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for the moment take it from me:p
at a later stage you will know by your-self:)
What kind of a pompous answer is that? What do you mean at a later stage I will know by myself? Are you just repeating what you've been told, or have you counted and verified 84000 ways to understand the Buddha's teachings for yourself ?
Did you ever hear of Schrodinger's Cat? Paradoxes such as this show that the world as we know it is pretty strange. Einstein didn't like it either. He said that god doesn't play dice. I don't see any reason in light of quantum mechanics to believe the universe is deterministic.
Secondly karma (cause and effect, mental labeling, and interrelations) is only relative truth. You can decondstruct it with madyamaka logic. So the truth is that time is a fabrication. Self and other is a fabrication.
This whole problem collapses. ie what means to the fate of a self determined when time is an illusion and self and other an illusion. There are no suffering beings yet still we must save them.
couldn't you get the humor in it
ok
i am extremly sorry for it, pardon me
Are you just repeating what you've been told,
or
have you counted and verified 84000 ways to understand the Buddha's teachings for yourself ?
if i say 'yes' does it make any difference to your practise?
if i say 'no' does it make any difference to your practise?
i do not think so
why should you worry about such minor things
Please also provide a reference from the suttas to verify your statement, thanks.
sorry dazzale, i can not give any reference because i do not know the exact references
as i have mentioned previously in this forum, i have only read few suttas, listened to few dhamma talks, think over them and practise concentration/insight meditation
The issue with karma is that we differentiate karma to show how "our" karma affects our own minds and can radiate outward to affect others. As seen from another perspective, where there is no need to imagine an owner, karma becomes the conditions that will at some point merit change throughout all phenomena; karma is that which is processed by Dependent Origination. Each moment, the totality of existent phenomena (all conditions) represents the karma of the universe. That is the snapshot. That is what Dependent Origination will drive forth in a predictable manner.
Time is a fabrication... sorta. What time actually represents is an "amount" of change that has occurred throughout all phenomena. We do not know what that amount is, as time is relative and not measured so much as labeled. Clocks only measure themselves, how fast a second is depends on another reference (the wavelength of a certain particle or something similar). We use time in our maths, and it only works in our maths because we base those on what is observable. Though we can see change happening, the only way we can perceive it as a steady progression is in this manner... "time". When you wake up at 7am and go to sleep at 9pm, only change has happened; time is the perception.
Of course there's always room for other viewpoints. That's the point.
Dazzle, the way you use that sign it appears unspecific who you are talking to. Second you are not connecting the dots so it seems like an ad hominem. You might as well post "Bullshit". I don't find it constructive.
Stephen but there is no reference point to measure change against. That is why there is no change. And the change is apparent only. Illusory.
I would disagree, but we may not agree and not find consensus. Contrary to that statement, I present the view that change is the fundamental function of reality. All existent phenomena undergo constant change as conditions merit (conditionality; Dependent Origination). This is in complete accord and actually leads to further understanding of the selfless (Non-Self), of Impermanence, and of Dependent Origination.
There are two ways to take karma, either personally (where the self remains) or impersonally (selfless). There are two ways to take dukkha, either as the disharmonious state of the human mind that is in discord with the truth of reality; or as neither suffering nor non-suffering... as the universal constant change. The universe is not "unhappy" in the same way, and so this is a deeper meaning of dukkha. Then there is Nirvana. The theme of these teachings is one of discovery and eradication of the "self", and it is to the self that they speak and concerned with the self. Yet, there is no self and so the meanings do extend further at some point.
And so this may lead nowhere as far as agreement, but it may help open the mind's eye in some cases. It's become a paradox; there is a communication barrier at work. The Buddhist teachings are correct, but there are "more" ways of seeing all of the teachings; there should be the capability of expressing these other facets as well, and I may be failing in that attempt.
It makes no difference to me whether you are a "stream enterer" or not, all the power to you, but there are two things that stand out. One is that you are not practicing in Sangha and do not have a teacher. Your declaration of stream entry is symptomatic of that. People thinking they have special insight is something an experienced teacher encounters all the time. The other thing that stands out is this scent of Beatific Holiness in your recent posts. This Holiness is symptomatic of a (legitimate) insight going to ones head. This is the thing, I don't doubt you have insights, but they are not in the least bit unique or uncommon. If you were practicng in a Sangha you would know this, and the specialness of this "stream entry" would vanish along with any Holiness.
