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This is such a hot-button topic. And, yes, some people sure whip out the generalizations and assumptions when it comes up.
I always believed that you're the only person you ought to be concerned with. Why try to speak for someone else?
Here's why my husband and I have a six-month-old:
We both love kids. My husband taught middle school for six years. I worked as a children's page in a library. After we'd been married for ten years and were financially secure, we started trying to conceive. We felt we had a good situation in which to raise a child. We had thought about adoption, but husband felt a biological push for his own.
It didn't happen for us. We kept an eye on the DHS website for a while, but then I decided to go back to school. I also went through a very transformational time spiritually. Most of my family got sick and died. I changed a lot. Eventually I stopped feeling any attachment to raising kids. I was content in my life and comfortable in my own skin at last.
THEN I got pregnant. Against all odds. At first I was ambivalent about the pregnancy. So why did I have her?
She was already in existence.
There is no way I could have aborted her. Killed her.
My husband wanted her. Very much so.
This child was to be a breath of renewal through our extended family.
There is no way ... even with all the trials I've gone through ... that I would ever give up my experience of life. It has been full of beauty and love and meaning. I intend to do my best to allow/help my daughter to have the same. I stay at home with her. Every day is a teaching opportunity.
She owes me absolutely nothing, but every day I'm rewarded with her joy and new eyes. She makes me a better person, makes me want to change the world for the better. She has cracked open my heart and made me much more compassionate. I know there will most likely be trying times, but I trust that the dance of life will unfold exactly as it should.
Having children and forcing "family values" really gets under other peoples skin, and of course uses up resources. But then again there are plenty of "child free" people around here who consume like a whole African village, and seem worry about themselves alot.
Our child was not planned, but if we had waited for the right time it would never have come. I do not see anything virtuous about having children, but at the risk of incurring the wrath of some, there is something to being a parent that I otherwise would never have known, something very virtuous, and wonderful.
Reproduction is a biological imperative. From life's beginning as single celled organism to complex ones. Humans are the only one given the choice to decide whether to have an offspring or not. As far as I know no other living being does this.
I don't see a world full of enlightened people in general.
Agreed. I interact with a lot of women and men at work; if one gender or the other has embraced ethics, concentration and wisdom more than the other, it's certainly beyond my ability to determine.
I don't think having children is a biological need, it's more conditioned. Eating, drinking, breathing.. pooping etc. that's all what the body does. As far as getting your penis up monkey mind to makes up some weird concept about how the other gender looks good etc ass, tits.. without the concepts I don't think all this pointlessness, although peaceful pointlessness after you've "suffered" long enough, would go on.
People have children because they experience the joy of creating life and the magical experience of feeling true unconditional love on a level that only a child can bring into their life!
Having children gives you the opportunity to put the needs of another ahead of your own. Doesn't always work that way, but that's the way it should work.
Most people mean to be good parents, but they parent by "default" ... they think "I didn't have this when I was a kid, so I'm going to make sure my kid gets that now", or "my parents did XYZ and it was awful, so I'm never going to do that to my kid." Intentions are good, but results are usually poor.
A good parent prepares the child to live in the world as a self-supporting person, and one who can think with their mind and care with their heart. The child has to learn to delay gratification, how to apply themselves to accomplish a goal, how to share their toys, and how to develop empathy for others. To do anything less is to harm your child's future happiness.
A good parent gives their love, but also raises the child to understand that certain behaviors are expected (for the good of the child's future life, for the good of society).
A good parent protects their child from harm, but not does not shield them from the consequences of bad behavior, because this is how a child learns how to make good choices.
A good parent observes their child, sees the skills they need to learn (physical or psychological), and sets up situations where the child can learn these skills, silently standing behind to "catch them" if they "fall".
A good parent speaks with honesty to their children and alway has a heart ready to listen when the child needs it. They have rules and standards that are enforced, but they never use fear, intimidation or belittlement to get compliance.
And once that child is grown and out on their own, a good parent understands that they must accept their adult child's choices ... because otherwise they will lose the relationship.
