Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Viewing porn is not necessary to sustain life, like breathing or consuming water. If a person is unable to choose not to do such things, or finds not doing such things extremely difficult, s/he is probably addicted. In such circumstances, it is a good idea to work on discipline.
Viewing porn is not necessary to sustain life, like breathing or consuming water. If a person is unable to choose not to do such things, or finds not doing such things extremely difficult, s/he is probably addicted. In such circumstances, it is a good idea to work on discipline.
Viewing TV isn't necessary to sustain life. Fantasy baseball leagues aren't necessary to sustain life. I've seen people obsessed with both, to the point of ignoring spouses and children. Interestingly, whenever this comes up, people understand that there is some factor specific to the individual that causes this behavior. But when the subject of porn comes up, many people start talking about addiction, even when no one has mentioned obsessive behavior and even though there's no evidence that porn is any more addictive than fantasy baseball.
Generally, when a person has an "addiction" of this type, there's some aspect of their life that they don't know how to deal with or are afraid to deal with. Telling them that they need to exercise discipline or overcome the "addiction" is equivalent to telling them to engage in an endless struggle with the symptoms without dealing with the underlying problem. It seems to me to make more sense to advise them to get help identifying and resolving the real problem. Once the problem is removed, there will be nothing to struggle with and no need for discipline.
I've known people with real addictions. I know that some people look at porn obsessively, but their behavior doesn't begin to compare with the behavior of an actual addict. A genuine addict will destroy their own property to get to the material they are addicted to.
I've seen people obsessed with both, to the point of ignoring spouses and children.
Precisely the problem I'm talking about. If a person is unable to choose not to do such things, or finds not doing such things extremely difficult, s/he should work on discipline.
It seems to me to make more sense to advise them to get help identifying and resolving the real problem. Once the problem is removed, there will be nothing to struggle with and no need for discipline.
I suspect you have something very different in mind than I when you use the term "discipline," since I don't think discipline can be acquired without investigating and addressing any underlying problems.
I suspect you have something very different in mind than I when you use the term "discipline," since I don't think discipline can be acquired without investigating and addressing any underlying problems.
That's an unusual choice of words then. Investigating and addressing underlying problems is not usually referred to as "discipline".
More to the point, you've introduced the idea of addiction. When someone on this forum mentions that they drink alcohol, which is known to be addictive, no one brings up the subject of addiction. Unless someone specifically says that they have an alcohol addiction, it doesn't occur to anyone to discuss addiction. However, if someone asks about porn, even if they don't state that they look at it, more than one person will give their thoughts on porn addiction, even though there's no evidence that porn is in and of itself addictive.
I'm not trying to single you out. You're not the only person in this thread who has mentioned addiction without tying it into the ongoing discussion. But since more than one person has done this, I thought it would be relevant to point it out and to wonder why people make this connection.
That's an unusual choice of words then. Investigating and addressing underlying problems is not usually referred to as "discipline".
I didn't call investigating and addressing underlying problems "discipline," I said I don't think discipline can be acquired without investigating and addressing any underlying problems.
When someone on this forum mentions that they drink alcohol, which is known to be addictive, no one brings up the subject of addiction.... it doesn't occur to anyone to discuss addiction.
Why not? If a person is unable to choose not to drink alcohol, or finds not drinking alcohol extremely difficult, why wouldn't addiction occur to anyone?
I didn't call investigating and addressing underlying problems "discipline," I said I don't think discipline can be acquired without investigating and addressing any underlying problems.
Which takes us back to my original point. Discipline is only needed if you fail to deal with the cause and deal only with the symptoms. If you address the cause and remove the symptoms, no discipline is needed.
Why not? If a person is unable to choose not to drink alcohol, or finds not drinking alcohol extremely difficult, why wouldn't addiction occur to anyone?
That wasn't what I said. I said that when someone mentions that they drink alcohol and give no indication of being addicted, no one discusses addiction. If it's not an issue, it's not brought up. However, when someone mentions porn more than one person will bring up addiction, even if the OP doesn't say that they view porn and even though there's no evidence that porn is addictive.
That wasn't what I said. I said that when someone mentions that they drink alcohol and give no indication of being addicted, no one discusses addiction. If it's not an issue, it's not brought up. However, when someone mentions porn more than one person will bring up addiction, even if the OP doesn't say that they view porn and even though there's no evidence that porn is addictive.
I totally see what you're saying. I was one of the people who brought up addiction to these two things, but I think I did it only because I see absolutely no problem with masturbation and porn, other than in an "addiction" setting.
Who cares if you masturbate within your own limits? You're not harming anyone and even if you view porn while you do it, if you are conscious about what porn entails, the fantasy world, the potentially hazardous environment for actors and actresses, and all those factors, then I'd say there's no problem.
It's only when those limits of your own become tested and broken and you see anything resembling an "addiction" taking place, that it all starts to "matter" or constituting a violation of the precepts and all that jazz.
So normal masturbation and porn viewing, in today's world, is almost a non-issue to me, unless you become troubled by it all and you over-do it.
i'm sorry is that angelina jolie? listen... the whole world is completely backwards sexually. just watch television for 5 minutes. the sexual energy is vital to preserve on any spiritual path. sexual desire needs to be gradually uprooted. feeding the dragons with intentional orgasm and filling the mind with succubi and conditioning doesn't help; particularly if your wishing liberation from it. today we are conditioned to abuse our sexual energy, made to think it's desirable. e.g. from marketing strategy most explicitly. without metaphysical confusion or abstraction we need to stop repeating the same processes of escapism expecting different results. according to pantajali and many other masters the sexual energy is the source of all spiritual power. sexual desire and orgasm addiction is an incredibly powerful fetter... thankfully there are hundreds of strategies in all kinds of forms to substitute and sublimate the physiological impulses and psychological compulsions that bind us in kamatanha.
Which takes us back to my original point. Discipline is only needed if you fail to deal with the cause and deal only with the symptoms. If you address the cause and remove the symptoms, no discipline is needed.
To which I can only respond, again, that you must mean something very different by "discipline" than I do.
I said that when someone mentions that they drink alcohol and give no indication of being addicted, no one discusses addiction.
I don't speak for other people, but I would say that if a person was asking questions about whether they should drink alcohol, it would probably be a good idea to help them distinguish behavior indicative of addiction from behavior that's not.
I think many male humans find that orgasm is very good for extinguishing attachment. Though I am lead to believe that this dis-attachment more neurochemical than spiritual:p
I had my struggles with porn, it actually became addictive and a too large of a presence in my life...therefor I banned it.
What exactly were you addicted to? No one has been able to define what pornography is. Legally, it is either "I know it when I see it", or "community standards". Imagine trying to persuade people that they can become addicted to a drug when no one can define what the drug is. "I can't tell you what you'll become addicted to, but I'll know it when I see it." Or "This drug varies depending on the community. In some communities it is X, but in other communities X is harmless and the drug is Y. But it's all the same drug and it's addictive!"
What's the difference between the fantasies that people have when they masturbate and the fantasies depicted in porn? Why are masturbation fantasies natural and porn fantasies addictive? Is it the combination of masturbation and sexual fantasy? Almost all masturbation involves sexual fantasy, but masturbation is natural.
In the 1830s, the citizens of Cincinnati banned an advertising sign because it was pornographic; it showed a young woman's bare ankles. Given the freedom with which women show their ankles nowadays, if porn were addictive then we should see large numbers of men addicted to viewing womens' ankles. In fact, given the fact that mens' and women's ankles look the same, we should see large numbers of both heterosexual and homosexual men obsessively viewing the ankles of both sexes.
Heroin is addictive. It's easy to specify exactly what heroin is by specifying it's chemical compound. If you use enough heroin, you will become addicted. The more heroin you use, the more addicted you will become.
What exactly in porn is addictive? Is it the depiction of genitalia? Historically, there have been many societies where people saw each other's genitalia regularly without becoming addicted. Such societies still exist. Is it the depiction of copulation? Depictions of copulation are common in Tibetan religious iconography, and it's not addictive or considered pornographic. There's nothing in porn that can be singled out as addictive. Everything is porn is common in some society without causing obsessive behavior. Large numbers of people have had frequent exposure to almost every aspect of porn without becoming addicted.
I have a healthy sex life, I don't have the need to masturbate often, but I can't see harm in that as long as it doesn't get compulsive...
So the combination of masturbation and fantasy is healthy, unless we call it porn, in which case the combination of masturbation and fantasy is unhealthy.
porno is fake....buddhism is the path towards the truth....water and fire don't mix too well...
Porn lies about sex. It lies about sex in exactly the same way that Hollywood movies lie about romance. It lies about sex in exactly the same way that adventure novels lie about life. Are we going to ban Hollywood movies and adventure novels? Because water and fire don't mix? Are "The Three Muskateers" and "My Fair Lady" going to be the next things banned in Sri Lanka for being un-Buddhist?
Sex however is a part of huminaty as basic as breathing or eating or going to the toilet, if someone said that breathing is unethical.....[
would you stop??
We don't have any choice about breathing. On the other hand, I can see the point of chastity. The ur-problem is attachment to self, and along with that comes attachment to various pleasures. As long as one is working on the basic underlying attachment, I can see avoiding lesser attachments that go along with it.
As near as I can tell, porn is sexual imagery that you personally feel is prohibited. I know a woman who considers Victoria's Secret catalogs to be hard core porn, and I know another woman who enjoys looking at BDSM imagery, so clearly there's no social standard for what is prohibited. It varies a great deal from one person to the next within the same society. A person talking about porn is talking about their own personal sense of prohibition. To say that one is addicted to porn is to say that one has an obsession about violating this sense of prohibition. That may be true, but then the imagery is the least important part of the obsession, and it's not the cause of the obsession.
Porn is a mirror. When we look at it, what we see reflected back is ourself. We call something porn because it arouses both sexual desire and shame. But neither the desire nor the shame are inherent in the image. Other people can look at the same image without feeling either. Ultimately, porn is just oneself. The same is true of an "addiction" to porn. The "addiction" is the host of social and personal psychological factors that make up oneself.
I have an obsession with becoming a better musician. I spend hours a day pursuing my obsession. There's nothing in music itself that warrants this obsession. Music is not inherently more noble than auto mechanics or bricklaying (both of which I've done). I have no delusions that I'm going to be happier when I become a better musician. I'm poorer because of my obsession, and I have sacrificed romance and sex. Is this obsession an addiction, or is it just an expression of the factors that make up the self? I'm grateful for this and other lesser obsessions, because they give me an opportunity to see myself as I am, stripped of idealistic illusions.
I don't speak for other people, but I would say that if a person was asking questions about whether they should drink alcohol, it would probably be a good idea to help them distinguish behavior indicative of addiction from behavior that's not.
What people almost always ask is whether it OK for Buddhists to drink alcohol. The question is about whether alcohol is prohibited in Buddhism. There's no reason to suppose that that question indicates that they don't know how to identify addictive behavior.
Ive seen this guy and read the article on a previous occaision. He's not exactly a happy looking fellow. I'd be more likely to tread the path of someone with a smile in their eyes like TNH.
Haha..many grandfathers also no smile but they are so lovely grandfather. He has a very pleasant smile in him.
It may be expressed many ways. Self-mastery. Self-control. As I have been indicating in previous posts, one of its dimensions is the ability to choose one's own actions.
"Irrigators guide the water. Fletchers shape the arrow shaft. Carpenters shape the wood. The wise control themselves."
"Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one — himself. Better to conquer yourself than others. When you've trained yourself, living in constant self-control, neither a deva nor gandhabba, nor a Mara banded with Brahmas, could turn that triumph back into defeat."
What people almost always ask is whether it OK for Buddhists to drink alcohol. The question is about whether alcohol is prohibited in Buddhism. There's no reason to suppose that that question indicates that they don't know how to identify addictive behavior.
I think it is unfortunate that you would not consider that helpful information.
Why is it helpful to give people information they don't need and haven't asked for?
I would not assume that they didn't need it, nor even that they weren't asking for it. It is very relevant to the question whether Buddhists should drink alcohol.
Firstly, in spite of what HHDL says about masturbation, I don't have a problem with it. I just can't see the harm in it.
While porn may be addictive to some, I can't say that I've had that problem. My objection to it, however, is not that it may be addictive, but that I feel that it is harmful to the actors who portray it. Lest I sound superior and prudish, and despite my resolution to avoid porn, I have occasionally indulged in it (perhaps 3-4 times a year.) The more I practice, and the better the relationship I'm in, the less I feel the need to indulge.
As I understand it, the reason alcohol is forbidden is not because it is potentially addictive, but because it clouds the mind. It's hard to practice when you can't think straight and all your inhibitions are turned off. Porn doesn't do this, I don't think. My objection is more a matter of the first precept than the third or the fifth.
I would not assume that they didn't need it, nor even that they weren't asking for it. It is very relevant to the question whether Buddhists should drink alcohol.
OK. Some who has no problem with an alcohol addiction and understands what addictive behavior is wonders whether alcohol is banned in Buddhism, posts the question, and you answer by telling him what addictive behavior is.
As I understand it, the reason alcohol is forbidden is not because it is potentially addictive, but because it clouds the mind. It's hard to practice when you can't think straight and all your inhibitions are turned off. Porn doesn't do this, I don't think.
I think it's clear that anything involving desire clouds the mind. Sexual desire doesn't slow down the reflexes or put one in a stupor, but it does remove inhibitions and it has been shown to adversely affect decision making. Furthermore, it can be triggered without having to manufacture or consume anything, so it's more likely to occur in most people.
Note that I'm not defending porn, I'm just pointing out that there's no evidence that it's addictive and condescending, pitying attitudes towards porn performers don't do them any good.
Desirous attachment to sense pleasures ?
when has engaging in such activities bought us any true lasting happiness ? In fact they only serve to do the opposite increase our ignorance and self-cherishing the root of all suffering, repeatedly engaging in these actions builds up a habit and it soon becomes difficult to stop and unsatisfactory, no longer giving rise to pleasure, But even pain out of the burden of attachment, still it becomes harder to cease, We dont grasp that by repeating the lie over and over again " I can find happiness and satisfaction here " we are increasing our suffering even for those who are not aware that they are doing this, eventually once such things no longer give us te thrill we seek delusion moves our object of attachment to heavier sometimes darker thrills, and so on and so on...Habitually feeding our ignorance out of attachment will only create more suffering futher down the line.
Such actions are not skillful and do not lead us to any happiness, a temporary reduction of previous manifest suffering but even this is deceptive as when we feed our hunger it only becomes stronger and will never be sated with the amount it is given, It shall always seek more.
Skillful on the path to freedom from suffering ? Awnser NO.
Through personal experience I have come to the conclusion that one's sex drive should be left alone, unless it is harmful to others (e.g. you are a sadistic maniac). I used to try and quit self-pleasuring and internet porn. Kept on trying for years, and that gave me nothing but grief. I would repeatedly fail and feel guilt, depression and helplessness. I'd stay "sober" for a few weeks but then the desire became so overwhelming, I'd desperately succumb to binges that sometimes lasted weeks.
Then eventually I decided that I'm gonna do myself whenever I want and look at whatever I want while I do that. I decided to accept my sex drive as an important part of me and not try and suppress it or change it. That worked out pretty well. The frequency actually decreased and, more importantly, the immensely negative mental states that used to result from "failures" to abstain vanished, making me a happier person...
Now of course if you secretly masturbate to porn while living with a sexual partner, there's probably a problem. But I don't think that's a problem with masturbation or porn-- I think the problem is with your relationship. I think looking at porn in and of itself is a neutral behaviour, unless it takes hours and hours every week and thus consumes a good part of your life.
...One clue that supports my stance. If you google "pornography addiction" you'll get a whole bunch of Christian-oriented websites. That implies that pornography becomes a problem when you think sexuality should be strictly controlled (Christian position). It's when you mess with your nature that you start messing yourself up.
I am laughing because I noticed this thread had 96 replies. The highest reply in this section of the forums. Holy Cow! I think everybody is very much interested in this topic.
...One clue that supports my stance. If you google "pornography addiction" you'll get a whole bunch of Christian-oriented websites. That implies that pornography becomes a problem when you think sexuality should be strictly controlled (Christian position).
Ah, guilt by association. Christians also teach forgiving and kindness, and I don't think I'm going to give up trying to practice them on that account. :-)
The idea of porn addiction is dubious basically because there's no good evidence that porn addiction occurs. Porn is also highly variable. It is one thing in one place or time and another thing in another place or time. It's hard to argue that something is addictive if you can't pin down what it is.
It's when you mess with your nature that you start messing yourself up.
"Nature" is a bit like porn; undefinable. There is a built in mechanism for releasing opioids in the brain when one's genitalia are stimulated. Our preference for partners of one sex or the other or some combination seems to be partly genetic. Everything else is learned behavior. It's as natural to avoid sex as it is to pursue it, although those opioids do bias us in the direction of pursuit.
It's also common to obsess over desirable things that are forbidden.
OMG Takeahnase now I am really laughing. Stop it right now!
heh heh. I see the complications of sexual energy as very complicated. I am 61 years old and my last encounter with a man (I female) was in 1987 and I think after all this time I am likeing my celebacie. (sp) But I can understand how it can be so worrisome especially in this day and age where this is all you see weather you turn on the TV or open virtually any mainstream magazine. Young beautiful women trying to sell you something, and trying to sell it to you as though if you buy that product, your sexual lives will improve or if you buy that product sex will be included.
Personally I think porn is ok, and sex including masturbation is the same. Of course pre-birthcontrol-societies needed rules for sexual conduct to avoid overpopulation. Religion provided not only answers where none was otherwise given, but also rules on how to this and that. The Tipitaka has guidance on how to spend your income - 25% to spend, 50% to invest in your store and 25% in savings. It's hardly of any value today.
When reading or dealing with religious rules and ideas, it's invaluable to have the time and place of the religious rules and ideas in mind. Furthermore you should have your own cultural background in mind. Thus you will avoid drawing false conclusions or be deluded by worth- and meaningless babble.
The porn/sex/masturbation-talk is a leftover from a period, where that talk was especially relevant. Christianity is responsible for the over-focusing on sex in the west. By the Christian Church rules on sexual conduct was (and is) not only used as a guide to avoid harming others or not contracting diseases or producing way more children than you can feed, but also to keep the sheep in the flock. Sex became some of the worst crimes you could commit. And the Ministers and thunder priests knew that people would NEVER be able to control their sexual desires. And fortunately the Church was the only place of absolution.
Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it. I don't believe that even the most vigilant of monks never indulge in masturbation.
So for ones own sake, the issue is best left in its natural state - something to have a little time alone with.
On the porn-side, I think RenGalskap has said was needs to be said. I will add that I do not support the exploitation of women or men. I will also add, that I have a girlfriend who likes it rough enough - it's not only in movies you'll find that.
Comments
Generally, when a person has an "addiction" of this type, there's some aspect of their life that they don't know how to deal with or are afraid to deal with. Telling them that they need to exercise discipline or overcome the "addiction" is equivalent to telling them to engage in an endless struggle with the symptoms without dealing with the underlying problem. It seems to me to make more sense to advise them to get help identifying and resolving the real problem. Once the problem is removed, there will be nothing to struggle with and no need for discipline.
I've known people with real addictions. I know that some people look at porn obsessively, but their behavior doesn't begin to compare with the behavior of an actual addict. A genuine addict will destroy their own property to get to the material they are addicted to.
Precisely the problem I'm talking about. If a person is unable to choose not to do such things, or finds not doing such things extremely difficult, s/he should work on discipline.
I suspect you have something very different in mind than I when you use the term "discipline," since I don't think discipline can be acquired without investigating and addressing any underlying problems.
