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Attending NKT meditation/events - feel uncomfortableHi there, I'm new Before I start
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Disputed so called facts with little if yet doctored evidence.
And yes calling down peoples teachers As politicised demon worshippers happens to be very shameful. Sectarian...:(
You should stop drinking the Kool aid friend.
To label someone who has gone out of his way to receive teachings from as many lineages as possible as a sectarian is just crazy.
The simple truth is that you have been deceived, and that, is shameful.
Maybe you should recognize the fact that the practice promoted by your cult has always existed for no other purpose than to violently oppose any and all non-Gelug teachers, practitioners, and teachings.
Why would you choose to keep wearing the blinders and playing the victim?
Your posts have cult red-flags all over them.
More ad hominem. What's your point?
Why is one lineage not good enough for you ?
Seems like bashing prominent Gelugpa lineage Lamas qualifies as sectarian, Not to mention bashing their practises as well. you certainly show an intolerance at that.
Where is the spirit of equnimity and compassion for others ? Surely with all the sects you've studied you must have perfected that by now ?
Such a shame that continued language is used to justify your own intolerance toward those you disagree with.
How sad, Oh by the way Phabongkhapa wrote some amazing works on Lam rim that you might like to take a look at particularly around the sections of cherishing others.
Be well friend.
I have read his lam rim works and they are quite good.
Any lineage is sufficient but I want to be well informed, so I explored others. Actually, I was quite inspired by Tsogkhapa and the rime movement and that is why I made the decision to explore other lineages.
What I am unwilling to tolerate is when someone has been given blatant misinformation that is entirely based on sectarianism and hatred and then tries to use that information to promote their cult or accuse others of sectarianism.
You might not read it as such, but I actually have a great deal of compassion for you and others who have been spoon fed propaganda and blatant lies by the NKT and their supporters.
I am confident that someday you will leave this nonsense behind.
I only hope that the experience of being in a cult doesnt make you turn away from the dharma entirely.
Blatant misinfortmation ? I think not.
It seems as if you know very little with regards to the actual lineage of the Gelugpa tradition, Or even what it was like before the personality of the Dalai lama took to the forefront. Such insults about the great Dechen Nyingpo bring heavy hearts upon all the gelugpa who hold him to be a primary benifactor and fully enlightened being.
As for Je Phabongkhapa's apparent sectarianism it would be a blatent contridiction to accounts of his many disciples and great Gelugpa teachers of this age.
The only nonsense that needs to be ceased is this continued Abandoning of Dharma by attacking the Lineage of Je Phabongkhapa and his disciples and their disciples in turn.
It is a very sad day when Dharma practitoners forget how to practise... :(One of the most fundemental basis of training the mind stems from morale conduct, In such Right speech should always be maintained refraining from Harsh and divisive speech also entails training the mind, as well as refraining from speech that causes schisms within the Sangha as you are attempting to do by repeating unsavoury words against the NKT.
A cult is a false or unorthodox religion, The NKT is none of this but rather the lineage teachings from Trijang Dorjechang, and principly Je Phabongkhapa the accusation you make also entails that all the other Gelugpa schools who follow the lineage as well...all having Je Phabongkhapa as their principle source of Dharma transmition are false or an unorthodox transmition of Dharma...:(
Again you are acting in a Sectarian manner that is not befitting for a Dharma practitoner.
Be well.
Really weird response Caz.
I'm not "attacking" the lineage of Pabongkha.
I'm not "attacking" anyone.
I am merely discussing Pabongkha's political involvement and gyalpo worship.
Your post is nothing more than text book "we are being persecuted" cult nonsense.
You are simply regurgitating what you have been told by a source that lacks any credibility.
Someday you will reflect on your parroting and recognize how clearly you have been manipulated.
There are so many legitimate Gelug sangha's with great teachers. Why would you so adamantly defend the one that is widely recognized as illegitimate and as a cult?
The reason is that you are a victim.
Handle tantric practice with great care, and don't make irreversible commitments with a guru you've known for less than a decade. Yes, that's what the traditional texts say, ten full years.
Again...Gyalpo worship Phabongkhapa propigated no such thing, By claiming such you are saying he has no authentic refuge ! The very stem of your accusation would have profound implications upon the whole Gelugpa tradition. :rolleyes:
Im not as blind to beleive things simply because they are told to me unlike some i actually investigate the various claims and so forth, And personal experience sure as hell doesnt back up the BS claims from many saviour seekers who may have bad experiences with people because of their own projections ( Apologys to the ones who have had genuine misfortunes, No organisation is perfect ). Again you actually know very little about the Gelugpa if you remember into the past Geshe-la once had the approval of the DL even a forward in one of his own books. Your claims are baseless and out of repeated ignorance.
Such a shame.
Be well.
It is a very complex issue, and not one to be considered lightly.
I don't agree with hoping for the "passing" (death) of the Dalai Lama, thus ending the debate. My hope is that there will be a peaceful resolution to this controversy. If the Dalai Lama has spoken against these practices, there must be a reason.
Those who promote violence against others because of their beliefs are not doing so in the name of the dharma, and I've never heard or read of an instance where the Dalai Lama advocated violence or hatred towards Shugden practitioners.
It's a very sad situation.
Fiver, you are not being honest.
You said caz's lineage guru was a demon worshipper and offered no evidence for such. he called that sectarian, and so it is.
incorrect, it is possible to gain experience of the lineage represented by the NKT, but he has not done this. What reasons? sectarianism.
unsubstantiated accusation
harsh speech, unsubnstantaited, angry name calling
in short: not a great post
However, it is good for people to actually see what goes on in this debate. Let's make it all public, let's see who is cultlike agressive and repressive.
I think you do not actually understand the meaning of ad hominem.
this post attacks sectarian and shameful behavior. ad hominem attacks the person.
study up kid.
Rule of thumb: Don't trust anyone "just because". His Holiness isn't above the use of rhetoric: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet_%281950%E2%80%93present%29#Ethnic_composition
That's... debatable. It's actually a matter of skillfulness, but I'm sure we can all agree the current situation isn't doing much to help all sentient beings reach enlightenment.
It's the classic Tibetan situation. This is what Tibetan Buddhism has always been like. Profound teachings embroiled in controversy because of human fallibility and involvement in politics.
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dorje-shugden-documentary/
is this a credible statment?
Shenpen says: "Maybe you should recognize the fact that the practice promoted by your cult has always existed for no other purpose than to violently oppose any and all non-Gelug teachers, practitioners, and teachings....Your post is nothing more than text book "we are being persecuted" cult nonsense....You are simply regurgitating what you have been told by a source that lacks any credibility....Someday you will reflect on your parroting and recognize how clearly you have been manipulated....Why would you so adamantly defend the one that is widely recognized as illegitimate and as a cult?....The reason is that you are a victim.....What I am unwilling to tolerate is when someone has been given blatant misinformation that is entirely based on sectarianism and hatred and then tries to use that information to promote their cult or accuse others of sectarianism....you and others who have been spoon fed propaganda and blatant lies by the NKT and their supporters."
sure, that's not an attack, not at all!
Isn't ironic, caz, that Shenpen has a quote about being civil in his own signature, yet can't practice what he preaches?
I know its not an attack.
Whats your point?
As far a the quote in my signature is concerned, I havent contradicted it.
Just because I am willing to openly disagree with the brainwashing that cult members are being fed doesnt mean I am not civil.
Do you actually believe anything that is on that website?
are you suggesting that anyone here is ?
wouldn't that be wonderful?
well, there is always a reason.
I've got some lovely videos to show you! the Dalai Lama has known that there is violence being perpetrated upon these people in his name, but he has never even said "what these people are doing is wrong, but don't attack them."
He knows aboutit , and his not speaking out is tacit support. He has also encouraged people to ban them from hospitals schools and monasteries, and he is recorded saying such. he also levels vieled threats such as "it will be bad if as a last resort we have to come knocking on your doors..." and "It will be like the cultural revolution for you if you do not heed my advice..."
sad indeed.
my point is that it is an attack, as anyone can see.
you certainly have contradicted your signature. No-one is disagreeing with your right to openly disagree, but since you are name calling we can say you are definitely not being civil.
You are obviously emotionally involved, and so perhaps what I am saying does not convince you, but everyone who is not invested in the same way can see the clear truth of what I am saying.
He asked that people give up the practice and he had very good reasons for doing so.
The history of the practice is controversial, explicitly sectarian, and harmful.
The persecution line is totally bogus.
If you people will take my advice, don't trust anything, and I mean ANYTHING either side says about this issue on face value.
Name calling? I dont think so.
Unfortunatly So CC
And with the Cult accusations as well, Very rude.
Its such a shame to see Dharma practitoners violate Fundementals of right speech.
And yes Shenpen that website is more then reliable for the documented abuses over the years.
Please learn to be civil...name calling is not Buddhist please Dharma Brother practise in accordence with Right speech.
Not my accusation.
That website is profoundly inaccurate both in terms of history and the current situation.
Is pretty sad and scary that you actually believe it.
You're getting quite good at playing the victim.
Warren Jeffs would be proud.
Very sad. If this is not you accusation why are you repeating it ? It would be no suprise if you have no personal experience with the NKT at all but are merely repeating rumours as most from E-sangha have been taught to do :eekblue:
The point trying to be made Shenpen is that you are unfortunatly being conditioned to be Vitrolically sectarian and then pretend that what you say isnt ? Who has taught you such things ? It is not Buddhadharma.
Saddening from the depths of my heart.
as you wish. We'll leave it to the individual to make up his or her mind.
Let me know when you decide to leave.
agree.
caz
the intersting thing is that he doesn't think he is being sectarian!'
:rolleyes:
I know.
Its really that simple.
Ah i see thanks for making your views clear. :sadc:
Does make you anyless sectarian though :tonguec:
Ask me about any non-cult tradition of Buddhism and I will honestly tell you how I feel and it wont be sectarian at all. There may be things that i wouldnt agree with interpretation or doctrine-wise, but it wont be sectarianism.
Yes, you did - on your very first post, when you mysteriously showed up on the forum to defend the controversial topic at hand:
I don't know how else to interpret your statement.
I said there must be a reason; however I don't know what his reasons are aside from what I've read about. It's difficult to determine truth from fiction in matters like this. I'd like to believe that he will eventually speak out and unify the opposing groups. It is very complex and strange, but in the light of all the problems between China and Tibet, there are many issues I don't fully understand.
the tradition passed down from Trijang Dorjechang to Zong Rinpoche, Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Rabten, Serkong Dorjechang, Domo Geshe Rinpoche Geshe Kelsang, Lati Rinpoche, Geshe Sopa, Gelek Rinpoche, Khen Rinpoche Losang Tharchin, Gangchen Rinpoche, Many Ganden tripas, many Sakys Tris, etc etc etc ......being called illegitimate by a practitioner of another lineage may as well be the definition of sectarianism.
Thats not what I am saying at all.
Some of those people are teachers of mine and the lineages of Tsongkhapa and Sakya Pandita etc. that they transmit are completely legitimate.
I am only referring to the group known as the NKT and their current status.
Also, what makes you think I am a "practitioner of another lineage"?
sure you do. It is a statement of fact that this will happen, there is not even the slightest suggestion that this is hoped for. I think you will try to "win" this debate at any cost, and it does not reflect well on your motives, I think.
That would be great. May the Dalai Lama have a long and happy life filled with harmony.
but surely you understand that Geshe Kelsang and his orgainization the NKT is a past of that lineage? he is praised highly by his teachers like Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Dorjechang as a realized master.
Surely if his own gurus approve of him you can go along?
I know for a fact that Lama Zopa Rinpoche is supporting the Dalai Lama in this matter and has ceased this practice.
As I understand it, what the Dalai Lama said is that he will not give empowerments or initiations to those who continue to worship Shugden, but that people may choose to do so if that is their belief. How is that different from any other requirements or following other orders of a teacher? If a teacher says, "Don't do this practice if you wish to receive teachings from me," then you can continue to do so if you don't agree with it, but are choosing to move away from their teachings.
The violence perpetrated towards Shugden practitioners by Dalai Lama supporters was not advocated by the TGIE as far as I know. Those who choose to be violent are acting in ways that is not supportive to the well-being or personal freedoms of others.
I think he's made his views clear...The sectarian often dont know they are behaving in this way, and then deny they are behaving in this way, and then try to justify their behaving in this way by making ridiculous accusations when they cant defend their position of pretending that what they have just said is not sectarian.
You where right though earlier Shenpen i shouldnt play the victim, Instead i should do as advised in Bodhisattvas way of life by repaying your harm by helping you.
Now about to do a Tsog offering adding to prayer list to heal the sick.
They are no longer a part of the mainstream Gelug sangha.
Lama Zopa's words.
How did he casue a schism in the sangha? It was the Dalai Lama who forbade the practices of his own root guru and banned those who held to their teachers advice, wasn't it?
:rolleyes: