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Its not you Richard, other people have said to me previously that i MUST have a teacher, or i cant do this. It is very negative and must put people off. Ive spent many a night weeping because i apparantly will never be able to do it on my own.
Whether you have a teacher or not, you still must do it on your own. Don't be discouraged by anything anybody says to you. You can do this. It can be easy, or it can be hard. It's all up to you.
My measure of success is simple. Am I better than I was yesterday? If the answer is yes, I am content. If the answer is no, I make changes.
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting." ~ Buddha
Whether you have a teacher or not, you still must do it on your own. Don't be discouraged by anything anybody says to you. You can do this. It can be easy, or it can be hard. It's all up to you.
My measure of success is simple. Am I better than I was yesterday? If the answer is yes, I am content. If the answer is no, I make changes.
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting." ~ Buddha
Thank you I respond much better to encouragement LOL
I was told to get rid of his books and have nothing to do with his teachings. I ask because it's the only buddhist centre I have
OH BOY Collective. That is a major can of worms and a long story. I would highly suggest not opening it. If you are interested in an outsiders neutral view I would be happy to share it with you privately, But it leads to strife on line. Strange I know.
I was told to get rid of his books and have nothing to do with his teachings. I ask because it's the only buddhist centre I have
That statement makes me instantly want to get all his books and study his teaching. Heh.
I am highly suspicious of anybody who would so obviously attempt to censor the teachings of another. A person free from their own agenda might caution you to practice healthy skepticism, but would not discourage open investigation. "Read it and see for yourself," would be their advice. Maybe the teachings are rubbish, but I'll be the judge of that, thank you very much.
A quick Google search shows me that the teacher in question, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, appears to be well respected and his books highly regarded. I can only guess that the debate stems from the Dorje Shugden controversy, in which the status of a particular deity figure is in dispute.
According to Wikipedia:
"Consistent with the lineage teachings he received from his root Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang believes that the practice of Dorje Shugden should continue to be practised by any Gelugpas who wish to do so. This view differs from that held by the current Dalai Lama, who, despite having received the same lineage teachings, now actively discourages this practice.[59] However, as it is an independent Western Buddhist organization, the Dalai Lama has no authority in terms of how the NKT-IKBU is organized and what practices are taught.[60] The controversy surrounding the Dalai Lama's ban of the practice of Dorje Shugden is described in the article on the Dorje Shugden Controversy."
It seems to me the controversy is mainly political/theological, so I wouldn't be too concerned by it unless you are already aligned with one camp or the other. It is clear that Kelsang is an accomplished teacher, and one could no doubt learn much from him. I can see the focus of much of his work is on developing compassion. If I knew nothing more about him, that would be enough. I also see that many people have benefited greatly from his insights and wisdom. Don't let argumentative Tibetans stand in the way of your progress. Shed the light of reason upon all you learn, and decide for yourself what to keep and what to reject.
And shame on whoever told you to throw away his books and avoid his teaching. Shame, indeed.
The NKT seems to attract people with persecution complexes and extremely hostile modes of response to even the slightest adversity. Or else perhaps it fosters those qualities in some of them. Perhaps most NKT practitioners are extremely nice, but the ones I've met on the internet have mostly been trouble. There are definitely cult-like qualities to the organization, but it's hard to separate them from the sense of persecution and hostility. Here's an essay by a friend of mine about his experience of several years with the NKT. (He was never trouble, even when he was NKT. )
Boy, don't even get me started on the NKT! Best to be avoided, imho. However, before the whole Dorje Shugden thing blew up, I did read a couple of books by Geshe and found them useful and well written. So as usual in samsara, it's not so black-and-white. And I'm not sure everyone in it is evil or wants to crush all the other Buddhist sects. It's mostly just complicated Tibetan spiritual politics, which really hasn't got much to do with any of us.
