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Well, at the risk of seeming a bit confrontational myself, I would simply like to ask those who think they can do better on their own how successful they've been "doing it on their own" for the last umpteen trillion countless lifetimes they've lived? Of course, the response will most likely be that they don't believe in "reincarnation" (whatever that is), but that is what the Buddha taught. If indeed it is true that bodhisattvas return to this crappy life over and over again just out of their boundless love for sentient beings and the wish to liberate every one of them, might it not be worth it to check it out and see for yourself?
Or ask yourself this: how successful are alcoholics (or other addicts) at "doing it on their own?"
The four or five contacts I've had with a teacher were crucial, though. (Despite being from a Tibetan lineage, he also doesn't accept the role of literal reincarnation in Buddhist cosmology, by the way. It's not essential to the practice at all. In fact, it gets in the way at a certain point.)
Lighten up stormtroopers! That "crap" deemed "absolutely unacceptable" is light hearted humor between the op and myself. We happen to be friends. If arbitrarily censuring and deleting a thread is a prerogative - DO IT! - don't threaten. These posts have cast a pall on an otherwise open and accepting forum. Why are hackles up so readily? Why the tendency to discriminate against "new people"? Don't get it. You both misunderstood and ASSumed without taking a moment to reflect. Again, lighten up.
Well, at the risk of seeming a bit confrontational myself, I would simply like to ask those who think they can do better on their own how successful they've been "doing it on their own" for the last umpteen trillion countless lifetimes they've lived?
I'm only aware of having lived this particular lifetime, so... With respect, "Of course, the response will most likely be that they don't believe in "reincarnation" (whatever that is), but that is what the Buddha taught" is really a whole other debate. But let's entertain it: perhaps you've been studying with a teacher in all your past human lives, for trillions of countless lifetimes; how far has it gotten you? I'm not sure how this is a legitimate argument when it could be made either way (or do you have insight into our past lives? =P)
No one is saying that they're too good for a teacher, or can do it all on their own. But some of us can't, at least right now, join a Sangha. Some of us have, and haven't found a proper teacher yet (not all teachers are made equal, and quite a few only delude their students further). We were arguing that statements like "you will inevitably fall down the rabbit hole, develop opinions based on new-age crap and think you're Enlightened, and cannot progress or understand true Buddha Dhamma without a teacher" are extreme and unfair.
I personally try to study the suttas carefully. I read from numerous sources, and never blindly accept "Buddha Dhamma hearsay." I'm careful not to get stuck in one understanding, and am always open to learning more. Those here, who are more experienced than me, books, the suttas, retreat/Dhamma talk recordings...these are my "teachers" right now. I practise meditation daily.
I try to be very self-disciplined. You have to be, even if your teacher is a "proper" one. In the end, you DO have to do it on your own. The real work is up to you. A teacher can only help point you in the proper direction faster. They can also completely mislead you.
I hope someday I'll be able to experience a brick-n-mortar Sangha. But I think everyone here has a lot to teach each other, including those "silly, simple layfolk who don't have a Dhamma name."
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2009
All I know is that I am as ignorant of elevated teachings as anyone could be, but I already know enough in my own mind, to my satisfaction, to be able to discriminate between someone who's a genuinely devoted Dhamma teacher, and one who's frankly, full of egotistic bull.....
To a certain extent, we all have a strong opinion or another on what makes a Buddhist, and what doesn't..... but opinion is all it is...The only truly wrong opinion, is one that is shuttered to being altered.
And yes....
Constructive dialogue and animated debate, is one thing.
Name-calling and admonishments such as that from DB, are unacceptable.
Had my two 'bosses' not made mention, I would certainly have done. And I'm afraid I'm actually less lenient than they are......:mad:
Lighten up stormtroopers! That "crap" deemed "absolutely unacceptable" is light hearted humor between the op and myself. We happen to be friends. If arbitrarily censuring and deleting a thread is a prerogative - DO IT! - don't threaten. These posts have cast a pall on an otherwise open and accepting forum. Why are hackles up so readily? Why the tendency to discriminate against "new people"? Don't get it. You both misunderstood and ASSumed without taking a moment to reflect. Again, lighten up.
Let me explain something to you:
All we 'stormtroopers' have to go on, is black and white words on a page.
But we've had name calling, trolling, flaming stalking and liberally strewn insults here too many times - recently, too - to ignore potential conflict.
