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Plea to treat Shugden Practitioners fairly

edited July 2010 in Philosophy
Many Dorje Shugden practitioners are now being "exiled' in their own exiled commnunity. (find out more from this Youtube video entitled Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden, Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y

I strongly feel that instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Invite them, teach them, slowly and give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the practice assuming it is ‘wrong’. Wouldn’t that be a Buddhistic approach to all ‘wrong-doers’?

Dorje Shugden practitioners are not doing anything wrong. But hypothetically, if they are, wouldn’t it be a better and more true to the spirit of Buddhism to be accepting? So those reading this website who have views against Dorje Shugden should contemplate this.

Those who are practicing Dorje Shugden should forbear with extreme patience, fortitude and keep their commitments.
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Comments

  • edited February 2010
    I recently read an article on forum at dorjeshugden.com, and I would like to share with everyone:

    • May 14, 1995 – Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy I
    Prophesy (kha.lung) through the Tsangpa Oracle requested by the Private Office of the Dalai Lama, Prophesies of the Tibetan Government Oracles, published by the Department of Religion and Culture of the Tibetan Administration of the Dalai Lama, Dharamsala, 1996, p. 13.

    "It is important that Tibetans should observe their commitments (dam.tsig) which is their obligation. Particularly, the issue of Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is a bad omen. In this direction, we, the formless, are aware that it does not harbor good. This should definitely be stopped (mtshams.'jog) in the region of Tibet. With respect to the issue of the unity of religion and politics [of Tibet] and the Ganden Potang government in particular, Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] cannot demonstrate even a grain of benefit. He can never bring happiness for Tibet [or Tibetan people?].

    • June 14, 1995- Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy II
    Prophesy (kha.lung) through the Tsangpa Oracle requested by the Cabinet of the exile government: Prophesies of the Tibetan Government Oracles, pp. 14-17.

    "An important current issue is that if you continue to go through the motions of government service as if it were punishment instead of serving the Ganden Potang government with total loyalty it is possible that this may pose a serious threat to the well being of Gyalwa Tenzin Gyatso [the Dalai Lama]. A grave issue has arisen concerning the administration of the Ganden Potang. One thing that I, the Tsangpa Dhungthoed Chan, have to say about this explicitly is that [Tibetan] worship of deities has now reached a critical stage. It is extremely sad that Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] the Chinese spirit is being worshiped.

    Even though [Gyalchen] angers Gyalwa Tenzin Gyatso [the Dalai Lama], there are those who worship him [Dorje Shugden] and who revere him in secret. Not only are there such worshipers in Tibet, there is deep reverence for him even among government employees. This is very harmful. That he is of great harm has already been said by Dorje Dragden [Nechung].

    In this regard there is a popular perception that there is acrimony between Dorje Dragden [Nechung] and Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden]. That can never be true. For the success of Buddhism and the Ganden Potang government, Dorje Dragden continues to extend to me complete support and since I too am to pursue this path completely, [I have to point out] that if the Cabinet and the People's Deputies [Assembly] do not strictly decide this issue and adhere to it, even though Buddhism may spread and even though the causes for the speedy freedom for Tibet may have begun [to grow], Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is sowing dissension [among Tibetans] by employing Chinese spirits and [furthermore] taking advantage of being a formless entity to vocalize and spread misinformation and thereby supporting China. This is a grave matter. Interesting to note here is that the Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden strongly favor Tibetan independence. Thus, it is difficult to reconcile that they would be working for the Chinese who are so adamantly against Tibetan independence. It is almost as if someone were trying on purpose to divide the Tibetan people along these lines, zeroing in on the deepest karmic weakness of the Ganden Potang government brought forward into the twentieth century. One has only to ask, in whose interest would such a division be?

    We recommend rituals toward the well being of Gyalwa Rinpoche [the Dalai Lama]. Nevertheless, it is our serious concern that there needs to be strict adherence to the wishes of His Holiness and internal unity. Whether it be the People's Deputies or an ordinary Tibetan, it is unacceptable for anyone to engage in partisan politics.

    Of the honest guidelines stipulated by [His Holiness] in this regard, the most important is that regarding the worship of deities. If the common Tibetans and the government employees in particular do not heed those guidelines, there will be great loss for all." When in 1995 someone claims that the seeds of freedom for Tibet are flourishing when the Chinese have vowed to wipe out even the name of the Dalai Lama from history seems a blatant contradiction. In fact, this sounds so absurd that one must conclude something else entirely must be going on here. I think it is that the demonization of the Dalai Lama by the Chinese which started in 1995 is passed right on to Dorje Shugden. Perhaps he is strong enough to carry such a heavy burden. Who is to say which would be a greater loss to the tradition of Buddhism, a Dalai Lama shouldering the blame for the loss of Tibet, no doubt unjustly, or Dorje Shugden and the split banning him has caused within Buddhism? All we know for certain is that the demonization of Dorje Shugden split the Tibetan community. It drive underground many genuine Buddhist practitioners and their practices, leaving in the larger public view mostly those who know how to play their political card correctly.

    Another interesting point about this "prophesy" is the claim that acrimony between Nechung and Dorje Shugden is impossible. This is a statement from an ultimate and exclusively religious point of view also held by Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden. Clearly there is a danger to the Ganden Potang government of the Dalai Lama. The Chinese have been working hard to destroy it for the last fifty years. Blaming Dorje Shugden for the actions of the Chinese makes the issue a political one. Dorje Shugden is -- even for the government protector through this oracle -- a matter of politics. The issue the oracle points out it is about the [deposed] Tibetan government, that is, the institution of the Dalai Lama. It is political, especially when it concerns the Chinese.