Well, at the risk of seeming a bit confrontational myself, I would simply like to ask those who think they can do better on their own how successful they've been "doing it on their own" for the last umpteen trillion countless lifetimes they've lived? Of course, the response will most likely be that they don't believe in "reincarnation" (whatever that is), but that is what the Buddha taught. If indeed it is true that bodhisattvas return to this crappy life over and over again just out of their boundless love for sentient beings and the wish to liberate every one of them, might it not be worth it to check it out and see for yourself?
I don't believe in karma or rebirth and think they are the products of wishful thinking (Mara, by another name.) I've never seen the point of "going for refuge." The dharma is either true or it's not. I either follow it or I don't.
Having said that, I would LOVE to have a teacher. I'd even sit patiently and silently through karma/rebirth lectures. But I live in BFE and there simply is no available qualified teacher. There are other Buddhists, but they are very scattered so a sanga is problematical also. I read extensively and listen to recorded dharma talks by a variety of teachers (mostly Pema Chodron). It will have to do. I'm not much concerned with reaching enlightenment. I will settle for cessation of some of my suffering and being free from most of my illusions. That puts me WAY ahead of where I was.
Yes, it's hard. But this is a hard path anyway. If Thich Nhat Hanh was your roommate, it would still be extremely difficult and you could (and probably would occasionally) lose your way.
Or ask yourself this: how successful are alcoholics (or other addicts) at "doing it on their own?"
Palzang
I asked the internet that question a few years ago. At that time most studies were saying that about 1/3 do it with AA, about 1/3 do it with traditional counseling and about 1/3 do it on their own. That means 2/3 need help and 1/3 don't. I quit smoking in 1983(!) and did it all on my own. One minute I was a smoker and the next I was not.* My son-in-law quit drugs the same way. Both of us are aware that we're in the minority and most people are not "doing it on their own."
*ok, I was a non-smoker who was as miserable as hammered dog poo-poo for about a week
My sincerest sympathies go out to anyone living in Okie-land. Although, amazingly enough, I really grew to like Tulsa when I was there on several trips with another monk who had cancer and was going to the Cancer Treatment Center there (great place, btw). I liked it despite Oral. What's even weirder is that I came upon a house there down by the river that I had had a very vivid dream about years before, long before I ever saw Tulsa. In the dream I also had the distinct feeling that this was the house I was going to take my next rebirth in. It was a very nice dream, and I remember feeling very comfortable there. Weird, huh?
My sincerest sympathies go out to anyone living in Okie-land. Although, amazingly enough, I really grew to like Tulsa when I was there on several trips with another monk who had cancer and was going to the Cancer Treatment Center there (great place, btw). I liked it despite Oral. What's even weirder is that I came upon a house there down by the river that I had had a very vivid dream about years before, long before I ever saw Tulsa. In the dream I also had the distinct feeling that this was the house I was going to take my next rebirth in. It was a very nice dream, and I remember feeling very comfortable there. Weird, huh?
Palzang
Oklahoma needs me (she said modestly)
I lived for a while in Tulsa and agree that it's nice (except for ORU). Norman's a pretty cool place, though, and the moment I laid eyes on it I knew I was home.
I'm in new to ths site and surprised by this thread. I wonder how the Buddha would have responded to the original post. Whatever his response would have been, I don't think he would have entered a finger-pointing type debate. I think ego's are interfering from both sides.
Although this can be debated - the Buddha became awakended without a specific guru, without a pre-existing Sangha and he developed the Dhamma. He said we all have Buddhanature within us.
My progression has been largely on my own and I don't believe I need more than myself to continue my progress, but I very much hope to find a guru that can develop that special bond with me to help me progress. I absolutely think that if I find the right guru it will be of tremendous help to me on my path.
Still, in my small city where an average of 8 to 15 people meet for the weekly Sangha meeting, I will to the best I can to continue my Buddhist journey. And I believe the larger world-wide Sangha will quietly support my efforts.