You have to bear in mind that we cannot tell who are friends and who are not. As the matter stands, you say you and the OP are friends.
I'm delighted.
But we have standards here, and courtesy, respect and dignity are required.
You want to tell someone they're full of it, or to put a sock in it or anything else for that matter (in that vein) then feel free to do so. Somewhere else.
But please - don't tell us to lighten up when it's our job to ensure that everybody - regardless of who they are - receives courtesy, respect and the dignified right to voice their thoughts without harassment, rudeness, or ridicule.
We don't delete threads because there are legitimate, valid, cogent and educational comments by others that warrant reading and consideration.
We do, however, delete posts we consider inappropriate, out-of-line and discourteous, from time to time....
If you disagree with our requirements, then you can always let rip elsewhere.
Ok. I think the heat generated by this thread is due to one key phrase in the opening post. "If you consider yourself a....."
This points directly at our..my self view. When I consider myself ..... any questioning of that identity is a questioning of ME. Otherwise no heat would be generated. That is the lesson I'm taking from this, not about anyone else, but about our nature.
For the record I am and have always been a lousy student and sometimes wanker. It is only because I have had the good fortune to be with people much wiser than me for so long, that some authenticity has been absorbed by simple osmosis.
I have to say Valentorg. Even if I was saying "this is how it is...period" so what? A lot of people on this site make claims, and people just say ahh stick a sock in it.
Do you even bother to read the preceding threads containing black and white words? How could you think this op would be so mortally offended by something he seemed to expect. Don't push so hard. And who are you serving inviting anyone to leave?
Or ask yourself this: how successful are alcoholics (or other addicts) at "doing it on their own?"
Of the two substance abusers I've known well, one is doing extremely well on his own and the other is getting help and struggling. In fact, I'd say he's in serious trouble right now. Of course, any statistician will point out that my sample is small and non-random. :-)
For those of us old enough to remember the Vietnamese War, there was a lot of concern about large numbers of addicted soldiers returning when the war ended. The fact that many soldiers in Vietnam were heroin addicts was well attested, but the problem never materialized. Most of the addictions ended during the plane ride back to the states.
I'm not advocating that people with substance abuse problems try to go it alone. I'm just pointing out that they make a poor argument in a debate about the role of teachers in Buddhism.
On the topic of irritating posters, a frequent poster here often and helpfully points out that that which irritates us can be helpful in our practice. I thought this was one of the better series of posts that Richard has made. Whether I found them irritating or not is a matter I will discuss with the meditation cushion. :-)
Dogs Bollucks was making a joke to me,But I can understand that if the moderators do not know that we know each other on joking terms, it can, in the contexts of this insane thread, look like a simple put-down.
Misunderstanding all around. I am happy for moderation and respect all of you. Including Subjectivity and Mundus and everyone. Metta!!!!
Now if you will please excuse me I will go to my room and suckle on an itchy old hockey sock.
Well, at the risk of seeming a bit confrontational myself, I would simply like to ask those who think they can do better on their own how successful they've been "doing it on their own" for the last umpteen trillion countless lifetimes they've lived? Of course, the response will most likely be that they don't believe in "reincarnation" (whatever that is), but that is what the Buddha taught. If indeed it is true that bodhisattvas return to this crappy life over and over again just out of their boundless love for sentient beings and the wish to liberate every one of them, might it not be worth it to check it out and see for yourself?
Or ask yourself this: how successful are alcoholics (or other addicts) at "doing it on their own?"
Palzang
I have not met anyone who seems like they've had this kind of success, whether they have taken refuge or not.
You seem to be higher up the food chain though, and perhaps this off topic from the main post but have you met anyone with this kind of success? I have been wondering if there is anyone alive that has had this kind of success. I've also been wondering if one without that kind of success could possible judge this, or must simply have faith.
"If you look at a mountain and say, 'There is a mountain,' you have created a mountain. Likewise, if you look at a situation and say, 'This is a problem,' you have created a problem. Guard your thoughts with great care, lest you create chaos where there is only peace."
The Buddha clearly thought that rebirth motivated people to behave better, but it's not clear to me that it plays a part in the end of duhkha.
My teacher is now twittering, and here's one of today's tweets:
"When we die all we can take is the habit of our mindstream/ consciousness. These will be reborn as characteristics and influence nxt life."
