Pre-Determined fate Vs Free will.

caz

I tell you what this is an interesting mind bender.

Do we have free will ? Or is everything Pre-determined.

Its interesting to think that potentially every experience i have is past karma ripening so what reality of free will is there when everychoice i could make is potential ment to happen ?
Thats one line of thought so i ask you what is your opinion on this subject ?

fivebells

A sense of self is implicit in the concept of free will. It puts the chooser in a privileged position.

caz

fivebells wrote: »

A sense of self is implicit in the concept of free will. It puts the chooser in a privileged position.

Yes that it does but i wonder do we have free will there must be some sort as i choose to perform this action now ect. But then that gets me thinking i am only performing this action because my karma has ripend for me to perform this action so i really didnt choose to perform it i was just an instrument of karma, This makes the concept of self a little less important and ever more like a formation of parts rather then a Truly existant individual.

So what is the correct answer ?

Jason

We had a discussion about a similar topic a little over three years ago:

No control—the absence of choice in the present moment?

Although my positions and understanding of Buddhism have changed somewhat in that time (esp. away from the Abhidhamma), you might find it interesting. (Rereading it really makes me miss Bobby. He was a great debater.)

caz

Jason wrote: »

We had a discussion about a similar topic a little over three years ago:

No control—the absence of choice in the present moment?

Although my positions and understanding of Buddhism have changed somewhat in that time (esp. away from the Abhidhamma), you might find it interesting. (Rereading it really makes me miss Bobby. He was a great debater.)

Damn you see this is what happens, i dig up an old thread im told its been dead, i start a new thread its been done already. :hrm:

Jason

Ha! Feel free to start a new discussion anyway. It never hurts to get a new perspective.

caz

Jason wrote: »

Ha! Feel free to start a new discussion anyway. It never hurts to get a new perspective.

I was hopeing for some new impute to it i started this disscussion at the pub the other night and a few pints later we'd solved all the worlds problems and then we forgot them again LOL
Only joking mind, I did get somewhere with it i think possibley it could be a two sided coin, but all one in the same if you get what im trying to articulate ?

krahmer

Analysis of a pre-determined universe doesn't hold up. I say this despite the fact that I have had many experiences of 'deja vu'. The way it works for me is that I occasionally have a dream where an everyday event is happening. Several weeks to several years later, I will experience what happened in that dream. They have been so vivid at times that I will sit there laughing inside knowing what every single word spoken in the next 5-15 seconds will be and what will happen. Getting back to my point: I don't see any evidence of forces that would make people or animals or the weather do exact patterns over a range of time. If it was pre-determined, who determined it, why, when did it start, and will it end? Too many questions that seem pointless, really...

pegembara

For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed that karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. Furthermore, present actions need not be determined by past actions. In other words, there is free will, although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. The nature of this freedom is symbolized in an image used by the early Buddhists: flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted in almost any direction.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html

caz

krahmer wrote: »

Analysis of a pre-determined universe doesn't hold up. I say this despite the fact that I have had many experiences of 'deja vu'. The way it works for me is that I occasionally have a dream where an everyday event is happening. Several weeks to several years later, I will experience what happened in that dream. They have been so vivid at times that I will sit there laughing inside knowing what every single word spoken in the next 5-15 seconds will be and what will happen. Getting back to my point: I don't see any evidence of forces that would make people or animals or the weather do exact patterns over a range of time. If it was pre-determined, who determined it, why, when did it start, and will it end? Too many questions that seem pointless, really...

It doesnt really need an external deity to pre-determine things, the pre-determined destination of a falling rock is the floor.

fivebells

It's a false dichotomy. There doesn't have to be pre-determinism, just because there's no free will.

caz

fivebells wrote: »

It's a false dichotomy. There doesn't have to be pre-determinism, just because there's no free will.