More to the point, you've introduced the idea of addiction. When someone on this forum mentions that they drink alcohol, which is known to be addictive, no one brings up the subject of addiction. Unless someone specifically says that they have an alcohol addiction, it doesn't occur to anyone to discuss addiction. However, if someone asks about porn, even if they don't state that they look at it, more than one person will give their thoughts on porn addiction, even though there's no evidence that porn is in and of itself addictive.
I'm not trying to single you out. You're not the only person in this thread who has mentioned addiction without tying it into the ongoing discussion. But since more than one person has done this, I thought it would be relevant to point it out and to wonder why people make this connection.
Why not? If a person is unable to choose not to drink alcohol, or finds not drinking alcohol extremely difficult, why wouldn't addiction occur to anyone?
That wasn't what I said. I said that when someone mentions that they drink alcohol and give no indication of being addicted, no one discusses addiction. If it's not an issue, it's not brought up. However, when someone mentions porn more than one person will bring up addiction, even if the OP doesn't say that they view porn and even though there's no evidence that porn is addictive.
I totally see what you're saying. I was one of the people who brought up addiction to these two things, but I think I did it only because I see absolutely no problem with masturbation and porn, other than in an "addiction" setting.
Who cares if you masturbate within your own limits? You're not harming anyone and even if you view porn while you do it, if you are conscious about what porn entails, the fantasy world, the potentially hazardous environment for actors and actresses, and all those factors, then I'd say there's no problem.
It's only when those limits of your own become tested and broken and you see anything resembling an "addiction" taking place, that it all starts to "matter" or constituting a violation of the precepts and all that jazz.
So normal masturbation and porn viewing, in today's world, is almost a non-issue to me, unless you become troubled by it all and you over-do it.
http://news.xin.msn.com/en/news-photos.aspx?cp-documentid=4081049
What?
I have a healthy sex life, I don't have the need to masturbate often, but I can't see harm in that as long as it doesn't get compulsive...
porno is fake....buddhism is the path towards the truth....water and fire don't mix too well...
Sex however is a part of huminaty as basic as breathing or eating or going to the toilet, if someone said that breathing is unethical.....
would you stop??
I don't speak for other people, but I would say that if a person was asking questions about whether they should drink alcohol, it would probably be a good idea to help them distinguish behavior indicative of addiction from behavior that's not.
I think many male humans find that orgasm is very good for extinguishing attachment. Though I am lead to believe that this dis-attachment more neurochemical than spiritual:p
zinc
Asking someone about something and asking someone to do something are not requests cut of the same cloth.
But on a less pretentious note, what would happen? I have no idea!
namaste
What sutta is that from? LOL.
What's the difference between the fantasies that people have when they masturbate and the fantasies depicted in porn? Why are masturbation fantasies natural and porn fantasies addictive? Is it the combination of masturbation and sexual fantasy? Almost all masturbation involves sexual fantasy, but masturbation is natural.
In the 1830s, the citizens of Cincinnati banned an advertising sign because it was pornographic; it showed a young woman's bare ankles. Given the freedom with which women show their ankles nowadays, if porn were addictive then we should see large numbers of men addicted to viewing womens' ankles. In fact, given the fact that mens' and women's ankles look the same, we should see large numbers of both heterosexual and homosexual men obsessively viewing the ankles of both sexes.
Heroin is addictive. It's easy to specify exactly what heroin is by specifying it's chemical compound. If you use enough heroin, you will become addicted. The more heroin you use, the more addicted you will become.
What exactly in porn is addictive? Is it the depiction of genitalia? Historically, there have been many societies where people saw each other's genitalia regularly without becoming addicted. Such societies still exist. Is it the depiction of copulation? Depictions of copulation are common in Tibetan religious iconography, and it's not addictive or considered pornographic. There's nothing in porn that can be singled out as addictive. Everything is porn is common in some society without causing obsessive behavior. Large numbers of people have had frequent exposure to almost every aspect of porn without becoming addicted.
So the combination of masturbation and fantasy is healthy, unless we call it porn, in which case the combination of masturbation and fantasy is unhealthy.
Porn lies about sex. It lies about sex in exactly the same way that Hollywood movies lie about romance. It lies about sex in exactly the same way that adventure novels lie about life. Are we going to ban Hollywood movies and adventure novels? Because water and fire don't mix? Are "The Three Muskateers" and "My Fair Lady" going to be the next things banned in Sri Lanka for being un-Buddhist?
We don't have any choice about breathing. On the other hand, I can see the point of chastity. The ur-problem is attachment to self, and along with that comes attachment to various pleasures. As long as one is working on the basic underlying attachment, I can see avoiding lesser attachments that go along with it.
As near as I can tell, porn is sexual imagery that you personally feel is prohibited. I know a woman who considers Victoria's Secret catalogs to be hard core porn, and I know another woman who enjoys looking at BDSM imagery, so clearly there's no social standard for what is prohibited. It varies a great deal from one person to the next within the same society. A person talking about porn is talking about their own personal sense of prohibition. To say that one is addicted to porn is to say that one has an obsession about violating this sense of prohibition. That may be true, but then the imagery is the least important part of the obsession, and it's not the cause of the obsession.
Porn is a mirror. When we look at it, what we see reflected back is ourself. We call something porn because it arouses both sexual desire and shame. But neither the desire nor the shame are inherent in the image. Other people can look at the same image without feeling either. Ultimately, porn is just oneself. The same is true of an "addiction" to porn. The "addiction" is the host of social and personal psychological factors that make up oneself.
I have an obsession with becoming a better musician. I spend hours a day pursuing my obsession. There's nothing in music itself that warrants this obsession. Music is not inherently more noble than auto mechanics or bricklaying (both of which I've done). I have no delusions that I'm going to be happier when I become a better musician. I'm poorer because of my obsession, and I have sacrificed romance and sex. Is this obsession an addiction, or is it just an expression of the factors that make up the self? I'm grateful for this and other lesser obsessions, because they give me an opportunity to see myself as I am, stripped of idealistic illusions.
But that's not what was wanted.
Your in the Dharma,
Todd
Attachment to Impermanence leads to Suffering. Get rid of it now, before it consumes you.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
What people almost always ask is whether it OK for Buddhists to drink alcohol. The question is about whether alcohol is prohibited in Buddhism. There's no reason to suppose that that question indicates that they don't know how to identify addictive behavior.
"Irrigators guide the water. Fletchers shape the arrow shaft. Carpenters shape the wood. The wise control themselves."
"Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one — himself. Better to conquer yourself than others. When you've trained yourself, living in constant self-control, neither a deva nor gandhabba, nor a Mara banded with Brahmas, could turn that triumph back into defeat."
I think it is unfortunate that you would not consider that helpful information.
Why is it helpful to give people information they don't need and haven't asked for?
I would not assume that they didn't need it, nor even that they weren't asking for it. It is very relevant to the question whether Buddhists should drink alcohol.
While porn may be addictive to some, I can't say that I've had that problem. My objection to it, however, is not that it may be addictive, but that I feel that it is harmful to the actors who portray it. Lest I sound superior and prudish, and despite my resolution to avoid porn, I have occasionally indulged in it (perhaps 3-4 times a year.) The more I practice, and the better the relationship I'm in, the less I feel the need to indulge.
As I understand it, the reason alcohol is forbidden is not because it is potentially addictive, but because it clouds the mind. It's hard to practice when you can't think straight and all your inhibitions are turned off. Porn doesn't do this, I don't think. My objection is more a matter of the first precept than the third or the fifth.
OK. Some who has no problem with an alcohol addiction and understands what addictive behavior is wonders whether alcohol is banned in Buddhism, posts the question, and you answer by telling him what addictive behavior is.
I think it's clear that anything involving desire clouds the mind. Sexual desire doesn't slow down the reflexes or put one in a stupor, but it does remove inhibitions and it has been shown to adversely affect decision making. Furthermore, it can be triggered without having to manufacture or consume anything, so it's more likely to occur in most people.
Note that I'm not defending porn, I'm just pointing out that there's no evidence that it's addictive and condescending, pitying attitudes towards porn performers don't do them any good.
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/Anguttara-Nikaya/an1-11.htm
(If she cooks like she walks, I'll even eat the scrapings off the pan!)
when has engaging in such activities bought us any true lasting happiness ? In fact they only serve to do the opposite increase our ignorance and self-cherishing the root of all suffering, repeatedly engaging in these actions builds up a habit and it soon becomes difficult to stop and unsatisfactory, no longer giving rise to pleasure, But even pain out of the burden of attachment, still it becomes harder to cease, We dont grasp that by repeating the lie over and over again " I can find happiness and satisfaction here " we are increasing our suffering even for those who are not aware that they are doing this, eventually once such things no longer give us te thrill we seek delusion moves our object of attachment to heavier sometimes darker thrills, and so on and so on...Habitually feeding our ignorance out of attachment will only create more suffering futher down the line.
Such actions are not skillful and do not lead us to any happiness, a temporary reduction of previous manifest suffering but even this is deceptive as when we feed our hunger it only becomes stronger and will never be sated with the amount it is given, It shall always seek more.
Skillful on the path to freedom from suffering ? Awnser NO.
Attachments that use batteries?
Then eventually I decided that I'm gonna do myself whenever I want and look at whatever I want while I do that. I decided to accept my sex drive as an important part of me and not try and suppress it or change it. That worked out pretty well. The frequency actually decreased and, more importantly, the immensely negative mental states that used to result from "failures" to abstain vanished, making me a happier person...
Now of course if you secretly masturbate to porn while living with a sexual partner, there's probably a problem. But I don't think that's a problem with masturbation or porn-- I think the problem is with your relationship. I think looking at porn in and of itself is a neutral behaviour, unless it takes hours and hours every week and thus consumes a good part of your life.
...One clue that supports my stance. If you google "pornography addiction" you'll get a whole bunch of Christian-oriented websites. That implies that pornography becomes a problem when you think sexuality should be strictly controlled (Christian position). It's when you mess with your nature that you start messing yourself up.
that's some heavy $%^@&*(
The idea of porn addiction is dubious basically because there's no good evidence that porn addiction occurs. Porn is also highly variable. It is one thing in one place or time and another thing in another place or time. It's hard to argue that something is addictive if you can't pin down what it is.
"Nature" is a bit like porn; undefinable. There is a built in mechanism for releasing opioids in the brain when one's genitalia are stimulated. Our preference for partners of one sex or the other or some combination seems to be partly genetic. Everything else is learned behavior. It's as natural to avoid sex as it is to pursue it, although those opioids do bias us in the direction of pursuit.
It's also common to obsess over desirable things that are forbidden.
heh heh. I see the complications of sexual energy as very complicated. I am 61 years old and my last encounter with a man (I female) was in 1987 and I think after all this time I am likeing my celebacie. (sp) But I can understand how it can be so worrisome especially in this day and age where this is all you see weather you turn on the TV or open virtually any mainstream magazine. Young beautiful women trying to sell you something, and trying to sell it to you as though if you buy that product, your sexual lives will improve or if you buy that product sex will be included.
When reading or dealing with religious rules and ideas, it's invaluable to have the time and place of the religious rules and ideas in mind. Furthermore you should have your own cultural background in mind. Thus you will avoid drawing false conclusions or be deluded by worth- and meaningless babble.
The porn/sex/masturbation-talk is a leftover from a period, where that talk was especially relevant. Christianity is responsible for the over-focusing on sex in the west. By the Christian Church rules on sexual conduct was (and is) not only used as a guide to avoid harming others or not contracting diseases or producing way more children than you can feed, but also to keep the sheep in the flock. Sex became some of the worst crimes you could commit. And the Ministers and thunder priests knew that people would NEVER be able to control their sexual desires. And fortunately the Church was the only place of absolution.
Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it. I don't believe that even the most vigilant of monks never indulge in masturbation.
So for ones own sake, the issue is best left in its natural state - something to have a little time alone with.
On the porn-side, I think RenGalskap has said was needs to be said. I will add that I do not support the exploitation of women or men. I will also add, that I have a girlfriend who likes it rough enough - it's not only in movies you'll find that.