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Five percepts - Sexual misconduct

FenixFenix Veteran
edited November 2009 in Buddhism Basics
Is it sexual misconduct if you do it with your girlfriend?
«1

Comments

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2009
    Sexual misconduct includes things like adultery, rape and sexual activity with those who're protected under law or have taken a vow of celibacy, not sex in general. Therefore, having sex with a boyfriend/girlfriend isn't considered sexual misconduct as long as it's consensual and you''re both of the legal age of consent.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    Fenix wrote: »
    Is it sexual misconduct if you do it with your girlfriend?
    not as long as she wants to do it with you.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Jason wrote: »
    Sexual misconduct includes things like adultery, rape and sexual activity with those who're protected under law or have taken a vow of celibacy, not sex in general. Therefore, having sex with a boyfriend/girlfriend isn't considered sexual misconduct as long as it's consensual and you're both of the legal age of consent.

    The Buddha advised:
    "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

    "And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.

    "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed/lust is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

    "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed/non-lust is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.

    The Discourse on Right View
    So sexual misconduct is sexual conduct that is primarily motivated by lust rather than by well defined mutual goals & commitment.

    Kind regards

    DDhatu

    :)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Fenix wrote: »
    Is it sexual misconduct if you do it with your girlfriend?


    Doesn't it rather depend what "it" is?
  • FenixFenix Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Simonthepilgrim wrote: »


    Doesn't it rather depend what "it" is?

    sex, its sex...
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Fenix wrote: »
    sex, its sex...


    Something of a catch-all term. No conclusion as to any behaviour can be arrived at on the basis of generalities, nor without context - as the other answers demonstrate. Sex is neither 'good' nor 'bad'; it is always context-dependent.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Simonthepilgrim wrote: »
    Sex is neither 'good' nor 'bad'
    I take it you've never had sex. ;-)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    I take it you've never had sex. ;-)


    3 wives, 7 children and a fair few lovers. I was not commenting oin technique as I don't think that is covered by the Precepts ;-)
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Now that I've eliminated the temptation to be a smart ass by succumbing to it, I'll give a more serious answer.

    Sexual intercourse is often not planned very far in advance, so there isn't a lot of time to compute moral niceties. A couple of rules of thumb are:
    1) If you're following the other precepts (don't lie, don't take what isn't given), then it's probably not sexual misconduct.
    2) If it's something that your partner would object to if they knew about it, then it probably is sexual misconduct. Actually, the fact that your partner doesn't know about it is a clue.

    And the rule of thumb for all situations: Pay attention.
  • shadowleavershadowleaver Veteran
    edited November 2009
    I think that by far the most important consideration here is birth control. If the girlfriend gets pregnant, very, very difficult questions shall arise.
  • sambodhisambodhi
    edited November 2009
    21st century dharma needs to promote the idea that oral sex is indeed sex!
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    sambodhi wrote: »
    21st century dharma needs to promote the idea that oral sex is indeed sex!
    why?
  • sambodhisambodhi
    edited November 2009
    Because oral sex is the new "hello" and adolescents seem to think that it is 100% safe.

    Oh, and I'm not some disgruntled baby boomer - I'm 21. ;)
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited November 2009
    sambodhi wrote: »
    Because oral sex is the new "hello"
    If only.
  • TheFoundTheFound
    edited November 2009
    Hahahaha "if only" HAHAHA tell me about it....lol
    okay guys...take a step back okay...
    lol....
    sexual misconduct is obvious,
    If you rape, abuse, OR are perverted according to YOU/the 8 fold path...

    my general rule is not something I follow...
    but it's this..
    Do only what your mother wouldn't faint from hearing about...

    if ur mother hears about u having sex, that's fine right? she expects that! you are whatever sex you are, man or woman,sex is part of that..
    MAYBE even oral sex..she probably doesn't want to hear it but...whatever..