So what is your opinion regarding such 5bells ?

fivebells

I wonder whether the question was popular in the Buddha's time. It surprises me that it's not listed as one of the imponderables.

caz

fivebells wrote: »

I wonder whether the question was popular in the Buddha's time. It surprises me that it's not listed as one of the imponderables.

Perhapes he had a difinitive answer perhpaes there is a middle way between the two or something rather more different ?

fivebells

There is definitely a middle way. It's the way most people live their lives. I don't think it's really relevant to Buddhist practice, though, except isasmuch as the notion of free will is incompatible with the notion of anatta.

caz

fivebells wrote: »

There is definitely a middle way. It's the way most people live their lives. I don't think it's really relevant to Buddhist practice, though, except isasmuch as the notion of free will is incompatible with the notion of anatta.

Hmm if everything is a result of previous karma ripening....

krahmer

It doesnt really need an external deity to pre-determine things, the pre-determined destination of a falling rock is the floor.

Nope, that's gravity, not pre-determination.

Jason

krahmer wrote: »

Nope, that's gravity, not pre-determination.

This reminds me of Democritus' atomism vs. Epicurus' atomism.

Jason

caz namyaw wrote: »

Hmm if everything is a result of previous karma ripening....

This is how the Jain doctrine of kamma is portrayed in the Pali Canon, i.e., the straight line theory of causality. The Buddha, on the other hand, took the position that our experience of the present is conditioned by both past and present actions, i.e., the non-linear theory of causality.

It seems to me that the difference between Nigantha Nataputta's doctrine of kamma and the Buddha's doctrine of kamma is not unlike the difference between Democritus' atomism and Epicurus' atomism.

caz

krahmer wrote: »

Nope, that's gravity, not pre-determination.

But it that action has a pre-determined effect doesnt it :eekblue:

Brigid

Jason wrote: »

The Buddha, on the other hand, took the position that our experience of the present is conditioned by both past and present actions, i.e., the non-linear theory of causality.

Isn't that the answer to the question right there?

rizenfenix

I suspect the answer may be yes to both your questions. Perhaps we exercise free-will, yet only within a broad conditioned arena of pre-determination. Here, of all places, we can acknowledge the dependencies of both concepts. Both are of a phenomenal nature, each bound and defined by the converse of the other. As one does not acknowledge free-will through simple possession or epiphany, we exercise the concept within the vast limits, known and unknown, of pre-determination in-turn acknowledging those actions as free-will.
So perhaps the answer isn’t as curt as the differences between linear and non-linear causality, but rather between our concepts of free-will and pre-determination and the perfection of their co-existence.

BrotherBob

We experience stuff happening based on the conditioned characteristics of our present moment state of being. We may mindfully or unmindfully determine what to do about it - make a choice. With mindfulness of the BuddhaDharma we may choose to act in a way that frees us and others from suffering.

I've read this interpretation of the thirty-sixth of the Thirty-Seven Practices of Bodhisattvas by Tongme Sangpo:

'In brief, whatever's happening, ask yourself; "What's the state of my mind?" and with mindfulness and mental alertness accomplish others' good. This is the practice of Bodhisattvas.'

Shalom and Hugs!

caz

rizenfenix wrote: »

I suspect the answer may be yes to both your questions. Perhaps we exercise free-will, yet only within a broad conditioned arena of pre-determination. Here, of all places, we can acknowledge the dependencies of both concepts. Both are of a phenomenal nature, each bound and defined by the converse of the other. As one does not acknowledge free-will through simple possession or epiphany, we exercise the concept within the vast limits, known and unknown, of pre-determination in-turn acknowledging those actions as free-will.
So perhaps the answer isn’t as curt as the differences between linear and non-linear causality, but rather between our concepts of free-will and pre-determination and the perfection of their co-existence.

I agree thats more or less the conclusion i came to.

rizenfenix

caz namyaw wrote: »

I agree thats more or less the conclusion i came to.

I remain consistently wary of conclusions, and those who purport to have them. Is it not better to avoid the trappings of dogma and remain ignorant, than to indulge in shallow conclusions and profess absolute understanding? The wellspring of wisdom is fathomless, for within exists deeper knowledge, deeper understanding and deeper truth. By exercising ideas and voicing questions, such as yours, we all become richer through simple, friendly and logical discourse. Some learn, while in the minds others thoughts blossom. The perpetual nature of understanding is awesome, as is the extinguishment of ignorance.

As such, your generosity is most appreciated and welcome.

Tristram30

I don't agree that determinism somehow interacts with free will, or determinism interacts with the present. Surely, if some things are determined then everything is determined?

ShiftPlusOne

Well, it's neither. We don't have absolute free will, our day to day decisions are made up before we are consciously aware of them. However, these decisions are based on the inputs given to us by the environment, which can be quite chaotic. I tend to view it as a friction-less pool table - set in motion, but there's no predetermined outcome.

Jason

Well, it's neither. We don't have absolute free will, our day to day decisions are made up before we are consciously aware of them. However, these decisions are based on the inputs given to us by the environment, which can be quite chaotic. I tend to view it as a friction-less pool table - set in motion, but there's no predetermined outcome.

I see it in much the same way. The Buddha essentially took the position that we, as sentient beings, have functional choice via intention (cetana) operating within a broader framework of causality that conditions the choices available to us at any given time. As one erudite poster from dhammawheel.com put it:

Functional choice isn't independent of other causes and conditions — it operates within the same conditioned mind-stream. But it does operate, and it does so in consort with desire and attention, etc. Hence there is no need for Cartesian notions of free will or Upanisadic notions of a permanent, unchanging Self for there to be functional choice. In fact, these non-Buddhist systems are not sustainable precisely because of the interdependence of phenomena: i.e. an unchanging agent cannot engage in actions, etc.

upekka

Right View is the line

before Right-view there is no free will
after Right-view and when there is mindfulness there is free will

TheJourney

Your reality is determined by past and present karma. Past actions create a range of possibilities, and your present action chooses which one becomes your reality.

Jason

Your reality is determined by past and present karma. Past actions create a range of possibilities, and your present action chooses which one becomes your reality.

That's a nice way putting it, I think.

[DeletedUser]

I tell you what this is an interesting mind bender.

Do we have free will ? Or is everything Pre-determined.

Its interesting to think that potentially every experience i have is past karma ripening so what reality of free will is there when everychoice i could make is potential ment to happen ?
Thats one line of thought so i ask you what is your opinion on this subject ?

Ya right! Be happy and let it be while exercising loving kindness through generosity and magnanimity in no-self mode of transmission :bawl:

DhammaDhatu

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html

:coffee:

Dakini

If

I tell you what this is an interesting mind bender.

Do we have free will ? Or is everything Pre-determined.

Its interesting to think that potentially every experience i have is past karma ripening so what reality of free will is there when everychoice i could make is potential ment to happen ?
Thats one line of thought so i ask you what is your opinion on this subject ?

If everything in life were the result of past karma ripening, we'd have no opp'ty to make choices to create future karma. We can't assume that everything is the result of past karma. According to several members quoting Pali Canon, the workings of karma are mysterious and inscrutable, the Buddha taught. This specific question was adressed on another thread recently (about free will and karma). Maybe you could find it if you did a search, Caz.

Mintyfresh0

Not sure this question can be answered with any sort of truism.

One on level, all past experiences add up and make our choices for us.

But on the other hand, we're able to observe our thoughts and choices, which implies the ability to change them... implying free-will.

Sure is a wonderful paradox.

Easier to sit back and let the universe take you for a ride, at least thats my opinion haha.

thickpaper

I don't really think this question applies to Dharma, because the question's meaning needs an agent that is acting in a world distinct from their agency.

I still make choices but these are not really choices I made, nor are they random, nor determined, rather they interdependent with all else. "There is no thinker only thought". There is no actor, only action. There is no doer, only done.

Does that seem right?

compassionate_warrior

Here's a quote from another thread, posted by Federica:

"For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present being shaped both by past and present actions. Present actions need not be determined by past actions. There is free will, though its range is somewhat dictated by the past.

The nature of this freedom is symbolized by flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted to any direction."

caz

Here's a quote from another thread, posted by Federica:

"For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present being shaped both by past and present actions. Present actions need not be determined by past actions. There is free will, though its range is somewhat dictated by the past.

The nature of this freedom is symbolized by flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted to any direction."

I like that thanks

Cloud

@Caz/OP:

"I" desires free-will, sees itself making choices. With the abandonment of "I", there is no "chooser" delusion. So is there free-will? Depends upon "you".

Nothing is pre-determined, but determined by conditions at each moment. Pre-determined implies a design rather than causality operating upon the conditions present in each moment.

Jeffrey

free will and karma are both relative truths. conceptual overlays to reality. or you could say observations would be kinder. they only point to what is happening but you can't imprison reality within them.

caz

@Caz/OP:

"I" desires free-will, sees itself making choices. With the abandonment of "I", there is no "chooser" delusion. So is there free-will? Depends upon "you".

Nothing is pre-determined, but determined by conditions at each moment. Pre-determined implies a design rather than causality operating upon the conditions present in each moment.

Ah well spoke

Tanda

Visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_astrologyand Google some other sites for Nadi Astrology.
If they are able to locate your palm leaf,your significant facts about your parents and siblings are told as recorded in the palm leaf. I am unable to say it is fake because the what is written n the palm leaf is in chaste Tamil adhering perfectly rules of composing verses; you can bet there is not a single soul today with that much proficiency and skill in Tamil language. I may case I was stunned with the accuracy of my parents name and wife's name in it.) But all their predictions of future went wrong, it is another story).

So,is it true that several things in your lives are inherited from the past as recorded in theses palm leaves which are nearly four centuries old?

fofoo

I looked at this thread but I miss 2 important persons of the issue of free will in western thought:

1. Arthur Schopenhauer. He denies that we have free will but are conditioned according to "the fourfold root of the principle of sufficient reason"
2. Sigmund Freud. He talks about the 3 Kränkungen (hurts) of mankind, the third one is that much of human decision making happens unconsciously thru our drives, conscious acts almost are an exception.

If you are really interested in that topic, I suggest you read some of the works of these two guys

ShiftPlusOne

fofoo, "human decision making happens unconsciously thru our drives" that idea has been fermenting in my head over the last couple of months (after I found out about Libet's experiment). I didn't know Freud wrote about it. Interesting, thanks.

revolutionary

Your reality is determined by past and present karma. Past actions create a range of possibilities, and your present action chooses which one becomes your reality.

In result, free will only applies to the expanse of all your lives; it is dependent upon the adherence to belief.

It makes a statement through belief that the individual made a decision within a previous life that placed them in their current position.
The problem associated with this is that the belief of past lives must be in effect true, in order for it to be a reality; even then it contradicts itself in practice and thought.

let us examine further and isolate it to one lifetime within an acceptance of belief concerning multiple lives.

If our Karmic attachment within a previous life led us to a life of a murderer, how do we escape the attachment that placed us in such a position?
We can only conclude that if we were placed within the exact same Karmic attachment as this murderer, every decision within this life would be identical..... Free will is an impossibility, it is dependent upon the conditions present within the current life, that is placed there by the previous life, there is no escape!
To say you would have made a different choice within the same Karmic attachment to advance the growth within it, states that miraculously you had some unseen innate quality that provided you with such discernment that another life that was identical was unable to grasp.
Christians refer to this as a blessing; the reality is that it condemns this life to a predetermined state that it can never escape.
To advance karmic attachment, makes a statement about one thing, we believe our Karma has placed us at this position of advantage; when the only attachment is within the ego of thought alone.
We must address the actual condition that is present which produces the choice, in order to affect change. Believing it is the choice of the individual, ensures that it continues forever.

TheJourney

@Caz/OP:

"I" desires free-will, sees itself making choices. With the abandonment of "I", there is no "chooser" delusion. So is there free-will? Depends upon "you".

Nothing is pre-determined, but determined by conditions at each moment. Pre-determined implies a design rather than causality operating upon the conditions present in each moment.

I'm pretty sure I don't agree with you...but oh well I don't feel like explaining my point of view

TheJourney

Aight fuck it. I'll explain briefly.

You're denying the reality of present karma as well as the role of the ego. If it was all pre-determined then there would be no such thing as present karma. Karma is intention. There HAS to be present karma in addition to the past karma, or nothing would get done. Reality isn't pre-designed. The ego is real, whether you like it or not. Now, you should know by now that I understand what you're saying. When I talk about my ego, it's not like other people's egos. But there is still a sense of self. I don't want to lose that sense of self. I couldn't exist as an individual if there wasn't some sense of self. You've been taught to deny your ego. If you do that, you will only experience half of what life has to offer. The ego is real, embrace it. Take the best of both worlds. Enjoy your oneness with the world that I know you have, but take advantage of your ego as well. Just use it wisely. But you already know how to use it, so it's just about whether or not you're willing to take that step to accepting the reality of the "ego."

Cloud

Nah what I said is correct to my understanding. What you say is correct to your understanding.

Spaceless

I tell you what this is an interesting mind bender.
Do we have free will ? Or is everything Pre-determined.
Its interesting to think that potentially every experience i have is past karma ripening so what reality of free will is there when everychoice i could make is potential ment to happen ?
Thats one line of thought so i ask you what is your opinion on this subject ?

For instance, you have a free will to choose vegetarian food so as to love the animals, and not being reborn in the animal realm due to ignorant that animals also a living being that are loving like human.

revolutionary

For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed that karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. Furthermore, present actions need not be determined by past actions. In other words, there is free will, although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. The nature of this freedom is symbolized in an image used by the early Buddhists: flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted in almost any direction.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html[/url]

Linear and non-linear, you do realize this does nothing to change the aspect of thought in application?
Lets apply that in thought now.

The only way free will actual applies in this belief is if it is infinitely dimensional and every single life is your own..... In other words, you are watching yourself suffer on multiple dimensions; in order to become enlightened you must envision a point where you no longer need to suffer and all your lives become whole and one.

Buddhism believes that every life has chosen their Karmic position (past, present or future), that these are necessary in the realization and growth of the individual. This belief solidifies that there is no room for free will, any concept of it is nothing more than an illusion.
Place yourself in every life in this world and imagine yourself in an identical Karmic position to them. Every choice they make in their life would be identical to the choices you would make if you were in the same position.
Even now in this life of yours, you believe you have a choice; however, this is based upon the capacity of the mind..... The choice is already clear within said capacity, before you have ever made it. Through adherence to Buddhism, every life is a muse. Even if it serves a purpose towards understanding, what is the purpose towards intellect when it realizes it is as a wound up toy?

There is a different possibility, that every life is a reflection of our own, similar to that infinite dimensional I spoke of. We have the ability to change the entire face of existence, setting it free into the expression of every life and every mind. This world becomes a canvas of infinite expression where every life adds to the definition of it's color and form.
Free will only applies to the vision of the collective, we must reach out to every life and draw it in to our own.

revolutionary

This world becomes a canvas of infinite expression where every life adds to the definition of it's color and form.
Free will only applies to the vision of the collective, we must reach out to every life and draw it in to our own.

My fiance expressed that this was a bit confusing in the question "Isn't this what is already happening?"
I found it necessary to expand a bit for that reason, so don't attack me for back to back posts.

Right now we accept an existence where it is predominately the condition that produces the mind; what I am speaking of is an existence where it is the mind that produces the condition.

If anyone is ready to accept that they have free will, you are welcome to PM me; I'd be happy to send some concepts concerning critical mass and the development of the free mind.