Anyway I like you and enjoy "talking" with you. Just being honest about how it looks from here.
I appreciate the honesty, as long as you keep in mind that this is your perception. We become dogmatic about much in life, but dogma does not define truth. That's all I'll say to that.
I appreciate the honesty, as long as you keep in mind that this is your perception. We become dogmatic about much in life, but dogma does not define truth. That's all I'll say to that.
Sadly, we are not discussing the interesting topics such as stream-stepping and the nature of the path to enlightenment that your proclamations and well meant responses could encourage.
Does discussing stream entry and the path to enlightenment include everyone rambling on about their attainments and claiming that certain other members are just textual scholars? Although going on and on about your attainments maybe fine, indicating that he is better in practice than someone else is probably one way to get the thread off its tracks
To the contrary, what gets the thread off the tracks are exactly those types of comments, born of perceived offense given of one's self or of another that one is attached to through friendship. All such acts are selfish and bad karma.
And that is the end of the part these aggregates will play in this thread. Let what has come stand to be viewed as it is, either to be believed or not believed but as a selfless phenomena and process. Nothing more.
To the contrary, what gets the thread off the tracks are exactly those types of comments, born of perceived offense given of one's self or of another that one is attached to through friendship. All such acts are selfish and bad karma.
:bowdown:
I agree. Please carry on. The friends of friends will step aside
DD is a friend of mine and he most certainly doesn't hold grudges.
Certainly not.
I just keep seeing a mind stuck in the mud, trying to pull it out, but it tries to pull me in.
Oh well. The Buddha said one stuck in the mind cannot pull another out of the mud.
Apart from the various American layman like Dan I, Leigh B, Jhanananda, etc, I have never seen a practitioner claim personal attainments, including monks.
:usflag:
Buddha said:
Monks, among all things conditioned and unconditioned, dispassion is reckoned the best of them all: the crushing of all infatuation, the removal of thirst, the uprooting of attachment, the cutting off of the round [of becoming], the destruction of craving, dispassion, Nibbana.
Those who have faith in the dhamma of dispassion have faith in the best; and for those who have faith in the best, the best results will be theirs.
If you truly believe that there is an owner, I encourage you to study harder. If you're just an alt of a current member just now created to sow discord (and forgive me if not, because one who wore the guise of the malcontent did cause some unnecessary discord), then I encourage you to re-evaluate "your" karma. Either way, your opening statement of "If I understand karma correctly" is a good one for you to ponder.
~
<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> </style> Your right Stephen I am relatively new on my path. I will study harder but I also urge you study harder as well, especially concerning the fourth precept.
I dare say I may not have the understanding of the teachings or meditative capabilities of yourself, but I feel that the way you talk to people leaves a lot of questions that you may like to ponder about yourself and your practice.
Beginners attainments, whilst bringing insight & happiness, is a lonely place.
There is a natural urge (born of ignorance) to share.
true
It is important to find a senior companion to diffuse this tendency & guide the mind & speech (about dhamma) in the right direction.
i thought this too is true until one week before
i asked Ajhan Brahm about Sakadagami magga and Anagami magga
but
his answer was only the thing i knew already from the suttas that i have read so far
but again i think if i had the chance to talk to him he might answer through his own experience
this is what i am going to do if i have a chance to talk to him from 15-17 this month when he will be in melbourne
This Bodhisatva tendency is dangerous when one has not seen clearly.
true
that is when one see nirvana but think that one already is at nirvana
with respect to Dhamma Dhatu
could you tell me
how one can know one is in skadagami magga or anagami magga
it is confusing because both situation one is not totally let go of greed and hate
i appreciate if you answer in this thread or if if the request is too much please send your answer to private messages or email me
could you tell me
how one can know one is in skadagami magga or anagami magga
You mean the difference between once-returner and non-returner? Is there a clear distinction between the states of mind between these two attainments? I always thought that the difference is that once returner has to pass through the jhana levels few more times before realization happens. Have you read AB's meditation handbook by any chance? Meditative steps are very well described in it.