    BUT the other stuff , let's say orgies...(lol ....) rape, incest, bestiality , voyeurism, (lol I should just go to a porn site and write down their list lol)

    but of course, also we want to stay away from addiction and attachment, geez it's easy to get addicted to ...whatever :cheer:

    a story: I had a girlfriend in highschool she dumped me because apparently sexual activities were the only thing i cared about...(probably was true)
    that was probably some kind of misconduct on my part, because of desire, attachment, addiction.. ETC ETC

    she was a nice girl too, but her being a girl and well shaped, was all i cared about.....

    kinda... :crazy:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2009
    Lincoln wrote:
    If only.

    :lol::lol::lol:
  • TheFoundTheFound
    edited November 2009
    okay, how about this

    think of it as a science...

    be a real scientist do legitimate tests (FINE)

    but not a mad scientist, you understand?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    sambodhi wrote: »
    Because oral sex is the new "hello" and adolescents seem to think that it is 100% safe.

    Oh, and I'm not some disgruntled baby boomer - I'm 21. ;)
    but how does that relate to "21st century dharma"?
  • sambodhisambodhi
    edited November 2009
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    but how does that relate to "21st century dharma"?
    That's a joke, right? Go find me a sutra where the Buddha talks about analingus, strawberry milkshakes and space docking. And yes, the last two are euphemisms for various sexual acts. Google at your own risk. ;)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2009
    It little matters what the sex is, whether it be strawberry milkshakes, space docking or anything else for that matter.

    Have you seen every position in the Kama Sutra? Some of them were pretty outrageous in their time....

    The third precept encourages us to undertake the training to abstain from sexual misconduct.

    The bottom line is that any type of sex which is degrading or insulting to an unwilling or reluctant partner, is sexual misconduct.

    Naming it is superfluous.
    It's the effect it has, that is either skilful or otherwise.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    sambodhi wrote: »
    That's a joke, right? Go find me a sutra where the Buddha talks about analingus, strawberry milkshakes and space docking. And yes, the last two are euphemisms for various sexual acts. Google at your own risk. ;)
    i know what they are (docking is hilarious) and no, its not a joke.
    there are already discussions and prohibitions on oral and anal sex in the scriptures, so what I am curious about is why you feel there should be a new interpretation of certain sex acts?
    if you ask me the prohibitions on oral and anal sex are no longer relevant for us anyways.
  • msmedusamsmedusa
    edited November 2009
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    there are already discussions and prohibitions on oral and anal sex in the scriptures, .

    :( oh I see ..that my plans for Saturday night ruined then.
  • Tokyo_RoseTokyo_Rose
    edited November 2009
    I can't believe i just googled 'space docking'
    Thank you very much :(
    LOL
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    msmedusa wrote: »
    :( oh I see ..that my plans for Saturday night ruined then.
    i think you should go right ahead and enjoy your saturday night plans, as naughty as they may be.
  • sambodhisambodhi
    edited November 2009
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    i know what they are (docking is hilarious) and no, its not a joke.
    there are already discussions and prohibitions on oral and anal sex in the scriptures, so what I am curious about is why you feel there should be a new interpretation of certain sex acts?
    if you ask me the prohibitions on oral and anal sex are no longer relevant for us anyways.
    I didn't know oral and anal sex were mentioned in the texts. Thank you for informing me.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2009
    Specifically, Tibetan. But these do not necessarily come from the Buddha himself. They're just elaborations implemented by the Authorities in Tibetan Buddhism.

    I can think of nothing in Theravada suttas discussing such specifics.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    I'm pretty sure the proscription at least against anal sex goes back to the Pali scriptures. The vinaya precepts regarding genital stimulation are comically thorough. For instance, my understanding is that it's forbidden to walk through long grass while wearing no underpants, because some people were doing this as masturbation. And I'm pretty sure there's a pali-canon sutra where the Buddha disrobed a monk because the monk kept inviting other monks to fuck him in the ass. "Disrobed" in the bad sense, not the fun sense...
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    federica wrote: »
    Specifically, Tibetan. But these do not necessarily come from the Buddha himself. They're just elaborations implemented by the Authorities in Tibetan Buddhism.

    I can think of nothing in Theravada suttas discussing such specifics.
    these prohibitions are in the scriptures of all traditions.
    there are many stories about appropriate and inappropriate sexual conduct and orifices in the pali and sarvastivadin vinaya.
    again, i think they are out of date. the vinaya is for monks and nuns and they should have these prohibitions but I dont think they are any longer relevant for lay people in loving relationships.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the proscription at least against anal sex goes back to the Pali scriptures. The vinaya precepts regarding genital stimulation are comically thorough. For instance, my understanding is that it's forbidden to walk through long grass while wearing no underpants, because some people were doing this as masturbation. And I'm pretty sure there's a pali-canon sutra where the Buddha disrobed a monk because the monk kept inviting other monks to fuck him in the ass. "Disrobed" in the bad sense, not the fun sense...

    Actually, that's not true. There is a prohibition against sex concerning “inappropriate orifices” (i.e. anal and oral) that can be found in Vasubandhu’s Abhidharmakosabhasyam and a few other Sarvastivadin texts, but there is no such prohibition found in any Theravadin source.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2009
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    these prohibitions are in the scriptures of all traditions.
    there are many stories about appropriate and inappropriate sexual conduct and orifices in the pali and sarvastivadin vinaya.

    Again, that's not true. While there is a prohibition against sex concerning “inappropriate orifices” (i.e. anal and oral) that can be found in Vasubandhu’s Abhidharmakosabhasyam and a few other Sarvastivadin texts, there's no such prohibition found in any Theravadin source.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    Jason wrote: »
    Again, that's not true. While there is a prohibition against sex concerning “inappropriate orifices” (i.e. anal and oral) that can be found in Vasubandhu’s Abhidharmakosabhasyam and a few other Sarvastivadin texts, there's no such prohibition found in any Theravadin source.

    well, if thats the case then thats great.
    that gives homophobes and sexual intimacy-phobes even less of a leg to stand on when they try to argue that Buddhism prohibits such relationships.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Jason wrote: »
    Actually, that's not true. There is a prohibition against sex concerning “inappropriate orifices” (i.e. anal and oral) that can be found in Vasubandhu’s Abhidharmakosabhasyam and a few other Sarvastivadin texts, but there is no such prohibition found in any Theravadin source.
    Huh, I can't find the sutra I read on this, but I'm surprised it's not in the vinaya. I was basing that claim on statements like this:
    The Vinaya lists those sexual activities with men, women, pandaka and ubhatobyanjanaka that entail spiritual defeat and a monk's automatic expulsion from the order. These proscribed sexual activities are:
    1. Anal, vaginal or oral intercourse with a female human, non-human (i.e. an immaterial being) or animal;
    2. Anal, vaginal or oral intercourse with an ubhatobyanjanaka human, non-human or animal;
    3. Anal or oral intercourse <sup>8</sup> with a pandaka human, non-human or animal; and
    4. Anal or oral intercourse with a male human, non-human or animal.

    I guess the references here would be a good place to start looking, if one cared enough. Anyway, they're funny.
    Together with bestiality (see "The Case of the Female Monkey," Vinaya, vol. 1, p. 27), necrophilia (see "The Two Cases of Open Sores [in Dead Bodies]," Vinaya, Vol. 1, pp. 221-222) and sex with inanimate objects (see "The Case of the Moulded Image," Vinaya, Vol. 1, p. 222 and "The Case of the Wooden Doll," Vinaya, Vol. 1, p. 222), the Vinaya also proscribes a range of homoerotic or strictly speaking autoerotic forms of sexual activity such as auto-fellatio (see "The Case of the Nimble-backed Monk," Vinaya, Vol. 1, p. 221) and auto-sodomy (see "The Case of the Monk with a Long Penis," Vinaya, Vol. 1, p. 221).
  • MaxHMaxH
    edited November 2009
    Are we referring to conventional space docking or the version that is also referred to as the Alaskan Pipeline?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    Max H wrote: »
    Are we referring to conventional space docking or the version that is also referred to as the Alaskan Pipeline?

    i dont think i am familiar with this variation on the practice known as space docking.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    I don't know either of those terms. Could you point me at some diagrams? Preferably animated?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    I don't know either of those terms. Could you point me at some diagrams? Preferably animated?

    this would be the common reaction:

    :eek:
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    Huh, I can't find the sutra I read on this, but I'm surprised it's not in the vinaya. I was basing that claim on statements like this:
    The Vinaya lists those sexual activities with men, women, pandaka and ubhatobyanjanaka that entail spiritual defeat and a monk's automatic expulsion from the order. These proscribed sexual activities are:
    1. Anal, vaginal or oral intercourse with a female human, non-human (i.e. an immaterial being) or animal;
    2. Anal, vaginal or oral intercourse with an ubhatobyanjanaka human, non-human or animal;
    3. Anal or oral intercourse <sup>8</sup> with a pandaka human, non-human or animal; and
    4. Anal or oral intercourse with a male human, non-human or animal.

    Of course monastics who've taken a vow of celibacy commit a major offense if they have sex of any kind, including anal and oral, but there's no prohibition against sex concerning "inappropriate orifices" such as can be found in Vasubandhu’s Abhidharmakosabhasyam, which applies to monastics and lay-followers alike.
  • sambodhisambodhi
    edited November 2009
    Max H wrote: »
    Are we referring to conventional space docking or the version that is also referred to as the Alaskan Pipeline?
    Uh......... No. Not quite. :p

    By the way, I only know of these terms because I took "Human Sexuality" - a requirement for my psychology degree.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Jason wrote: »
    Of course monastics who've taken a vow of celibacy commit a major offense if they have sex...

    OK, I was explicitly talking about the vinaya precepts.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited November 2009
    sambodhi wrote: »
    By the way, I only know of these terms because I took "Human Sexuality" - a requirement for my psychology degree.
    And did you learn in this class whether people actually do "Alaskan pipelines", or whether it's a figment of someone's imagination? It seems like an awful lot of trouble just to make a dildo.
  • MaxHMaxH
    edited November 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    And did you learn in this class whether people actually do "Alaskan pipelines", or whether it's a figment of someone's imagination? It seems like an awful lot of trouble just to make a dildo.

    What some view as an awful lot of trouble, others view as a creative labor of love.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Oh. My. GOD.
    ohnoesplz.gif
    Urbandictionary.
    faint-1.gifend.gif

    Sambodhiiii emot-argh.gif
    By the way, I only know of these terms because I took "Human Sexuality" - a requirement for my psychology degree.

    Yeah, yeah. ;)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    And did you learn in this class whether people actually do "Alaskan pipelines", or whether it's a figment of someone's imagination? It seems like an awful lot of trouble just to make a dildo.

    Any amount of trouble is worth it to sexually humilate your loved one. :)
  • Tokyo_RoseTokyo_Rose
    edited November 2009
    I don't believe this space docking and alaskan pipelines buisness.
    Its a joke isn't it? :rolleyes:

    Tell me its a joke . . . . ..
    . . . . . . . please
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    We haven't gotten to the part where they use hamsters, yet....:lol:
  • Tokyo_RoseTokyo_Rose
    edited November 2009
    NO NO NO NO !!!!
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Tokyo,

    Lock the doors lest Richard Gere stops by...
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited November 2009
    o0Mundus-Vult-Decipi0o wrote: »
    Tokyo,

    Lock the doors lest Richard Gere stops by...

    Did you guys know that Sylvester Stallone supposedly started that rumor?
    that just makes it weirder.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Max H wrote: »
    What some view as an awful lot of trouble, others view as a creative labor of love.
    That may be true, but it doesn't answer my question. :-)
    Tokyo_Rose wrote: »
    Tell me its a joke
    Or the product of adolescent imagination.

    I really don't know whether people actually do this, and I thought someone who took a Human Sexuality class might have seen survey results or a citation in a research journal, or something similar.
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited November 2009
    I googled space docking

    :eek:
    .
    My friend will laugh... a lot:(


    What happens with hamsters anyway?:lol::p
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