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How enlightened are you and how enlightened do you want to be?
thickpaper
Veteran
Hi
I just made a joke in another post about ranking one's enlightenment from 0 to 10.
Then it struck me that we could also rank how enlightened we want to be in this life, again on a scale of 0 to 10, which really is a more interesting number.
So, the singular purpose of this thread, only for those who want to do it - just for the fun of it, and certainly not for naysayers and dogma dishers and absolutly not for the over serious....
How enlightened are you now and how enlightened do you want to be(0-10)?
me 5,5.9
namaste!:)
I just made a joke in another post about ranking one's enlightenment from 0 to 10.
Then it struck me that we could also rank how enlightened we want to be in this life, again on a scale of 0 to 10, which really is a more interesting number.
So, the singular purpose of this thread, only for those who want to do it - just for the fun of it, and certainly not for naysayers and dogma dishers and absolutly not for the over serious....
How enlightened are you now and how enlightened do you want to be(0-10)?
me 5,5.9
namaste!:)
0
Comments
Actually I think I was being over ambitious with the high five, I am probably a low to medium five, say, 5.2.
If you were a 4 rather than your current 10 I think we would peobably get it on more, spiritually speaking. I guess the fastest way to drop from a 10 to a 4 is to watch more TV. Good luck coming down!
namaste!
You started the silly with your predictable 11, I was trying to be light-hearted. geepers... lighten up and maybe answer the question seriously, how enlightened do you really think you are right now?
I think I am a five, I think based just on my considerations, that anyone who gets the four noble truths and dependent origination and tries to practice the path diligently would be a five.
I imagine based on reading that there are people here who's understanding and experience is greater than mine, so they would be higher... and so on.
So again, hows about you?
If a blade of grass were 1 out of 10 then I am probably 9 out of 10 enlightened.
Compared to a Buddha (10) I am probably not even 1 out of 10.
As far as "getting" the Four Noble Truths, perhaps you should clarify what you mean.
Anyone who picks up a book on Buddhism and has a bit of a chat on an online forum can "get it" pretty easily - Pali scholars may "get" (i.e. understand intellectually) the Four Noble Truths better than most people alive today, but does that mean their actions of body, speech and mind are any more skilful for it? Maybe, maybe not.
Or do you mean seeing directly the Four Noble Truths and having established Right View when you say "get the Four Noble Truths" (i.e. a Stream-Enterer). In that case that is pretty close to enlightenment (at most only 7 more lifetimes, which is nothing compared to the "countless lifetimes" we have already spent in Samsara) so I'd say Stream Enterers are 9.9999999999999999999/10 enlightened.
So, because of the above reasons (and the fact that grading how enlightened we are encourages conceit) I can't see how the whole "how enlightened are you on a scale of 1-10?" question can be taken seriously.
I would say no, that's not in the spirit of the game, 10 is your maximum possible level of enlightenment. it isn't relative outside of you:)
Well understanding why they are true (annica and anataman and dukka) and understanding why the noble Eightfold path is the supreme - though not only - method for suffering reduction and increasing nonself illumination:)
Of course, this involves an understanding of all other core dharmic concepts like karma, DO, aggregate mind...
Dharma aint rocket science and it aint majic.
No, its self limiting in fact.If one doesnt, for example, appreciate the moral aspect of the path, and understand why it is like that, then they cant really be said to understand the four noble truths. the same with any ofther aspect.
Maybe that interpretation is wrong? maybe "stream enterer" means one who understands that all reality is is a stream of interconnected changes, nothing more, and thus can live their life fully at peace in that stream of inevitable, empty change?
How can we measure at all? We might know we are progressing in Dhamma but how can we quantify by how much, compared to what starting point, how do we know how far we have to go?
"Inspiration from Enlightened Nuns", by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Access to Insight, May 26, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/jootla/wheel349.html
Ok, so about a 7 then, thanks:)
and think i'll be a 8-9 eventually, unless i die before getting there.
but this is very personnal, a 2 is a 8 for another person. Would be interesting to actually create a proper chart based on certain events that happen when going through meditation.
Like let say the Jhanas, if you have experienced the first jhana, this could be a 2.
If you have experienced the 4th Jhana it could be a 6...
...but I don't like to talk about it (blush).
What happened?
I went to Sicily. The people there live in countryside so beautiful that one place I saw made me cry and I was rooted to the spot. I couln't believe
how beautiful it was. Bizarrely perhaps.
But then, to balance the beauty the was Etna. 3500 metres high, covered in snow and presiding over things like an old, mute, dictator.
I suffer from acute anxiety and I am someone who always wants to control everything. I realised in that harsh and amazing landscape I control absolutely nothing in life; not me not others and not nature.
Nature taught me a lesson last week. So now I qualify for 3.5 out of 10
How much I'd like to rate... I want to say what a brilliantly phrased question.
I also want to say I haven't a clue ;-)
I remember reading in a book on the life of the Buddha (sorry, don't remember the author, but I remember the information very well) ... the Buddha had attained samadhi in meditation, but it did not last once he stopped meditating. Therefore, samadhi could not be the Truth, because once one has known the Truth they cannot "un-know" it.
btw about these for a scale?:
The Sixteen Stages of Insight
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html
ps: read the "Note to the reader" before reading further as it contain a warning"
From the diamond sutra:
"What do you think, Subhuti? Is it possible to grasp the Tathagata by means of bodily signs?"
"No, World-Honored One. When the Tathagata speaks of bodily signs, there are no signs being talked about."
The Buddha said to Subhuti, "In a place where there is something that can be distinguished by signs, in that place there is deception. If you can see the signless nature of signs, then you can see the Tathagata."
Yuck! Classic and I couldn't agree more. Alright boys, lets pull out the johnsons and see which is longest. Whoohoo!
Yawn.
I know it can easily sound like a childish thing but actually i think it can possibly be an okay thing to do if you don't judge it too fast
I think after getting some benefit out of your practice, it is possible to start thinking about how great you did and how much better off you are compared to where you have been... forgetting how much farther you can go, and perhaps slacking off a bit and slowly going back to your old habits...
Couldn't this be a humbling experience instead of a competition?
or not
Oh well.
Maybe later I'll meditate to 9 to even out my average.
~ AD
I would imagine, that one thing about even a modicum of enlightenment will bestow is a sense of calmness and peace which, judging by your roller coaster ride yesterday, is not something you quite have yet.
Have you tried St John's Wort?
namaste
By all means have fun, really....
But 'Buddhism for beginners' really is no place to discuss varying degrees of perfect.
The 2 points I gave myself, came from at least having FOUND Buddhism and meditation in my lifetime and studying it and trying to apply it to daily life.. The extra point is for actually keeping a regular meditation practice. But I have a lot of work to do in my daily life application of the precepts and Eightfold Path.
As far as how high I'd LIKE to be, I'd say a perfect 10, become a buddha and help others! hahaha, yeah right!
Why not? Seriously, why can't you realize what the Buddha realized when he became known as the Buddha? Do you really think its so far from your capabilities? The Buddha was constantly encouraging his disciples saying (things to the effect of) "What I have done, you can do too! Go on! Just do it!" and they did! He was right, thousands of his disciples (just within his lifetime, there have probably been millions since) have become fully enlightened Arahants! Some of these Arahants used to be people of low intelligence, people with physical deformities, lepers, prostitutes, serial killers - I am sure if the Buddha was alive today he'd be telling us the same thing. So, I ask, why not you?
I DO think it's extremely beyond my reach. I have a hard enough time trying to be normal! Let alone enlightened. Maybe in a future life tho.
LOL, I am certainly Arahant material then. This made me laugh out loud but at the same time it's inspiring.
your ability to be "normal" has nothing to do with your potential for enlightenment.
If anything, if you got "lucky" and your brain was conditionned in such a way that you will encounter very little suffering in your life, chances are that you will never grow an interest in spirituality and Buddhism and it will minimize your chances of walking the path.
There are many stories in Buddhism where one, after suffering greatly in his life, got enlighten very fast.
Because of their deep experiences, their mind were open and ready to recieve the teaching.
While what you propose is a nice ideal and if you can help bring about a world of enlightened beings then that would be great...but can you? Is it possible to make people want to be enlightened?
In my limited experience as a meditator I know how difficult it can be (definitely the most challenging task I have ever undertaken) to work on purifying my own mind, let alone anyone else's mind. It can be hard enough trying to find out in what way we are deluded, even with the help of good friends, how much harder (dare I say impossible) is it going to be convincing someone else (who thinks their mind is already pure and who has no interest in meditation) that they've got some work to do.
This may sound pessimistic but I would say that it is far more realistic and practical to try to help ourselves first. By freeing our own minds of greed, hatred and delusion we are doing the very best thing to help the world. If we can become fully enlightened in this lifetime then we have the best chance of helping others do the same, and even then, only those who want the help. Even the Buddha was unsuccessful in some of his attempts and he was by far the wisest and most compassionate teacher we have had!
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."
Having said all this though we can still TRY to help others and we probably should, but lets not expect others to always listen to us or agree with us.
With Metta,
Guy
I agree with you here. This sounds more like the Christian mindset of trying to convert everyone they lay eyes upon. Not for me and this is one of the reasons I found Buddhism so different and refreshing. Nobody ever tried or I haven't even heard of a Buddhist trying to convert others with that same amount of pressure and lack of respect for personal space and individuallity as Christians do.
If "Buddhist ideals" mean doctrine and telling people what to think and what the Buddha taught, I agree.
if it means teaching the four noble truths and "question everything be your own light" I cant think of a better thing for humanity....
If they want...yes, most definitely.
Religious freedom is important. I think individuals should have the right to pursue whatever religion or spiritual path they choose and I also think this should include the right to be agnostic or atheist. This is the case where I live in Australia. If you want to be Buddhist or even become a monk or a nun you have the right to do so. Not everyone wants to follow this path though and I respect their right to follow whatever religious path (or lack thereof) they choose to so long as it does not interfere with anyone else's basic human rights.
There is a tendency when we are new to something, especially something as powerful as the teachings of the Buddha, to become very obsessed about it. There is nothing inherently wrong with being obsessed about Dhamma, I'd even say its potentially very useful, but it can become a problem if that obsession gives us tunnel vision. To say that one path is what everyone should do, and to try to make that part of the law, simply because it makes sense to us is dogmatic and leads to all kinds of problems which are visible in the world today.
So, to summarise, it is wonderful to be enthusiastic about the Dhamma, but lets be careful not to become religious zealots.
With Metta,
Guy
So instead I'll pass along a way I think about enlightenment. Enlightenment can be of complete liberation in the Buddhist way, or it can be the level of self-centered action, or selfishness. Those who act in selfless fashion, we remember as saints (Jesus, Buddha).....those who are completely selfish, as something quite else (Hitler). Most of us are 'in between' these extremes of 'self'.
The thought arose 'It is not what you believe, but what you do'; whether you believe there are people in the world, or that there is a God at work, or that reality is empty.....
There is a very compassionate and selfless Christian woman that I know that is far more enlightened in deed than I have ever been. It doesn't matter if I think she may not have the same grasp of reality, but only what she 'does', or her karma that actually has purpose to create better conditions outside of the sole aggregates that comprise the body. So.....I want to be enlightened in that way, I guess to finally answer the question after all.
Namaste
Is Hitler completely selfish?
One thing I have learnt from Ajahn Brahm is that there is a huge difference between calling a person selfish (or whatever else you want to call them) and calling their actions (of body, speech, mind) selfish. The former implies that the entire being is a certain way, whether good or bad, and that's that, end of story. The latter is much more true to reality. Even Angulimala, after he met the Buddha, stopped killing people, totally reformed and became one of the Arahants.
How enlightened, on a scale of 1 - 10, is the author of this beautiful poem?
With Metta,
Guy
The examples were just examples. The only thing it was all meant to get across is 'It is not what you believe [or think], but what you do.' (that matters).
A man who is born in the woods, interacts only with the plants and wildlife in the forest, and dies.....has almost not lived at all. Their body will decompose, giving food to the forest insects/animals, food to the plant life, perhaps other materials.....and what of all they have thought or believed about life? Where has that now gone? In 2500 years, will people still remember his name or be affected by him?
There is still a stream that is 'of' the aggregates, that life and change that can come of the aggregates transforming, but the deeds that affect that which is 'external' to the aggregates carry far, far greater weight.
Namaste
2. 2,000,003
How enlightened do you want to be: 0
I can certainly see where you're coming from. Spiritual development would seem to be a fundamental right for all individuals.
The problem is that we are all at different stages of spiritual evolution. Many humans won't want, much less be able, to lead more spiritual lives. Many humans are far too concerned with the basic daily struggle for survival and don't have the luxury of engaging in spiritual development.
But the biggest obstacle, as others pointed out, to equal societal spiritual evolution is the fact that each individual only has control over their own mind and no control whatsoever over the mind of anyone else. And this is exactly as it should be.
As far as making it a part of law, many countries already have laws protecting religious freedom which is essential for any just society, as you know. But the rest is up to the individual.
The world is at it is. We must do what's in our power to make it a better, more just place. At the same time we must learn to accept it as it is and understand that as unjust, cruel, and brutal as it so often is, it is just this kind of environment that will spur some humans to find solutions to their suffering. Things are just as they are. As Ajahn Chah would say, why would we expect things to be any different?
As for the original question, I really have no idea about the first half but as far as the second half goes, I want to be become fully enlightened and I'm going to do everything in my power to become so. I'm sick of suffering. I'm sick of not being able to help myself or my fellow human. I want major, fundamental change no matter how long it takes me.