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Destiny (Not For The Lighthearted)
The Buddha knew; he had to know.
I wouldn't say that the future is predetermined. Such a word implies a design, and there is too much speculation in that area. Instead, I am going to state unequivocally that the future will happen in a specific way no matter what we think or what our actions turn out to be.
Call it fate; call it Destiny. Everything that exists now is based on the immediately preceding conditions. Everything that will exist in the future is only a matter of this stream of conditionality moving forward; of the constant change that Dependent Origination propagates universally, all as one.
When the Buddha understood fully this concept of Dependent Origination, he had to know; there is no pussy-footing around it. The universe is moving forward in such a way that will lead to specific future states.
Tomorrow will be exactly as tomorrow will be. However long it has taken to get to this point, it never could have turned out differently. Now I understand why it is the mark of stream-entry to be able to see this particular truth.
Now, you can argue with me. You can state another "opinion". You can grind your teeth and swear. Some of you will; some of you won't. This is your life - this is your now, and your future comes. Understand that you are floating in this stream of "life", of change; you are pulled along by it, and you do have a destiny.
You just don't know it.
Let the bitching-at-Stephen session begin...
~
I wouldn't say that the future is predetermined. Such a word implies a design, and there is too much speculation in that area. Instead, I am going to state unequivocally that the future will happen in a specific way no matter what we think or what our actions turn out to be.
Call it fate; call it Destiny. Everything that exists now is based on the immediately preceding conditions. Everything that will exist in the future is only a matter of this stream of conditionality moving forward; of the constant change that Dependent Origination propagates universally, all as one.
When the Buddha understood fully this concept of Dependent Origination, he had to know; there is no pussy-footing around it. The universe is moving forward in such a way that will lead to specific future states.
Tomorrow will be exactly as tomorrow will be. However long it has taken to get to this point, it never could have turned out differently. Now I understand why it is the mark of stream-entry to be able to see this particular truth.
Now, you can argue with me. You can state another "opinion". You can grind your teeth and swear. Some of you will; some of you won't. This is your life - this is your now, and your future comes. Understand that you are floating in this stream of "life", of change; you are pulled along by it, and you do have a destiny.
You just don't know it.
Let the bitching-at-Stephen session begin...
~
0
Comments
Buddhism doesn't.
If you could account for all of the variables, and I mean every one, you would know exactly how a bullet would react as it moved forward and impacted an object. Every bit of energy, every scrap of material, every force exerted in any direction and any change could be known. We can not even do *that* perfectly (even more so because of all of the other variables that may come into play outside of our control), yet the universe is exactly this way. We can't know our own lives, or the weather, or even what tomorrow may bring; but eventually, we will know that this had to happen exactly as it has happened.
It is what it is. I may call myself a Buddhist because it is the closest label I can use for anyone to understand my own understanding; yet, as of tonight, it is not what I am. There's no need to cling to the label.
~
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html
I started skimming through that, but really it's problematic to go that route. That is the understanding that has developed of a specific tradition. It's not necessarily what the Buddha taught, and as mind-numbingly apparent as it should be... the Buddha may in fact not have had all the answers at the time. He and his teachings were shaped by the preceding conditions.
If we're going to make arguments, let's do them outside of mere sutta reference. Let our own understanding be our guide and not simply that which has been transmitted historically. We're reasonable; we're logical. Surely we can imagine, for a moment, that we're not talking about a religion... we're talking about life. Real life.
:crazy:
My destiny will be the way I direct my mind at this moment causing me suffering in the next moment. The causes and conditions of the suffering are here in this moment. Thus, I am in a position to change my next moment. This is verifiable here and now.
Your pill sure leads somewhere down the hole Stephen :crazy:
I leave it to you.
What has DO got to do with destiny??
Release your mind. Sorry, your Matrix avatar made me do it.
(I have been trying to understand Ayn Rand's objectivism lately, she is very right and valid in her reasoning apart from that she assumes the existence of agents/egos etc Without that it all falls.)
But where I believe you are wrong, in this reality at least, is in terms of indeterminate events, which do occupy a place in the causal "infrastructure" of Dependent Origination.
Because of this, in this universe these kinds of statements do not seem to be true: "Tomorrow will be exactly as tomorrow will be... it never could have turned out differently."
What do you think?
namaste
Lol
Mind you, I'm not referencing suttas. I'm not referencing a tradition. What I am trying to convey is the "perfect" or "absolute" sense of Dependent Origination. I think we've been given an imperfect concept to work with, at least if most people would disagree with me, but that conditions are going to change this. There is more waking up to do than simply liberation as defined by the path.
If you were able to take a snapshot of the entire universe, everything down to the smallest particle and the forces at work, and re-run it over and over again, it would always lead to the same result the very next moment, which would always lead to the same result the very moment after. It isn't like the roll of the dice, or a computer generated random number, in our reality. Those are just concepts we like to warm up to, much as we like to think we have a soul or will live forever. They are placeholders for the wisdom to come and replace.
~
Yes, exactly.
I think it is more fundamental than that, randomness is built into the fabric of reality. It isn't about our understanding, in fact this is one of the few things quantum physicists can agree on; there are truly random events.
We can not even see the entirety of what we are made of; much less of the universe, but hopefully can come to understand the governing principles under which reality takes place.
I completely agree.
namaste
~
I disagree:) It is theoretically provable and consistent. Perhaps more importantly, you can easily show it in any of many experiments, many of which have been used for decades, eg, to provide pure randomness for cryptography.
I've done computer programming in BASIC, C/C++ and now Visual C#. Programmed random results have their causes. They are not random simply because there is randomness and it's inexplicable. It's quite... explicable. It's just not commonly known. We create randomness, either intentionally or as perception. Why do the poker sites have to keep changing their random number algorithms to get "better" random results? Because the random is not so random; we only take our percentages and our tests to mean that it is.
What we understand is constantly evolving; we're constantly back-tracking, changing our minds, correcting our methods, gathering new data. The thing is... we've become lost in this. The universe is complex, yes, but it's not beyond our ability to simply see reality and find peace in that knowledge. That is where the path leads.
~
And if you think about it some more you can see that to comes down to simple truths about probability, the alpha particle will or will not be released and there is no truth before that release of when it will be released.
This is an issue for science, not debate:)
Absolutely. They are not really random, they are just very long nonrandom sequences that are "seeded" for variance. This is why for cryptography they use randomness that they know is influenced by quantum events. (eg http://random.irb.hr/)
This is true, but not about quantum randomness, which has remained unchallenged since it was first discovered. Take a look at this wikipedia entry for a theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy there are no challenges or disputes about this...
namaste
And besides, let's not use "what hasn't been disproven yet" either as a point of argument. For how long did we think the Earth was flat and was it uncontested? Or so many other things we have gone back and said "oops" about? We're learning as we go, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the answers aren't already available in the knowledge we have.
I can see this is just going to go back and forth. What, I ask myself, was I thinking?
~
It's the best evidence we have for what the Buddha taught.
If we're going to do that, let's stop talking about the Buddha, since the only evidence we have for the Buddha's teachings are the Nikayas and Agamas.
No, we're talking about abstract concepts. We're talking about a philosophical issue with a long history. We're talking about underlying assumptions about how the universe works. We're talking about a lot of things, but not real life.
OK, so you are saying that you know science is wrong on indeterminism?
If that's the case, then we have no common ground on this issue:)
My dilemma is I'm not smart enough to have not posted this thread. It is said that the Buddha hesitated about teaching what he learned because it would be difficult for others to understand. Have you ever felt that no matter how hard you tried, others would not understand you? Or agree?
~
This is simply not true. Please, before we waste-more time, go and find out about quantum indeterminism..
Yes, where I am from we call it "being human":p
Now, I could be wrong, but we're getting into the nitty-gritty and I'm not a quantum physicist nor do I have complete confidence in their ability to describe our reality. If that were so, I would not have been seeking out the truth in all corners.
~
I don't know enough about QM to meaningfully comment. I don't know what you are saying on this. I do know that the world contains indeterminacy. It is not the Newtonian/Laplacian world you think.
~
About the causes and solutions to the problem of human suffering, yes, I think so. About a fair few other things too, I think so.
I think we just need to look to the buddhist doctrine of interconnectivity to see there is bound to be overlap between traditional science and the Buddha's teachings.
But you are not doing that, you are saying "Science is wrong on indeterminism just because."