    In one trance ceremony of Tsering Chenga, the female oracle tells that Dorje Shugden
    prevented her from raising the Tibetan flag on the Potala in Lhasa Some of the prophesies of these oracles are published by the exile government's Department of Religion and Culture, 1996: gzung.bsten bod.skyong lha.srung khag.gi rdo.rje bka'.lung bzhug.so // implying that Dorje Shugden works for the Chinese.

    • 1995- Exorcism Rituals Against Dorje Shugden
    The Dharamsala government Most government rituals are performed by Namgyal Monastery, special to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government. In the course of the ban, other monasteries were also asked by the government to perform anti-Dorje Shugden rituals, often without the participating monks knowing specifically who had ordered them. performs massive exorcism rituals against Dorje Shugden. For some the Dalai Lama is present. See above reference, the Dalai Lama's statement of March 21, 1996 It is said that for thirteen days after the Tibetan new year celebrated in spring 1996, the government did rituals against Dorje Shugden.


    Above article extracted from:

    http://www.shugdensociety.info/Bernis2EN.html



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    Now, Dorje Shugden acts in the Bodhisattva manner accepting criticisms, hate campaigns and the 'destruction' of his practice. Why?

    Because it serves a bigger purpose for the overall survival of Buddhism in the world for the future.

    Why?

    It is easier to resurrect or do a Lazarus on Dorje Shugden in the future when the smoke clears, than it would be for the Dalai lama. The Dalai lama is a man and controlled by media, opinions, ppl, circumstances. But Dorje Shugden is a formless entity that can 'rise' above all of that very quickly when the time is right.
  • edited February 2010
    pathseeker wrote: »
    It is easier to resurrect or do a Lazarus on Dorje Shugden in the future when the smoke clears, than it would be for the Dalai lama. The Dalai lama is a man and controlled by media, opinions, ppl, circumstances. But Dorje Shugden is a formless entity that can 'rise' above all of that very quickly when the time is right.

    Ridiculous.
  • edited February 2010
    Everyone's entitled to their own views. Perhaps you may share yours?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    I think he just did.

    I second the motion.
  • edited February 2010
    There must be a reason why you think that is ridiculous. And I hope you can share your reasons why. This is a forum for discussion, not for critics :)

    And I do accept constructive criticism cos that will help all of us learn Dharma in that way.

    I know that Gelugpa monasteries have daily debate session to help sharpen their knowledge and understanding.
  • edited February 2010
    pathseeker wrote: »
    There must be a reason why you think that is ridiculous. And I hope you can share your reasons why. This is a forum for discussion, not for critics :)

    And I do accept constructive criticism cos that will help all of us learn Dharma in that way.

    I know that Gelugpa monasteries have daily debate session to help sharpen their knowledge and understanding.

    The information from the society you used as a reference is not a valid source of info. Their "history" of the situation is fabricated to suit their needs.
    Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Tibetan history can see through their transparent and grossly inaccurate rhetoric.
    This is in my opinion the primary reason why its ridiculous, which it most certainly is.
  • edited February 2010
    Second post TLDR... :(
  • edited February 2010
    Second post TLDR... :(
    huh?
  • edited February 2010
    It means Too Long Didn't Read. I'm saying the poster needs to break up his text better. It's difficult to read the way he posted.
  • edited February 2010
    It means Too Long Didn't Read. I'm saying the poster needs to break up his text better. It's difficult to read the way he posted.
    Its really not worth reading anyways.
    I havent missed anything.
  • edited February 2010
    I am confused by the whole Dorje thing. As an American, I left the Roman Catholic Church because of the many problems with the religion. One, I couldn't support was divine rule of the Pope as propagated by the church. He is viewed as the voice of god on earth. I have American friends that now practice Tibetan Buddhism. I always ask them, “So you believe in divine rule like the RC pope? They usually say no, and then I point out that the Dali Lama rules as a Divine Being. He legitimizes his rule by teachings that claim he is divine. Though he has mentioned separating the role of the Dali Lama from the government, he hasn’t followed up with his idea which he could do with pronouncement.

    So, who cares if a supposed Divine King outlaws the practice? I but as much weight in his edicts as much as I do his Divine King friend, the Pope.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Nothing like that at all, Torin. The Dalai Lama is not the Buddhist pope. He is, however, the head of the Gelugpa school, and as such he has the right to tell his students what practices are OK to do and which aren't. The reason he banned the Dorje Shugden practice is because it is intended to suppress other schools of Buddhism, which is not beneficial to anyone. It's really not very complex, despite the smokescreens put up by the Dorje Shugden people.

    Palzang
  • edited February 2010
    I keep hearing that he is not the head of state. Then if he isn't, the press is deceiving the public because he is portrayed as the head of state. If you ask the non-Buddhist American, they would say he is the head of state. Because he issues statements concerning the Government. Like his statement that the Office of the Dali Lama should separate from the government and a democratic government be installed.

    If that is the case, and he is the head of state, then NOTHING can come good from it. As a westerner you know it doesn't.

    Personally, is sounds like a freedom of religion thing. So for the practitioners who worship dorje shudgen, they need to separate from the Dali Lamam and start their own school. Case solved.

    Also, as a westerner you know a little heresy is good. At lest it helped the west dopes most of the kings in Europe and usher in freedoms.
  • edited February 2010
    Fist my spelling is very bad even with spell check! My last statement, "Also, as a westerner you know a little heresy is good. At lest it helped the west dopes most of the kings in Europe and usher in freedoms." dopes should be Depose. Sorry.

    In case I was wrong, which is most of the time, I went to the Dali Lama's website. here, http://www.dalailama.com/. Under the heading A Brief Biography, It says he is the head of state and spiritual leader.

    Again, as a American, I can only say, Pope for Tibetan Buddhism. And when you mix religion and the government together, problems happen. Just like with this dorje thing. He issues a religious statement about the practice, the power of the state is behind him.

    In america, religious make statements. The government ignores it most of the time. The American Government doesn't use it force to support the religious leader.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    Wrong again.
    Please supply references to where you have read this. I'd be interested, honestly. The Dalai Lama has never, to my knowledge, been referred to as the head of State for Tibet - which of course, I might be wrong in.

    He is Head of Government in exile, (that's different) which is solely occupied with giving Tibet a voice outside Tibet, and provides a united organised official body with which exiled Tibetans, and those sympathetic to the plight of Tibetans, can communicate.

    Freedom of religion is one thing. We have that in the UK. But the freedom to say what you want, within that religion, to the incitement of rebellion, is forbidden. Rightly so.
    There's a difference between Freedom of Speech and disguised aggression.

    Heresy is good? Really? Care to elaborate?
    I think that comes under 'talking out of your hat'. (for want of a better, even if less polite, term....)

    Frankly.
  • edited February 2010
    Federica, Heresy isn't good? I think the UK would look totally different if Henry the VIII or is his daughter, Elizabeth, hadn't been a heretic, declared so by the Pope. Of course the Heretics never few themselves as such, but looking though history, heretics bring change.


    The DL is now head of state in exile, but before the communist invaded, he was head of state of the Nation of Tibet. He continues to have a prime minister and most of the royal families still have a position in the exile government.

    Please don't get me wrong; what the Government of China is doing in Tibet is bad. I was asked to go to China for work and was excused when I said I was morally offended to go because of the Tibet situation. As Westerner, I have to question this romantic idea of Shangri-La. Tibet was ruled by the DL with the royal families controlling most of the wealth. Most Tibetans were indentured surfs. I often wonder if the DL enacted social reforms when was able, would the reforms slowed the Communist from invading.

    I also wonder if he would declare his office officially separate for the Government and have election for a parliament if China would be more amicable.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    He is Head of Government in exile, (that's different) which is solely occupied with giving Tibet a voice outside Tibet
    Being the main representative of a State, i.e. being the voice of the 'country', is what a Head of State is all about. Just like the Queen of England.

    The Head of Government means that he is the top figure of the Executive, as a Prime Minister would be.

    I the case of Tibet in exile he is neither, since a State is supposed to have three elements: territory, power and population. Since Tibetan Government in Exile holds no control over territory and has no sovereign power, it has to abide by Indian rules, which is the sovereign State that decided provided them exile.

    According to the constitution of India:
    15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth.- (2) No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them, be subject to any disability, liability, restriction or condition with regard to- (a) access to shops, public restaurants, hotels and places of public entertainment;
    25. Freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion.- (1) Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion.

    I won't go on and on about this. But the fact it there has been a lot of harassment against Shugden practitioners. That is what is wrong, not the disagreement between monks over a religious topic. It has more to do with Civil Liberties than with Buddhism itself.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Freedom of religion is one thing. We have that in the UK. But the freedom to say what you want, within that religion, to the incitement of rebellion, is forbidden. Rightly so.
    There's a difference between Freedom of Speech and disguised aggression.

    Nobody incited a rebellion. This practice is old. The Dalai Lama decided, for whatever reasons, to kick it out.

    Also, they are free to believe and propagate what they want, even if this leads to disagreement, separation, etc. That is a basic human right. It is all over international treatises.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    The Dalai Lama is not the Buddhist pope.
    Agreed.
    He is, however, the head of the Gelugpa school
    That's cool.
    and as such he has the right to tell his students what practices are OK to do and which aren't.
    As long as the students have the right to say "hey I am tired of this, I think I'll become a Christian and get a job as a salesman".
    The reason he banned the Dorje Shugden practice is because it is intended to suppress other schools of Buddhism, which is not beneficial to anyone.
    I don't know the reason. This spirit thing with Shugden and Nechung or whatever doesn't have much to do with us westerners anyway. It is a Tibetan thing and has nothing to do with enlightenment.
    It's really not very complex, despite the smokescreens put up by the Dorje Shugden people.
    I think it has more than meets the eye. For once it raises the question of where Tibetan Buddhism ends and Tibetan Politics\History start, and also involves the amount of power the Dalai Lama has over his people in exile vs. the laws of the State they are currently in.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited February 2010
    The Dalai Lama gave his instruction to stop Dorje Shugden as a spiritual leader, not as a political one. Yes, he is the political leader of the Tibetan government in exile. Yes, he was the king before being deposed by the Red Guards (now there's someone you'd certainly want to emulate, eh?). So? Nobody is ever required to do anything, but in Tibetan Buddhism the student-teacher relationship is very important, and to disregard one's teacher's instructions or to turn your back on your teacher has very heavy karmic repercussions. Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant.

