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Attending NKT meditation/events - feel uncomfortableHi there, I'm new Before I start
Hi there, I'm new 
Before I start, just to clarify, I haven't had any 'bad experience' with the NKT....I just have ongoing problems accepting certain behaviours and teachings.
'Suffering' isn't explained properly. I love this human life and I don't know what will come at the end of it. I want to live NOW and I accept that not everything is going to be pretty and externally peaceful, but I still love it and cherish it. When I'm told that every aspect of human life is suffering, without further explanation that this is the closest translation of the word 'dukkha' (meaning 'that which is difficult to bear' - please correct me if I'm wrong) it just seems so negative and defeatist. To me, suffering is what comes after 'that which is difficult to bear' depending if someone allows themselves to suffer or not. In NKT teachings, it is worded clumsily and explained badly. I know others have different beliefs to me regards this human life and other lives, but surely it's clearly to see that all we have is now? I find a massive conflict between mindfulness/being in the now and the prospect of future lives, but that's just me. Either way, I can't understand why human life is made out be very simple and ignorant and even a little bit shit!
I'm very much of the mind that NOW is all we have and is the most important thing. I'm not too sure of future/previous lives' existence but i don't think too much on it because I don't want my compassion to be driven by promise of future salvation, but more because when I live in the present moment, my true nature is to be compassionate anyway. The NKT teachings are v-e-r-y centred around the future and rebirth, is this the case with all Buddhist teachings?
They seem 'removed' from everyday life, and too concerned with being/appearing as 'good buddhists'. A question was raised one day as to whether, if you had to make a choice, you should help your neighbours/community (cutting an elderly' neighbour's lawn for example) or attend the centre. Obviously doing both was the preferred action, but a teacher replied that attending the centre should always take precedence over helping those outside the NKT community. His explanation was that, ultimately, the centre will provide salvation of all, whereas helping a neighbour won't. In my own personal opinion, helping any living being with a good intent is much more valuable than sitting for hours analysing one of the paragraphs from GKG's books, as good and insightful as they are.
Finally, the 'event' that really made me wonder was at a teaching a couple of weeks ago. There was about 15-20 of the NKT community sitting listening to the teaching when some unusual noises came from outside (we were right by the garden area with the windows open)....it was hard to work out what they were but it sounded most like an animal in a lot of pain (although it could have been something else and I accepted this, it was one of those 'better safe than sorry' moments). No-one else seemed to be doing anything, so after exchanging a worried glance with two other members of the group, I stood up and interrupted the teaching to go outside and check. The two other members joined me outside, where the noises had subsided somewhat. The noises appeared to be coming from the back garden of a house round the corner, so we drove round and to cut a long story short it ended up being some over-excited teenage girls in the back garden. Although I'm still not sure, because the sounds were that strange. Anyway, when we returned to the centre, I was (jokingly) called a 'drama queen' by one person, another said she 'thought the sound was loud seagulls but couldn't be sure' and another said she 'just prayed loads to Tara that it would all be ok'. These were all people heavily involved with the centre, NKT members for several years. I personally 'wasn't sure' what the sounds were, but like hell I was going to sit tight when there was even a 1% chance that something was in pain out there! The fact that the person who prayed to Tara was praying to Tara was because she also recognised that the sound sounded like an animal in pain, right? So rather than take action, she just sat and prayed? I could not have forced myself to stay seated, such was my compassion at that moment. Myself and another girl (who had joined me outside) were both shocked that everyone else had sat and taken no action, nor said anything, and appeared slightly shocked when I took action. We didn't say anything further on it, we're both big animal lovers, so I thought maybe we were taking it out of context, but still a few weeks later it's bothering me!
I don't want to bring these issues up at the centre, because I've witnessed similar people showing minor objections and being told it's 'their mind'.
Just any thoughts or guidance would be really appreciated. I do find lots of the teachings/meditations helpful....it's just these few issues that raise a lot of questions for me...
Before I start, just to clarify, I haven't had any 'bad experience' with the NKT....I just have ongoing problems accepting certain behaviours and teachings.