However, good that you brought this up as I would also like a clear answer to this one
What he says in the book is quite close to what you are saying DD. I remember AB saying that once the mind enters into jhana levels the doer portion of the mind is gone thus the person is not in control. You are only aware (knower) and the mind enters jhana levels and when the power of the mindfulness is burnt out the mind slowly gets out of the jhana levels. This process happens in many sittings/many times before the mind is trained enough to go upto the 4th jhana level.
It is advisable to read those chapers as he describes this better than I do.
You mean the difference between once-returner and non-returner?
no
i am asking the difference between the 'path to once-returner' and the 'path to non-returner'
Is there a clear distinction between the states of mind between these two attainments? I always thought that the difference is that once returner has to pass through the jhana levels few more times before realization happens.
what do you mean by few more times through the jhana levels?
even before one gain the stream winning one is able to gain 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th jhana (i am not sure about four arupa jhana)
one is able to master them (pancca vashitha -get the control of like get into jhana, get out of jhana, stay for exact time duration etc.)
concentration meditation can lead to jhana without having any wisdom of Buddha's Teaching
without read or hear Buddha's Teaching and contemplating on it one gains the wisdom of stream-entering and stream winning is hard to believe
but i can not say for sure it is not possible to become stream winner without read or hear Buddha's Teaching
it says pacceka buddha is able to be enlightened without Buddha's Teaching
Have you read AB's meditation handbook by any chance? Meditative steps are very well described in it.
yes i have it from the year it was published and read several times
specially i read the last chapters related to enlightenment to get a clue
but it only says the difference between stream winner and non-returner
hope venerable sanghas who visit to the forum would answer the question if possible
question is:
how can one know the difference between sakadagami magga and anagami magga? (not the difference between sakadagami and anagami)
by the way,
it is not necessarily need to be the correct answer like an arahnt can give
just your thought would be a great help to contemplate
what do you mean by few more times through the jhana levels?
It's there in AB's book Simply said, the mind does not straight away pass all four arupa jhanas at one sitting. It takes practice. The mind would get into the first arupa jhana and come back at the first time it enters jhana levels and go one level higher the next time and so on, generally speaking
concentration meditation can lead to jhana without having any wisdom of Buddha's Teaching
without read or hear Buddha's Teaching and contemplating on it one gains the wisdom of stream-entering and stream winning is hard to believe
but i can not say for sure it is not possible to become stream winner without read or hear Buddha's Teaching
it says pacceka buddha is able to be enlightened without Buddha's Teaching
I am not sure I understand what you are trying to explain here, sorry
i am asking the difference between the 'path to once-returner' and the 'path to non-returner'
For me there is only one path. I do not recall the Buddha teaching different paths. The one path is based in non-attachment & abandon craving.
even before one gain the stream winning one is able to gain 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th jhana
I have never read where these terms come from or obtain their meaning.
I said before, for me, the once-returner is entering jhana. Why? Because in developing kayanupassana, which is the pre-requisite for jhana, the mind is mostly empty. But then in jhanas, the mind returns to mental states of pleasure. The mind returns to worlds (loka)of pleasures & enticing things.
Similarly, my guess is the term 'stream entry' refers to the flow of mind. The mind enters into concentration. The mind "flows" because it is undergoing purification. It is dissolving more & more mental formations (within the body) & gathering more & more peace. In this process, it feels like it is flowing.
Even before Buddhism, for those minds that developed some state of jhana, the mind was required to enter the stream.
The stream is like a river flowing to sea, as the Buddha used as a metaphor in the Parable of the Log.
Now when the Buddha arose, he taught his way of entering the stream, which is the mind establishing itself (mindfulness) in the Four Noble Truths.
Instead of practising the gross concentration methods prior to the Buddha (which are similar to the gross concentration methods found in the Vissudhi Magga & elsewhere), the way of entering the Buddha's stream is to abandon craving & developing non-attachment, as advised in the Noble Truths.
Following the Buddha's method (which Ajahn Brahm describes well in his book), the mind has direct entry into emptiness & not-self because the concentration method is based in non-attachment rather than force & supression. The mind naturally has insight into not-self (anatta) before it enters jhana.
To end, I personally cannot support the view that jhana is possible before stream entry if we used the term 'stream entry' in a very generic way.
All jhanas have arisen from entering a stream but the Buddha's stream is different. The Buddha's stream occurs from faith in his teachings.