    What you are doing is looking at this through Western eyes, which is not relevant to the situation and gives one a warped view of the whole thing. Are you saying it's OK to pray for the suppression of other Buddhist schools? That sounds like a freedom of religion issue more than instructing one's students not to do such a practice.

    Palzang
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Palzang wrote: »
    What you are doing is looking at this through Western eyes, which is not relevant to the situation and gives one a warped view of the whole thing. Are you saying it's OK to pray for the suppression of other Buddhist schools? That sounds like a freedom of religion issue more than instructing one's students not to do such a practice.

    Palzang

    Hey, Palzang! Could you reword this last bit a little more clearly? I think you're saying that Western eyes might tend to see it as merely a freedom of religion issue. If so, I wish you'd say more. I'm not as smart as you, dear fellow.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    What you are doing is looking at this through Western eyes, which is not relevant to the situation and gives one a warped view of the whole thing.
    Obviously it is relevant because this issue is crossing the line of Human Rights, which already spread to the East a while ago.
    Are you saying it's OK to pray for the suppression of other Buddhist schools?
    Seriously? Do you really think that is what DS is about? What was the Dalai Lama praying for when he was doing it? The destruction of his own school?
    That sounds like a freedom of religion issue more than instructing one's students not to do such a practice.

    It is a freedom of religion issue. After this whole thing started people have been severely injured.
  • edited February 2010
    Obviously it is relevant because this issue is crossing the line of Human Rights, which already spread to the East a while ago.

    Seriously? Do you really think that is what DS is about? What was the Dalai Lama praying for when he was doing it? The destruction of his own school?


    .
    that is exactly what its about. The practice has always been about the suppression of the other three lineages of Tibetan Buddhism and the overt claim that the Fifth Dalai Lama was a false Dalai Lama because he practiced within the Nyingma and Gelug lineages. The person who became the spirit known as DS actually was another candidate supported by political Gelugpa fundamentalists who wanted to see the other lineages suppressed if not eradicated completely.
    The practice was revived by Pabonkha in the early 1900's and he attempted to alter the history of the practice and change the scriptures in order to fit it in. For this he was reprimanded by the 13th Dalai Lama.
    The current Dalai Lama looked into the history of this practice after he went into exile and started using a non-sectarian approach to the lineages in order to foster their preservation. Upon realizing the hostility in the history of the practice HHDL asked people to give it up as he himself did.
    In the early 20th century a certain high profile Gelugpa who was in direct conflict with the 13th Dalai Lama went so far in his attempts to annihilate the other lineages of Tibetan Buddhism as to write letters to Chinese generals asking them to crack down on Kham, where the Sakya, Nyingma, and Kagyu schools were thriving. These letters are currently being translated into English.
    The use of DS practice was a major support in these attempts to erradicate the influence of the other lineages in Tibet and this was and is unacceptable in the current exile situation.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I don't believe or practice Dorje Shugden - I don't believe in spirit worship - and the Dalai Lama, the way I see him, is just a human being as any other, although he seems to be charismatic and very knowledgeable on buddhism (more than some other tulkus...), but that's not enough to call him a living Buddha.

    The fact that I disagree with the people that call him a living Buddha AND with the people that worship DS gives me the right to an opinion. "OK folks, as far as I am concerned, the Dalai Lama is a nice guy, but for me the tulku system is tibetan culture, and so is spirit worship". That is my freedom of speech. I can also stop both parties from coming to my house "Hey you are gonna make a mess with your butter lamps and flowers and you are gonna wake up the neighborhood at 4 am with your chanting, go do your thing somewhere else". That is my right to property.

    I cannot demand them to forsake their beliefs. That is their freedom of thought, their religious freedom. I cannot stop them from using the streets near my house, that is their freedom of movement. I cannot stop them from getting together to worship DS or getting together to praise the Dalai Lama, that is their freedom of association.

    By I, I mean in my country that wouldn't be allowed, due to our constitution. Neither would it be allowed in the US, or in India.

    All I am trying to say is that India has its rules, and they have a reason to exist. Freedom of religion has existed in US for centuries (literally). In India, however, it has existed for Millenia. That is just something to take into consideration.
  • edited February 2010
    that is exactly what its about. The practice has always been about the suppression of the other three lineages of Tibetan Buddhism and the overt claim that the Fifth Dalai Lama was a false Dalai Lama because he practiced within the Nyingma and Gelug lineages. The person who became the spirit known as DS actually was another candidate supported by political Gelugpa fundamentalists who wanted to see the other lineages suppressed if not eradicated completely.
    The practice was revived by Pabonkha in the early 1900's and he attempted to alter the history of the practice and change the scriptures in order to fit it in. For this he was reprimanded by the 13th Dalai Lama.
    The current Dalai Lama looked into the history of this practice after he went into exile and started using a non-sectarian approach to the lineages in order to foster their preservation. Upon realizing the hostility in the history of the practice HHDL asked people to give it up as he himself did.
    In the early 20th century a certain high profile Gelugpa who was in direct conflict with the 13th Dalai Lama went so far in his attempts to annihilate the other lineages of Tibetan Buddhism as to write letters to Chinese generals asking them to crack down on Kham, where the Sakya, Nyingma, and Kagyu schools were thriving. These letters are currently being translated into English.
    The use of DS practice was a major support in these attempts to erradicate the influence of the other lineages in Tibet and this was and is unacceptable in the current exile situation.