But I guess if you don't believe in rebirth, then it really doesn't matter, does it?
As for heroin addicts in Vietnam, your memory of it is quite different than mine. Heroin addiction was a horrendous problem with many of them just committing suicide or ending up in prison. So yeah, I guess they did take care of the problem themselves. Good solutions, eh?
Interestingly, the only treatment program that had any success treating Vietnam vets was run by a Buddhist monk in Thailand.
After running my mouth, I decided to look up the facts about heroin addiction in Vietnam. It's not a very clear picture. Reports of many thousands of addicts returning to the US were probably overblown because while many soldiers there tried it, not that many actually got to the point where they were addicted (i.e. they developed tolerance and a physical need for the drug). So it's not too clear how many people we're talking about. While some did indeed come back and not continue using, it is only a guess how many of those could truly be said to have been addicted. So I don't see it as much of an argument one way or the other. Whatever it was, it was a special case not really related to typical addiction.
My point is that most alcoholics and drug users require the intervention of someone else (AA, NA, drug counseling, whatever) to break the addictive cycle. The rest of us are basically the same because you could say that we're all addicted to samsara, i.e. to desire. So why not take advantage of someone who has already walked the way and crossed over to the other shore, so to speak? Better to stumble along on your own? That's sort of like walking across a room full of furniture and other obstacles. Is it easier with the light off or the light on?
The plain truth (whether or not you believe it) is that we've all been cycling endlessly in samsara since time out of mind, and so far nothing we've come up with on our own has gotten us out of it. That's why we need a teacher. If you don't feel you're ready for a teacher, that may be true. It's your call. But I think at some point you will if you really want to go all the way.
That "crap" deemed "absolutely unacceptable" is light hearted humor between the op and myself. We happen to be friends.
Then it would be appropriate to indicate that in your post either as an aside or an emoticon. We're not psychic and you're made a scant 18 posts so far. Hardly enough of a record for us (or casual visitors) to understand your tone or existing relationships.
You both misunderstood and ASSumed without taking a moment to reflect. Again, lighten up.
There was a misunderstanding, clearly. A good response is not to tell me how you expect me to run the site. I reflected, and then acted appropriately given the context.
The plain truth (whether or not you believe it) is that we've all been cycling endlessly in samsara since time out of mind, and so far nothing we've come up with on our own has gotten us out of it. That's why we need a teacher.
I'm still quite interested in knowing how you have firsthand knowledge of our past lives. :eek2: Or if it's perhaps possible that you've been following only the greatest Buddhist teachers for "the last umpteen trillion countless lifetimes" that you've been in Samsara and are still stuck here too?
Again, teachers come in all forms. The kind of teachers you're refering to have to be considered just as carefully as any other source of information ("teacher"), regardless of how wise they seem (or perhaps more-so because of this), lest you end up drinking the Kool-Aid.
Ok. I think the heat generated by this thread is due to one key phrase in the opening post. "If you consider yourself a....."
This points directly at our..my self view. When I consider myself ..... any questioning of that identity is a questioning of ME. Otherwise no heat would be generated. That is the lesson I'm taking from this, not about anyone else, but about our nature.
Give me your address so that when I get reborn as a worm forced to circumnavigate Mt Sumeru 100 million times I can stop by on vacation and crawl my apology out on your door, using my own slime as ink.
Give me your address so that when I get reborn as a worm forced to circumnavigate Mt Sumeru 100 million times I can stop by on vacation and crawl my apology out on your door, using my own slime as ink.
My point is that most alcoholics and drug users require the intervention of someone else (AA, NA, drug counseling, whatever) to break the addictive cycle.
People who deal with their addictions themselves don't make it into any addiction data base. "Most" means what? 51%? 91%? I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows.
I've known people who dealt with their addictions without help, and quite successfully. I've known people who couldn't have done it without help. If you're seriously going to try to use this as an argument for the necessity of having a teacher, it's going to backfire. Anyone can point to those people who dealt with addiction themselves and say "See? Teachers aren't necessary."
There may be good arguments for the necessity of having a teacher. All I'm pointing out is that you're not making them.
Give me your address so that when I get reborn as a worm forced to circumnavigate Mt Sumeru 100 million times I can stop by on vacation and crawl my apology out on your door, using my own slime as ink.
I believe fivebells has won this thread. And possibly the Internet.
