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Rebirth: does it matter?
Daozen
Veteran
There's a lot of debate about rebirth. The question is: does it matter?
What i mean is, shouldn't we be more concerned with reducing the suffering of ourselves, and ideally others too, in this life, or even better, this moment?
What happens when we die ... well, we'll find out then, won't we.
I think this thought could save a lot of pointless debate.
What i mean is, shouldn't we be more concerned with reducing the suffering of ourselves, and ideally others too, in this life, or even better, this moment?
What happens when we die ... well, we'll find out then, won't we.
I think this thought could save a lot of pointless debate.
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I am questioning whether it is relevent to our everyday life & practice.
By thinking that this life is all there ever has been, before that nothing, and no matter what, there will be no future birth then all spiritual endeavor is basically meaningless. The Buddha taught that the goal of the holy life is Nibbana, of which the Arahants declare 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' In other words, if there is no life after death, then there is no need for the Noble Eightfold Path, as is the case for the Arahants.
People who hold the wrong view that there is no rebirth will have no motivation to practice the Eightfold Path. Even if they accept that there is suffering, then they will most likely take one of two paths (or a combination of the two): either try to get as much sensual pleasure as possible having not seen the dangers...or kill themselves.
Of course, they might still be moral people, even without believing in rebirth. They might still meditate and try to train their minds, even without rebirth. But, I can't see how they could have a sense of urgency (Samvega) or confidence (Pasada) without rebirth, therefore there is not really going to be much chance of realizing any real fruit.
Here's an article about Samvega and Pasada by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://herenow.org/wwwArticles/samvega.html
(Yes, I know it's not 'a place' but a state of 'Mind'....just being expeditious...)
No matter our number of lives, our LIFE is now.
Having only one life surely makes it all the MORE urgent?
Hi Daozen,
Speculating about rebirth in the future has no relevance to my current practice .
Kind regards,
Dazzle
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We are, in this life, human beings. We might not be so lucky next time. We have access to learning about and practicing the Dhamma - not all humans have this rare and amazing opportunity. Even fewer are those who, having heard the Dhamma, practice rightly and fully penetrate the meaning of it.
Therefore, seeing this lifetime in this framework makes this life that much more important and valuable that we do the right thing now while we have such fortunate circumstances.
If consciousness does not arise in any state after death (i.e. no rebirth) then pari-nibbana is guaranteed no matter how unskilfully one lives ones life now.
Meaning is something that we create ourselves. It's a human construct, a thought pattern. We can make this life as meaningful or as meaningless as we wish. And I'm saying that choice is independent of our belief (or lack thereof) in rebirth.
Maybe. Or, we just die. Nothing. But I'm not speculating on that.
I'm talking about how one's belief/non-belief in rebirth affects us NOW, and saying, really, does it matter if it adds nothing in particular to our practice?
Namaste
Matter and energy cannot be destroyed, so our physical composition will be reborn into something else. Who knows if we'll remember our identity though, nor is it, or may not be important.
Also, the whole quest for meaning in life is just another desire that is born out of man's insecurity of living in an existence that just exists. I think it takes years of intellectual development to finally accept or realize this.
That depends on how you define "life as meaningful". Some people may hold that the most "meaningful" way of life is one spent pursuing sense pleasures. Some people might think that a "meaningful" life is one spent raising a family. Some people might think that a "meaningful" life is one spent being generous and caring, not only for our immediate family, but for other beings as well. Some might think that the most "meaningful" way to spend one's time is to go off into the forest and meditate.
What we consider "meaningful" is conditioned by what we know and what we don't know. Some people's definition of "meaningful" is more meaningful than others. In a Buddhist context, the most meaningful life we can live is one aimed at Nibbana.
.
As I understand it, it is a causal process. Consciousness arises according to unfinished business (i.e. craving) of a being who has just died.
there is no universal answer.
He found a truth which was valid beyond birth and death and found they are just appearances.
From the perspective of those of us who are deluded by the appearances of life and death rebirth appears meaningful. Another life begins. Just as another thought. Or another dream.
Upon enlightenment this doesn't apply anymore because we don't identify with the next thought world or dream.
This can be seen in meditation as I'm sure you agree we are not enlightened and we still get sucked into thought worlds.
What about karma & vipaka (effects of karma)? Does that take place in only one lifetime? If yes, why the differences among sentient beings. If no, then how do we know our actions will not hurt instead of helping?