Being a good parent requires service on a personal, one-to-one scale that nothing else (that I can think of) supplies.
Humans are the only one given the choice to decide whether to have an offspring or not....
Are you sure? You appear to be asserting a doctrine of free-will and denying the anusaya.
"A first beginning of the craving of existence cannot be conceived, (of which it can be said), 'Before that, there was no craving for existence and it came to be after that.' Though this is so, monks, yet a specific condition for craving for existence can be conceived. Craving for existence, too, has its nutriment, I declare; and it is not without a nutriment. And what is the nutriment of craving for existence? 'Ignorance,' should be the answer. But ignorance, too, has its nutriment; it is not without a nutriment. And what is the nutriment of ignorance? 'The five hindrances,' should be the answer.
I don't see a world full of enlightened people in general.
By natural wisdom & reason, I was not referring to the transcendental wisdom of enlightenment (lokuttara dhamma). I was inferring a mundane wisdom (lokiya dhamma).
Also, I said 'natural' or innate, which is something easily obscured.
It is not foreign to the Buddha-Dharma to align wisdom with the female.
I don't think having children is a biological need, it's more conditioned...
Yes, the population explosion is one of the clearest examples in the world of karma powering samsara. People learn to have kids because it's what their parents did. World views which carefully consider the costs and merits of having kids are at a disadvantage, because the people holding them tend not to have kids to pass that world view onto. (Federica seems to be an exception to this, but seems to have given careful consideration to the matter after the fact. )
Every single reason for having children that I have ever heard is either narcissistic or delusional.
Why have children?
Here's a super outside the box theory;
Humans, like plants and animals, rocks and water, are the environment. Don't think of us as separate..so let's ask,
Why does the environment produce more* environment?
Probably like trees and leaves, etc it's to sustain an ecosystem, it's to change and evolve...
I don't know why the universe started or has always been, what's its plan? But since long ago a math has been put forward and we follow it.
There are delusional reasons for both having children and not having children. There are narcissistic reasons for both. Child free people should consider this though. Those who are not parents have only that experience, of not being a parent. People who are parents have the experience of not being a parent and the experience of being a parent. So they are not just Kid people. They are people who have had both experiences, and therefore can compare. Choosing to be a parent or not is neither here nor there, but when parents talk about the qualities of parenting that are wholesome and profound, dismissing it when you have never been one is just silly.
Got pregnant. Unplanned. The sponge. Carry or abort? We were a stable, married, secure couple. What would be the narcissistic choice? What would be sacrificed for what?
Parenthood comes in different ways, under different circumstances.
Every single reason for having children that I have ever heard is either narcissistic or delusional.
The biggest delusion comes from birth control.
Only 40 years ago, the human race developed the birth control pill and the biggest delusion is thinking of sterilized human beings as something normal.
For the other 1000's of years of the human race, there has been no universal birth control.
Whilst I am not advertising for procreation or criticising birth control, if you are having sex then you are behaving in the same way as those you regard as narcissistic or delusional.
People have children because they are having sex.
The sterilized human beings are just as infatuated as the unsterilized ones.
Do we think nature makes sexual pleasurable for the sake of pleasure?
BTW: Of course, many human beings have children in a more conscious way. They want to love, give & share.
It doesn't make any sense to stereotype women and men into two categories as women are such and such and men are such and such. In reality, individuals differ from one another and we are all human.
I am also yet to see a couple who makes a baby for reasons which are non-self centric. I am not saying making a baby is wrong but most of the time it amounts to self interests. I am yet to find someone who makes a baby "so that we are giving another sentient being a chance to practice Dhamma and end suffering".
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2010
This is not a thread about status or questioned equality within a marriage.
This is a thread on "why do people have children?"
Please keep top the topic, and if you wish to discuss this further, start another thread.
Thank you.
I personally find it a ridiculous premise that to adopt children, you have to undertake rigorous tests, be put to intense scrutiny and have every aspect of your living, examined, criticised, assessed, questioned, torn to shreds and exhaustively researched, before somebody in an assumed position of authority on the subject, decides whether you are fit to be adoptive parents or not.