I have heard my Guru mentioned before that if in your heart, you trust and wish sincerely to rely on the teachings of the buddha, then you have in a way taken refuge already. If we have taken formal refuge but do not hold our refuge vows well, then it is worse as we are misrepesenting the Dharma...from what I've read somewhere, it is equavalent to accumulated karma of killing a thousand buddhas (we know what buddhas cannot be killed, thus we are talking about the heaviness of karma)
May obstacles be cleared and conducive conditions to manifest for us to meet our root Guru.
May we always have a qualified spiritual guide in our lives to guide us out of samsara.
Taking refuge--is basic to Buddhist practice whether we go through a formal ceremony or not. It comes out of an understanding of the Four Noble Truths. It's what happens ideally every time we sit down on the cushion. We check motivation, and we're clear on why we sit. Ideally, we sit to benefit self and others and we acknowledge that the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are our path to liberation. Every moment is an opportunity to take refuge in awareness itself.
Taking refuge has long been a part of my personal practice, even in the days when I did not think of myself as a Buddhist. I took these vows each time I attended a meditation retreat. Taking refuge is what separates a Buddhist from a non-Buddhist.
Taking refuge is an opportunity to set our arrogance aside. It's a beautiful practice.
Here's one brick: there's not a teacher for many miles where I live
Here's another: So some of us not as fortunate, thus having no choice but to stumble along in darkness, and alone at that
And whilst I'm slinging: Some of us do research here and can easily enough discern what' new age mush' is and what isn't - and know what books to study and which to leave alone as a result
And a 4th brick: for your somewhat inconsiderate tone
I was going to throw a 5th for your somewhat closed perceptions, but I'd be hypocritical in doing so.
Collective, I notice that you live in Wales, which because of the relatively low cost of property until recently has more Buddhist centres than just about anywhere in the UK....
Collective, I notice that you live in Wales, which because of the relatively low cost of property until recently has more Buddhist centres than just about anywhere in the UK....
Ooh, interesting. Does it out number London though?
Seeing this old thread again is like seeing an old dead fish. It was provocative and contains old conlicts. People will practice how they practice and thats that. I need Sangha but cant speak for you.
I was shocked too, when I first came to this forum. I guess I was under the illusion that Buddhists were somehow less apt to attack other people on the path over details, or that they were somehow special and a different breed of human being; a little like angels.
But this was only my second thread to post here, and the fundamentalist ideas/dogma amounting to, "My way is the only right way," had already shown its ugly head, both 'loud and clear.' : ^ (
I decided to let this be a lesson to me about expectations, and to try instead to learn 2 major things: (1) Not to be too thin skinned, and (2) To learn patience with others, and to practice it as well, as I am sure that others have had to learn this in their dealings with me.
Peace is a skill and must be learned. This is not always easy or 'sweetness and nice.' I wish it was that simple. : ^ )
Metta muscles grow only while lifting the weights of oppression, and not by either hiding or pretending that everything is just fine in this world. So perhaps taking refuge shouldn't be seen as a vacation from life, but good hard work. : ^ )
Seeing this old thread again is like seeing an old dead fish. It was provocative and contains old conlicts. People will practice how they practice and thats that. I need Sangha but cant speak for you.
Don't be disheartened. I appreciate your efforts. Refuge is a wonderful practice. Thank you.
I was shocked too, when I first came to this forum. I guess I was under the illusion that Buddhists were somehow less apt to attack other people on the path over details, or that they were somehow special and a different breed of human being; a little like angels.
But this was only my second thread to post here, and the fundamentalist ideas/dogma amounting to, "My way is the only right way," had already shown its ugly head, both 'loud and clear.' : ^ (
I decided to let this be a lesson to me about expectations, and to try instead to learn 2 major things: (1) Not to be too thin skinned, and (2) To learn patience with others, and to practice it as well, as I am sure that others have had to learn this in their dealings with me.