Give me your address so that when I get reborn as a worm forced to circumnavigate Mt Sumeru 100 million times I can stop by on vacation and crawl my apology out on your door, using my own slime as ink.
I dont care whether your right on your point or not. But as an artist, I bow down to you.
The plain truth (whether or not you believe it) is that we've all been cycling endlessly in samsara since time out of mind, and so far nothing we've come up with on our own has gotten us out of it. That's why we need a teacher. If you don't feel you're ready for a teacher, that may be true. It's your call. But I think at some point you will if you really want to go all the way.
The plain truth (whether or not you believe it) is that the earth is just a billiard ball being knocked around by giant green space people.
See, it works for me, too.
Who says those who travel alone don't have teachers? My teachers have been some of the greatest in history. First and foremost, the Buddha has guided my practice with his own words, dutifully recorded by his disciples and passed down through the ages directly to me. Lao Tzu also gave his words to me, and many of his students helped me understand them. Bodhidharma, who brought Chan Buddhism to the Shaolin Temple in China, taught me how to think "outside the box" and showed me the true spirit of Zen. Kwan Yin once appeared to me in a dream and filled my spirit with outpouring compassion.
Many more of the greatest contemporary teachers in the world have given me wonderful lessons. Thich Nhat Hahn transformed the complex to the simple, and taught me true compassion. The Dalai Lama has shown me warmth and dignity, and inspired me with his gentle perseverance. Many other great philosophers, writers, artists, poets, and religious figures have been my teachers, as well. Some have been Buddhists, some have not.
Some of my teachers have been strangers, some have been friends. Some of the best have even been enemies, exposing my weaknesses and faults so I may understand them. I have learned from water, from fire, from earth and from air. The Earth has been my teacher, along with the moon, the sun, and the stars. I have learned from the tiniest of creatures, and the mightiest of beasts.
I have learned from teaching others what I know. I have learned from failures as well as successes. I have learned from thinking, and from learning not to think.
I think we often get some wrong ideas about people needing a teacher, because we base our ideas upon people being more extroverted in their ways. However, some people are quite introverted, or even what some people call loners. "Different folks, different strokes." ; ^ )
Very often these same people can do very well without a teacher, because they march to a different drummer. I am not saying that every one of them is friendless. A spiritual friend can be very helpful, indeed, like thinking out loud.
Yet, we may not notice these sometime extraordinary people, who may be very advanced in their understanding, because maybe they are off on some little farm somewhere, pretty much all by themselves most of the time, or even quite content to stay at home in their little room and either think or meditate.
Once in a while you may run into one of these people, if you are blessed by circumstance, and it can be life changing.
I know one such person, and he doesn’t enjoy crowds.
Also:
It doesn’t matter if we live one life or 5 trillion lives; the message is the same. “Look and see, right now.” If you wait 5 trillion lives to do that, you will still finally need to do it.
Arietta. What Palzang says is truth, may or may not be believed, but to suggest it is just another freakazoid belief, on a Buddhist site, is rich. Being bound in an endless the cycle of Samsara is a universal Buddhist basic, In all three major streams. It may be interpreted in different ways.
I have no memory of past lives and therefore remain functionally agnostic on the matter. But I am open. In the mean time the cycle of dependent origination is something I can attest to moment to moment, year to year.
It is my honest view that taking refuge and practicing in Sangha is essential. But if someone else dosent thats that. Thats that.
I just wanted to say something here, which I said to my daughter when she was a teenager.
“Take everyone, who comes into your life, like they are a teacher. Listen closely to them and hear what they have to tell you, but not just with their words, also who they are. Every single one of them is a message from home, telling you how to get back there. (AKA to being Awake like the Buddha.)
If you consider yourself a serious practitioner, take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Enter the Sangha and learn the discipline of practice from a teacher. If you are interested in the Theravadin Lay Sangha cultivate a friendship with, and support the Ordained Sangha, honor and respect them, learn to prostrate.
If you just "practice" on your own and read books you will end up with deluded new age mush and think you are Enlightened when you have any kind of opening.
I agree with the importance of teachers. But getting one is not an option for everybody. So practicing on your own might be the only option for the time being (as in my case).
Very well said. I really enjoyed it very much. What you said is SO obvious.
Like Arietta says, let us not forget our many teachers/friends across the centuries coming down to us through books. And the Mother (nature) is always whispering in our ear about what is profound. It is almost like everything is screaming the truth.