'Suffering' isn't explained properly. I love this human life and I don't know what will come at the end of it. I want to live NOW and I accept that not everything is going to be pretty and externally peaceful, but I still love it and cherish it. When I'm told that every aspect of human life is suffering, without further explanation that this is the closest translation of the word 'dukkha' (meaning 'that which is difficult to bear' - please correct me if I'm wrong
) it just seems so negative and defeatist. To me, suffering is what comes after 'that which is difficult to bear' depending if someone allows themselves to suffer or not. In NKT teachings, it is worded clumsily and explained badly. I know others have different beliefs to me regards this human life and other lives, but surely it's clearly to see that all we have is now? I find a massive conflict between mindfulness/being in the now and the prospect of future lives, but that's just me. Either way, I can't understand why human life is made out be very simple and ignorant and even a little bit shit!I'm very much of the mind that NOW is all we have and is the most important thing. I'm not too sure of future/previous lives' existence but i don't think too much on it because I don't want my compassion to be driven by promise of future salvation, but more because when I live in the present moment, my true nature is to be compassionate anyway. The NKT teachings are v-e-r-y centred around the future and rebirth, is this the case with all Buddhist teachings?
They seem 'removed' from everyday life, and too concerned with being/appearing as 'good buddhists'. A question was raised one day as to whether, if you had to make a choice, you should help your neighbours/community (cutting an elderly' neighbour's lawn for example) or attend the centre. Obviously doing both was the preferred action, but a teacher replied that attending the centre should always take precedence over helping those outside the NKT community. His explanation was that, ultimately, the centre will provide salvation of all, whereas helping a neighbour won't. In my own personal opinion, helping any living being with a good intent is much more valuable than sitting for hours analysing one of the paragraphs from GKG's books, as good and insightful as they are.
Finally, the 'event' that really made me wonder was at a teaching a couple of weeks ago. There was about 15-20 of the NKT community sitting listening to the teaching when some unusual noises came from outside (we were right by the garden area with the windows open)....it was hard to work out what they were but it sounded most like an animal in a lot of pain (although it could have been something else and I accepted this, it was one of those 'better safe than sorry' moments). No-one else seemed to be doing anything, so after exchanging a worried glance with two other members of the group, I stood up and interrupted the teaching to go outside and check. The two other members joined me outside, where the noises had subsided somewhat. The noises appeared to be coming from the back garden of a house round the corner, so we drove round and to cut a long story short it ended up being some over-excited teenage girls in the back garden. Although I'm still not sure, because the sounds were that strange. Anyway, when we returned to the centre, I was (jokingly) called a 'drama queen' by one person, another said she 'thought the sound was loud seagulls but couldn't be sure' and another said she 'just prayed loads to Tara that it would all be ok'. These were all people heavily involved with the centre, NKT members for several years. I personally 'wasn't sure' what the sounds were, but like hell I was going to sit tight when there was even a 1% chance that something was in pain out there! The fact that the person who prayed to Tara was praying to Tara was because she also recognised that the sound sounded like an animal in pain, right? So rather than take action, she just sat and prayed? I could not have forced myself to stay seated, such was my compassion at that moment. Myself and another girl (who had joined me outside) were both shocked that everyone else had sat and taken no action, nor said anything, and appeared slightly shocked when I took action. We didn't say anything further on it, we're both big animal lovers, so I thought maybe we were taking it out of context, but still a few weeks later it's bothering me!
I don't want to bring these issues up at the centre, because I've witnessed similar people showing minor objections and being told it's 'their mind'.
Just any thoughts or guidance would be really appreciated. I do find lots of the teachings/meditations helpful....it's just these few issues that raise a lot of questions for me...
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Comments
Lojong is more focused on your current situation I think. But if I am not mistaken it is studied after Lam Rim.
Maybe they were joking because it wasn't anything serious? I don't think most people would be joking if it was actually a wounded animal.
The Tara person kind of sucks.
This is not only a NKT thing. If you listen to some monks\nuns talking about suffering, you will hear them saying that our idea of happiness is suffering. In a thread called "My approach to Buddhism" some people seem to hold a similar opinion. :P (I am not saying anybody is wrong, I am just saying I disagree.)
:-\
Oh, well, many people hate on NKT. I personally don't have anything bad to say about them. For me, there are bad buddhists in every tradition, possibly in every center, possibly a large number. What happens is that change is always hard, and if people are not ready for it, Buddhism can't help them. They will just put another name tag on old prejudices and beliefs and call them their God.