Really? I always thought that the Buddha taught about rebirth because he saw the reality of it for himself (having remembered his past lives) and it became one of the key insights to his Awakening, not because he thought it sounded good from a philosophical point of view nor any other reason.
That isn't quite what Shenpen said. Refer to the actual quote just above your butchered paraphrasing. :P
How do you feel it was a key insight into his Awakening? In what way? Why do the suttas deny it as a key element on the path to Nibbana ("remembering past lives")?
Rebirth is only demotivating if you think that its good to keep being born (getting old, getting sick, dying, being associated with the unpleasant, being seperated from the pleasant, etc) again and again and again. If you recognize that "BIRTH IS SUFFERING" (and all that follows it) then you will want to get off the wheel of Samsara ASAP especially now when the conditions are right. Maybe we might not be so fortunate to hear the teachings of a Samma-SamBuddha for another billion aeons if we miss the boat this time. Doesn't this give you a sense of urgency?
Right - Nature is past life Kamma-vipaka. Nurture is present-life kamma.
But why did he turn his concentrated vision to that subject? Perhaps it had something to do with trying to confirm or deny an intellectual component that seem to be needed in his thinking.
From MN 19:
I refer to this Sutta:
"Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka" (MN 36), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html
Having a still mind (one which has just emerged from Jhana) is the pre-requisite for developing insight which will lead to Nibbana.
Of course; but I did not mean he was pondering his system of thought in any of the Jhanas right before his Bodhi insights.
I meant he had been trying to solve the problem of suffering for years and I am sure he put some intellectual effort into the solution. The intellect could not solve it; he needed direct insight of a Buddha. These insights naturally flowed from the major questions in his own mind, from those previous years of thinking.
For other posters who wonder about the value of rebirth, here is how Bhikkhu Bodhi described it:
Yeah, you're right, I probably could have said it better. The point I was trying to make was that the Buddha wasn't a philosopher, he didn't think his way to enlightenment. His conclusions came from his direct experience. I am not even so sure that Shenpen disagrees on this point, but it was the impression I originally got, maybe I'm wrong.
Such as?
I admit that I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not enlightened. All I have to work with is what the Suttas seem to suggest (to me) which, as you say, are open to interpretation and debate.
It does seem to me that Rebirth, Kamma and Four Noble Truths are the three key insights which led to the Buddha's awakening. How does it appear to you?
Understand all of the teachings as best you can on the conceptual level. If you can't believe, at least find the wisdom within yourself to not disbelieve. The master gives us what is yet to us unclear. We, the students, must have confidence that in time we will understand fully; we will realize for ourselves.
Fair point. Note however that rebirth-disbelief can also be motivating ("i've only got one shot, better make the most of it"). Hence my assertion it doesn't matter which you believe.
I don't think we need rebirth and kamma as inducements to moral behaviour. It's quite clear to anyone who observes the world that our actions affect others and ourselves in this life. We can use that, along with inights into our interbeing with others, as a basis for compassionate living that is independent of any belief in rebirth.
What is the motivation to practice the Noble Eightfold Path, to end suffering, if Pari-Nibbana (the total ending of the five aggregates) is guaranteed at the end of this life?
As we improve ourselves, we improve the collective experience of the entire planet for this and future generations. Self-improvement is not for the self's improvement.
Not that I am discounting multiple lifetimes. I'm saying... now is important no matter how you slice it.
With warmth,
Matt
To live in this life free from dukkha?
That is, assuming that someone accepts that the First Noble Truth is indeed true but somehow doesn't accept rebirth. Of course, most people who don't practice the Noble Eightfold Path don't do so because they don't think that Dukkha has anything to do with their life, most people don't want to hear about Dukkha. A lot of people just want to get drunk and party and forget the consequences.
What makes you say that?
Self-improvement and being concerned for the welfare of future generations are certainly wholesome intentions. But they are not, in and of themselves, going to lead to Nibbana, though they may indeed be supportive to the goal.
Despite the seemingly ridiculousness of this question, it is actual a valid one that ought to be answered.
Isn't death the end of dukkha? (Even if it's temporary until rebirth)
The Dharma without karma & rebirth is like a zombie - with neither brain nor heart.
I agree. That's kind of my point actually. We get hung up on what we believe/disbelieve, but in the case of rebirth, it actually doesn't matter so much in the end.
Why?
p.s. Zombies actually have brains AND hearts.
... for dinner.