Arietta. What Palzang says is truth, may or may not be believed, but to suggest it is just another freakazoid belief, on a Buddhist site, is rich. Being bound in an endless the cycle of Samsara is a universal Buddhist basic, In all three major streams. It may be interpreted in different ways.
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." ~ Buddha
^ I don't think the point of what Arietta said was even to suggest that it was "just another freakazoid belief." I think it was just meant to show that saying something is so doesn't mean it is so. She's suggested she holds a similar agnostic view on the subject in other Threads, I think?
^ I don't think the point of what Arietta said was even to suggest that it was "just another freakazoid belief." I think it was just meant to show that saying something is so doesn't mean it is so. She's suggested she holds a similar agnostic view on the subject in other Threads, I think?
Some of just cannot find/get to a teacher. Because of factors like- Iillness travel the plain simple fact, that you were warned off the only Buddhist temple in your town, by other Buddhists. (Very confusing when your trying to find somewhere to go, you'd be going with the impression that it is wrong to be there right from the start.)
I think the problem lies with where you live. In the uk, there are only certain cities that provide Buddhist groups/sanghas. I do not know any other Buddhists (face to face) apart from the other members here on the forum.
I have also found that groups i have enquired about joining in other towns weren't very accepting of someone with walking difficulties (i was told i had to do 10 minutes of walking meditation, and seeing as i cant even walk up the street without pain, it wasn't met well).
So, what im saying is there are many factors why some of us have to go it alone. To say we are not doing it to a proper standard is extremely unfair and cruel.
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." ~ Buddha
I always go back to the sutras when I'm talking to an authoritarian, because that's what your mind is wired to listen to.
I just found a certain irony in invoking the authority of Sutra. Five Bells, you surprise me. I started this thread with a provocative, but not outrageous statement, and people went up the wall. Authoritarian? Obey me five bells!!
The cultural make-up of this online community, is clearly such that the statement in the opening thread was very upsetting for a lot of people. Being upset because of Non-access to resources is one thing. And I apologize to those who feel like someone is saying your second class. You arent, and you certainly dont need this character to say so. But the rest of this, sometimes visceral, negative reaction? Thats yours. Its in your pocket. I'm going to paint a picture.. :wavey:
See, that's just the kind of reply I find immensely disgusting and very insensitive. It's almost as if you find happiness in the fact some people have to go it alone. Like Christians who condemn fellow human beings to hell whilst frothing at the mouth.
This is Buddhism?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2009
I can see why you would find it offensive.
In the same way others found the comment 'put a sock in it' from Dogs Bollocks, to Richard, offensive.
Yet again, it seems to be a question of perception and evaluation.....
A quick skim round the forum would help you see that FiveBells and Palzang are long-time mebers, well acquainted and old discursive partners.
And Fivebells had plenty of time to take offence and reply.
Trust me.
He's more than capable of doing this for himself....:D
I fully understand your stance on this, and take nothing away from your personal affront...
But I think we all need to take a look at our own perception - and how others might perceive us - in light of this having happened on this thread, twice now.
I also think we need to give people the benefit of the doubt - or at least, give opportunity to the 'offended' to make complaint, if one is deemed necessary.
We seem to take offence quite speedily, and maybe give offence quite lightly.
I don't know any immediate and sweeping solution to this dilemma, because every case has to be evaluated on it's singular circumstances. In fact, i don't think there is any one single answer to this situation - if indeed, an answer is even warranted.....
The cultural make-up of this online community, is clearly such that the statement in the opening thread was very upsetting for a lot of people. Being upset because of Non-access to resources is one thing. And I apologize to those who feel like someone is saying your second class.
Its not you Richard, other people have said to me previously that i MUST have a teacher, or i cant do this. It is very negative and must put people off. Ive spent many a night weeping because i apparantly will never be able to do it on my own.
Personally, i think i can. Its other people that say i cant.
I know you don't mean offence, you dont know everyones circumstances. Apology accepted.
Comments
Or ask yourself this: how successful are alcoholics (or other addicts) at "doing it on their own?"
Palzang
The four or five contacts I've had with a teacher were crucial, though. (Despite being from a Tibetan lineage, he also doesn't accept the role of literal reincarnation in Buddhist cosmology, by the way. It's not essential to the practice at all. In fact, it gets in the way at a certain point.)
I'm only aware of having lived this particular lifetime, so...
No one is saying that they're too good for a teacher, or can do it all on their own. But some of us can't, at least right now, join a Sangha. Some of us have, and haven't found a proper teacher yet (not all teachers are made equal, and quite a few only delude their students further). We were arguing that statements like "you will inevitably fall down the rabbit hole, develop opinions based on new-age crap and think you're Enlightened, and cannot progress or understand true Buddha Dhamma without a teacher" are extreme and unfair.
I personally try to study the suttas carefully. I read from numerous sources, and never blindly accept "Buddha Dhamma hearsay." I'm careful not to get stuck in one understanding, and am always open to learning more. Those here, who are more experienced than me, books, the suttas, retreat/Dhamma talk recordings...these are my "teachers" right now. I practise meditation daily.
I try to be very self-disciplined. You have to be, even if your teacher is a "proper" one. In the end, you DO have to do it on your own. The real work is up to you. A teacher can only help point you in the proper direction faster. They can also completely mislead you.
I hope someday I'll be able to experience a brick-n-mortar Sangha. But I think everyone here has a lot to teach each other, including those "silly, simple layfolk who don't have a Dhamma name."
To a certain extent, we all have a strong opinion or another on what makes a Buddhist, and what doesn't..... but opinion is all it is...The only truly wrong opinion, is one that is shuttered to being altered.
And yes....
Constructive dialogue and animated debate, is one thing.
Name-calling and admonishments such as that from DB, are unacceptable.
Had my two 'bosses' not made mention, I would certainly have done. And I'm afraid I'm actually less lenient than they are......:mad:
DB was just being a smart-...you-know-what with a friend.
Let me explain something to you:
All we 'stormtroopers' have to go on, is black and white words on a page.
But we've had name calling, trolling, flaming stalking and liberally strewn insults here too many times - recently, too - to ignore potential conflict.
You have to bear in mind that we cannot tell who are friends and who are not. As the matter stands, you say you and the OP are friends.
I'm delighted.
But we have standards here, and courtesy, respect and dignity are required.
You want to tell someone they're full of it, or to put a sock in it or anything else for that matter (in that vein) then feel free to do so. Somewhere else.
But please - don't tell us to lighten up when it's our job to ensure that everybody - regardless of who they are - receives courtesy, respect and the dignified right to voice their thoughts without harassment, rudeness, or ridicule.
We don't delete threads because there are legitimate, valid, cogent and educational comments by others that warrant reading and consideration.
We do, however, delete posts we consider inappropriate, out-of-line and discourteous, from time to time....
If you disagree with our requirements, then you can always let rip elsewhere.
BACK TO TOPIC.
Not impressed here with authoritarian bullying.....
Neither am I impressed with the level of misunderstanding at the moderator level....
Don't appreciate unjust accusation and insinuation....
Why create conflict where there is none?
Ok. I think the heat generated by this thread is due to one key phrase in the opening post. "If you consider yourself a....."
This points directly at our..my self view. When I consider myself ..... any questioning of that identity is a questioning of ME. Otherwise no heat would be generated. That is the lesson I'm taking from this, not about anyone else, but about our nature.
For the record I am and have always been a lousy student and sometimes wanker. It is only because I have had the good fortune to be with people much wiser than me for so long, that some authenticity has been absorbed by simple osmosis.
Do you even bother to read the preceding threads containing black and white words? How could you think this op would be so mortally offended by something he seemed to expect. Don't push so hard. And who are you serving inviting anyone to leave?
The Buddha clearly thought that rebirth motivated people to behave better, but it's not clear to me that it plays a part in the end of duhkha.
Of the two substance abusers I've known well, one is doing extremely well on his own and the other is getting help and struggling. In fact, I'd say he's in serious trouble right now. Of course, any statistician will point out that my sample is small and non-random. :-)
For those of us old enough to remember the Vietnamese War, there was a lot of concern about large numbers of addicted soldiers returning when the war ended. The fact that many soldiers in Vietnam were heroin addicts was well attested, but the problem never materialized. Most of the addictions ended during the plane ride back to the states.
I'm not advocating that people with substance abuse problems try to go it alone. I'm just pointing out that they make a poor argument in a debate about the role of teachers in Buddhism.