    Sectarianism arises when one tradition imposes its views on other traditions. I know that Shugden practitioners respect the freedom of others to practice according to their wishes. It is the Dalai Lama who is acting in a sectarian way by using the instruments of state power to enforce others to practice according to his view.

    Sectarianism can also be seen in the exclusive attitude of the Dalai Lama who allows anyone in the world, Buddhist or non-Buddhist, to attend his teachings except those who pray to Dorje Shugden.

    Gelugpa followers rely upon Dorje Shugden as a Dharma Protector of the Gelug sect or tradition of Je Tsongkhapa, but that doesn't mean it is a sectarian practice. Dorje Shugden practitioners only wish for the freedom to follow their tradition in peace and there is no evidence that they have been intolerant to any other tradition. To say the practice is sectarian is again to slander many of the greatest upholders of the Buddhist teachings in the past three centuries, including the Dalai Lama's own teacher Trijang Rinpoche.

    Numerous statements have been made by current Dorje Shugden practitioners to say that they welcome and respect all traditions and the Dalai Lama has not provided any evidence to indicate that this is not the case. According to the Dalai Lama's translator in the 1990s, Helmut Gassner: "When during an Anti-Dorje Shugden information meeting in Switzerland the Dalai Lama's Private Secretary sketched the picture of three hundred years of trouble with these Dorje Shugden people, someone asked him to mention some of the incidents that had occurred during that time. He was unable to come up with even one."

    Also, the ritual aspects of Dorje Shugden practice are even taken from the Sakya tradition, where it was practiced widely until the 20th century. The Dalai Lama says that Dorje Shugden is against the Nyingma tradition, yet as mentioned above Dorje Shugden practice was also practiced by some Nyingma followers, who were also put under the pressure of the ban to give up the practice, as mentioned in Mumford's book.ffice:office" /><O:p></O:p>
    Like any other Tibetan Buddhist, one should practise their own Dharma given by the great masters of their tradition, without causing any trouble to any other fellow Dharma practitioner or “mixing” tradition and getting confused and get no ATTAINMENTS (which is different from knowledge). <O:p></O:p>
    After Tibetans came into exile about 1500 Tibetan monks and lamas of all four Tibetan traditions lived together in a place called Buxaduar in West Bengal in the years from 1960 till 1968. Among the Gelug- and Sakya-monks the majority were practitioners of Dorje Shugden. They lived harmoniously without any problems or tensions with monks from Nyingma and Kagyu-traditions, all sharing the same houses, same food and same prayer gatherings in a true sense of brotherhood.

    In general, the relations between the four Tibetan Buddhist schools, in comparison to many other religious groups in the world, is very wholesome and harmonious.

    Recently, in South India in Bylakuppe, when the monks of Sera Mey Pomra Kamtsen were recently expelled from the rest of the Sera monastery as well as Tibetan society as a whole by means of signature campaigns, due to their refusal to renounce their faith in Dorje Shugden. In the course of events some Tibetan groups in the settlements completely denied these new outcasts every access to Tibetan shops, the monastery's clinic, as well as its food supplies and distribution. With no nearby source left for purchasing daily living necessities, the Tibetan Camp No.4, headed by His Eminence Penor Rinpoche, openly welcomed the monks of Pomra Kamtsen to purchase their living-necessities such as milk and so on from the camp's shops and outlets. Camp No.4 is populated by a majority of Nyingmapas, who had no hesitation to help Gelugpas worshipping Dorje Shugden. There is solidarity of Dharma-practitioners far beyond the boundaries of schools, and we as Buddhist should respect other lineages but practise and uphold our own tradition and practice. <O:p></O:p>
    <O:p></O:p>
  • edited February 2010
    Dear friends in Dharma,

    I would like to share some info:

    HIS HOLINESS IS THE SPIRITUAL LEADER FOR ALL TRADITION

    His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, is both the head of state and the spiritual leader of Tibet.
    Source: http://www.dalailama.com/biography/a-brief-biography

    THE HEAD OF EACH TRADITION
    The four traditions each has their head, e.g. Karmapa is the head of the Karma Kagyu, Sakya Trizin is the head of Sakya.

    There was never a single "head of the lineage" for Nyingma, the lamas who have served in this role are among the most universally highly regarded. They are:

    - Dudjom Rinpoche (c. 1904–1987), served from the 1960s until his death.
    - Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche (c. 1910–1991), served from 1987 until his death.
    - Penor (Pema Norbu) Rinpoche served from 1991 until retirement in 2003.
    - Mindroling Trichen Rinpoche (c. 1930–2008), served from 2003 until his death. His successor is yet to be named.

    Popular contemporary Nyingma teachers include Kyabje Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, filmmaker Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche (very famous!), Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche, Tarthang Tulku Rinpoche, Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo, Sogyal Rinpoche, Dungsey Garab Dorje Rinpoche and many more.

    HEAD OF GELUGPA IS THE GADEN TRIPA
    For Gelugpa, the head is the Ganden Tripa and not the Dalai Lama like what many people think. (For more info re how a Gaden Tripa is selected, please google Ganden Tripa)<O:p</O:p

    THE EX-GADEN TRIPA IS OFFICIALLY A SHUGDEN PRACTITIONER BY JOINING SHAR GADEN
    The term of office for the current Gaden Tripa has just finished. He has successfully finished his term. He has the title now of His Holiness Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal. He primarily resides in France although he has a ladrang in Gaden Shartse, Nepal and Yangthing, Tibet.

    Gaden Trisur Rinpoche belongs to the Dokhang Khangtsen house of Gaden Shartse Monastery formerly. He studied and recieved his geshe degree in Gaden Shartse. Later he became Gaden Tripa.

    Gaden Trisur Rinpoche has recently officially left Gaden Shartse Monastery and joined SHAR GADEN MONASTERY similar with other elite lamas such as Trijang Rinpoche and Dromo Geshe Rinpoche recently. Gaden Trisur’s household (ladrang) all together with HH Gaden Trisur Rinpoche have joined Shar Gaden Monastery.

    *SHAR GADEN MONASTERY is a community of Dorje Shugden practitioners of many Tulkus, Geshes, senior practitioners and monks who had no choice but to sadly leave their respective monasteries out of respect for His Holiness Dalai Lama's decree. http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=111

    It is a stunning and ’shocking’ move as Gaden Trisur Rinpoche is a very high ranking Lama within the Gelug Heirachy. In Sera, Gaden, Drepung, Tashilungpo, Gyuto and Gyurme Monasteries take a fake oath as they put it to temporarily quiet down the Tibetan Government and their unjust/undemocratic persecution of Dorje Shugden devotees.

    They stand up in front of the congregation(if they don’t, then expulsion from the Monastery) and read the words that ’swear’ they abandon Dorje Shugden and will not be associated with Dorje Shugden followers in any manner. The monks say they just read the words and do not feel anything from their heart. It is pure persecution. Many monks dare not say or speak out against the Tibetan government, but they are in that opinion. With Gaden Trisur’s recent move, it will give strength to many who are persecuted up till today.

    SECTARIAN PROTECTOR?
    In the Nyingma tradition, Ekajati is the principal protector for the “Revealed Treasure” traditions. So can we say practitioners of Ekajati is encouraging sectarianism? Ekajati is a Buddha and Buddha has no tradition.


    For example, Guru Rinpoche is closely related to Nyingma tradition, so when we practice Guru Rinpoche strongly, are we sectarian? Do take time to think about these arguments that are not very true.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited February 2010
    .
    The fact that I disagree with the people that call him a living Buddha AND with the people that worship DS gives me the right to an opinion. "OK folks, as far as I am concerned, the Dalai Lama is a nice guy, but for me the tulku system is tibetan culture, and so is spirit worship". That is my freedom of speech. I can also stop both parties from coming to my house "Hey you are gonna make a mess with your butter lamps and flowers and you are gonna wake up the neighborhood at 4 am with your chanting, go do your thing somewhere else". That is my right to property.

    I cannot demand them to forsake their beliefs. That is their freedom of thought, their religious freedom. I cannot stop them from using the streets near my house, that is their freedom of movement. I cannot stop them from getting together to worship DS or getting together to praise the Dalai Lama, that is their freedom of association..
    But with all due respect Nameless, you're not the spiritual leader of these people.
  • edited February 2010
    pathseeker wrote: »
    <o>
    <o>:pSECTARIAN PROTECTOR? </o>:p
    In the Nyingma tradition, Ekajati is the principal protector for the “Revealed Treasure” traditions. So can we say practitioners of Ekajati is encouraging sectarianism? Ekajati is a Buddha and Buddha has no tradition.


    For example, Guru Rinpoche is closely related to Nyingma tradition, so when we practice Guru Rinpoche strongly, are we sectarian? Do take time to think about these arguments that are not very true.

    No. Comparing Ekajati to DS would be absurd. Same with Guru Rinpoche.
    DS is practiced and has always been practiced as a negative response to non-sectarianism including the Rime tradition. DS came into play as a response to the 5th Dalai Lama, who was a non-sectarian Dalai Lama and because of this some sectarian Gelugpa's tried to have him removed. DS was born from this sectarian moment.
    Ekajati and Guru Rinpoche have never and will never be used in this fashion. Anyone can rely on Ekajati and Guru Rinpoche. The same is most certainly not true for DS.
    </o>
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Anyone can rely on Ekajati

    I looove her looks, like a magnificent one breasted saggy witch-she-devil from hell.

    padmadsat_f2.jpg
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    This shows what is happening in the words of mostly lay Tibetans. I have to say the documentary is tendentious, though, so it might be all a lie. Who knows. Actually the dozens of testimonies on film on youtube might be a lie. The "Prime Minister" of the Dalai Lama saying ti is right to ban these people from shops is also made up right? Or the Dalai Lama saying these people should be banned from monasteries and that they are liars, killers and agressors. Please...spare me...

    <object width="425" height="344">


    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Aboblx-0zAs&hl=en_US&fs=1&&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    This shows what is happening in the words of mostly lay Tibetans. I have to say the documentary is tendentious, though, so it might be all a lie. Who knows. Actually the dozens of testimonies on film on youtube might be a lie. The "Prime Minister" of the Dalai Lama saying ti is right to ban these people from shops is also made up right? Or the Dalai Lama saying these people should be banned from monasteries and that they are liars, killers and agressors. Please...spare me...
    That documentary is pretty damning. Unfortunately, although I watched all three parts, I didn't hear a government official saying that it was right to ban people from shops, nor did the DL say that DS worshippers were liars, killers, and aggressors. Maybe you got that from another source?
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Yes I did RenGalskap, from an Al-Jazeera report on the situation I think.

    <object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CdTnEnBsneM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CdTnEnBsneM&hl=en_US&fs=1&&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    It seems to me to be a cultural issue in which we do not need to involve ourselves.
  • edited February 2010
    Citta wrote: »
    It seems to me to be a cultural issue in which we do not need to involve ourselves.
    its a cultural and historical issue that is being manipulated by certain elements who are opposed to the non-sectarian policies of HHDL.
    It is non of our business unless the practice in question directly targets us as individuals and our teachers.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I dont usually drink tea with butter and soda cystals. I dont often eat roasted barley flour. My teachers did/do. Some elements of cultural tradition and folk belief are unlikely to make the transition into western culture. In my view this issue is one of folk belief, important in what it represents to the indigenous Tibetans, but not to be taken literally.
  • edited February 2010
    Citta wrote: »
    I dont usually drink tea with butter and soda cystals. I dont often eat roasted barley flour. My teachers did/do. Some elements of cultural tradition and folk belief are unlikely to make the transition into western culture. In my view this issue is one of folk belief, important in what it represents to the indigenous Tibetans, but not to be taken literally.
    many Tibetans who have been doing this practice dont want to give it up because they are afraid that DS will punish them if they do. This is most certainly a folk belief and it is quite unfortunate that it is being manipulated by certain parties.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I agree entirely about the manipulation, in either direction. Personally I try to distance myself from a view which suggests that I share a literal view of the nature of DS. That is not an implied criticism of anyone elses view.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I agree that most of pathseeker's posts are irrelevant to anything that I need to concern myself about. On the other hand, threatening people with violence, destroying their houses and possessions, denying them the right to buy goods and services that they need to survive, and driving them out of the community are all human rights violations. The issue is not Dorje Shugden, or local folk rituals. The issue is how certain people are being treated by people who exercise power in their community. The documentaries that have been posted contain evidence of human rights violations. If that is true, it can't be dismissed by calling it a cultural matter.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I certainly wouldnt advocate dimissing human rights violations on any pretext. My point was that if we see this as an issue around real or imagined spirit worship, the human dimension in all its complexity is in danger of being lost.
    Stripped even if only for the sake of discussion, of its " supernatural " dimension some very worrying elements of this sorry saga emerge. To do with power broking, and social control. Always major components in the culture of old Tibet.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Citta wrote: »
    To do with power broking, and social control. Always major components in the culture of old Tibet.
    Or any other society. :-)
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I certainly wouldnt advocate dimissing human rights violations on any pretext. My point was that if we see this as an issue around real or imagined spirit worship, the human dimension in all its complexity is in danger of being lost.
    I agree that most of pathseeker's posts are irrelevant to anything that I need to concern myself about. On the other hand, threatening people with violence, destroying their houses and possessions, denying them the right to buy goods and services that they need to survive, and driving them out of the community are all human rights violations. The issue is not Dorje Shugden, or local folk rituals.
    I guess the three of us agree with each other then :-)
    its a cultural and historical issue that is being manipulated by certain elements who are opposed to the non-sectarian policies of HHDL.
    If I were the Dalai Lama I would also want everybody under the same umbrella. I bet Obama wished everybody would agree with his ideas too. That is the dream of every political leader. It serves a social function too, it keeps people together, even if against their will.

    Dalai Lama is the same thing as a Iman, the infallible successor of Muhammad, belonging to his family and endowed with infallibility and supernatural knowledge. He is doing (perhaps less) what Ayatollah Khomeini, who was called Imam by his people, did to the Baha'i faith (and many others).

    Khomeini had a power that was IMMENSE compared to what the Dalai Lama possess, so he actually would demand people to be killed even outside Iran. When he rose to power, he actually said the Bahai's were a political faction, harmful and would not be accepted. Sounds a lot like old Dalai saying they are liars, murderers and aggressors.

    The difference between Khomeini and Dalai Lama is that the previous had the balls to admit what he was doing, by clearly stating there was no such thing as religious freedom.

    If you people wanna bow down to a watered down Ayatollah suit yourselves. Khomeini at least spoke his mind loud and clear. BTW, spiritual leader, Brigid? He is not even the head of any of the schools of Buddhism.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    Or any other society. :-)

    True... true, but most societies dont have quite so much romanticism projected onto them. ;)
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    The difference between Khomeini and Dalai Lama is that the previous had the balls to admit what he was doing, by clearly stating there was no such thing as religious freedom.
    I prefer to think of the difference as power corrupting, and absolute power corrupting absolutely. Khomeini had absolute power, and the DL doesn't.
    Citta wrote: »
    True... true, but most societies dont have quite so much romanticism projected onto them. ;)
    My introduction to the Shangrala myth was "Lost Horizontally" (The Goon Show), so I tend to project something other than romanticism. ;-)
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Bloodnock!
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Citta wrote: »
    Bloodnock!
    That's Major Bloodnock of the third Disgusting Fusiliers!
  • edited February 2010
    I guess the three of us agree with each other then :-)

    If I were the Dalai Lama I would also want everybody under the same umbrella. I bet Obama wished everybody would agree with his ideas too. That is the dream of every political leader. It serves a social function too, it keeps people together, even if against their will.

    Dalai Lama is the same thing as a Iman, the infallible successor of Muhammad, belonging to his family and endowed with infallibility and supernatural knowledge. He is doing (perhaps less) what Ayatollah Khomeini, who was called Imam by his people, did to the Baha'i faith (and many others).

    Khomeini had a power that was IMMENSE compared to what the Dalai Lama possess, so he actually would demand people to be killed even outside Iran. When he rose to power, he actually said the Bahai's were a political faction, harmful and would not be accepted. Sounds a lot like old Dalai saying they are liars, murderers and aggressors.

    The difference between Khomeini and Dalai Lama is that the previous had the balls to admit what he was doing, by clearly stating there was no such thing as religious freedom.

    If you people wanna bow down to a watered down Ayatollah suit yourselves. Khomeini at least spoke his mind loud and clear. BTW, spiritual leader, Brigid? He is not even the head of any of the schools of Buddhism.
    The Dalai Lama isnt saying those things. All the Dalai Lama has done is ask people to stop doing this practice and if they are currently doing it, not to attend his teaching events.
    you're way off.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    The Dalai Lama isnt saying those things. All the Dalai Lama has done is ask people to stop doing this practice and if they are currently doing it, not to attend his teaching events.
    you're way off.
    Dude...it is recorded...he saying it...with his own very lips. :-[ He even says that just asking them to stop is not enough IN ENGLISH, so one can't even say it was mistranslated.

    If you can't accept proof from the lips of the Dalai Lama himself then I don't know what else to say.

    I am not going into a history speech, at least for the moment, but the Dalai Lama institution was founded by a Mongolian prince (Dalai is not even a Tibetan word) because there were a bunch of those princes fighting for power and he needed something extra to legitimize himself.

    The reason the princes were fighting is because the only criteria to see who would be the successor of the Empire was being related to Genghis Kahn. The 'Dalai Lama' told the people, who by the way worshiped the spirits of their ancestors and specially Genghis Kahn, that this prince was the reincarnation of Kublai Kahn (sorry I don't know if the names are spelled correctly), who was the grandson of GK and not some distant relative. In return this price recognized him (or the Dalai Lama recognized himself) as the reincarnation of Kublai Kahn's spiritual adviser. After that, people from Mongolia were happy to serve the so called adviser for their dead king concentrate power in Tibet.

    After that he was STILL not the big shot of Tibet. A major fight broke out between political factions that culminated in the Unification of Tibet, and Gushi Khan, who won the dispute, legitimized himself the same way the former mongolian prince did: by giving power to the Dalai Lama as the highest political authority of Tibet.

    After that ANOTHER Mongolian dude tried to appoint another Dalai Lama as a means to establish his power.

    Later on Tibet apparently got a brief period of independence from other empires, and the Monasteries appointed the Dalai Lamas. But then again it was the dominating aristocracy enthroning one of their own.

    After he dies China will probably appoint one with the same intention, that is why he said he wouldn't be born inside Tibet if it was ruled by the Chinese.
  • edited February 2010
    Dude...it is recorded...he saying it...with his own very lips. :-[ He even says that just asking them to stop is not enough IN ENGLISH, so one can't even say it was mistranslated.

    If you can't accept proof from the lips of the Dalai Lama himself then I don't know what else to say.
    Well, I havent heard him say that but historically those statements are accurate. Lobsang Gyatso was murdered by DS practitioners a few years ago and the statistics that they give are hugely fabricated, and their history of the practice can in no way be supported by facts.
    People can believe whatever they want but until they start actually looking into the history and talking to people with an academic background in the history of Tibet they are going to take the misinformation that is on the web as a foundation of their views.
    People need to look into the real history and stop reading wikipedia pages and other unreliable sources when it comes to this discussion.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    In Tibet, spiritual rulership equals political power. Dorje Shugden defies that because he originated from opponents of the so called fifth Dalai Lama.

    In fact, a candidate for the position of the fourth Dalai Lama, who was opponent to the fifth, was murdered. After that the fifth banned the search for his reincarnation. It didn't work out so well because eventually people started saying he was a dharma protector, the so called Dorje Shugden.

    The fifth, very smart, stated that after some exorcisms Dorje Shugden, who was in previous life an enemy and whose remains he ordered to be throw in the river, was now on his side, as a Dharma Protector (smart move). The problem is, as he is said to protect the teachings from degenerating and has an oracle, anybody who opposes the Dalai Lama can simply spread Shugden and say that his oracle told them this Dalai Lama is corrupting the teachings.

    Tulkus are the way Tibetans mantain rulership in a Theocratic society. It is pretty obvious they didn't have open elections. They just stated this person is the reincarnated lama what not and he is now also entitled to Enthronement (yeah, tulkus get enthroned). Not by coincidence, the western tulkus that were nominated by Penor Rinpoche were a millionaire actor and a new age charismatic leader who just happened to be giving him money to support 70 something monks.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    People can believe whatever they want but until they start actually looking into the history and talking to people with an academic background in the history of Tibet they are going to take the misinformation that is on the web as a foundation of their views.

    Honey a person can have ten PhD's on Tibetan History. That doesn't mean they don't have an agenda.
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