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"I did [this], chose [this], because I have free will... but then again the reason I did [this], chose [this], is because of [one or more conditions/reasons]."
Believe or not, it's your choice and there's no reason to have to go to lengths to prove it; but don't forget that on some level everything is interconnected, that there is no separate self that acts.
This is a false statement. Through adherence to belief, we can unequivocally state that free will is a false notion using simple application.
Place yourself in any life in an identical Karmic attachment..... Past, present or future..... It is impossible to deviate from the "choices" this life makes; no way around this simple realization.
Here is the distinction, Buddhism accepts that the condition is part of the Karmic attachment. When we no longer choose to accept the condition and seek to change it for the entire of humanity; then and only then can we exhibit free will.
If it matters not, it matters not.... But leave it at that! Don't try to make claims that you can't substantiate.
I'm not here to tell anyone they are wrong, I'm here to search minds..... Believe what you believe, I will always respect that..... The only thing that is necessary is that you understand exactly what that is, and the statement it makes. I am here to provide knowledge, nothing more, nothing less!
As a pawn in a board game that is already played, what does it truly mean to become enlightened? Without free will.....................
We are told by the mind that we are working hard to achieve Bodhisattva, but the realization of intellect is that the work is impersonal and therefore an illusion.
We believe we gain mindfulness through our practice and Karmic growth; thought is impersonal and therefore the ability of the mind and what is obtained through it is an illusion.
We believe that we will achieve enlightenment, but every action is impersonal and therefore any purpose perceived within this existence is an illusion.
If every perceived individual existence without actual purpose is supposed to reach a state of "enlightenment"; individuality is an illusion, and therefore enlightenment as it pertains to the individual is an illusion and nothing more than an attachment to ego.
If we are performing work that was never our own, thought that is not our own, given a concept of achievement that is not real within an existence that is nothing more than an illusion...... What exactly is the point? What is enlightenment within such an existence but the realization of nothingness?
Wake up, wake up...........it's just a terrible dream!
I do agree with one thing here, enlightenment is an illusion as it pertains to something that can be achieved for the individual mind. Enlightenment is truly impersonal, it is not something we obtain for ourselves; but something we offer to another...... When we have freed every life and every mind. it is only then we can catch a glimpse of our own, very personal beauty.
I think you are saying that the Buddhist path is a farce. Fair enough but how did you propose to free every life and mind again? Sorry if I did not understand when you explained it before.
ahhh revolutionary. I know you have had real insight but you're stuck at a point that some people get stuck in which is basically getting caught up in the idea of "illusion." I understand what you are saying perfectly and it is basically true, but to get caught up in this notion of everything being an illusion will simply keep you in the illusion.
I'm actually not caught up in any idea of illusion. My will to act in order to affect change is very real.... My voice of expression within my individuality is again very real..... The state of humanity and all the suffering that exists within it.... real, needless, but still very real.... The passion within my dreams and vision are a reality far beyond any illusion.
It is the belief that this is the "choice" of, or grand plan for the individual through Karmic attachment, that makes all of it into an illusion.
Even in the indulgence of thought that we will achieve enlightenment at some point and be delivered from the illusion, what does it offer the mind? Should I be a good little pawn, jump through all the hoops and forget what I know, is that the key to becoming complete?
The brilliance in my eyes is that if Buddhism is correct and this is how knowledge is provided for the mind..... I never want to know what nirvana is. If this is how nirvana constructs mindfulness, I'd much rather live an illusion of will, expression, dreams, vision and passion. Reaching out to lives with a purpose to end their suffering and forego the edification of myself, is quite a lovely illusion.
It can't be accomplished, because it is illogical to think it is something which can be "achieved" by a "person." It is beyond existence, and yet so interwoven with it. There is only freedom from your self-created imprisonment.
TJ my post was aimed at Revolutionary. He/She seems to be offering a different view from the one that he/she believes that Buddhists hold and has indicated that he /she is actively working to " free every life and mind". I'm curious how to do that.
I think you are saying that the Buddhist path is a farce. Fair enough but how did you propose to free every life and mind again? Sorry if I did not understand when you explained it before.
Although not off the topic of free will, I don't want to lose focus concerning the topic. I will start a new thread, give me some time to put it together..... As you might imagine, it's a bit involved.
It can't be accomplished, because it is illogical to think it is something which can be "achieved" by a "person." It is beyond existence, and yet so interwoven with it. There is only freedom from your self-created imprisonment.
It can be achieved....... I know how..... You believe that I don't, what if that is your prison?
The concept is there in Buddhism, when you truly become free, everyone sees themselves within that freedom.
It draws every mind in where it then begins a new creation of expression.
That is your truth. I know how to accomplish what I want too. But it's not ultimately true. There is only our own individual truths. Only perception. Only the desire for ultimate truth and the path to obtain it, with no ultimate goal in sight.
It actually has nothing to do with a personal truth, it is something observable by every life and every mind. It makes no statement about perception, it does not declare an ultimate truth, nor does it designate a path by which one might obtain it. Concerning a goal, possibilities and potential are endless and therefore infinite in expression.
You have stated through your belief, limits in possibility and potential. You have designated a path towards the achievement of freedom, and declared it to be the ultimate truth.
There is no box large enough to contain me or my mind, my observation of the universe and it's brilliance in perception already know this about me.
"I feel it my duty to make a real appeal to conscience and not to belief. Conscience is solid, convicting and permanently demonstrative; belief is only a matter of opinion, changeable by superior reasoning." Marcus Garvey 1923 speaking out against oppression
If you were to ask an analogy of what I see....... Every life and it's path is a finger upon the same hand that reaches out to grasp for truth. Declare that there is only one path and the rest are forced back into a fist.
You're just wording what i'm saying differently. You're talking but not listening. Noone will listen to you if you just talk.
I did listen....... I heard you state that something can't be accomplished, that it's illogical..... I heard you state free will from something that proves itself otherwise. Perhaps it's not about me listening to you, but that you should listen to yourself.
You're arrogant. Arrogance shows a lack of understanding.
Arrogance is believing that people who are suffering are in that position because of their own Karmic attachment...... This means that any privilege or advantage in this world is through an elevated state of Karmic growth. If you are incorrect, these lives are suffering needlessly and your privilege and advantage have provided you with a voice and the power to change it.... To end their suffering! Your belief turns your back on these lives, because your path finds it a necessity within their own growth.... If you're wrong, it's beyond arrogant; that is quite a leap of faith! Again, listen to yourself.... For your sake, that you don't have to suffer this knowledge, I hope you are correct.
If you see the truth, that's all you can see. If you see anything that is not the truth, then you don't see the truth. And that's it. I have nothing more to say on the matter.
Here is a simple question in the demonstration of arrogance.
If I could tell you how we could end all the suffering in the world, if I could offer that to you..... Would you take it and act upon it, or does your belief tell you it is a pointless act?
Please answer this honestly, perhaps then we can even advance this discussion on a constructive note.
If I want what you have to offer me, I will approach you. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it all you want. But you can't expect or even want anyone to agree with you, unless they come to you or agree with you on their own accord.
I'm asking you a simple question, you don't have to dance around it...... Right now, a hypothetical..... If I could provide information how to end suffering..... Would you take it and act upon it?
I realize the problems associated with the capacity of the mind and it's ability to understand. That's certainly not what we are dealing with! I'm not asking for any agreement or disagreement here, just an answer to a question that makes a statement about itself only.
I don't believe that you have anything to offer me. So you can tell me whatever you want. It's up to you. I'm not you. I'm me. I'm not dancing around anything. I'm just tryin to help you out.
I don't believe that you have anything to offer me.
i understand the fear of just coming forward in answering the question.
But this here makes quite a statement. Would your belief prevent you from hearing, if I did have something to offer? You do understand that this statement is arrogance at it's finest. Something that is supposed to demonstrate mindfulness, and yet so close minded? Listen to yourself!
And now we can actually get somewhere...... I agree!
Now a hypothetical...... If I could absolutely show how suffering no longer needs to exist, would you accept it and act upon it?
You do understand the paradox here, your belief declares this to be an impossibility, but if i could do exactly that.... What does that say about the belief?
So those who are starving to death while we have the abundance of food and the means to provide it, created it themselves? So it is their option not to perceive suffering, even when it is needless? This is quite a luxury coming from a mouth that is filled with abundance. You're accepting the condition and stating that people don't have to perceive it as suffering. The condition is very real and very changeable, it produces and perpetuates suffering. I'm not talking about dreaming it all away, I'm talking about a physical existence where every body and mind is filled, overflowing, sated.
Right. But it's not ultimately real. The buddha can still experience suffering in the same way anyone else can. But all there is is the mental response. If you know the truth, then there is no suffering.
Cuz you still think that there's such a thing as good and bad. There only is what there is. There is no good, there is no bad. "Good" and "bad" are merely perceptions.
Right. But it's not ultimately real. The buddha can still experience suffering in the same way anyone else can. But all there is is the mental response. If you know the truth, then there is no suffering.
If it's not ultimately real, then it should be very easy to change it into a point where it is a better reflection of what is real within the mind....... I'm missing the point here! Do you think it would be easier to see the reality of the mind if the physical nature was a better representation of it?
Go to a life that is starving and tell it that it's not real, therefore it doesn't need to perceive suffering. Better yet, give them your child as a token of your conviction within this belief and walk away.
Cuz you still think that there's such a thing as good and bad. There only is what there is. There is no good, there is no bad. "Good" and "bad" are merely perceptions.
Nothing to do with good and bad, in fact this is the antithesis of what I think. It's the lives that are discarded that speak the most to me, they are the reflection of where we need to develop our own voice of expression.
You're putting a lot of effort in trying to prove me wrong.
Have you ever tried to convince a Christian that their belief is quite condemning and contradictory? The offering of information is extremely easy, the difficulty lies on the receiving end. Of course your belief is true so that couldn't possibly be you, eh? Belief is like a box, you can't see anything beyond it's containment; it is especially difficult when it declares itself to be mindful.... Is mindfulness what you see going on here?
revolutionary- you said that you would start a thread to describe how we are to free every life and mind. I don't see it. Could you link it please.
I will put it together..... I've been writing towards this for several years.... Let me organize some key points and offer it up where it doesn't become too lengthy.
I also want to point something out here, Buddhism rings clear as a bell, right up to the point where it declares an absolute.... Right up to the point where it suggests suffering is a necessity and that it is because of Karmic attachment.... Right up to the point where ego states that birth or "rebirth" into privilege is something that is a rightful belonging of the individual over another that is suffering within their own.. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to prove every life to be an equal expression of our own. If this was the view, we wouldn't allow a single condition to exist in life, where it leads to suffering. The adherence to belief, tells us there is no responsibility of our own to address another life that suffers, it ensures that we never change the conditions that produce it.
You are so right that we can't see past our box of beliefs- your belief is the truth, right? Also- I think we don't have any karmic chains binding us- we are as free to do as we please as the physical things and people around us allow.
You will never see an absolute in what I believe.... The potential in expression is infinite.... It is all observable in any sense of the body or mind....... If there is no absolute, there is no box!
Karmic chains? There is obviously the capacity of the mind as it relates to the condition. Having the condition to envision freedom is not the condition available to every life. Having been born into a freedom to grasp such a vision provides a luxury to say exactly what you have said. There are no chains binding us..... There are lives that will never be able to see beyond the war, starvation, disease and ignorance that plagues them.... They will die within this and never be able to escape the condition which produces it. Here is your box.... You do not address the condition within this luxury in capacity of thought. You indulge a belief that states this life chose this position through Karmic attachment, more important, your life chose this position of "mindfulness" (luxury) within it's own.
Comments
Believe or not, it's your choice and there's no reason to have to go to lengths to prove it; but don't forget that on some level everything is interconnected, that there is no separate self that acts.
Through adherence to belief, we can unequivocally state that free will is a false notion using simple application.
Place yourself in any life in an identical Karmic attachment..... Past, present or future..... It is impossible to deviate from the "choices" this life makes; no way around this simple realization.
If it matters not, it matters not.... But leave it at that! Don't try to make claims that you can't substantiate.
I am here to provide knowledge, nothing more, nothing less!
Without free will.....................
We are told by the mind that we are working hard to achieve Bodhisattva, but the realization of intellect is that the work is impersonal and therefore an illusion.
We believe we gain mindfulness through our practice and Karmic growth; thought is impersonal and therefore the ability of the mind and what is obtained through it is an illusion.
We believe that we will achieve enlightenment, but every action is impersonal and therefore any purpose perceived within this existence is an illusion.
If every perceived individual existence without actual purpose is supposed to reach a state of "enlightenment"; individuality is an illusion, and therefore enlightenment as it pertains to the individual is an illusion and nothing more than an attachment to ego.
If we are performing work that was never our own, thought that is not our own, given a concept of achievement that is not real within an existence that is nothing more than an illusion...... What exactly is the point?
What is enlightenment within such an existence but the realization of nothingness?
Wake up, wake up...........it's just a terrible dream!
I do agree with one thing here, enlightenment is an illusion as it pertains to something that can be achieved for the individual mind.
Enlightenment is truly impersonal, it is not something we obtain for ourselves; but something we offer to another...... When we have freed every life and every mind. it is only then we can catch a glimpse of our own, very personal beauty.
It is the belief that this is the "choice" of, or grand plan for the individual through Karmic attachment, that makes all of it into an illusion.
Even in the indulgence of thought that we will achieve enlightenment at some point and be delivered from the illusion, what does it offer the mind?
Should I be a good little pawn, jump through all the hoops and forget what I know, is that the key to becoming complete?
The brilliance in my eyes is that if Buddhism is correct and this is how knowledge is provided for the mind..... I never want to know what nirvana is. If this is how nirvana constructs mindfulness, I'd much rather live an illusion of will, expression, dreams, vision and passion.
Reaching out to lives with a purpose to end their suffering and forego the edification of myself, is quite a lovely illusion.
I will start a new thread, give me some time to put it together..... As you might imagine, it's a bit involved.
The concept is there in Buddhism, when you truly become free, everyone sees themselves within that freedom.
It draws every mind in where it then begins a new creation of expression.
It makes no statement about perception, it does not declare an ultimate truth, nor does it designate a path by which one might obtain it. Concerning a goal, possibilities and potential are endless and therefore infinite in expression.
You have stated through your belief, limits in possibility and potential. You have designated a path towards the achievement of freedom, and declared it to be the ultimate truth.
There is no box large enough to contain me or my mind, my observation of the universe and it's brilliance in perception already know this about me.
"I feel it my duty to make a real appeal to conscience and not to belief. Conscience is solid, convicting and permanently demonstrative; belief is only a matter of opinion, changeable by superior reasoning."
Marcus Garvey 1923 speaking out against oppression
Perhaps it's not about me listening to you, but that you should listen to yourself.
If you are incorrect, these lives are suffering needlessly and your privilege and advantage have provided you with a voice and the power to change it.... To end their suffering!
Your belief turns your back on these lives, because your path finds it a necessity within their own growth.... If you're wrong, it's beyond arrogant; that is quite a leap of faith! Again, listen to yourself.... For your sake, that you don't have to suffer this knowledge, I hope you are correct.
If I could tell you how we could end all the suffering in the world, if I could offer that to you..... Would you take it and act upon it, or does your belief tell you it is a pointless act?
Please answer this honestly, perhaps then we can even advance this discussion on a constructive note.
I realize the problems associated with the capacity of the mind and it's ability to understand. That's certainly not what we are dealing with! I'm not asking for any agreement or disagreement here, just an answer to a question that makes a statement about itself only.
But this here makes quite a statement. Would your belief prevent you from hearing, if I did have something to offer? You do understand that this statement is arrogance at it's finest.
Something that is supposed to demonstrate mindfulness, and yet so close minded? Listen to yourself!
Now a hypothetical...... If I could absolutely show how suffering no longer needs to exist, would you accept it and act upon it?
You do understand the paradox here, your belief declares this to be an impossibility, but if i could do exactly that.... What does that say about the belief?
Critical thinking only here!
So it is their option not to perceive suffering, even when it is needless? This is quite a luxury coming from a mouth that is filled with abundance.
You're accepting the condition and stating that people don't have to perceive it as suffering. The condition is very real and very changeable, it produces and perpetuates suffering.
I'm not talking about dreaming it all away, I'm talking about a physical existence where every body and mind is filled, overflowing, sated.
Do you think it would be easier to see the reality of the mind if the physical nature was a better representation of it?
Go to a life that is starving and tell it that it's not real, therefore it doesn't need to perceive suffering. Better yet, give them your child as a token of your conviction within this belief and walk away.
The offering of information is extremely easy, the difficulty lies on the receiving end. Of course your belief is true so that couldn't possibly be you, eh?
Belief is like a box, you can't see anything beyond it's containment; it is especially difficult when it declares itself to be mindful.... Is mindfulness what you see going on here?
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to prove every life to be an equal expression of our own. If this was the view, we wouldn't allow a single condition to exist in life, where it leads to suffering. The adherence to belief, tells us there is no responsibility of our own to address another life that suffers, it ensures that we never change the conditions that produce it.
Also- I think we don't have any karmic chains binding us- we are as free to do as we please as the physical things and people around us allow.
If there is no absolute, there is no box!
Karmic chains? There is obviously the capacity of the mind as it relates to the condition. Having the condition to envision freedom is not the condition available to every life. Having been born into a freedom to grasp such a vision provides a luxury to say exactly what you have said.
There are no chains binding us..... There are lives that will never be able to see beyond the war, starvation, disease and ignorance that plagues them.... They will die within this and never be able to escape the condition which produces it.
Here is your box.... You do not address the condition within this luxury in capacity of thought. You indulge a belief that states this life chose this position through Karmic attachment, more important, your life chose this position of "mindfulness" (luxury) within it's own.