If that's not agreeable, then my understanding of science and the scientific method is completely awry. Yet, I didn't have trouble with this kind of stuff back in college. I just don't need it now...
~
OK, well I do need it still!
namaste
Ciao for now...
~
Maybe its just your Kamma-Vipaka. Oh well, can't do anything about it.
I don't know if "destiny" is true or not. But whether or not I believe that "destiny" is true may influence my actions. There are four possibilities:
1) I believe that destiny is true, and it actually is.
2) I believe that destiny is true, but it actually isn't.
3) I believe that destiny isn't true, but it actually is.
4) I believe that destiny isn't true, and it actually isn't.
If option 1 or 3 is the case, then my belief is irrelevant, "shit will just happen". If option 2 is the case, then there is the risk that I will just be a lazy gud fer nuthin. Or worse, if I am totally nuts, I might go up and down the ganges river on a killing spree because it was "meant to happen". And if option 4 is the case, then I actually can influence the present moment so that my future will bring positive outcomes.
For stream-winners and above, they are said to be "destined" for Nibbana. But for the rest of us, it seems wisest to believe that destiny is not true, so that we take responsibility for ourselves. Then, even if it turns out that option 3 is the case, oh well, shit happens.
In no form of Buddhism is there any burning for eternity. Even if you get it wrong so badly, there are only time-limited consequences. It is best to strive for the truth, the final and absolute truth, than to be guided by fear... by the self. I know it's difficult. Trust me, I've tried everything and never could "believe". For whatever reasons, I wasn't afraid of thinking that this might be my only life, and figured if I got it wrong it was obviously not my fault... someone made it too damn hard to figure out the true path!
I stumbled into Buddhism. It is my last stop on the religion railway. I don't really consider it a religion though; more, it is a representation of reality and a method whereby we might come to know it for ourselves.
I'm not just following words written on a page anymore. The knowledge contained in the teachings, thought out logically and reasonably by the human mind, is only the beginning to true understanding. True understanding can only come of meditation, where the mind focuses on the concepts taught in Buddhism as they can be applied to all of your direct experiences of life. If the conditions are right, and following the Noble Eightfold Path is the surest way that they may be, the mind will experience a breakthrough... where conceptual knowledge, or belief, becomes wisdom. Then you simply know.
When I speak of Destiny, I speak of it in the absolute sense as dictated by the stream of change flowing forth that we are merely a part of; not of guarantees that such and such will happen. It is only guaranteed that what will happen... will happen exactly so. The stream-winner does not have the Destiny to attain full enlightenment. Rather, stream-entry is both the experience of insight into Dependent Origination (among other things) and a "marker" on the path. It says "you are here".
There are no guarantees of what you may accomplish in your life, or how long it may take you. Some may have indeed little dust in their eyes, while others have more and much effort must occur before results. The only guarantee... is how it will happen. That is Dependent Origination. That is our key, and if you grab onto it and hold tight you may be in for a wonderful ride.
~
Impermanent & Nirvana
King Prasenajit then rose and said to the Buddha: "Before I received the Buddha's instruction, I met (Kakuda) Katyayana and (Sanjaya) Vairatiputra who both said that when the body died, its annihilation was called Nirvana. Although I have now met the buddha, I am still not clear about this. all those here who are still in the stream of transmigration wish to know how to realize that mind and prove that it is beyond birth and death." The Buddha said to King Prasenajit: "Great King, I now ask you about your body of flesh and blood: is it permanent and indestructible like a diamond, or does it change and decay? (The king replied:) "My body will decay and finally be destroyed." The Buddha asked: "Great King, you have not yet died, how do you know that your body will be destroyed?" The king replied: "World Honoured One, though my impermanent, changing and decaying body is not yet dead, I observe that it changes and decays without a moment's pause and is bound to "go out" like a fire that gradually burns out and will be reduced to naught." The Buddha asked: "Yes, Great King, you are old now but how do you look compared to when you were a child?" The king replied: "world Honoured One, when I was a child my skin glowed and when I grew up, I was full of vigour, but now I age and weaken, I grow thin and my spirits are dull, my hair is white and my face wrinkled so that I know I shall not live much longer; there is no comparison between now and when I was full of vitality." The Buddha said: "Great King, your appearance should not decline." The king replied: "World Honoured One, it has been changing all the time too imperceptibly for me to notice it. With the constant change of seasons, I have become what I am now. Why? Because when I was twenty, though still young, I already looked older than when I was ten, while at thirty I was older still. As I am now sixty-two, I am older than at fifty when I was stronger. World Honoured One, I notice this imperceptible change in every decade, but when I look into it closely, (I see that) it has occurred not only yearly, monthly and daily, but in each moment of thought. That is why I know that my body is destined to final destruction." The Buddha said: "Great King, you observe this ceaseless change and know that you will die, but do you know that when you do, there is that which is in your body and does not die?" The king brought his two palms together and said: "I really do not know." The Buddha continued: "I will now show you the (self-)nature which is beyond birth and death. Great King, how old were you when you first saw the Ganges?" The king replied: "When I was three my mother took me to worship the deva Jiva. As we crossed the river, I knew it was the Ganges." The Buddha asked: "Great King, as you just said, you were older at twenty that at ten; and until you were sixty, as days, months and years succeeded one another, your (body) changed in every moment of thought. When you saw the Ganges at three, was its water (the same as it was) when you were thirteen?" The king replied: "It was the same when I was three and thirteen, and still is now that I am sixty-two." The Buddha said: "As you now notice your white hair and wrinkled face, there must be many more wrinkles than when you were a child. Today when you see the Ganges, do you notice that your seeing is "old" now while it was "young" then?" The king replied: "It has always been the same, world honoured One." The Buddha said: "Great King, though your face is wrinkled, the nature of this essence of your seeing is not. therefore, that which is wrinkled changes and that which is free from wrinkles is unchanging. The changing is subject to destruction whereas the unchanging fundamentally is beyond birth and death; how can it be subject to your birth and death? Why do you bring out Maskari Gosaliputra's (wrong) teaching on total annihilation at the end of this life?"
Upon hearing this, the king realized that after death, there will be (no annihilation but) life again in other transmigrations. He and the whole assembly were happy and enthusiastic at the Teaching which they had never heard before.
which the Buddha advised against...;)
However, I offer a different slant to the concepts that make them helpful to me.
Fate is not a predetermined set of experiences we are guaranteed to have. Rather it is the experience we will have if we do not change our patterns. For instance, a racist's fate is to hate different races. This is simple truth. Now, when it comes to change, upon the dismantling of the pattern that makes the racist, their fate is also changed.
Destiny then is how our view traverses our fate. It is not a simple predeterminism, but rather the story of how and what we encounter along the path.
Is there something mystic and magical about the process? Not really, its not a dude in the sky on a throne dictating the path. But it is according to natural patterns and our responses and relations to those patterns that dictates our fate and destiny.
With warmth,
Matt
Ditto
Or a neither option.
I guess the no vote works too.
This kind of intellectual examination can lead to a better understanding as long as we dont fixate on a view, its for that reason primarily that I would say I neither agree or disagree.
Of what?
But this is an intellectual examination and discussion of ideas and I don't believe anybody is any the wiser, or has gained any insight into anything, other than the views of others, which they happen to disagree with.
This is an unconjecturable and imponderable enigma.
As such, yet again, we have a thread that is ultimately so much hot air, and pointless space and time-filling.
yest when it's pointed out to participants that not only are they discussing round and round in circles and getting nowhere, and that basically they are ignoring the Buddha's good set of advice, (It's an imponderable, don't waste time, and don't consort with fools0 people gaily object to such a suggestion, insisting that such matters MUST be discussed, because they're important for a better understanding....
Of what?
Obviously, they know far more rhan the Buddha did, so they gaily ignore this advice and hammer on regardless....
So I just let them get on with it, until they just get tired of blah-blah-blah-ing the same-old same-old banter.
I'm sorry guys, this might be a highly intellectual, extremely erudite and thoroughly elevated discussion on a genius-level understanding of quantium physics and space-and-time theorems.
But it's all still a complete waste of time. And of no relevance to anything whatsoever.
But hey...
Knock yourselves out.
Wake me up when you're done.
I dont really disagree with you.
I do however feel that even under-developed or misunderstood thoughts and ideas can lead to a more well-rounded understanding through discussion and analysis.
It also helps people learn how to think at a more reasonable and skillful level.
Now this is the kind of contribution we can all hope to live up to.