If you are looking for a tibetan buddhist approach more focused on the present moment a good idea might be getting material from Pema Chodron (her audio material is priceless :-) ) and maybe seeking a Shambhala center?
Also, the idea of praying to Tara (a Bodhisattva of compassion) as a way to shut out the possibility that you are witnessing pain is just ridiculous.
Thank You for a very comprehensive post, it was easy to understand...... It sounds to me like you are more evolved than the people in the NKT group you are involved with. Please do not take that as an ego building statement, it is meant to tell you that you do not need them. Something you are doing is bringing out your original face. Keep that up. There are many different Buddhist organizations, and you can go and visit them anytime. I think at your stage of development a spiritual friend will show up soon. Someone of like mind. Be willing to open up to them, and i think you will find a kindred spirit.....maybe even a group of people who are much more on the level of development that you are. It sounds like the NKT group is a bit like a cult. They seem to exist to counter other Tibetan traditions...and that usually doesn't fly. I would really consider just not going back. That will maybe influence some others to leave that are having similar doubts. If you choose to stay keep your independence! The Buddha said "Be a light unto yourself."
You really seem to be very compassionate in your deeds, which is fantastic! I can understand the difficulty in not seeing others respond compassionately to possible suffering in others, and with the notion that coming to the center is more important than helping a neighbor, I can certainly see a pattern taking shape.
For me, in my ears, at this point, I don't hear some objective problem that needs to be solved in regards to NKT, however. Rather, in your recollection of the events, I hear all of your hidden judgement for the people around you. I feel you should focus your attention there, because that is certainly what is causing your distress.
Once you overcome that judgement, you might find the people at NKT are in a quite different place than you are, and perhaps you should move on toward people who are more steadfast in their compassion, rather than steadfast in their dedication to the activities of the center. Or you might find something completely different! Who knows? Once you clear up that cloudiness toward your brothers and sisters, perhaps you will naturally outgrow them like old shoes, or naturally embrace them like imperfect practitioners. The information you really need, like your personal attachment to the center, and the way the teaching is working with your life, are difficult to see with that cloudiness.
Unlocking that judgement is as simple as remembering that all people develop at different paces. Their actions do not make them bad people, unloving, or even ignorant... it was just a moment of decision in a vast number of decisions. They might still be holding the honor of the practice above their genuine concern for others, even still, that's ok! What I see in that kind of situation is a buddhing heart, not a blossomed one, but not one that is necessarily growing astray... and I feel with more practice, many of those who would stay seated today would get up tomorrow.
With warmth,
Matt
Have you checked out Zen?
I think if NKT teachings don't work for you, maybe try another tradition. I think it's wonderful that you seem like such a compassionate person Despite what some have said here, praying to Buddhas like Tara is a legitimate way to help living beings, since we often lack the power and skill to do that ourself. That's not to say that we shouldn't take practical action to help others if we can though.
I think it's sad that some of the posters on this thread are engaging in the tediously familiar 'NKT bashing', even though they're probably never set foot in an NKT Centre. The website 'NKTworld' is full of dreadful distortions and shouldn't be trusted at all. It's a shame that the Dalai Lama talks about love, compassion and religious tolerance when his followers often display a considerable amount of sectarian bias.
Without developing a negative mind, simply move on and check out some teachings that might suit you better. Good luck, I hope you find a tradition that suits you.
Sometimes where there's smoke, there's arson
Maybe people tell you it's on fire so you don't pick it up, but if you really checked, you'd find it was cool as a cucumber
And maybe you'd find it was on fire, and others were being loving in noting so.
If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck....:rolleyes:
Enough has been written, reported, stated and recounted (from those having had first-hand experience) to confirm that as 'cool as a cucumber' doesn't cut the mustard, here.
NKT is controversial.
Deservedly so.
i do not believe that you can benefit much from Buddhism if you "disagree" with Dukkha...
I can hardly conceive how can anyone disagree with Dukkha, or the explanation of what suffering is from a buddhist point of view.