On the topic of irritating posters, a frequent poster here often and helpfully points out that that which irritates us can be helpful in our practice. I thought this was one of the better series of posts that Richard has made. Whether I found them irritating or not is a matter I will discuss with the meditation cushion. :-)
Misunderstanding all around. I am happy for moderation and respect all of you. Including Subjectivity and Mundus and everyone. Metta!!!!
Now if you will please excuse me I will go to my room and suckle on an itchy old hockey sock.
I have not met anyone who seems like they've had this kind of success, whether they have taken refuge or not.
You seem to be higher up the food chain though, and perhaps this off topic from the main post but have you met anyone with this kind of success? I have been wondering if there is anyone alive that has had this kind of success. I've also been wondering if one without that kind of success could possible judge this, or must simply have faith.
~ Arietta
That's what you think! hehehehehe
Palzang
My teacher is now twittering, and here's one of today's tweets:
"When we die all we can take is the habit of our mindstream/ consciousness. These will be reborn as characteristics and influence nxt life."
But I guess if you don't believe in rebirth, then it really doesn't matter, does it?
As for heroin addicts in Vietnam, your memory of it is quite different than mine. Heroin addiction was a horrendous problem with many of them just committing suicide or ending up in prison. So yeah, I guess they did take care of the problem themselves. Good solutions, eh?
Interestingly, the only treatment program that had any success treating Vietnam vets was run by a Buddhist monk in Thailand.
Palzang
My point is that most alcoholics and drug users require the intervention of someone else (AA, NA, drug counseling, whatever) to break the addictive cycle. The rest of us are basically the same because you could say that we're all addicted to samsara, i.e. to desire. So why not take advantage of someone who has already walked the way and crossed over to the other shore, so to speak? Better to stumble along on your own? That's sort of like walking across a room full of furniture and other obstacles. Is it easier with the light off or the light on?
The plain truth (whether or not you believe it) is that we've all been cycling endlessly in samsara since time out of mind, and so far nothing we've come up with on our own has gotten us out of it. That's why we need a teacher. If you don't feel you're ready for a teacher, that may be true. It's your call. But I think at some point you will if you really want to go all the way.
Palzang
I'm still quite interested in knowing how you have firsthand knowledge of our past lives. :eek2: Or if it's perhaps possible that you've been following only the greatest Buddhist teachers for "the last umpteen trillion countless lifetimes" that you've been in Samsara and are still stuck here too?
Again, teachers come in all forms. The kind of teachers you're refering to have to be considered just as carefully as any other source of information ("teacher"), regardless of how wise they seem (or perhaps more-so because of this), lest you end up drinking the Kool-Aid.
An admirable assumption of responsibility.
Give me your address so that when I get reborn as a worm forced to circumnavigate Mt Sumeru 100 million times I can stop by on vacation and crawl my apology out on your door, using my own slime as ink.
Your teacher is Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo?
Props to you for looking it up and correcting my faulty memory.
People who deal with their addictions themselves don't make it into any addiction data base. "Most" means what? 51%? 91%? I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows.
I've known people who dealt with their addictions without help, and quite successfully. I've known people who couldn't have done it without help. If you're seriously going to try to use this as an argument for the necessity of having a teacher, it's going to backfire. Anyone can point to those people who dealt with addiction themselves and say "See? Teachers aren't necessary."
There may be good arguments for the necessity of having a teacher. All I'm pointing out is that you're not making them.
I believe fivebells has won this thread. And possibly the Internet.
See, it works for me, too.
Who says those who travel alone don't have teachers? My teachers have been some of the greatest in history. First and foremost, the Buddha has guided my practice with his own words, dutifully recorded by his disciples and passed down through the ages directly to me. Lao Tzu also gave his words to me, and many of his students helped me understand them. Bodhidharma, who brought Chan Buddhism to the Shaolin Temple in China, taught me how to think "outside the box" and showed me the true spirit of Zen. Kwan Yin once appeared to me in a dream and filled my spirit with outpouring compassion.
Many more of the greatest contemporary teachers in the world have given me wonderful lessons. Thich Nhat Hahn transformed the complex to the simple, and taught me true compassion. The Dalai Lama has shown me warmth and dignity, and inspired me with his gentle perseverance. Many other great philosophers, writers, artists, poets, and religious figures have been my teachers, as well. Some have been Buddhists, some have not.
