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your diet
who hear is non-veg*n?(veg*n=vegitarian OR vegan, for those who dont know) just curious
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I'm an omnivore most days.
I have a great respect for vegans and vegetarians. I find it far more difficult to tolerate those omnivores who bristle at the sight of mere photographs of the everyday slaughter that brings meat to their tables.
A poll would be cool!
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i think that people are too shielded from their food source as well, though iv met more than a few people who claim they'd to the dirty work themselves with no remorse(though how many of them accualy would, i dono)
i think there is too much a lack to the respect given to the animals that are are sacrificed as food for people, they die for people and in return, jokes and such are made over the remains.
personally im a vegi(soon to be vegan) for this reason as well as the suffering and just plain dont care for the taste of meat, eggs, or milk/cheese much, never have, which is good too me, because i save with not seeking out the expensive meat/dairy alternatives very often :P
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I like seeing this sites overall view of topics.
The poll should be a nice addition!
Ditto. I eat anything my mum puts on the table. No questions asked.
i understand meat is part of the way of nature and such, but what about the cruel treatment at slaughter houses and such?
honestly im kinda surprised by the poll turnout so far, 14-3 in favor of omnis
I was a vegan for 10 years, and quite frankly evolved out of the behavior once I discovered buddhism, because I was exposed by my teacher for my hypocrisy. Deny my father's cooking because it contained gelatin? Eat only vegetables, wear no leather, but drive a car? Judge my friends for eating bacon, yet actively participate in a society filled with greed?
What I have found is that letting go of all of those notions of what I should and should not do brings me closer to the moment, which helps me promote loving behavior. My deep wish is that it extends eventually to farmers and ranchers, butchers and harvesters, policy makers and children... eventually I know it must, as energy moves from areas of high concentration to low concentration. The more potent our compassion, the more quickly it will light the darkest corners of our society. Until then, I choose what feels right in front of me, and hope that it will all work out.
With warmth,
Matt
i eat from a community garden other than milk and cheese which i rarely eat anyways, just sayin. not trying to make you all feel bad or anything, and im not only valuing human life, however, human life in much more generally accepted to be more than an animal's, so i feel that it is they who need the help for now.
and your teacher is wrong, in my opinion. though you perticipate in a society of greed, you do not encurage it, and you have no need to look down at people who would not follow your vegan ways, that would be your own thing, not all vegans/vegi's are like that. yes, deny the cooking that you feel to be wrong. there is nothing wrong about that, you respect your father, but you do not want to partake in meat or meat derivatives. you yourself don't need to eat it, but not eating does not mean you mus judge. by saying this you say that many a buddhist monk is in the wrong, because there are many vegetarian/vegan monks.
in this, you say that to appease people is more important than to save the lives of animals who honestly simply dont need to be killed? not just because there are alternative food sources, but because of the waste, meat that is simply thrown away when some one is full, lives thrown away when people are done with them. again, i am not trying to judge, and im sorry if it comes off that way, i simply am interested in the workings of people minds.
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No worries, you didn't. Im very familiar with how dairy farmers work. If you have seen the way they treat their cows you wouldn't be feeling too high-and-mighty. It's disgusting.
There are also many monks who do not touch money, do not touch the opposite sex and so forth. These distinctions help them on their way, and so it is good for them. Veganism was good for me, and lead me to see the distance I put between myself and my social context, and now being flexible to the moment that is in front of me is helpful.
In the context of my father, I asked myself this: What furthers the ideals of compassion and loving kindness more? Setting aside the meat product, thus avoiding any connection to the suffering of the animal? Or, taking the food, reverently accepting that the suffering occurred, and my father used that fruit to offer me his love through his food?
Its like listening to blues that are born of suffering. When you hear the truth of that suffering, through being directly and completely open to experiencing it, then you are closer to knowing the nature of the causes and conditions of humankind that created it in the first place. There is no better fuel for compassion.
I offer this not as some kind of defense, but you said you are interested in the workings of the mind, and this accounting is as direct as I can put into words.
With warmth,
Matt
I totally agree with Matt. At the point the animal is already dead, refusing to eat it is pure attachment. Frankly, lots of life dies whether you eat meat or strictly vegetarian. Refusing to eat at that point is more disrespectful IMO. I used to do the vegetarian thing, because frankly I love animals as much as people, but realized I was only fooling myself in regards to "saving lives."
If evil karma had physical form, the empty space of the ten directions could
not contain it.
afflictions and obstructions?
Sakyamuni Buddha and Amitabha Buddha, out of compassion for sentient
beings who lack the strength to rid themselves of evil karma, specifically taught the
method of “relying on the Buddha’s power to take their residual karma along to the
Pure Land.” Such compassionate action is all-encompassing; even our obligations to
the Heavens or to our parents cannot be compared to it – not even on a scale of ten thousand to one. Therefore, you should engage in earnest repentance, seeking the Buddhas’ assistance in eradicating past karma and achieving peace and tranquility of body and mind.
Om Mani Padme Hum
i know that its bad, but old habits die hard, im weening myself off dairy and stuff so ill be vegan soon ^.^
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because cruelty is in the world, it is ok to be part of it? i feel to see the logic. because an evil man would cleanse the world of a race is reason enough to work for him and help cleanse the world of that race? again, stop me if i am provoking a fight, but this makes no sense to me, just because something will be, does not mean you must be. change can happen only through your actions, 10 years of veganism given up for this reasoning? im sorry, but ill likely always fail to see that point.
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i am not high and mighty, and i do not mean to come off as such, this is more a thread for me to understand ways of thinking. i know that a person can eat meat, thanking the animal that gave its life for them to gain nuetrients, and that is fine. i am most against the cruel ways in which the animals are kept and treated, the way they are killed. animals should not grow on a farm, they should be free, and if we should eat meat, we should be the ones to personally take the life and only as needed. we should be the ones to go out to a forest and kill a deer so our family may eat, because this is a personal way, there is no love and will never be love in the industry of meat, that is death for deaths sake in my eyes. many cows crouded togeather to grow to die. many chickens crowded and enslaved to produce eggs, the potential lives of future animals that will never be. much of it is wasted, thrown in the trash, because a person is full and satisfied, they throw away leftover flesh, the leftover remains of an animal that will never meet a burriel or blessing or remeberence, simply slaughtered and prepared as food that will be forgotten so soon. it is talked by some hear so simply, and again, i feel so many people are distenced from their food. we call it steak and pork chops and veal, but if we called it dead cow, dead pig, and dead young cow, would you boast so proudly that you eat it? would you eat as much or at all of it as you do now?
please answer the questions, because i am genuinely curious.
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My dad worked in a large-scale slaughter house all his life so I am not distanced from it at all. Would you boast proudly of being a vegetarian (I know you say there's no "holier-than-thou-ness" going on but the "^.^" would suggest pride) if you called your food "pesticides that killed thousands of insects" or "tractor that turned a family of rabbits to pulp" or "fuel emmissions that from the transportation of foods that have to be imported from another country and are contributing to global warming" or "crop that could produce so much more if it weren't organic and could feed some of the starving people in the world"? Death is inevitable. I am not proud to be an anything-eater. I just eat to eat. I'm not going to live in guilt for any of what I consume. I am not going to pretend that anything I eat is free of blood. It's life and I love and respect all that's died so that I can live.
Sometimes I crave meet. Sometimes hummus and falafels. Both are equally issues from a Buddhist perspective and not for moral reasons.
As for eggs-Are you against birth control too, then? Male masturbation? Spaying/neutering pets? Not keeping female and male pets seperated? Do you encourage all people, enev young teens, to have sex and make babies every time a female ovulates?
because, the animal was killed because people want the meat, and one person might not change the minds of masses by themselves, but many will at least slow down the demand for meat and thus, lower the amount of deaths per year.
animals do not die directly from my diet, though some might see abuse and eventual death when their usefulness as dairy cows and such ends, though this is why i am weening myself off the stuff. im not perfect, but im doing my best to stop suffering as i can.
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because people really dont need meat. because people in countries like the U.S and other larger countries eat meat in grossly large preportions. acording to the food pyrimid, fruits and vegis make up a larger portion of the dietary requirments than meat, and yet, the land in most of these countries is used for animals because the demand for meat is much higher than the demand of vegis.
i know you might not be distant from your foods source, but many are, or act like it. i wasnt targeting any one in particular with that comments, so im sorry if you feel that way. the "^.^" is just me liking to smile
there are organic and small-scale crops that prevent things like that. i personally get almost all of the food i eat a few yards away, pestiside free, herbacide free, and very small scale harvesting to our needs. i know this cant be done for all, for diffrent reason and i respect that, but there are steps that can be taken. i suppose i hold society to too high a standered lest they be held back in production, but this is just how i feel.
for the egg thing, yes, i kinda am against most of those, especially the spaying/nuetering, it would be best for less waste of genetic matterial, considering all the possible lives, i guess i feel to much for them, and i know there needs to be a little controle on such things and all that . but what i most meant by the comment was the conditions of which the chickens are put through as a resault of large scale egg production.
and again, i know you may be thankful of the lives that go into your food, i was mostly addressing those who are a little more numb to the facts, those who can be light hearted of matters of literal life and death. i know what i eat causes death to some plants, and i thank them all every night for their gift, and do plan on going on a fruitatarian diet some time hopefully soon(as it stands, i cant for several reasons of finance and where i live and such)
anyways, you seem a bit offenced, and i just cant stress enough how much i really dont want this to be a fight, which its kinda feeling like. sorry if you feel i am acting high an mighty or trying to attack you/anyone, i dont meant to.
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I see this reasoning all the time and for me it does not fly. Dairy cows see abuse their entire lives. I have seen firstand cows hit with a metal pole because they wouldn't move fast enough, a dog left in with them that eventually bit one's entire ear off, constantly yelled at and hit because the farmers grow impatient with animals that tend to take things slowly. I have known farmers who take their dogs and housepets out to be shot when they piss them off. I have known a horse living on one if these dairy farms to be starved and not treated by a proper vet and abused to the point where he would no longer approach even my sister, a person he loved because she was the only one who treated him well. I have known a farmer who didn't want baby birds shitting on his new deck and took the nest and tossed the newborns over the ledge. I have been told this is normal in the industry.
I mentioned many ways animals are harmed through eating a vegan diet. Direct or indirect is irrelevant so long as you're aware it's happening. Is killing 100 people knowingly but indirectly better than killing one directly?
I am very curious to hear your responses to my other questions too. Particularly the one about eggs.
yes, a smile indicative of pride for your dietary choice.
So contributing to animal abuse by purchasing from and thereby supporting that industry yourself for financial reasons is justifiable but Matt eating what was already dead one time that he didn't request or purchase in order to show kindess to his father and not let the animal die in vein is not?
You are against males masturbating...? And are for teen pregnancy and keeping all women pregnant constantly until menopause...? Do we not have enough children without homes, enough people starving to death? We don't have room in the world for your vision. We are already overpopulated. Do you have any idea how often cats and mice and other pets can get pregnant and how many babies they give birth to each time? Since you can't afford a vegan diet I doubt (ok I know) you couldn't support all these human and animal additions to the world. Frankly this view is medieval and somewhat insane. o.o Do you weep for all the potential lives lost during sex even when a child is conceived? o.o
As for eggs, I see no problem eating them. Yes the habits of farmers generally need to be changed, so let's work on that instead of not eating eggs at all. Chickens will lay unfertilized eggs either way, I don't see why eating them is an issue then.
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i may be inclined to vegi/veganism, but that does not mean im high and mighty and all that, thanks. im sorry im a bit lost...what did i say i saw in meat eaters?
i wouldnt call it justifie able. its unavoidable. if my finances dont alow it, i cant do it, obviously. if i dont have money enough to live off of fruit, then it just isnt possible, because if i could, id do it in a heart beat, as it stands, fruit is very expensive, and my income is 0. i am relient on my parents, and as such i am lucky i am able to be vegetarian, and only that because of the garden me and a neighbor tend. im saying that you were vegan for 10 years, your parents were not aware of this or what? your father must have, in this time, come to accept this and im sure it in no way effected him. your dad can show he loves you in more ways than food.
like i said(egg thing) i am SOMEWHAT against it. id like it if waste could be avoided, but some things like overpopulatoion must be addressed and so i see the predicement. if i could decided that eggs wouldnt be produced so often and that sperm wouldnt be wasted in masterbation, id do it. im not a god, and sadly i cant do these things, i understand that they are unavoidable evils.
the not eating eggs is more a personal issue, and im sorry for pushing it to you an very one else, but yes, the more important thing would be to address the conditions of farming in general.
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Do we eat meat because animals die or do animals get killed because there is a demnd for meat?
Let's not go there. This is a Buddhist forum you know
I accept that you see the current meat market as Evil with a capital(istic) E.
You're being dramatic and have the mind of an activist, which reminds me of me from 15 years ago. I didn't wear any leather, would use no products that had been tested on animals, ate no mammals or birds (I admit I ate some fish from time to time, especially at family gatherings to be polite) and would call other people evil quite readily for the behaviors that were counter to my own.
You're not provoking a fight, but you are exposed as a hypocrite. You are surrounded by suffering, on all sides... from the wood in the home that was chopped and hacked out of a tree that was minding its own business; to the clothes you wear that were made for pennies in a china slave shop; the product you clean yourself with that was tested on animals; the toilet you poop on constructed out of clay and other aggregates that were mined, tearing apart the ecosystem of the land; the water you drink cleaned by bacteria harvested as slaves, bred only to serve...and countless other objects, born out of a collective earthen suffering. Yet, you're only open to the dead animals on a plate? And you call yourself awake to compassion?
You're sleeping, friend, and to actually awaken you need to realize that humankind is in a difficult spot at the moment, and by dealing with what you see more skillfully you can help further love and wisdom. Don't waste your time decrying things as evil, but sit and see. I didn't decide to abandon veganism to eat meat, when I outgrew the hypocrisy, meat felt like the right choice, and I ate it.
With warmth,
Matt
However, we can all agree that we need less painful ways of killing animals. We need more restrictions in this area. I have seen some gruesome happenings in certain parts of the world and they are difficult to be accepted because they are visibly very painful. Technology is advanced; there are so many easier ways of killing so governments certainly can have more restrictions and rules in place
Um... I try not like to be emphatic about such things, but this... there is no way in any sense you can say that a sprout or potato is sentient. That is absurd.
Sentience means having experiences. I am not sure that we can say that ants experience anything, cauliflowers most certainly can not (Don't be confused by the fact they look like brains, that's just the way they look.)
namaste
there's no need to argue that. That it involve killing sentient beings is still an undeniable fact.
Ants have no awareness, they aren't conscious? 0_o Thats a new one. I hear "you can't prove they feel pain" all the time but... In any event it goes beyond insects to wildlife as well. If anyone tries to tell themselves that things don't have to die in order for them to eat they are just kidding themselves.
I was talking about a specific scenario and addressed this already.
I personally don't care what you choose to eat. People express their compassion differently based on the info they have available to them. I respect Bella for making her choice. I'm not the one starting these Threads.
Evils? They're unavoidable, not evil. If hans only had sex to procreate, and it only took having sex once for every woman to get pregnant, sperm would still have to go um unused. If there were no humans, there would still be sperm and eggs going unused, naturally. You've taken this to bizarre extremes. You're fighting against the very basics of nature and calling it evil. o.o
if it's a personal thing then fine, but you did bring it up.
Pride... In some... You said you see people proudly declaring they eat meat and this seemed to bother you.
P
But we haven't got many of those here, have we?:p
P
No it isn't. A potato is simply not sentient.
Maybe look at it like this:
Somewhere between an an amoeba and a human sentence emerges, we can't say where, there is no definite point, but there is a definite transition from nonsentient to sentient.
I try not to kill ants, but not out of cruelty as much as just the negative karmic consequences of destructive actions. So for me its more like vandalism than murder. The same isn't true of mammals and things that are more sentient.
Thick, I wasn't talking about vegetables.
I am not confused enough to confuse vegetables with insects. My point is, how can you say insects (ants and many other) are lesser animals than cows, pigs that are killed for meat? How can you say killing one is better than the other? They are all animals. If you can, please come up with reasonable justification to say that killing a cow is more unethical than killing an ant.
Is it OK to eat Algae according to Dharma? Yes
Is it OK to eat humans according to Dharma? No
It isn't black and white (or green and pink), there is a transition of vague emergence.
In the same way as its better to kill a potato than a porpoise, its better to kill an ant than a anteater.
Do you agree? if not, why not?
namaste:)
The argument here is not that vegetables are sentient (whatever that means) but that there are a lot of insects being killed in the process of making your vegetable meals. So unless you grow your own vegetables without intentionally harming any insects around you (ants, worms etc) it can be argued that a lot of killing is involved in the agricultural industries as well.
According to Dhamma nothing is inherently right or wrong. Good and bad depends on ethical/moral grounds. So, is it more ethical to kill the insects than killing a pig?
It means experiencing, and it is a vague term.
Yes, obviously!:)
namaste
OK. So, on what grounds do you think insects are lesser beings than pigs that killing them is not so much of a big deal like killing a pig?