Heck, you go to an animal rescue centre to adopt an animal, and the matter is treated in very much the same way!
You're asked all manner of questions, your home is visited, and in some cases, your neighbours are approached for opinion, too.
Yet, seek to become pregnant, and do any such measures take place?
Nope.
Many many millions of people opt to have children of their own volition.
Do they all automatically qualify to be good parents....?
Er....... that's a hard one......:rolleyes:
Some folks aren't fit to be parents.
And unfortunately, I've met a few too many.
Every single reason for having children that I have ever heard is either narcissistic or delusional.
Hmm I never thought of myself as narcissistic. I was never meant to have children so I was one of those who never planned a child either. My cancer and ongoing treatment made me infertile - supposedly.
When I got pregnant I was scared and excited. I can't have anymore children, had to have a hysterectomy so I have one daughter whom I adore.
Raising her hasn't been a walk in the park and for the first 18 months I would question whether or not I had been very wise in becoming a parent. However, I find that my daughter has been my greatest teacher.
Rather than being narcissistic, I consider myself blessed. But perhaps that IS narcissistic?
I developed an intense and overwhelming desire to have a child at around the age of 18 that lasted until I had my son at 24. After five years of therapy I now understand that what was driving that desire was emotion and my own early childhood experiences. My son is now 20 and starting his independent life.
I know that I am a different person and have learnt a tremendous amount about myself and others as a result of being a mother. I also relate differently to my students, am less selfish and have a greater capacity for compassion (imo).
I may have developed those things without the experience of motherhood - who knows? I do know that being a mother has enriched my life in ways that I could not have imagined (selfish I know!) and that there is another thoughtful, sensitive and loving human being in the world - which is not a bad thing.
Having a child is like dropping another pebble into the pond - none of us know where the waves will end...
I would argue that the births of many people have reduced suffering. It would have been unfortunate for many had the Buddha's mother regarded procreation as unwholesome. Hitler, on the other hand.... But those are the extremes. Our daily lives are full of folks who soften the blows. Nurses, firefighters, monks, foster parents, therapists, etc. I wouldn't begrudge the life of anyone who might seek to do good works in this world.
Of course we're not omniscient. We don't know how a child might affect the balance. When I had my child I was hopeful that she would one day look at the world colored by my lessons on compassion and choose to spread some goodwill herself.
This issue is not black and white. There are no absolutes. Each situation is different. To say all birth is "unwholesome" and is nothing but more suffering is, I think, to be blind to diversity and how Dharma and skillful works alter the world we live in.
Boy the joke is on them. Kids stay home for a long long time these days. It is more like having someone to take care of when they are old.
In most societies and ages families were a continuous, cohesive unit including grandparents, parents, children - as many generations as happened to exist - living together or very close by. The idea that everyone has to be an individual unit with their entire own little world, their car, their house, their property, is a modern idea. In a way it is a kind of a sickness IMO since it results in using more resources than are necessary, more scarcity, more hunger, more egocentricity, more suffering.
I don't think the Buddha wanted humanity to go extinct. When I hear people act like that is a natural Buddhist idea I think it probably gives non-Buddhists the wrong idea. Anyway, it won't work. We're not the only sentient species, and if we were, another one would evolve eventually anyway. So the idea of not having children to 'end samsara' or whatever some people might think is kind of foolish. The best that we can do is maintain a healthy society and the dharma so that the beings that do exist can continue to attain enlightenment. If all sentient species were gone suffering would still exist, we would still exist, but it would actually be worse because no one could attain enlightenment. Everyone would be trapped here as non-sentient animals until another sentient species evolved.
What TheFound said about people being like leaves on a tree was insightful. It reminds me of what Alan Watts said about the earth "peopling" like an apple tree "apples". In creating family trees, we're following a common pattern in nature.
I think the urge to procreate is very biological. Before we are spiritual or thinking creatures, we're mammals. We can't discount the power of biology. We don't even understand many of the workings within our own bodies. Oxytocin is called the "mothering hormone" for a reason. After I had my daughter I was astounded by the wash of hormones and chemicals that affected my brain and behavior. Males are also affected ... my husband experienced it as well.