Peace is a skill and must be learned. This is not always easy or 'sweetness and nice.' I wish it was that simple. : ^ )
Metta muscles grow only while lifting the weights of oppression, and not by either hiding or pretending that everything is just fine in this world. So perhaps taking refuge shouldn't be seen as a vacation from life, but good hard work. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
Rather than become thick skinned I will use my sensitvity to wake myself up. It's a woman's way to be with feelings. I'm good with it. You may notice I took out my 'shocked' reaction in my post.
Sky: Rather than become thick skinned I will use my sensitivity to wake myself up.
S9: Please don’t think that I meant by the fact that I would try to stop being sooo thin skinned that, I meant that I would also close myself off in some way to my enviromnment and wisdom, and not continue to keep an open and loving heart. Men and women aren’t so very different in this.
What I actually meant to convey is that, I would stop taking things quite so personal, and either linger on a statement that I let hurt me in an unskillful manner, or even go on the defense and strike out in order to protect a fragile ego self.
: ^ )
I would also like to point out, once again, that debate is not necessarily synonymous with arguing. In educated circles, it is used quite efficiently to both learn and open minds to multiple ways of seeing any one issue.
We don’t just have to agree on everything in order to get along. I hope we can be more flexible than that.
: ^ (
Checking out difference in our understandings can actually be useful to us, that is if we can keep our egos from running wild, take a deep breath from time to time, and just chill.
I don’t want to throw out the baby (constructive debate) with the bath water (arguing).
; ^ )
Sky: Rather than become thick skinned I will use my sensitivity to wake myself up.
S9: Please don’t think that I meant by the fact that I would try to stop being sooo thin skinned that, I meant that I would also close myself off in some way to my enviromnment and wisdom, and not continue to keep an open and loving heart. Men and women aren’t so very different in this.
What I actually meant to convey is that, I would stop taking things quite so personal, and either linger on a statement that I let hurt me in an unskillful manner, or even go on the defense and strike out in order to protect a fragile ego self.
: ^ )
I would also like to point out, once again, that debate is not necessarily synonymous with arguing. In educated circles, it is used quite efficiently to both learn and open minds to multiple ways of seeing any one issue.
We don’t just have to agree on everything in order to get along. I hope we can be more flexible than that.
: ^ (
Checking out difference in our understandings can actually be useful to us, that is if we can keep our egos from running wild, take a deep breath from time to time, and just chill.
I don’t want to throw out the baby (constructive debate) with the bath water (arguing).
; ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
I'm on my own mission to discuss and debate Buddhism without arguing. Wish me luck.
Ooh, interesting. Does it out number London though?
Wales is a great place for buddhist retreats.
It does Nios. The Brecon Beacons alone has more Buddhist retreat Centres than London. As I say, it goes back to when property was very cheap in Wales, no longer the case.
It does Nios. The Brecon Beacons alone has more Buddhist retreat Centres than London. As I say, it goes back to when property was very cheap in Wales, no longer the case.
If you consider yourself a serious practitioner, take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Enter the Sangha and learn the discipline of practice from a teacher. If you are interested in the Theravadin Lay Sangha cultivate a friendship with, and support the Ordained Sangha, honor and respect them, learn to prostrate.
If you just "practice" on your own and read books you will end up with deluded new age mush and think you are Enlightened when you have any kind of opening.
.........now please feel free to throw bricks:D.
Thank you for the invitation.
Quite an old post above and evidence of change (impermanence).
Indeed, some posters start with honor and respect for the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha but then just end up with deluded self-affirming new age mush.
Quite an old post above and evidence of change (impermanence).
Indeed, some posters start with honor and respect for the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha but then just end up with deluded self-affirming new age mush.
Big kisses back to you too, my favourite internet sock puppet. It was nice when I was a Buddhist, but you know I just got bored and went in for a fantasy instead. Now I spend my time holding my hands over my eyes and saying I'm not here. The Narcissim is so intense I need a meditation monitor to whack me with a stick so I can just see the floor through thick stew of delusion. O gawd I'm glad for the light of your understanding.
My teacher is life, and an able teacher it is.
Is your teacher more qualified than mine?
To see the greatest of one teacher/mentor in life - is to see the behavour and wisdom manifested at the students
on how much the students could expand his life and contributed to this world/ humanity in one's limited life existence , and his spirtual / wisdom legancy could endured for how many generations down to continue benifit the people ...
then this is truely fulfil the advent of one's teacher to this earth, since both the teacher and the student could become as one in continue the noble spirit for salvation, and such pure & noble dharmic relation could continue to pass down generation after generation
In Mahayana doctine , the student body is known as the vessel , so the pure flow of the teaching is passed down the generation , avoid to be tained or leaked
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how can one leave everything and head out to the direction of proper teachings and guidance? I wish to go to an authentic monastery in asia somewhere. What would be entailed in creating this journey into an itinerary?
Comments
My measure of success is simple. Am I better than I was yesterday? If the answer is yes, I am content. If the answer is no, I make changes.
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting." ~ Buddha
I respond much better to encouragement
Though I will hasten to add it isn't a joke from where I'm sitting.
==========
Perhaps I can change the flow here. Genuine question for you all: why is this sorely frowned upon?
http://meditationinwales.org
I was told to get rid of his books and have nothing to do with his teachings. I ask because it's the only buddhist centre I have
That statement makes me instantly want to get all his books and study his teaching. Heh.
I am highly suspicious of anybody who would so obviously attempt to censor the teachings of another. A person free from their own agenda might caution you to practice healthy skepticism, but would not discourage open investigation. "Read it and see for yourself," would be their advice. Maybe the teachings are rubbish, but I'll be the judge of that, thank you very much.
A quick Google search shows me that the teacher in question, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, appears to be well respected and his books highly regarded. I can only guess that the debate stems from the Dorje Shugden controversy, in which the status of a particular deity figure is in dispute.
According to Wikipedia:
And shame on whoever told you to throw away his books and avoid his teaching. Shame, indeed.
Palzang
I don't believe in karma or rebirth and think they are the products of wishful thinking (Mara, by another name.) I've never seen the point of "going for refuge." The dharma is either true or it's not. I either follow it or I don't.
Having said that, I would LOVE to have a teacher. I'd even sit patiently and silently through karma/rebirth lectures. But I live in BFE and there simply is no available qualified teacher. There are other Buddhists, but they are very scattered so a sanga is problematical also. I read extensively and listen to recorded dharma talks by a variety of teachers (mostly Pema Chodron). It will have to do. I'm not much concerned with reaching enlightenment. I will settle for cessation of some of my suffering and being free from most of my illusions. That puts me WAY ahead of where I was.
Yes, it's hard. But this is a hard path anyway. If Thich Nhat Hanh was your roommate, it would still be extremely difficult and you could (and probably would occasionally) lose your way.
I asked the internet that question a few years ago. At that time most studies were saying that about 1/3 do it with AA, about 1/3 do it with traditional counseling and about 1/3 do it on their own. That means 2/3 need help and 1/3 don't. I quit smoking in 1983(!) and did it all on my own. One minute I was a smoker and the next I was not.* My son-in-law quit drugs the same way. Both of us are aware that we're in the minority and most people are not "doing it on their own."
*ok, I was a non-smoker who was as miserable as hammered dog poo-poo for about a week
I can bear witness that it is pretty freekin' miserable.
Be rational, FB... Surprised you even asked......huh....:rolleyes:
(That was just a joke everyone. No offense FB, I was just kidding with you.
Frivolity fully intended. Don't take it seriously.)
Was that ok?
Palzang
Oklahoma needs me (she said modestly)
I lived for a while in Tulsa and agree that it's nice (except for ORU). Norman's a pretty cool place, though, and the moment I laid eyes on it I knew I was home.
Palzang
Although this can be debated - the Buddha became awakended without a specific guru, without a pre-existing Sangha and he developed the Dhamma. He said we all have Buddhanature within us.
My progression has been largely on my own and I don't believe I need more than myself to continue my progress, but I very much hope to find a guru that can develop that special bond with me to help me progress. I absolutely think that if I find the right guru it will be of tremendous help to me on my path.
Still, in my small city where an average of 8 to 15 people meet for the weekly Sangha meeting, I will to the best I can to continue my Buddhist journey. And I believe the larger world-wide Sangha will quietly support my efforts.
May obstacles be cleared and conducive conditions to manifest for us to meet our root Guru.
May we always have a qualified spiritual guide in our lives to guide us out of samsara.
Taking refuge has long been a part of my personal practice, even in the days when I did not think of myself as a Buddhist. I took these vows each time I attended a meditation retreat. Taking refuge is what separates a Buddhist from a non-Buddhist.
Taking refuge is an opportunity to set our arrogance aside. It's a beautiful practice.
Ooh, interesting. Does it out number London though?
Wales is a great place for buddhist retreats.
I was shocked too, when I first came to this forum. I guess I was under the illusion that Buddhists were somehow less apt to attack other people on the path over details, or that they were somehow special and a different breed of human being; a little like angels.
But this was only my second thread to post here, and the fundamentalist ideas/dogma amounting to, "My way is the only right way," had already shown its ugly head, both 'loud and clear.' : ^ (
I decided to let this be a lesson to me about expectations, and to try instead to learn 2 major things: (1) Not to be too thin skinned, and (2) To learn patience with others, and to practice it as well, as I am sure that others have had to learn this in their dealings with me.
Peace is a skill and must be learned. This is not always easy or 'sweetness and nice.' I wish it was that simple. : ^ )
Metta muscles grow only while lifting the weights of oppression, and not by either hiding or pretending that everything is just fine in this world. So perhaps taking refuge shouldn't be seen as a vacation from life, but good hard work. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
It seems less likely to cause arguments that way.
My good e-friend. We are all growing, and making mistakes along the way.
I, for one, have been very impressed with the rapid change in you, and admire you greatly for this. : ^ )
Keep on/keeping on.
Great Respect coming your way,
S9
Sky: Rather than become thick skinned I will use my sensitivity to wake myself up.
S9: Please don’t think that I meant by the fact that I would try to stop being sooo thin skinned that, I meant that I would also close myself off in some way to my enviromnment and wisdom, and not continue to keep an open and loving heart. Men and women aren’t so very different in this.
What I actually meant to convey is that, I would stop taking things quite so personal, and either linger on a statement that I let hurt me in an unskillful manner, or even go on the defense and strike out in order to protect a fragile ego self.
: ^ )
I would also like to point out, once again, that debate is not necessarily synonymous with arguing. In educated circles, it is used quite efficiently to both learn and open minds to multiple ways of seeing any one issue.
We don’t just have to agree on everything in order to get along. I hope we can be more flexible than that.
: ^ (
Checking out difference in our understandings can actually be useful to us, that is if we can keep our egos from running wild, take a deep breath from time to time, and just chill.
I don’t want to throw out the baby (constructive debate) with the bath water (arguing).
; ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
I had no idea.
Quite an old post above and evidence of change (impermanence).
Indeed, some posters start with honor and respect for the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha but then just end up with deluded self-affirming new age mush.
To see the greatest of one teacher/mentor in life - is to see the behavour and wisdom manifested at the students
on how much the students could expand his life and contributed to this world/ humanity in one's limited life existence , and his spirtual / wisdom legancy could endured for how many generations down to continue benifit the people ...
then this is truely fulfil the advent of one's teacher to this earth, since both the teacher and the student could become as one in continue the noble spirit for salvation, and such pure & noble dharmic relation could continue to pass down generation after generation
In Mahayana doctine , the student body is known as the vessel , so the pure flow of the teaching is passed down the generation , avoid to be tained or leaked
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Nice judgement. The Buddha obviously practiced new age mush then.
Though I would say, get a teacher if you can.