Perhaps you can extrapolate about what is your understanding of Dukkha?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/dukkha.html
The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness
http://www.amazon.com/Joy-Living-Unlocking-Science-Happiness/dp/0307347311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277834078&sr=1-1
Article:
Beyond the Brain
http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/health-and-human-body/human-body/mind-brain.html
Website:
About Mingyur Rinpoche
http://tergar.org/about/bio.shtml
Thanks
When I imagine what a Buddha would be like it is someone energetic, committed, focused, full of life, not some "life sucks, I'm gonna get used to it" type of person.
If the Buddha had sat on his hands and just take in suffering while trying to put a smile on his face we wouldn't have the Dharma. Sometimes I think Buddhism gets turned into a low-energy thing. It makes me crazy, seriously. Where is the energy? Where is the challenging spirit? Where is the inspiration? Where is the freaking fire? :rarr:
Have you met a Buddhist teacher who is lifeless and dull? I have not, nor would I consider Buddhism to be a low energy "thing". When you take your car to the mechanic, you ask him to focus on the problems. Its like this we focus on dukkha... not because we view life as miserable and worthless, fire-less, but dukkha is full of rich information that leads us to freedom.... namely it tells us where we are ignorant and where we cling.
Buddhists who are overwhelmed by the notion of dukkha need some more sitting practice, where they could very well learn to deeply respect it, rather than be oppressed by it.
In regards to your crazy, it seems born of an ignorant view. By focusing your attention on your suffering, you may find peace of mind once more.
With warmth,
Matt
I find NKT a little too ritualistic but I heave learnt a lot from sitting and practicing with the group even so. I also like the fact that the NKT make themselves accessible by for example running open classes. This is how I found them and thus found buddhism. Since doing so I have found out (by a lot of research) that there is a Theravada sangha maybe a further 20 miles away, but other buddhist groups in general are so much less accessible to the average joe that they might as well be exclusive clubs = you have to have already found buddhism to even think to search them out and to know what to look for.
I have no opinion in this matter either way because I've been way too busy with other things to look at the subtleties of this issue, and as an American it doesn't matter much to me, at least not as much as it would to an ethnic Tibetan, I guess. So that is just for information purposes and I have no opinion at all about it except that in my old age I stick with HHDL because he has, to me at least, passed the "gold assay test".
Dear Sherab Dorje,
The main reason why the New Kadampa Tradition was started was to create a new presentation of Buddha's teachings that are very suitable for busy Westerners to practise, not due to disagreement with the Dalai Lama. The NKT was founded in 1991, years before the Dorje Shugden controversy really kicked off (which was 1996). However, Geshe Kelsang does say that, because the Dalai Lama has a dual role of politician and religious leader, this has led to the political contamination of Buddhism. This is a general problem; the Dorje Shugden controversy is simply a symptom of it. This is also evident from the history of the Dalai Lama institution from the time of the 5th Dalai Lama - an increasing concern with, what might be called political power and worldly affairs.
Also, I'd like to make the point that it's not just NKT who rely on Dorje Shugden - there are Tibetan Buddhists who still do the practice so the Dalai Lama's view about this Deity has not been universally adopted by the DL's followers.
This is completely untrue.
The practice in question was controversial for a long time before 1996.
It was controversial when Pabhonka attempted to edit the Kangyur in order to justify taking refuge in it, and even before then.
Its nothing new.
I didnt read it as pro anything to be honest.
Sherab, I'm wondering why you posted Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche's books in reference to this topic, as he is part of the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma traditions. Is there a connection you're trying to make or are you just recommending some good books?
I hear lots from many different people, I only work from my own experiences and in the what say 13+ years ive been attending my centre all has been rosey
Not everyones experience is the same some have good others have bad, from my own side ive only had good experiences though.
That's good, unfortunately I've never heard anything positive aside from the few voices on this thread. I'm not making a judgment, just sharing what I've heard from others, as I haven't had any personal experience with this particular sect of Buddhism.
I didn't intend to make any connection. I just think that among the newer Tibetan-lineage books YMR's are good.
You will not often on the internet friend, These past years there has been a culture of continous attack against the NKT where people are encouraged to say negative things, It was the case on E-sangha and it rapidly spread from there.
There are many people who do have very good experiences with the NKT the Dharma is good and is taken from the Lineage instructions of the Great Gelugpa masters, The same masters who taught the Dalai lama in fact, Other then the protector practise and the westernised version of the teachings presentation there is virtually no difference between the teachings of either the Gelugpa practitoners or the NKT.
Not so - how was it controversial? The only people who find it controversial are the 5th, 13th and 14th Dalai Lamas and those who believe them. As it happens, even the 5th Dalai Lama changed his mind later in life, wrote a praise and made a statue of Dorje Shugden, as well as establishing the Trode Khangsar Temple.
Je Pabongkhapa didn't attempt to change anything. There is a lot of negative propaganda against this great Lama, mainly due to jealousy.
Sorry, but this is total bullshit.
Pabongkha was very politically active. He was jailed for trying to alter the kangyur and he made political moves to try to weaken the Rime movement in eastern Tibet.
Many of his writings are around and eventually they will be translated and made public. At which point, people who defend him and the demon that he worshiped will have a whole lot of questions to answer.
Whether or not he was a great master doesnt really matter and I dont really doubt that he was, but to deny his political controversies is either naive or a blatant attempt at concealing the truth.
Talking about known political moves of a early 20th century lama is sectarianism?
Wake up Caz.
Political motives ? I have yet to see any from him he was even offered the Regency of Tibet and he refused because he didnt like politics...
And yes Sectarianism to keep refering to what other people perceive as a Buddha in that manner is very of the mark, By doing such you are only futhering the cause of those who deprive such people who like to give out " Yellow stars " to Shugden adherants in India.
Most sad coming from a Dharma practitoner i must say. :sadc:
I hope you find a legitimate sangha someday .
Its not done a bad job for me so far...Shenpen
I seem to be more proficient at not making posts on the internet that are neither in the spirit of rudness and vitrol against other traditions.
May you be well.
I'm afraid that does sound rather sectarian, calling other's practices demonic.
In fact all the great Gelug lamas of this generation from Lama Yeshe to Zong Rinpoche to Trijang Rinpoche to Geshe Sopa, Lama Zopa, Khen Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten etc etc etc prasie Je Pabongka' s qualities to the sky. When you strongly critisize Pabonka Rinpoche you are criticizing the whole Geluk tradition. Check the words of these great masters yourself here.
It is also beyond dispute that since the seventeeth century, many of the greatest masters of the Sakya tradition practiced the tradition of relying on Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Buddha. The evidence is in their own words, which can be provided.
Let's all practice our traditions and respect the traditions of others. Jigme Lingpa seems like a fine Lama to me, how would you feel if I called him names and dispareged him? You would call me a sectarian, so how about your own words and behavior?
With the passing of the Dalai Lama, you will see an end to this name calling and the traditions will go back to a harmonious co-existence.
In respect and in friendship...
I'm sorry but for your very first post, this seems a little creepy.
As nice as he is friend the politics he engages in creates more worldly trouble.
Anyway to the OP sorry for you to witness all this sectarianism here :sadc: If you dont feel comfortable you could always raise these points with the resident teacher or try and find somewhere else.
Creepiness is so subjective, don't you find?
Yes... subjective... *backing away slowly*
ok, bye bye! Thanks for sharing!
I really do hope this is true and that all this nonsense over Dorje Shugden comes to an end.
Let's pray for the peaceful co-existence of all Buddhist traditions. May everyone be free to rely upon their Gurus without criticism or ostracism.
K THANX
A lovely idea Tsongkhapafan, may everyone have equnimity free from hatred and attachment.
Second that.
it is also quite helpful to note that even lamas from other traditions praised Je Pabongka. For example, Dragshul Trinley Rinchen—the 39th Sakya Trizin (Sakya Throne Holder) had long dicussions wiht Pabonka Rinpoche and praised him saying that he had "wide eyes of Dharma." (Khri chen Drag shul 'Phrin las rin chen (1974), Volume 1, <abbr>p.</abbr> 294.)
Later, Pabongka Rinpoche sent some of his students to recieve teachings and empowerments from this lama.
The sectarian criticism directed at Je Pabongkahas arisen due to lack of understanding, and will soon fade away, as noone likes to hear Buddhists leveling unsubstantiated accusations at one another's gurus.
it's just bad form.
Very true such sectarianism is not in the form of Buddhadharma...Very unskilfull we should all rejoice in the practise of others training the mind not disparge them. :eekblue: