child! It's outrageous! have you all seen this???"
Then, she would put up the specific article on an overhead projector, and get us to read it...
Naturally, I now see her statement was designed to provoke strong responses from us (teenage girls) and gradually, she would soften her approach, and arbitrate, or play Devil's advocate.
She was actually very gifted and articulate, and I learnt a great deal from her.
I wanted to understand what Richard was saying about me, by calling me Maitreya-like, so I Googled it. It said some people say this person is rather like the anti-Christ. Is that what he said?
If so, that is very fundamentalist of him.
I would ask Richard, but I am beginning to suspect he is capable of not quite being truthful.
I guess what I am saying is, that as good willed as you are trying to be, and you may just be wasting your time. I don’t want him to bring you down or cause you harm with his negativity, sweet person.
S9
Don't worry about the Maitreya comment; it's not worth it. (That isn't what he meant, btw - but what he did mean isn't worth getting upset over either).
It is one thing to hold up an article and do this little trick to start conversation flowing.
It would be another thing, all together,if she had chosen one of your classmates and held them up to scorn. That would be petty, if not cruel, don't you think? Even worse, what if it was you?
Or what if she point at you all as a class, (much like pointing at the Buddhist lay community out there), and said you are all idiots until you are educated just like me?
Would that be a good thing? What if it discouraged someone, already having a hard row to hoe and doing it alone because of circumstances?
Here in TN, where I live, you would be hard pressed to find a Buddhist community. Heck, they only have one Catholic church in my town held in a storefront. Do I need him bad mouthing me?
The only reason I am bothering to confront is because of people like M out there fighting my battles for me. I can't jusy leave M out there alone.
S9
Vajrayana? Nah-- for me it's mostly breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out etc
Speaking of rabbit holes, I actually used to follow a certain neo-Hinduist teaching with a lot of occult elements in it. That was exciting at times but so overwhelming that the rabbit hole was getting pretty close. Continuing was not an option if I were to stay sane so I quit and looked elsewhere.
So little by little, I rejected all supernatural beliefs, which were the ones that led to most of my confusion (as there was no reference point for them in real life experience and I'd get lost in essentially fantasies) and found that Buddhist way of looking at suffering made a lot of sense. Doing a little breathing and doing it mindfully often proved beneficial by helping me untangle myself from whatever I am entangled in. So that's where I am now and my emotional and mental well-being is mostly satisfactory, unlike in the days before.
Let me just say that, what you are doing makes a whole lot of sense to me. It is always one breath at a time. Anything else would be forced and pretending.
To me Buddhism isn’t so much something we do; as it is who we are right now. When you are comfortable with staying right here in this very moment, that very moment will teach you everything you need to know.
S9
Ok, I see. Some people do speak in such absolutes purposely, so I guess I just assumed...:cool:
Aw man, I wish I could've gone with you. Too bad you didn't go while I was still there.
(Also, I feel like we're whispering to each other in a rowdy bar - this thread is still rather overly confrontational :wtf: )
What, if anything, are we discussing, exactly?
Education?
'True' Buddhism?
Confrontation?
Intransigence?
Huh?
Others: Don't respond to that crap. I left it only to serve as a warning. Some of the comments here were already toeing the line; now my hackles are up.
If you can't respond intelligently and calmly, stay out of the discussion until you can.
This is our home. It's like coming into our house. You're welcome here, you can have tea, we'll get you a beer if you want.
Do NOT come into our house calling other guests names or telling them to stick a sock in it.
Be considerate.