At AN 4.34, the Buddha advised the highest & best faith (saddha) in Buddhism is faith in viraga, namely, dispassion or letting go.
This is why the suttas teach:
And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination?
There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion (viraga), dependent on cessation (nirodha), resulting in relinquishment (vossagga).
He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.
I am talking about arupa jhanas. AB talks about arupa jhanas in his book if I am not mistaken
i have no experience of arupa jhana
at the moment i am not interested in arupa jhana and i do not know what will happen in the future
for the moment i am interested neither in rupa nor in arupa jhana but in samma samadhi
Would you like to share a reference for this information pls? I would like to read up some more about the rupa jhanas
enough of reading deshy,
practise, practise, practise that will lead you to rupa jhana
just try to get 1st jhana (this is more than enough) and turn to insight meditation and you will be able to understand LOrd Buddha's Teaching
I am not sure I understand what you are trying to explain here, sorry
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.
And what bhikkhus is the faculty of concentration? Here, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release (vossagga) the object. This is called the faculty of concentration.
It is also described in MN 118:
There is the case where a monk develops concentration as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on dispassion (viraga), dependent on cessation (nirodha), resulting in relinquishment (vossagga).
Vossagga [=ossagga; ava+sṛj] relinquishing, relaxation; handing over, donation, gift
Vossagga, tossing back, relinquishment: the natural giving away by the liberated mind
For me there is only one path. I do not recall the Buddha teaching different paths. The one path is based in non-attachment & abandon craving.
true
but i am asking how can one be sure that one is still on the way towards once-returner or on the way towards non-returner
at stream entry one already know for sure one has no more skkaya dhitti (wrong view), no more vicikicca (no more doubt about Lord Buddha's Teaching) , no more seelabbatha-paramas (no more depend on rites and rituals for deliverance)
next task of stream-winner is to practise to get rid of craving and practise 'samma sankappa' (Right Thought)
it says once-returners have reduced craving (greed and hate)
one who is on the way towards non-returner also has reduced craving
when one looks back one can see one's craving for pancca-kama has reduced but not completely
in other words one has not perfected Right Thought
my question is
how can such a person come to understand one is once-returner or on the way towards non-returning
what is the clue?
because in both situation there is the same criteria
(not that it is important to practise, but i thought it is interesting if we can get a clue from one who knows these things)
I have never read where these terms come from or obtain their meaning.
I said before, for me, the once-returner is entering jhana. Why? Because in developing kayanupassana, which is the pre-requisite for jhana, the mind is mostly empty. But then in jhanas, the mind returns to mental states of pleasure. The mind returns to worlds (loka)of pleasures & enticing things.
Similarly, my guess is the term 'stream entry' refers to the flow of mind. The mind enters into concentration. The mind "flows" because it is undergoing purification. It is dissolving more & more mental formations (within the body) & gathering more & more peace. In this process, it feels like it is flowing.
it is alright for the moment
all guesses vanishes at stream-winning (stream-entering)
Even before Buddhism, for those minds that developed some state of jhana,
true
Following the Buddha's method (which Ajahn Brahm describes well in his book), the mind has direct entry into emptiness & not-self because the concentration method is based in non-attachment rather than force & supression.
true
The mind naturally has insight into not-self (anatta) before it enters jhana.
this is samma samadhi (jhana) and there are micca jhana too
one has to come out of jhana or in neighbouhood concentration and contemplate on Buddha's Teaching (dhamma viccaya) to gain stream-entering/stream-winning
All jhanas have arisen from entering a stream but the Buddha's stream is different. The Buddha's stream occurs from faith in his teachings.
this is samma samadhi
even Buddha when he was prince siddhartha, a little boy had attained samadhi (jhana) at a Paddy Festival, and it was the second worship he got from his father
if he was a stream winner at that stage it is impossible to become Lord Budddha but an Arahnt
At AN 4.34, the Buddha advised the highest & best faith (saddha) in Buddhism is faith in viraga, namely, dispassion or letting go.
with respect to Dhamma Dhatu,
thanks for the response
it certainly helps to contemplate more
i have no experience of arupa jhana
at the moment i am not interested in arupa jhana and i do not know what will happen in the future
for the moment i am interested neither in rupa nor in arupa jhana but in samma samadhi
enough of reading deshy,
practise, practise, practise that will lead you to rupa jhana
just try to get 1st jhana (this is more than enough) and turn to insight meditation and you will be able to understand LOrd Buddha's Teaching
just forget it
it is not important
Upekka, I was merely answering your questions. I have no personal experience of arupa jhana myself. You were asking about something, thus you got the answers as I know but of course, nobody is belittling the value of practice :crazy:
I can speak for only myself and what I have seen and heard. When I look at the difference between once and non return, it seems to me to be related to the tendency or natural gravity of mindfulness.
A once returner wanders around, using concentration to penetrate the veil of subjective reality, glimpsing into formlessness and staring at the 4 noble truths to deconstruct previous understandings. The goal is to understand the true nature of reality. Using the 4nt and meditation to build a raft... a new morality that one can use to enter the stream.
Once a person's mind has sat long enough in that state, they have a realization into the fundamental nature of reality, or a strong vision of anatta, anicca and dukkha. This is like casting that raft into the stream. Now, concentration is not about forming a new anything, but on the deconstruction of all mental formations. You don't have to penetrate the veil any more, but instead have a natural vision that penetrates the veil. Your new "job" is to simply let go of all the crap that clouds the vision. The more you let go, the stronger and more stable your mindfulness becomes.
If you want to know if you are still building the raft or in the stream, ask yourself where you go without effort, without concentration or the external arising of phenomena. If you slide into old patterns of mindlessness, then you're still building the raft. If you slide into openness and direct mindfulness, then you're in the stream.
I think its a good idea to get a sense of where you're at, because then you know whether to focus attention on learning and understanding the suttas and developing right effort, or simply using right effort to deconstruct mental formations.
Hi honorable,
"Non return" could be referring to the attainment of both "Right thought" and "Right View" of self-emptiness. Whereas "One return" has attained the right thought but there are still existence of liquor smell (right view) in the empty XO bottle left behind after several cleansing.
Bahiya understood the Dhamma with one stanza from Lord Buddha
his faculties (saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) had been developed up to the brim and one single drop of dhamma from Buddha did the job for his mind
in our case,
we have to study hard to understand the theory (internal faculty+external faculty+vinnana = passa) 'thinnan sangathi passao
and then
practise, practise, practise until we grasp the meaning of it
how long it will take us to understand depends on how long we have been practising it (in this life as well as previous lives)
it may be in the next moment or few months later or may be few years later
so
irrespective of whatever we are doing now it is advisable to practise
eye+form+eye consciousness = just seeing and there is 'nothing' to be seen or there is no one to see a thing etc. for the six faculties
If there is absolute determinism then you are free, and if there is absolute free-will then you are paralyzed. If there is no presumption of selfhood in the absolute sense, then there is an absolute yielding. This would be absolute determinism from a conventional perspective.
Comments
What kind of a pompous answer is that? What do you mean at a later stage I will know by myself? Are you just repeating what you've been told, or have you counted and verified 84000 ways to understand the Buddha's teachings for yourself ?
Are you refering to the Kangyur ?
.
This whole problem collapses. ie what means to the fate of a self determined when time is an illusion and self and other an illusion. There are no suffering beings yet still we must save them.
.
ok
i am extremly sorry for it, pardon me
if i say 'yes' does it make any difference to your practise?
if i say 'no' does it make any difference to your practise?
i do not think so
why should you worry about such minor things
sorry dazzale, i can not give any reference because i do not know the exact references
as i have mentioned previously in this forum, i have only read few suttas, listened to few dhamma talks, think over them and practise concentration/insight meditation
what i say is what i know
if not,
i use 'i think' or 'i suppose'
The issue with karma is that we differentiate karma to show how "our" karma affects our own minds and can radiate outward to affect others. As seen from another perspective, where there is no need to imagine an owner, karma becomes the conditions that will at some point merit change throughout all phenomena; karma is that which is processed by Dependent Origination. Each moment, the totality of existent phenomena (all conditions) represents the karma of the universe. That is the snapshot. That is what Dependent Origination will drive forth in a predictable manner.
Time is a fabrication... sorta. What time actually represents is an "amount" of change that has occurred throughout all phenomena. We do not know what that amount is, as time is relative and not measured so much as labeled. Clocks only measure themselves, how fast a second is depends on another reference (the wavelength of a certain particle or something similar). We use time in our maths, and it only works in our maths because we base those on what is observable. Though we can see change happening, the only way we can perceive it as a steady progression is in this manner... "time". When you wake up at 7am and go to sleep at 9pm, only change has happened; time is the perception.
Of course there's always room for other viewpoints. That's the point.
There are two ways to take karma, either personally (where the self remains) or impersonally (selfless). There are two ways to take dukkha, either as the disharmonious state of the human mind that is in discord with the truth of reality; or as neither suffering nor non-suffering... as the universal constant change. The universe is not "unhappy" in the same way, and so this is a deeper meaning of dukkha. Then there is Nirvana. The theme of these teachings is one of discovery and eradication of the "self", and it is to the self that they speak and concerned with the self. Yet, there is no self and so the meanings do extend further at some point.
And so this may lead nowhere as far as agreement, but it may help open the mind's eye in some cases. It's become a paradox; there is a communication barrier at work. The Buddhist teachings are correct, but there are "more" ways of seeing all of the teachings; there should be the capability of expressing these other facets as well, and I may be failing in that attempt.
It makes no difference to me whether you are a "stream enterer" or not, all the power to you, but there are two things that stand out. One is that you are not practicing in Sangha and do not have a teacher. Your declaration of stream entry is symptomatic of that. People thinking they have special insight is something an experienced teacher encounters all the time. The other thing that stands out is this scent of Beatific Holiness in your recent posts. This Holiness is symptomatic of a (legitimate) insight going to ones head. This is the thing, I don't doubt you have insights, but they are not in the least bit unique or uncommon. If you were practicng in a Sangha you would know this, and the specialness of this "stream entry" would vanish along with any Holiness.
Anyway I like you and enjoy "talking" with you. Just being honest about how it looks from here.
Hehe, so your appreciation is based on Herman's mind? Weird...
Does discussing stream entry and the path to enlightenment include everyone rambling on about their attainments and claiming that certain other members are just textual scholars? Although going on and on about your attainments maybe fine, indicating that he is better in practice than someone else is probably one way to get the thread off its tracks
And that is the end of the part these aggregates will play in this thread. Let what has come stand to be viewed as it is, either to be believed or not believed but as a selfless phenomena and process. Nothing more.
(*Unsubscribed*)
:bowdown:
I agree. Please carry on. The friends of friends will step aside
Yes we can but we have to accept that not adding something constructive to this thread is getting it off the tracks
I just keep seeing a mind stuck in the mud, trying to pull it out, but it tries to pull me in.
Oh well. The Buddha said one stuck in the mind cannot pull another out of the mud.
Apart from the various American layman like Dan I, Leigh B, Jhanananda, etc, I have never seen a practitioner claim personal attainments, including monks.
:usflag:
Buddha said:
i refered to stream entry and not to arahantship
your point is irrelevant
ok
<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> </style> Your right Stephen I am relatively new on my path. I will study harder but I also urge you study harder as well, especially concerning the fourth precept.
I dare say I may not have the understanding of the teachings or meditative capabilities of yourself, but I feel that the way you talk to people leaves a lot of questions that you may like to ponder about yourself and your practice.
There is a natural urge (born of ignorance) to share.
It is important to find a senior companion to diffuse this tendency & guide the mind & speech (about dhamma) in the right direction.
This Bodhisatva tendency is dangerous when one has not seen clearly.
Kind regards
:smilec:
Lol ... I can relate to this, being a beginner meditator
"when one has not seen clearly... "
the way to be skillful in relating to others?
Been meditating for 20+ years and can still relate.
How much more so a fresh faced keener who has "the bottom fall out of the bucket" for the first time.
i asked Ajhan Brahm about Sakadagami magga and Anagami magga
but
his answer was only the thing i knew already from the suttas that i have read so far
but again i think if i had the chance to talk to him he might answer through his own experience
this is what i am going to do if i have a chance to talk to him from 15-17 this month when he will be in melbourne
true
that is when one see nirvana but think that one already is at nirvana
with respect to Dhamma Dhatu
could you tell me
how one can know one is in skadagami magga or anagami magga
it is confusing because both situation one is not totally let go of greed and hate
i appreciate if you answer in this thread or if if the request is too much please send your answer to private messages or email me
with respect,
upekka
So you already have a senior companion to take guidance from. I also think it is favorable to have one
You mean the difference between once-returner and non-returner? Is there a clear distinction between the states of mind between these two attainments? I always thought that the difference is that once returner has to pass through the jhana levels few more times before realization happens. Have you read AB's meditation handbook by any chance? Meditative steps are very well described in it.
However, good that you brought this up as I would also like a clear answer to this one
i can only give my opinion
whilst not a definition found in sutta, for me, the skadagami is entering jhana and the anagami has mastered jhana, ie, to the fourth
in general, if you have a teacher like Ajahn Brahm, it is best to consult them
with metta
DD
does Ajahn Brahm say this in his book?
thanks
It is advisable to read those chapers as he describes this better than I do.
i am asking the difference between the 'path to once-returner' and the 'path to non-returner'
what do you mean by few more times through the jhana levels?
even before one gain the stream winning one is able to gain 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th jhana (i am not sure about four arupa jhana)
one is able to master them (pancca vashitha -get the control of like get into jhana, get out of jhana, stay for exact time duration etc.)
concentration meditation can lead to jhana without having any wisdom of Buddha's Teaching
without read or hear Buddha's Teaching and contemplating on it one gains the wisdom of stream-entering and stream winning is hard to believe
but i can not say for sure it is not possible to become stream winner without read or hear Buddha's Teaching
it says pacceka buddha is able to be enlightened without Buddha's Teaching
yes i have it from the year it was published and read several times
specially i read the last chapters related to enlightenment to get a clue
but it only says the difference between stream winner and non-returner
hope venerable sanghas who visit to the forum would answer the question if possible
question is:
how can one know the difference between sakadagami magga and anagami magga? (not the difference between sakadagami and anagami)
by the way,
it is not necessarily need to be the correct answer like an arahnt can give
just your thought would be a great help to contemplate
It's there in AB's book
I am talking about arupa jhanas. AB talks about arupa jhanas in his book if I am not mistaken
Would you like to share a reference for this information pls? I would like to read up some more about the rupa jhanas
I am not sure I understand what you are trying to explain here, sorry
I have never read where these terms come from or obtain their meaning.
I said before, for me, the once-returner is entering jhana. Why? Because in developing kayanupassana, which is the pre-requisite for jhana, the mind is mostly empty. But then in jhanas, the mind returns to mental states of pleasure. The mind returns to worlds (loka)of pleasures & enticing things.
Similarly, my guess is the term 'stream entry' refers to the flow of mind. The mind enters into concentration. The mind "flows" because it is undergoing purification. It is dissolving more & more mental formations (within the body) & gathering more & more peace. In this process, it feels like it is flowing.
Even before Buddhism, for those minds that developed some state of jhana, the mind was required to enter the stream.
The stream is like a river flowing to sea, as the Buddha used as a metaphor in the Parable of the Log.
Now when the Buddha arose, he taught his way of entering the stream, which is the mind establishing itself (mindfulness) in the Four Noble Truths.
Instead of practising the gross concentration methods prior to the Buddha (which are similar to the gross concentration methods found in the Vissudhi Magga & elsewhere), the way of entering the Buddha's stream is to abandon craving & developing non-attachment, as advised in the Noble Truths.
Following the Buddha's method (which Ajahn Brahm describes well in his book), the mind has direct entry into emptiness & not-self because the concentration method is based in non-attachment rather than force & supression. The mind naturally has insight into not-self (anatta) before it enters jhana.
To end, I personally cannot support the view that jhana is possible before stream entry if we used the term 'stream entry' in a very generic way.
All jhanas have arisen from entering a stream but the Buddha's stream is different. The Buddha's stream occurs from faith in his teachings.
At AN 4.34, the Buddha advised the highest & best faith (saddha) in Buddhism is faith in viraga, namely, dispassion or letting go.
This is why the suttas teach:
Kind regards
DD
at the moment i am not interested in arupa jhana and i do not know what will happen in the future
for the moment i am interested neither in rupa nor in arupa jhana but in samma samadhi
enough of reading deshy,
practise, practise, practise that will lead you to rupa jhana
just try to get 1st jhana (this is more than enough) and turn to insight meditation and you will be able to understand LOrd Buddha's Teaching
just forget it
it is not important
It is also described at SN 48.9
It is also described in MN 118:
true
but i am asking how can one be sure that one is still on the way towards once-returner or on the way towards non-returner
at stream entry one already know for sure one has no more skkaya dhitti (wrong view), no more vicikicca (no more doubt about Lord Buddha's Teaching) , no more seelabbatha-paramas (no more depend on rites and rituals for deliverance)
next task of stream-winner is to practise to get rid of craving and practise 'samma sankappa' (Right Thought)
it says once-returners have reduced craving (greed and hate)
one who is on the way towards non-returner also has reduced craving
when one looks back one can see one's craving for pancca-kama has reduced but not completely
in other words one has not perfected Right Thought
my question is
how can such a person come to understand one is once-returner or on the way towards non-returning
what is the clue?
because in both situation there is the same criteria
(not that it is important to practise, but i thought it is interesting if we can get a clue from one who knows these things)
it is alright for the moment
all guesses vanishes at stream-winning (stream-entering)
true
true
this is samma samadhi (jhana) and there are micca jhana too
one has to come out of jhana or in neighbouhood concentration and contemplate on Buddha's Teaching (dhamma viccaya) to gain stream-entering/stream-winning
this is samma samadhi
even Buddha when he was prince siddhartha, a little boy had attained samadhi (jhana) at a Paddy Festival, and it was the second worship he got from his father
if he was a stream winner at that stage it is impossible to become Lord Budddha but an Arahnt
with respect to Dhamma Dhatu,
thanks for the response
it certainly helps to contemplate more
Upekka, I was merely answering your questions. I have no personal experience of arupa jhana myself. You were asking about something, thus you got the answers as I know but of course, nobody is belittling the value of practice :crazy:
I can speak for only myself and what I have seen and heard. When I look at the difference between once and non return, it seems to me to be related to the tendency or natural gravity of mindfulness.
A once returner wanders around, using concentration to penetrate the veil of subjective reality, glimpsing into formlessness and staring at the 4 noble truths to deconstruct previous understandings. The goal is to understand the true nature of reality. Using the 4nt and meditation to build a raft... a new morality that one can use to enter the stream.
Once a person's mind has sat long enough in that state, they have a realization into the fundamental nature of reality, or a strong vision of anatta, anicca and dukkha. This is like casting that raft into the stream. Now, concentration is not about forming a new anything, but on the deconstruction of all mental formations. You don't have to penetrate the veil any more, but instead have a natural vision that penetrates the veil. Your new "job" is to simply let go of all the crap that clouds the vision. The more you let go, the stronger and more stable your mindfulness becomes.
If you want to know if you are still building the raft or in the stream, ask yourself where you go without effort, without concentration or the external arising of phenomena. If you slide into old patterns of mindlessness, then you're still building the raft. If you slide into openness and direct mindfulness, then you're in the stream.
I think its a good idea to get a sense of where you're at, because then you know whether to focus attention on learning and understanding the suttas and developing right effort, or simply using right effort to deconstruct mental formations.
With warmth,
Matt
"Non return" could be referring to the attainment of both "Right thought" and "Right View" of self-emptiness. Whereas "One return" has attained the right thought but there are still existence of liquor smell (right view) in the empty XO bottle left behind after several cleansing.
What do you think of Bahiya Sutta?
Bahiya understood the Dhamma with one stanza from Lord Buddha
his faculties (saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) had been developed up to the brim and one single drop of dhamma from Buddha did the job for his mind
in our case,
we have to study hard to understand the theory (internal faculty+external faculty+vinnana = passa) 'thinnan sangathi passao
and then
practise, practise, practise until we grasp the meaning of it
how long it will take us to understand depends on how long we have been practising it (in this life as well as previous lives)
it may be in the next moment or few months later or may be few years later
so
irrespective of whatever we are doing now it is advisable to practise
eye+form+eye consciousness = just seeing and there is 'nothing' to be seen or there is no one to see a thing etc. for the six faculties
Dennet's "Freedom Evolves" is probably the best recent book on the issue of Freewill and science. He is such a great writer:)
namaste
I would suggest probably only an arahant would have total free will.
(Note: This is a suitable topic for our Food - Ahara thread, of which one is intention).
:smilec: