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Only a part of my post was actually intended for you Mundus. The rest was more general, so that is that. I didn't mean to say all of those things specifically to you, so I'll just disregard your reaction to them.
As to DD, I have had much experience with this individual; enough to be able to see clearly those places that I may have gotten stuck myself, if I simply had not. I offended him nearly right off the bat, and in so doing created the conditions for him to hold a grudge. That grudge has come back at me as aggressive/hateful/offensive ever since. I don't blame him, because there's truly no one to blame. I understand, and would say my karma is just as much a factor as anything. There may have been a more subtle way; there may not.
As to anyone else... I only assume that few have realized this awakening, as opposed to what the general member thinks which is that there are not "enlightened" individuals on NewBuddhist at all. If someone makes a reasonable comment, I reply. If someone were to say they "attained" (the term isn't fitting) stream-entry and they have a different viewpoint, I will listen even more keenly. Yet this is not what has occurred. What did occur was grotesque and the moderators had to intervene and delete a lot of posts.
Do you see where the problem is? In attempting to describe a concept as seen from the "other side" of the stream-entry event, few if any agreed. In attempting to elicit understanding by also shedding light on my own level of experience, selfish rebukes instead of reasonable replies are the norm. I partly expected this from the start with the very first post, but soon people may choose to start thinking about it.
Some, or maybe even one, may. If even one understands, then it will have been worth it. Even if it isn't worth it, by my standards, there really is no other way it could have turned out. There is no fallout, no suffering of the ego, for one who sees. Not for long at any rate. For this I have removed my final mask, accepted that I may be criticized, for the benefit of come whomever may. Where most are encouraged it is taboo to do so, I have done so, and in selfless fashion for exactly the reasons I have already stated and nothing more. The reaction is neither mine, nor yours. We are all a part of the stream, consist of the stream, and change with the stream.
Only a part of my post was actually intended for you Mundus. The rest was more general, so that is that. I didn't mean to say all of those things specifically to you, so I'll just disregard your reaction to them.
There error in communication was yours. My points remain the same regardless of whether you were responding directly to me or not.
Even from my first day on the forum, and I apparently at some point offended him and he's held a grudge ever since. That is his grudge alone, but he acts in such a way because of that.
More assumptions and clinging to perceptions.
As to anyone else... I only assume that few have realized this awakening, as opposed to what the general member thinks which is that there are not "enlightened" individuals on NewBuddhist at all.
You yourself have said this. I think most are aware that there are, however, some very advanced and realized practitioners on the forum.
If someone were to say they "attained" (the term isn't fitting) stream-entry
As I wrote "attained" I figured you might nitpick it. But after your discussion with DD over the use of the word "I" in everyday speech, I figured you'd know what was meant.
Do you see where the problem is? I attempt to describe a concept as seen from the "other side" of the stream-entry event, and no one agrees because their understanding is more conceptual.
Just because one claims stream-entry does not mean it has occurred or that their knoweldge is all experiential. Just because someone has not claimed stream-entry does not mean they have not reached it or that their knowledge is all intellectual and conceptual. People may not agree, while being beyond your level :eek:, because you are either mistaken :eek:, or because you have not expressed yourself clearly, or because of the inherent gap between the written word and personal perception and experience. But go on and continue making and clinging to assumptions about others' practices and experiences. :winkc:
I attempt to elicit understanding by also shedding light on my own level of experience, and no one wants to believe because such a thing is incredible
Again, or maybe it's because those who rebuke are beyond your level of understanding and are trying to clarify things for you.
This is what I'm talking about when I say that you are acting as if you're above us all.
I'm sorry Mundus, but if you think what I say is just more of the same, the same it is with what I think of your reply. I don't think that this conversation will lead anywhere. Let's end this microcosm of Samsara.
Now, is there something actually useful to add, reasonable discussions about the actual subject matter and not any of us taking it personally? If not, I'll gladly end it and leave this as an example (of many things). It was meant to give hope and a better understanding, and if it has been taken in any other way it has been mistaken.
As to DD, I have had much experience with this individual; enough to be able to see clearly those places that I may have gotten stuck myself, if I simply had not. I offended him nearly right off the bat, and in so doing created the conditions for him to hold a grudge. That grudge has come back at me as aggressive/hateful/offensive ever since. I don't blame him, because there's truly no one to blame. I understand, and I take some of the blame.
Totally ridiculous nonsense !...and you're claiming some kind of superior realisation to others?
DD is a friend of mine and he most certainly doesn't hold grudges. You would be wise to look inwards rather than outwards at others who have superior knowledge and attainments to yourself, if you hope to make any progress on the path, Stephen.
The personal arguing and defensiveness will not drive forth a healthy discussion. If this is all that's left, it should end here. More information than is even necessary has been presented throughout the length of this thread, and that's all that matters.
What I'm failing to communicate is that there is no one, no self, to seek. It's difficult to see the process when you are a part of it, but we are all just part of the process of life, of change, that happens throughout all of what we call the universe.
You think you are acting out of free will and by your own choice and actions. That itself is the delusion. There is no one acting. The goal of Buddhism is to not only see this truth of selfless nature of all phenomena, but to bring the mind into complete harmony with that truth. To see selflessness, know that you are selfless, and then to become selfless.
Tick tock tick tock. Understand it's only a matter of conditions.
Stephen,
It does seem that you have some great enthusiasm for the new found perceptions of openness and no-self. Good for not-you!
You are not failing to communicate, I would consider it a possible failure at relating. I hear you say you have stilled your sense of self. Good for not-you. So what?
I have come to see from your other posts that your intention is to be a beacon of light for others who are seeking assurance and whatnot. That you have come across as a king looking at serfs is an understandable reference point for some. I don't see you that way, I see your enthusiasm and compassion. I also see a slowly developing skillfulness in relating to people, one that needs some tweaking in my opinion.
Try not to decide other people's thoughts and feelings (one example of many is bolded above.) When relating to us, can you see how doing so pulls you into self-view? (you can't hold self as absent of form while applying solid form to another object or person) What do you think of "It seems" as an open perception, while "It is" is more solid?
I wonder, if your self is so quiet... why do your responses seem to be all about you and where you are, and not about them and where they are?
It does seem that you have some great enthusiasm for the new found perceptions of openness and no-self. Good for not-you!
You are not failing to communicate, I would consider it a possible failure at relating. I hear you say you have stilled your sense of self. Good for not-you. So what?
I have come to see from your other posts that your intention is to be a beacon of light for others who are seeking assurance and whatnot. That you have come across as a king looking at serfs is an understandable reference point for some. I don't see you that way, I see your enthusiasm and compassion. I also see a slowly developing skillfulness in relating to people, one that needs some tweaking in my opinion.
Try not to decide other people's thoughts and feelings (one example of many is bolded above.) When relating to us, can you see how doing so pulls you into self-view? (you can't hold self as absent of form while applying solid form to another object or person) What do you think of "It seems" as an open perception, while "It is" is more solid?
I wonder, if your self is so quiet... why do your responses seem to be all about you and where you are, and not about them and where they are?
Totally ridiculous nonsense !...and you're claiming some kind of superior realisation to others?
Got to agree with this Stephen. Not only are you repeatedly claiming that you are a stream enterer or having some kind of meditative attainment which I find quite unnecessary but you are also claiming that some people here are "lost" with just textual knowledge but with no real attainments as you do. What is the point of all this?
Got to agree with this Stephen. Not only are you repeatedly claiming that you are a stream enterer or having some kind of meditative attainment which I find quite unnecessary but you are also claiming that some people here are "lost" with just textual knowledge but with no real attainments as you do. What is the point of all this?
Though I agree with lots of your sentiments and don't understand much of Stephen's claims, I don't see what you hope to achieve by engaging with someone you will never be convinced by.
If the Buddha was here today, I guess he would have a pretty hard time convincing people on the internet that he was The Buddha!
This is what I'm talking about when I say that you are acting as if you're above us all.
Hey Mundus,
It seems funny, no? I'm certain you can see the loving intention behind his words, even as they are swung around in such a way.
I wonder this: When viewing reality from no-self view... then coming to a message board full of people using conventions and terms and relating in different ways... would be difficult to see clearly who is sitting in open space? Especially because sometimes conventional, subjective, moral relating is more skillful than ultimate relating. It also seems reasonable that it would take some adjustment, as stream-entry doesn't necessarily create skillful writers/relaters.
Just because someone has not claimed stream-entry does not mean they have not reached it or that their knowledge is all intellectual and conceptual. People may not agree, while being beyond your level , because you are either mistaken , or because you have not expressed yourself clearly, or because of the inherent gap between the written word and personal perception and experience. But go on and continue making and clinging to assumptions about others' practices and experiences.
This seems to me to be some of the most skillful and direct interpretation of the disharmony in the boards. The clarity you offer into the archetype of dissonance in the NewBuddhist sense is worthy of some praise. Kudos! I don't know about the phrase 'beyond your level' exactly, but close enough!
Though I agree with lots of your sentiments and don't understand much of Stephen's claims, I don't see what you hope to achieve by engaging with someone you will never be convinced by.
If the Buddha was here today, I guess he would have a pretty hard time convincing people on the internet that he was The Buddha!
namaste
I am not saying he has no attainments But, what is the point of repeatedly stating it here in an "internet forum". If Buddha was here he wouldn't bother proving himself?
Got to agree with this Stephen. Not only are you repeatedly claiming that you are a stream enterer or having some kind of meditative attainment which I find quite unnecessary but you are also claiming that some people here are "lost" with just textual knowledge but with no real attainments as you do. What is the point of all this?
Well, if it is the way he see things, the point would be to help them find the light...
To help them get past the wall that they have built for themselves, in this case the wall would be "being lost in just textual knowledge".
Whats the problem??
ps: There seem to be much negative feeling in this thread for no reason (there is never any good reason for negative feelings )
I am not saying he has no attainments But, what is the point of repeatedly stating it here in an "internet forum". If Buddha was here he wouldn't bother proving himself?
Whatever the point is, it is his not yourse:)
With such issues you have two choices, to walk away in peace or walk into Dukka, Egos etc
Can't we help others without feeling the need to reveal our attainments?
:rolleyes:
feeling the need seems presumptuous...
"Can't we help others without revealing our attainments?"
Yes. But sometimes, i'm certain that you can imagine how it could help.
Let's say you go to a medical doctor discussion forum.
First guy write this beautiful and very logical post about a problem of yours. Eveything make sense to you and it seems right. His suggestions on what to do to solve your medical problem seem fun and you are looking forward to do just this.
second guy write another post about a problem of yours. Nothing make sense to you and it seems completely wrong.
And all of his suggestions on what to do to solve your problem disgust you and seem so unpleasant that you would prefer not to do these things if you had a choice.
Second guy show you his diplomas... who are you going to listen to?
Haven't been following this thread, but having just read it.... Jeezo Stephen what's with this declaration of stream entry ? You said you had a teacher somewhere I think. I can just imagine standing in front my Sangha and declaring "I have attained stream entry". It would be like having a big sign around my neck saying "I am a million miles from serious practice".
We all make claims, or at least take stands on things, because its a take-stand-ish kind of medium, but come on.
Haven't been following this thread, but having just read it.... Jeezo Stephen what's with this decaration of stream entry ? You said you had a teacher somewhere I think. I can just imagine standing in front my the Sangha and declaring "I have attained stream entry". Why not just have a big sign around my neck saying "I am a million miles from serious practice".
We all make claims, or at least take stands on things, because its a take-stand-ish kind of medium, but come on.
So what?
Why cant he make his claims here without being attacked for them?
I agree his style is not conducive to recognizing the Tagatha but why criticize him, even slightly belligerently?
Do you have anything constructive to add to Stephen and his claims and observations?
We are all sincere enough, we all have insight and experience more or less, but the nature of this medium is to turn this into a postion or counter position, generally speaking. It is the nature of an online forum, this point and counterpoint structure. I think it make definitive what in person would be more nuanced.
Why cant he make his claims here without being attacked for them?
I agree his style is not conducive to recognizing the Tagatha but why criticize him, even slightly belligerently?
Do you have anything constructive to add to Stephen and his claims and observations?
I'm not attacking him, he is a good guy. One issue on this thread is the claim of stream entry. I'm asking ..what gives? Thats a valid question, because if you have any Sangha participation or work with a teacher you will know that declaring attainment will not go unquestioned. Stephen mentioned a teacher (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it begs the question what does he/she think of such declarations?
Haven't been following this thread, but having just read it.... Jeezo Stephen what's with this declaration of stream entry ? You said you had a teacher somewhere I think. I can just imagine standing in front my Sangha and declaring "I have attained stream entry". It would be like having a big sign around my neck saying "I am a million miles from serious practice".
We all make claims, or at least take stands on things, because its a take-stand-ish kind of medium, but come on.
Absolutely. In my offline experience, the people who blow off to anyone who'll listen about their supposed attainments and experiences, have been the ones who have the least understanding and are never taken seriously by other practitioners. It's considered extremely uncool to talk about one's "attainments " other than in private with a teacher or senior monk or nun!
One issue on this thread is the claim of stream entry.
Not really that. The point of dispute is him implying that certain individuals are "lost" in "textual knowledge" and do not seem to have enough attainment as he is. I personally don't feel that it is necessary to repeatedly claim your attainments but yea, who am I to judge.
It's considered extremely uncool to talk about one's "attainments "!
well... it's considered extremely uncool to meditate instead of going out with the guys and drink my face off every weekends...
but seriously, i believe it all depends on intentions.
Perhaps it would be wise to keep an open mind don't you think?
In real life it is easier to spot the guy who is talking of his experiences to brag and boost his ego; but i'm certain that if your teacher were doing this, or your teacher would introduce someone who would want to talk about this to help your understanding, you would be all ears and there would be no protest from you...
In real life it is easier to spot the guy who is talking of his experiences to brag and boost his ego; but i'm certain that if your teacher were doing this, or your teacher would introduce someone who would want to talk about this to help your understanding, you would be all ears and there would be no protest from you...
In my experience, that's about as likely to happen in the offline Buddhist centres I know of as it is for me to grow wings, change into a pig and fly away !
if it's true then it's true. If it isn't true then it isn't.
where is the need for a dispute?
Patbb, this is a forum discussion. When someone claims stream entry and also claims that certain others are just "textual scholars" then they have a right to give their opinions on that. These opinions sometimes take the form of disagreement. It is not mandatory that if you don't agree then you have to leave. :wtf:
Patbb, this is a forum discussion. When someone claims stream entry and also claims that certain others are just "textual scholars" then they have a right to give their opinions on that. These opinions sometimes take the form of disagreement. It is not mandatory that if you don't agree then you have to leave. :wtf:
I agree, we should be able to discuss freely, but the moment any kind of snide comes out, it changes from a discussion to something less wholesome and unbuddhist.
I agree, we should be able to discuss freely, but the moment any kind of snide comes out, it changes from a discussion to something less wholesome and unbuddhist.
Disputes are often, if not always perceived as snide. I don't see any disrespectful unbuddhist disagreements in this thread anyway :-/
And now do you see the beauty? Do you see conditionality working? When I left, it was a battlefield, a war zone, with much discord that would be considered personal argument rather than healthy debate. I went to sleep...
I come back, and all of the back-and-forth threads since I was gone are a healthy discussion full of good karma and of peace (more or less). That is the eye-opener; that is how things can be seen from the selfless, with an open mind.
I may come across in such a way, but I only intend the one. Rich: I have no teacher but the Buddha and life itself, and for this have studied a myriad of teachings from different schools, both Theravada and Mahayana. Buddhism is not any one of these, but all of these, and even Buddhism is only the pointer; reality does not change through Buddhism, only perception of reality.
Anything in this post someone's going to argue with me about? Gee I hope not. I don't see the point. Let's keep it healthy. This process is showing progress, and promise.
also not true ever seen any of Ajahn Brahm videos?
(which happen to be online and offline)
It's true for my own offline experience in the UK over a number of years at different centres. I don't live in Australia.
Do you attend an offline centre yourself where people tell everyone else attending the centre about their own perceived attainments, patbb ? Please share your own offline experiences .
And now do you see the beauty? Do you see conditionality working? When I left, it was a battlefield, a war zone, with much discord that would be considered personal argument rather than healthy debate. I went to sleep...
I come back, and all of the back-and-forth threads since I was gone are a healthy discussion full of good karma and of peace (more or less). That is the eye-opener; that is how things can be seen from the selfless, with an open mind.
I may come across in such a way, but I only intend the one. Rich: I have no teacher but the Buddha and life itself, and for this have studied a myriad of teachings from different schools, both Theravada and Mayahana. Buddhism is not any one of these, but all of these, and even Buddhism is only the pointer; reality does not change through Buddhism, only perception of reality.
Anything in this post someone's going to argue with me about? Gee I hope not. I don't see the point. Let's keep it healthy. This process is showing progress, and promise.
Stephen, I think you will find the threads are a debate about whether or not you are patronizing or way too patronizing:p
Sadly, we are not discussing the interesting topics such as stream-stepping and the nature of the path to enlightenment that your proclamations and well meant responses could encourage.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
You're right thickpaper, and that is the hopeful direction. Once the negativity born of self-view runs its course, just as bad karma eventually "burns up" (this too is at least partially inaccurate), what is left may shed light on that which was in darkness.
I'm sure you have some ideas already or you wouldn't have mentioned it. I'd be interested to read your thoughts if you do start a thread on that subject.
Comments
As to DD, I have had much experience with this individual; enough to be able to see clearly those places that I may have gotten stuck myself, if I simply had not. I offended him nearly right off the bat, and in so doing created the conditions for him to hold a grudge. That grudge has come back at me as aggressive/hateful/offensive ever since. I don't blame him, because there's truly no one to blame. I understand, and would say my karma is just as much a factor as anything. There may have been a more subtle way; there may not.
As to anyone else... I only assume that few have realized this awakening, as opposed to what the general member thinks which is that there are not "enlightened" individuals on NewBuddhist at all. If someone makes a reasonable comment, I reply. If someone were to say they "attained" (the term isn't fitting) stream-entry and they have a different viewpoint, I will listen even more keenly. Yet this is not what has occurred. What did occur was grotesque and the moderators had to intervene and delete a lot of posts.
Do you see where the problem is? In attempting to describe a concept as seen from the "other side" of the stream-entry event, few if any agreed. In attempting to elicit understanding by also shedding light on my own level of experience, selfish rebukes instead of reasonable replies are the norm. I partly expected this from the start with the very first post, but soon people may choose to start thinking about it.
Some, or maybe even one, may. If even one understands, then it will have been worth it. Even if it isn't worth it, by my standards, there really is no other way it could have turned out. There is no fallout, no suffering of the ego, for one who sees. Not for long at any rate. For this I have removed my final mask, accepted that I may be criticized, for the benefit of come whomever may. Where most are encouraged it is taboo to do so, I have done so, and in selfless fashion for exactly the reasons I have already stated and nothing more. The reaction is neither mine, nor yours. We are all a part of the stream, consist of the stream, and change with the stream.
~
More assumptions and clinging to perceptions.
You yourself have said this.
As I wrote "attained" I figured you might nitpick it. But after your discussion with DD over the use of the word "I" in everyday speech, I figured you'd know what was meant.
Just because one claims stream-entry does not mean it has occurred or that their knoweldge is all experiential. Just because someone has not claimed stream-entry does not mean they have not reached it or that their knowledge is all intellectual and conceptual. People may not agree, while being beyond your level :eek:, because you are either mistaken :eek:, or because you have not expressed yourself clearly, or because of the inherent gap between the written word and personal perception and experience. But go on and continue making and clinging to assumptions about others' practices and experiences. :winkc:
Again, or maybe it's because those who rebuke are beyond your level of understanding and are trying to clarify things for you.
This is what I'm talking about when I say that you are acting as if you're above us all.
Now, is there something actually useful to add, reasonable discussions about the actual subject matter and not any of us taking it personally?
Totally ridiculous nonsense !...and you're claiming some kind of superior realisation to others?
DD is a friend of mine and he most certainly doesn't hold grudges. You would be wise to look inwards rather than outwards at others who have superior knowledge and attainments to yourself, if you hope to make any progress on the path, Stephen.
Kind regards,
Dazzle _/\_
.
There's no arguing and defensiveness coming from me, Stephen. I'm simply setting the record straight after your accusations about a friend.
Be at peace now.
Dazzle
.
Stephen,
It does seem that you have some great enthusiasm for the new found perceptions of openness and no-self. Good for not-you!
You are not failing to communicate, I would consider it a possible failure at relating. I hear you say you have stilled your sense of self. Good for not-you. So what?
I have come to see from your other posts that your intention is to be a beacon of light for others who are seeking assurance and whatnot. That you have come across as a king looking at serfs is an understandable reference point for some. I don't see you that way, I see your enthusiasm and compassion. I also see a slowly developing skillfulness in relating to people, one that needs some tweaking in my opinion.
Try not to decide other people's thoughts and feelings (one example of many is bolded above.) When relating to us, can you see how doing so pulls you into self-view? (you can't hold self as absent of form while applying solid form to another object or person) What do you think of "It seems" as an open perception, while "It is" is more solid?
I wonder, if your self is so quiet... why do your responses seem to be all about you and where you are, and not about them and where they are?
With warmth,
Matt
Really great post Matt, calming and insightful
namaste
Got to agree with this Stephen. Not only are you repeatedly claiming that you are a stream enterer or having some kind of meditative attainment which I find quite unnecessary but you are also claiming that some people here are "lost" with just textual knowledge but with no real attainments as you do. What is the point of all this?
Though I agree with lots of your sentiments and don't understand much of Stephen's claims, I don't see what you hope to achieve by engaging with someone you will never be convinced by.
If the Buddha was here today, I guess he would have a pretty hard time convincing people on the internet that he was The Buddha!
namaste
Hey Mundus,
It seems funny, no? I'm certain you can see the loving intention behind his words, even as they are swung around in such a way.
I wonder this: When viewing reality from no-self view... then coming to a message board full of people using conventions and terms and relating in different ways... would be difficult to see clearly who is sitting in open space? Especially because sometimes conventional, subjective, moral relating is more skillful than ultimate relating. It also seems reasonable that it would take some adjustment, as stream-entry doesn't necessarily create skillful writers/relaters.
This seems to me to be some of the most skillful and direct interpretation of the disharmony in the boards. The clarity you offer into the archetype of dissonance in the NewBuddhist sense is worthy of some praise. Kudos!
With warmth,
Matt
Thanks for the praise, just doing what I can to do what I can.
With warmth,
Matt
I am not saying he has no attainments
To help them get past the wall that they have built for themselves, in this case the wall would be "being lost in just textual knowledge".
Whats the problem??
ps: There seem to be much negative feeling in this thread for no reason (there is never any good reason for negative feelings
Whatever the point is, it is his not yourse:)
With such issues you have two choices, to walk away in peace or walk into Dukka, Egos etc
namaste
Can't we help others without feeling the need to reveal our attainments?
:rolleyes:
"Can't we help others without revealing our attainments?"
Yes. But sometimes, i'm certain that you can imagine how it could help.
Let's say you go to a medical doctor discussion forum.
First guy write this beautiful and very logical post about a problem of yours. Eveything make sense to you and it seems right. His suggestions on what to do to solve your medical problem seem fun and you are looking forward to do just this.
second guy write another post about a problem of yours. Nothing make sense to you and it seems completely wrong.
And all of his suggestions on what to do to solve your problem disgust you and seem so unpleasant that you would prefer not to do these things if you had a choice.
Second guy show you his diplomas... who are you going to listen to?
We all make claims, or at least take stands on things, because its a take-stand-ish kind of medium, but come on.
So what?
Why cant he make his claims here without being attacked for them?
I agree his style is not conducive to recognizing the Tagatha but why criticize him, even slightly belligerently?
Do you have anything constructive to add to Stephen and his claims and observations?
We are all sincere enough, we all have insight and experience more or less, but the nature of this medium is to turn this into a postion or counter position, generally speaking. It is the nature of an online forum, this point and counterpoint structure. I think it make definitive what in person would be more nuanced.
destiny? never met one.
I do.
Absolutely. In my offline experience, the people who blow off to anyone who'll listen about their supposed attainments and experiences, have been the ones who have the least understanding and are never taken seriously by other practitioners. It's considered extremely uncool to talk about one's "attainments " other than in private with a teacher or senior monk or nun!
.
Not really that. The point of dispute is him implying that certain individuals are "lost" in "textual knowledge" and do not seem to have enough attainment as he is.
but seriously, i believe it all depends on intentions.
Perhaps it would be wise to keep an open mind don't you think?
In real life it is easier to spot the guy who is talking of his experiences to brag and boost his ego; but i'm certain that if your teacher were doing this, or your teacher would introduce someone who would want to talk about this to help your understanding, you would be all ears and there would be no protest from you...
if it's true then it's true. If it isn't true then it isn't.
where is the need for a dispute?
In my experience, that's about as likely to happen in the offline Buddhist centres I know of as it is for me to grow wings, change into a pig and fly away !
also not true
(which happen to be online and offline)
Patbb, this is a forum discussion. When someone claims stream entry and also claims that certain others are just "textual scholars" then they have a right to give their opinions on that. These opinions sometimes take the form of disagreement. It is not mandatory that if you don't agree then you have to leave. :wtf:
I agree, we should be able to discuss freely, but the moment any kind of snide comes out, it changes from a discussion to something less wholesome and unbuddhist.
Disputes are often, if not always perceived as snide. I don't see any disrespectful unbuddhist disagreements in this thread anyway :-/
It was not my intent to imply this.
I was referring to I thought "dispute" required negative emotions...
perhaps it doesn't, so my point was not needed.
I come back, and all of the back-and-forth threads since I was gone are a healthy discussion full of good karma and of peace (more or less). That is the eye-opener; that is how things can be seen from the selfless, with an open mind.
I may come across in such a way, but I only intend the one. Rich: I have no teacher but the Buddha and life itself, and for this have studied a myriad of teachings from different schools, both Theravada and Mahayana. Buddhism is not any one of these, but all of these, and even Buddhism is only the pointer; reality does not change through Buddhism, only perception of reality.
Anything in this post someone's going to argue with me about?
:-/ OK so I will reword it as "disagreement"...
Disagreement does not require negative emotions
And the classroom is full of misbehaving swines
It's true for my own offline experience in the UK over a number of years at different centres. I don't live in Australia.
Do you attend an offline centre yourself where people tell everyone else attending the centre about their own perceived attainments, patbb ? Please share your own offline experiences .
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Stephen, I think you will find the threads are a debate about whether or not you are patronizing or way too patronizing:p
Sadly, we are not discussing the interesting topics such as stream-stepping and the nature of the path to enlightenment that your proclamations and well meant responses could encourage.
you make a habit of leaving then coming back, don't you?
My first response to you in that thread, I think covers this habit.....
can we start a new thread about food (ahara)
as far as i have understood
the next step should be the 'getting the complete/perfect understanding of food'
there are four type of food:
kabalinkara-ahara
passa-ahara
mano-sancethanika-ahara
vinnana-ahara
instead of going forward and backward about the stream-winning, shall we continue going forward towards once-returner, non-returner etc.
OK.
Allow me to question the Ariyan disciple according to the Dhamma.
In the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha listed sixteen experiences.
On the level of neighbourhood concentration, the stream enterer should have experienced all sixteen of these.
Please describe them for your new flock of "hopefuls".
Thank you.
let us not forget there are 84000 ways to understand Lord Buddha's Teaching
Says who ?
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No, making quite a reasonable request to someone making claims!
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Whether or not there are stream-winners here, I don't know. Whether or not stream-winners make a habit of openly claiming to be so, I also don't know.
for the moment take it from me:p
at a later stage you will know by your-self:)