And you don't have to be related to be affected. When I handed my daughter to my step-brother (who has two children of his own), he took a deep sniff of the top of her head and said, "Mmmmm! New baby head!" Newborns give off that hormonal fragrance. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the drive behind many women's biological clocks.
Nature's no dummy. She programs us for the survival of the species.
If you're not driven in these ways, perhaps there was some event in your life or environment which altered your chemistry. Maybe it was even your thinking. Mind affects body.
Our son was born at 27 weeks and has neurlogical and developmental challenges that have required intervention since day one. This has taken time, energy, and resources that have meant giving up what we felt like, and wanted, over and over again. It has meant doing without so much of the lifestyle we see childfree folks around us living, all the time so preoccupied with their own suffering asses, and getting brittle with age over disruptions in their neat little universes. We have asked ourselves what on on earth we did before, when we were free to do our own thing, and we just laugh because it was so full of "Me and my needs". Being a parent has been about learning unconditional love, and putting the needs of another human being before our own comfort and self centered desires.. Then consider that success in parenting is measured by every little act of seperation and individuation he makes. The more he moves toward being independent of us and self reliant, the more joy we feel for him. If you love something let it go. That is good parenting. Give everything you have then let go. Nothing can simulate this. Everybody needs a good parent, denegrating parenting is ridiculous.
That's not a reason for having kids, that's an accident. I was not saying parenthood is by its very nature narcissistic or delusional. I was saying that all the reasons I've heard for having kids are.
Whilst I am not advertising for procreation or criticising birth control, if you are having sex then you are behaving in the same way as those you regard as narcissistic or delusional.
People have children because they are having sex.
Exactly. This is the real reason most children are born.
Yes, I have sex. Yes, there is narcissism and delusion involved.
That's not a reason for having kids, that's an accident. I was not saying parenthood is by its very nature narcissistic or delusional. I was saying that all the reasons I've heard for having kids are.
Oh. O.k. Your right. They frequently are.
................still, it was nice get that rant of the chest .
Our son was born at 27 weeks and has neurlogical and developmental challenges that have required intervention since day one. This has taken time, energy, and resources that have meant giving up what we felt like, and wanted, over and over again. It has meant doing without so much of the lifestyle we see childfree folks around us living, all the time so preoccupied with their own suffering asses, and getting brittle with age over disruptions in their neat little universes. We have asked ourselves what on on earth we did before, when we were free to do our own thing, and we just laugh because it was so full of "Me and my needs". Being a parent has been about learning unconditional love, and putting the needs of another human being before our own comfort and self centered desires.. Then consider that success in parenting is measured by every little act of seperation and individuation he makes. The more he moves toward being independent of us and self reliant, the more joy we feel for him. If you love something let it go. That is good parenting. Give everything you have then let go. Nothing can simulate this. Everybody needs a good parent, denegrating parenting is ridiculous.
Ok. theres my exhausted parent rant
I hold most parents in high esteem. It's hard work. It can be a bodhisattva path. Thsoe of us who aren't parents may be just as concerned for the kind regard of you and your children.
I think separating people into categories is not always skillful.
Exactly. This is the real reason most children are born.
Yes, I have sex. Yes, there is narcissism and delusion involved.
Its another thread perhaps, but sex doesn't necessarily mean narcissism and delusion. Maybe for Bhikku, but for everyone else there is wholesome and unwholesome sex.
I hold most parents in high esteem. It's hard work. It's too bad you don't have a similar kind heart to those of us who aren't parents and who are also interested in the well being of you and your children.
Hi sky dancer. It was a rant, an expression of fatigue and frustration with some of the attitudes dispalyed toward parenting. It was one sided and exagerated in its characterization of non-parents. You have all my respect.:)
I do find some of the attitudes around having children baffling. We were all children. It is like the immigrant who wants to end immigration after immigrating, who wants to close the door behind him.
Hi sky dancer. It was a rant, an expression of fatigue and frustration with some of the attitudes toward parenting. It was one sided and exagerated in its characterization of non-parents. You have all my respect.:)
I changed my post because I didn't like how it read after I posted it. You're completely entitled to rant. My bad.
I've been with my partner--now wife, for 25 years. We are lesbian. We considered having children but it would not have been easy or accidental. It would have taken enormous effort t get pregnant. I had ambivalence about just having a sperm donor and was concerned about adopting a baby or child from an out of country orphanage. I examined my motivation continuously. I wondered if I could raise a child without repeating some of my own childhood horrors.
Probably, I ended up thinking about it too much. Now I have children in my life, (work for an after-school program) and find it very satisfying to play a supportive role in a child's life by being a positive adult friend.
Comments
And you said:
Would this be an example of a discursive inference?
I always believed that you're the only person you ought to be concerned with. Why try to speak for someone else?
Here's why my husband and I have a six-month-old:
We both love kids. My husband taught middle school for six years. I worked as a children's page in a library. After we'd been married for ten years and were financially secure, we started trying to conceive. We felt we had a good situation in which to raise a child. We had thought about adoption, but husband felt a biological push for his own.
It didn't happen for us. We kept an eye on the DHS website for a while, but then I decided to go back to school. I also went through a very transformational time spiritually. Most of my family got sick and died. I changed a lot. Eventually I stopped feeling any attachment to raising kids. I was content in my life and comfortable in my own skin at last.
THEN I got pregnant. Against all odds. At first I was ambivalent about the pregnancy. So why did I have her?
She was already in existence.
There is no way I could have aborted her. Killed her.
My husband wanted her. Very much so.
This child was to be a breath of renewal through our extended family.
There is no way ... even with all the trials I've gone through ... that I would ever give up my experience of life. It has been full of beauty and love and meaning. I intend to do my best to allow/help my daughter to have the same. I stay at home with her. Every day is a teaching opportunity.
She owes me absolutely nothing, but every day I'm rewarded with her joy and new eyes. She makes me a better person, makes me want to change the world for the better. She has cracked open my heart and made me much more compassionate. I know there will most likely be trying times, but I trust that the dance of life will unfold exactly as it should.
Rena
Do you see a world full of enlightened males?
Just out of curiosity. Are your a guy DD?
Our child was not planned, but if we had waited for the right time it would never have come. I do not see anything virtuous about having children, but at the risk of incurring the wrath of some, there is something to being a parent that I otherwise would never have known, something very virtuous, and wonderful.
Having children or not having children....
Reproduction is a biological imperative. From life's beginning as single celled organism to complex ones. Humans are the only one given the choice to decide whether to have an offspring or not. As far as I know no other living being does this.
Well it's ok to communicate in common everyday language once in a while you know
I don't see a world full of enlightened people in general.
Agreed. I interact with a lot of women and men at work; if one gender or the other has embraced ethics, concentration and wisdom more than the other, it's certainly beyond my ability to determine.
People have children because they experience the joy of creating life and the magical experience of feeling true unconditional love on a level that only a child can bring into their life!
Metta Steve
Most people mean to be good parents, but they parent by "default" ... they think "I didn't have this when I was a kid, so I'm going to make sure my kid gets that now", or "my parents did XYZ and it was awful, so I'm never going to do that to my kid." Intentions are good, but results are usually poor.
A good parent prepares the child to live in the world as a self-supporting person, and one who can think with their mind and care with their heart. The child has to learn to delay gratification, how to apply themselves to accomplish a goal, how to share their toys, and how to develop empathy for others. To do anything less is to harm your child's future happiness.
A good parent gives their love, but also raises the child to understand that certain behaviors are expected (for the good of the child's future life, for the good of society).
A good parent protects their child from harm, but not does not shield them from the consequences of bad behavior, because this is how a child learns how to make good choices.
A good parent observes their child, sees the skills they need to learn (physical or psychological), and sets up situations where the child can learn these skills, silently standing behind to "catch them" if they "fall".
A good parent speaks with honesty to their children and alway has a heart ready to listen when the child needs it. They have rules and standards that are enforced, but they never use fear, intimidation or belittlement to get compliance.
And once that child is grown and out on their own, a good parent understands that they must accept their adult child's choices ... because otherwise they will lose the relationship.
Being a good parent requires service on a personal, one-to-one scale that nothing else (that I can think of) supplies.
Also, I said 'natural' or innate, which is something easily obscured.
It is not foreign to the Buddha-Dharma to align wisdom with the female.
Ok, ok the "underlying tendency" or "latent tendency" is there but I don't know of any other living things practising birth control.
I hate to bust your bubble, but many animals choose not to procreate as well. Just ask a zoo keeper.
Some animals even reject their own offspring.
Every single reason for having children that I have ever heard is either narcissistic or delusional.
Here's a super outside the box theory;
Humans, like plants and animals, rocks and water, are the environment. Don't think of us as separate..so let's ask,
Why does the environment produce more* environment?
Probably like trees and leaves, etc it's to sustain an ecosystem, it's to change and evolve...
I don't know why the universe started or has always been, what's its plan? But since long ago a math has been put forward and we follow it.
Parenthood comes in different ways, under different circumstances.
It is best for a man to restrain his views on such matters and allow a woman to express her views 100%.
Many men do not realise but many women have fierce loyalty and attachment to their man.
If their man say he does not wish to have children, often the woman will abide by this.
A man should not assert such views but allow the woman to make the decision.
If the woman is 100% clear she does not wish to have children, then the man can concur with her.
Often, a man feels satisfied with his squeeze but often a woman's needs more.
Most of the women I know who agreed with their partners not to have children in their 20's have had children in their 30's.
I also know women who are very clear about no children for them.
Only 40 years ago, the human race developed the birth control pill and the biggest delusion is thinking of sterilized human beings as something normal.
For the other 1000's of years of the human race, there has been no universal birth control.
Whilst I am not advertising for procreation or criticising birth control, if you are having sex then you are behaving in the same way as those you regard as narcissistic or delusional.
People have children because they are having sex.
The sterilized human beings are just as infatuated as the unsterilized ones.
Do we think nature makes sexual pleasurable for the sake of pleasure?
BTW: Of course, many human beings have children in a more conscious way. They want to love, give & share.
The kid could be the next Buddha.
Note: Just a reason rather than a recommendation.
I am also yet to see a couple who makes a baby for reasons which are non-self centric. I am not saying making a baby is wrong but most of the time it amounts to self interests. I am yet to find someone who makes a baby "so that we are giving another sentient being a chance to practice Dhamma and end suffering".
This is a thread on "why do people have children?"
Please keep top the topic, and if you wish to discuss this further, start another thread.
Thank you.
I personally find it a ridiculous premise that to adopt children, you have to undertake rigorous tests, be put to intense scrutiny and have every aspect of your living, examined, criticised, assessed, questioned, torn to shreds and exhaustively researched, before somebody in an assumed position of authority on the subject, decides whether you are fit to be adoptive parents or not.
Heck, you go to an animal rescue centre to adopt an animal, and the matter is treated in very much the same way!
You're asked all manner of questions, your home is visited, and in some cases, your neighbours are approached for opinion, too.
Yet, seek to become pregnant, and do any such measures take place?
Nope.
Many many millions of people opt to have children of their own volition.
Do they all automatically qualify to be good parents....?
Er....... that's a hard one......:rolleyes:
Some folks aren't fit to be parents.
And unfortunately, I've met a few too many.
Hmm I never thought of myself as narcissistic. I was never meant to have children so I was one of those who never planned a child either. My cancer and ongoing treatment made me infertile - supposedly.
When I got pregnant I was scared and excited. I can't have anymore children, had to have a hysterectomy so I have one daughter whom I adore.
Raising her hasn't been a walk in the park and for the first 18 months I would question whether or not I had been very wise in becoming a parent. However, I find that my daughter has been my greatest teacher.
Rather than being narcissistic, I consider myself blessed. But perhaps that IS narcissistic?
It's strange, because I've also come across the view that it's selfish to NOT have children.
It seems we can't win either way.
However, do you think actions motivated by self-interest are necessarily narcissistic?
For example, motivated by self-interest, I had a cup of coffee. Does this make me delusional?
Even if people want to have kids because they believe it will increase their happiness, does this make them narcissistic?
I know that I am a different person and have learnt a tremendous amount about myself and others as a result of being a mother. I also relate differently to my students, am less selfish and have a greater capacity for compassion (imo).
I may have developed those things without the experience of motherhood - who knows? I do know that being a mother has enriched my life in ways that I could not have imagined (selfish I know!) and that there is another thoughtful, sensitive and loving human being in the world - which is not a bad thing.
Having a child is like dropping another pebble into the pond - none of us know where the waves will end...
Of course we're not omniscient. We don't know how a child might affect the balance. When I had my child I was hopeful that she would one day look at the world colored by my lessons on compassion and choose to spread some goodwill herself.
This issue is not black and white. There are no absolutes. Each situation is different. To say all birth is "unwholesome" and is nothing but more suffering is, I think, to be blind to diversity and how Dharma and skillful works alter the world we live in.
In most societies and ages families were a continuous, cohesive unit including grandparents, parents, children - as many generations as happened to exist - living together or very close by. The idea that everyone has to be an individual unit with their entire own little world, their car, their house, their property, is a modern idea. In a way it is a kind of a sickness IMO since it results in using more resources than are necessary, more scarcity, more hunger, more egocentricity, more suffering.
I don't think the Buddha wanted humanity to go extinct. When I hear people act like that is a natural Buddhist idea I think it probably gives non-Buddhists the wrong idea. Anyway, it won't work. We're not the only sentient species, and if we were, another one would evolve eventually anyway. So the idea of not having children to 'end samsara' or whatever some people might think is kind of foolish. The best that we can do is maintain a healthy society and the dharma so that the beings that do exist can continue to attain enlightenment. If all sentient species were gone suffering would still exist, we would still exist, but it would actually be worse because no one could attain enlightenment. Everyone would be trapped here as non-sentient animals until another sentient species evolved.
I think the urge to procreate is very biological. Before we are spiritual or thinking creatures, we're mammals. We can't discount the power of biology. We don't even understand many of the workings within our own bodies. Oxytocin is called the "mothering hormone" for a reason. After I had my daughter I was astounded by the wash of hormones and chemicals that affected my brain and behavior. Males are also affected ... my husband experienced it as well.
And you don't have to be related to be affected. When I handed my daughter to my step-brother (who has two children of his own), he took a deep sniff of the top of her head and said, "Mmmmm! New baby head!" Newborns give off that hormonal fragrance. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the drive behind many women's biological clocks.
Nature's no dummy. She programs us for the survival of the species.
If you're not driven in these ways, perhaps there was some event in your life or environment which altered your chemistry. Maybe it was even your thinking. Mind affects body.
Ok. theres my exhausted parent rant
Yes, I have sex. Yes, there is narcissism and delusion involved.
................still, it was nice get that rant of the chest .
I hold most parents in high esteem. It's hard work. It can be a bodhisattva path. Thsoe of us who aren't parents may be just as concerned for the kind regard of you and your children.
I think separating people into categories is not always skillful.
I do find some of the attitudes around having children baffling. We were all children. It is like the immigrant who wants to end immigration after immigrating, who wants to close the door behind him.
I've been with my partner--now wife, for 25 years. We are lesbian. We considered having children but it would not have been easy or accidental. It would have taken enormous effort t get pregnant. I had ambivalence about just having a sperm donor and was concerned about adopting a baby or child from an out of country orphanage. I examined my motivation continuously. I wondered if I could raise a child without repeating some of my own childhood horrors.
Probably, I ended up thinking about it too much. Now I have children in my life, (work for an after-school program) and find it very satisfying to play a supportive role in a child's life by being a positive adult friend.
(Good for you for sticking with such a difficult situation, though. Such experiences certainly seem to be crucial to maturation.)