Some of my teachers have been strangers, some have been friends. Some of the best have even been enemies, exposing my weaknesses and faults so I may understand them. I have learned from water, from fire, from earth and from air. The Earth has been my teacher, along with the moon, the sun, and the stars. I have learned from the tiniest of creatures, and the mightiest of beasts.
I have learned from teaching others what I know. I have learned from failures as well as successes. I have learned from thinking, and from learning not to think.
My teacher is life, and an able teacher it is.
Is your teacher more qualified than mine?
Ah, but Arietta... does your teacher Tweet? (j/k, j/k)
I think we often get some wrong ideas about people needing a teacher, because we base our ideas upon people being more extroverted in their ways. However, some people are quite introverted, or even what some people call loners. "Different folks, different strokes." ; ^ )
Very often these same people can do very well without a teacher, because they march to a different drummer. I am not saying that every one of them is friendless. A spiritual friend can be very helpful, indeed, like thinking out loud.
Yet, we may not notice these sometime extraordinary people, who may be very advanced in their understanding, because maybe they are off on some little farm somewhere, pretty much all by themselves most of the time, or even quite content to stay at home in their little room and either think or meditate.
Once in a while you may run into one of these people, if you are blessed by circumstance, and it can be life changing.
I know one such person, and he doesn’t enjoy crowds.
Also:
It doesn’t matter if we live one life or 5 trillion lives; the message is the same. “Look and see, right now.” If you wait 5 trillion lives to do that, you will still finally need to do it.
S9
I have no memory of past lives and therefore remain functionally agnostic on the matter. But I am open. In the mean time the cycle of dependent origination is something I can attest to moment to moment, year to year.
It is my honest view that taking refuge and practicing in Sangha is essential. But if someone else dosent thats that. Thats that.
“Take everyone, who comes into your life, like they are a teacher. Listen closely to them and hear what they have to tell you, but not just with their words, also who they are. Every single one of them is a message from home, telling you how to get back there. (AKA to being Awake like the Buddha.)
S9
I agree with the importance of teachers. But getting one is not an option for everybody. So practicing on your own might be the only option for the time being (as in my case).
Very well said. I really enjoyed it very much. What you said is SO obvious.
Like Arietta says, let us not forget our many teachers/friends across the centuries coming down to us through books. And the Mother (nature) is always whispering in our ear about what is profound. It is almost like everything is screaming the truth.
S9
Iillness
travel
the plain simple fact, that you were warned off the only Buddhist temple in your town, by other Buddhists.
(Very confusing when your trying to find somewhere to go, you'd be going with the impression that it is wrong to be there right from the start.)
I think the problem lies with where you live. In the uk, there are only certain cities that provide Buddhist groups/sanghas.
I do not know any other Buddhists (face to face) apart from the other members here on the forum.
I have also found that groups i have enquired about joining in other towns weren't very accepting of someone with walking difficulties (i was told i had to do 10 minutes of walking meditation, and seeing as i cant even walk up the street without pain, it wasn't met well).
So, what im saying is there are many factors why some of us have to go it alone. To say we are not doing it to a proper standard is extremely unfair and cruel.
I personally think i've done fine by myself
This is Buddhism?
In the same way others found the comment 'put a sock in it' from Dogs Bollocks, to Richard, offensive.
Yet again, it seems to be a question of perception and evaluation.....
A quick skim round the forum would help you see that FiveBells and Palzang are long-time mebers, well acquainted and old discursive partners.
And Fivebells had plenty of time to take offence and reply.
Trust me.
He's more than capable of doing this for himself....:D
I fully understand your stance on this, and take nothing away from your personal affront...
But I think we all need to take a look at our own perception - and how others might perceive us - in light of this having happened on this thread, twice now.
I also think we need to give people the benefit of the doubt - or at least, give opportunity to the 'offended' to make complaint, if one is deemed necessary.
We seem to take offence quite speedily, and maybe give offence quite lightly.
I don't know any immediate and sweeping solution to this dilemma, because every case has to be evaluated on it's singular circumstances. In fact, i don't think there is any one single answer to this situation - if indeed, an answer is even warranted.....
Comments from all?
Its not you Richard, other people have said to me previously that i MUST have a teacher, or i cant do this.
It is very negative and must put people off. Ive spent many a night weeping because i apparantly will never be able to do it on my own.
Personally, i think i can.
Its other people that say i cant.
I know you don't mean offence, you dont know everyones circumstances. Apology accepted.
Palzang