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im vegetarian since birth because of my moms believes, iv tasted meat couple of times and like the flavor, but i dont get use to it, to different and feels like rubber.
I eat both and I have no issues with either. The argument is that you cannot say eating meat is bad as it involves killing because it can be argued that eating veges also involves killing animals directly or indirectly. That's the point I was making when you came in and started babbling about a vegetable
Um... I try not like to be emphatic about such things, but this... there is no way in any sense you can say that a sprout or potato is sentient. That is absurd.
I think there may be 2 issues here, causing pain and taking life. My guess is that a creature's ability to feel pain is proportionate to the complexity of it's nervous system.
I find the taking life issue more difficult, it's difficult to say whether an ant's life is worth less than a cow's.
The argument is that you cannot say eating meat is bad as it involves killing because it can be argued that eating veges also involves killing animals directly or indirectly.
I have never understood the logic behind this argument because the number of beings killed increases more and more, the further you go up the food chain.
I have never understood the logic behind this argument because the number of beings killed increases more and more, the further you go up the food chain.
I agree, it soon reduces to absurdity. Even eating a humble bean will involve killing some nitrogen fixing bacteria at somepoint...
Note that the ban on killing applies to sentient beings. To me that implies a multi-cellular organism with at least a rudimentary nervous system. I vaguely remember Jason quoting something that indicated that the ban applied to animals that do some sort of respiration.
Note that the ban on killing applies to sentient beings. To me that implies a multi-cellular organism with at least a rudimentary nervous system. I vaguely remember Jason quoting something that indicated that the ban applied to animals that do some sort of respiration.
yes this explain why monks avoid killing even mosquitoes.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
im vegetarian since birth because of my moms believes, iv tasted meat couple of times and like the flavor, but i dont get use to it, to different and feels like rubber.
hello newtech,
just curious, did you ever wish your mother had raised you as an omnivore? i'm sure if you had been eating it since birth it wouldn't feel like rubber, lol.
I'm a vegetarian who eats fish (technically a piscatarian). A high cholesterol diagnosis prompted me to change to vegetarianism. Going pure vegan would be easy but would give my poor parents fits when I come over for dinner, so fish stays on the diet.
Mind you, I am conscious of the plight of the vegetables.
Listen up brothers and sisters,
Come hear my desperate tale.
I speak of our friends of nature
Trapped in the dirt like a jail.
Vegetables live in oppression,
Served on our tables each night.
This killing of veggies is madness,
I say we take up the fight.
Salads are only for murderers,
Coleslaw's a fascist regime.
Don't think that they don't have feelings
Just 'cause a radish can't scream.
"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"
"No, lord."
"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"
"Yes, lord."
"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world.
I have never understood the logic behind this argument because the number of beings killed increases more and more, the further you go up the food chain.
Point is, that includes the number of beings killed in agriculture too like insects and even other types of animals like rats. I agree that there should be regulations and limitations enfoced by the relevant authorities as I already said.
I agree, it soon reduces to absurdity. Even eating a humble bean will involve killing some nitrogen fixing bacteria at somepoint...
It is absurd to come to judgements as how sentient an animal should be in order to be too sentient to be killed so that killing this is better than killing that etc...
Eat moderately and as simply as possible, whatever you eat. Obsessing over what you eat is actually not a good thing
Yes, I was must musing.
For me killing a cow seems much worse than killing an ant, but maybe that doesn't make much sense. Perhaps it feels worse to kill creatures that are more closely related to us, like other mammals. Maybe a lot less people would eat meat if they had to do the killing themselves?
hello newtech,
just curious, did you ever wish your mother had raised you as an omnivore? i'm sure if you had been eating it since birth it wouldn't feel like rubber, lol.
haha sometimes but a very shallow wish. What amaze me more is that omnivor people dont notice the rubberness.
I find it odd so few here are vegetarian. If I can be honest, it puts me in mind of "California Hippie Buddhism", to quote the Recommended Reading thread. But only puts me in mind of; not to say that one can't be an omnivore and be Buddhist. I know this is just a biased reaction of mine.
I was raised on a normal American diet, but still find meat grosses me out sometimes. Like newtech said... it feels weird.
I find it odd so few here are vegetarian. If I can be honest, it puts me in mind of "California Hippie Buddhism", to quote the Recommended Reading thread. But only puts me in mind of; not to say that one can't be an omnivore and be Buddhist. I know this is just a biased reaction of mine.
I was raised on a normal American diet, but still find meat grosses me out sometimes. Like newtech said... it feels weird.
--Vil
Vegetarianism is NOT mandatory in Buddhism mind you. I think perhaps you find it odd because the Buddhists here have not measure up to your preconception of what Buddhists should be?
Vegetarianism is NOT mandatory in Buddhism mind you. I think perhaps you find it odd because the Buddhists here have not measure up to your preconception of what Buddhists should be?
I don't know whether I detect an implication that I'm uneducated about Buddhism, so I'll leave it. I'm aware it is not mandatory, as I noted in my original post, but it is pretty widespread; it seems like a small sacrifice to make, and I've had entirely too much of people who profess to believe in something but don't want to change their lives at all for it. Again, not to suggest anyone here is like that... I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, except that omnivores so outnumber the vegetarians. My experiences with various Hindu traditions have probably left me a little biased, though. (None of my Indian Buddhist friends eat meat either; they got me started, so I guess I assimilated their views.)
I don't know whether I detect an implication that I'm uneducated about Buddhism, so I'll leave it. I'm aware it is not mandatory, as I noted in my original post, but it is pretty widespread; it seems like a small sacrifice to make, and I've had entirely too much of people who profess to believe in something but don't want to change their lives at all for it. Again, not to suggest anyone here is like that... I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, except that omnivores so outnumber the vegetarians. My experiences with various Hindu traditions have probably left me a little biased, though. (None of my Indian Buddhist friends eat meat either; they got me started, so I guess I assimilated their views.)
--Vil
Please be assured Vil there was no malice or condescension implied in my post. My apologies if it was unclear.
I can understand how "biaises" can colour our experiences or thoughts I'm a little surprised at the numbers on the poll too, but then again I'm sure there are a vast number of members who have not voted either
Point is, that includes the number of beings killed in agriculture too like insects and even other types of animals like rats. I agree that there should be regulations and limitations enfoced by the relevant authorities as I already said.
It does I agree. My point was that number of total beings killed (including insects, rodents, etc.) still increases as one goes further up the food chain.
It does I agree. My point was that number of total beings killed (including insects, rodents, etc.) still increases as one goes further up the food chain.
Yes, that's true. If we eat meat we're responsible for even more deaths.
Please be assured Vil there was no malice or condescension implied in my post. My apologies if it was unclear.
I can understand how "biaises" can colour our experiences or thoughts I'm a little surprised at the numbers on the poll too, but then again I'm sure there are a vast number of members who have not voted either
Namaste,
Raven
My apologies for the accusation then!
I have often thought to myself that if one were to eat meat bought at the store, one is not really causing the deaths of any animals directly. Nor could it be realistically argued that the one purchase makes any difference to the number of animals a company slaughters. It's just the principle of the thing, though, to me.
I voted omnivore. I'm repeating here what I posted in another Buddhist forum which has a similar thread going.
According to the (Theravada) Buddhist scriptures, it is not a prerequisite for a person to be a vegetarian to be a Buddhist. Even the Buddha abandoned the meatless diet he followed while an ascetic, soon after enlightenment. So, the Buddha was not a vegetarian, and neither did he ever ask any of his disciples, monks or laity, to be vegetarians. Considering that the Buddha's emphasis was on the avoidance of killing (first precept), one can ask: Is it worst to swat a mosquito – an immediate act of killing – than to eat the carcass of an already dead animal? How many of householders can totally abstain from killing vermin and pests?
So... a lay vegetarian must be very wary of feelings of judgemental moral superiority if s/he cannot at the same time also strictly keep the first precept. This is what informs my dietary practice, with due regard being had to my personal and family responsibilities. The circumstances of other lay persons, I'm sure, will be quite different from mine. It probably boils down to personal circumstances and choices.
I always show great respect for the noble actions of vegetarians, and vegans in particular. Vegetarianism may not be something the Buddha taught to his disciples, but it is nonetheless compatible with the Dhamma in terms of loving-kindness and compassion. So, to those who are vegetarians, I say well done!
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
haha sometimes but a very shallow wish. What amaze me more is that omnivor people dont notice the rubberness.
i only asked because this is a conversation my partner and i have had in the past. we are now both vegetarians but are unsure how to raise our someday children. i feel it is one thing to make the choice for yourself, but quite another thing to force it upon someone else. i'm still quite on the fence with the matter, heh. too many points on either side... my biggest concern being a health matter.
I have often thought to myself that if one were to eat meat bought at the store, one is not really causing the deaths of any animals directly. Nor could it be realistically argued that the one purchase makes any difference to the number of animals a company slaughters. It's just the principle of the thing, though, to me.
lol. i think it could be as realistic to argue that one purchase makes a difference as it is to argue that one vote makes a difference. true, it's very small and insignificant when you look at it that way... but it's also true that if EVERYONE felt that way, no one would ever vote and nothing would be done.
in a previous post on this long thread, i brought up a similar point:
"i do, however, believe that every little thing we do can affect the environment. i saw a documentary once that discussed the concept of every purchase being a "vote". for many stores and restaurants, money talks. your choice is your vote. for each item purchased, the store has to replace it. you don't have to contribute to the meat industry and all of the environmental pollution that goes along with it if you don't want to. now, this doesn't really apply to the "family meal" situation where someone has already purchased meat in your place, but you could also argue that perhaps you not partaking would mean more meat for a meat-eater and less purchases on their behalf. most meat-eaters i know tend to view a meal as incomplete without some sort of meat."
i have a question for everyone responding to this thread:
would you continue to purchase from a company that you suddenly found out abused their employees horribly (slave labor standards)? or would you say to yourself, "you know, there are other stores i can support instead."?
whether or not eating meat is inherently wrong is not as important to me as the idea of supporting so much suffering(and the companies responsible!). kudos to whoever brought up the "going to the local butcher" suggestion. for me personally, i find it is easier to just cut meat out of my diet altogether than trying to track down the origin of every meat i consume.
i only asked because this is a conversation my partner and i have had in the past. we are now both vegetarians but are unsure how to raise our someday children. i feel it is one thing to make the choice for yourself, but quite another thing to force it upon someone else. i'm still quite on the fence with the matter, heh. too many points on either side... my biggest concern being a health matter.
My partner and I have raised 4 children as vegitarians (and for a short time vegans), 3 of them have now made informed choices and eat small amounts of certain meats (their choices not ours). We decided early on that it was better to do it this way around as then if they chose to remain vegitarian they would have never eaten meat rather than having to become reformed meat eaters later in life IYSWIM.
i think it could be as realistic to argue that one purchase makes a difference as it is to argue that one vote makes a difference. true, it's very small and insignificant when you look at it that way... but it's also true that if EVERYONE felt that way, no one would ever vote and nothing would be done.
Indeed. Excellent post. (But for that matter, I don't vote!)
On a personal level, I am uncomfortable with killing animals for food. At the same time, my body seems to demand meat-- meatless meals just can't seem to nourish me over any extended period of time. It feels like something's missing which no amount of beans can take care of.
So I draw the line by doing two things. First, I stick to poultry and seafood, avoiding all red meat. Second, I try not to eat a lot of meat; for instance, I never eat meat more than once a day and when I'm not very hungry, I forego it. When it is offered by someone else, however, I take it not to cause people to feel bad or be inconvenienced on my account.
Philosophically, I justify this lifestyle by observing that naturally, Homo Sapiens have always been omnivorous. The only way in which a vegetarian diet is even possible is in the presence of agriculture. If you don't have fields where edible plants are grown, it's completely impossible to survive without hunting and fishing. And agriculture is a very new development in the history of our species. The fact that some critical nutrients (such as B12) do not even exist except in animal foods confirms my position: vegetarianism, at least its strict variety, is unnatural to Homo Sapiens.
The fact that some critical nutrients (such as B12) do not even exist except in animal foods confirms my position.
In the modern society most would agree that is true. But historically, not entirely. B12 is not produced by any plant or animal. It's actually produced by bacteria that is present in the natural environment. Including in one's intestines, mouth, water supplies, soil, etc. It's also present in fecal matter of most animals. Back before the advent of toilets, waste treatment centers, anti bacterial soap, teeth brushing, etc, etc. Many speculate that it would have been quite possible to get B12 from the above various sources.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Philosophically, I justify this lifestyle by observing that naturally, Homo Sapiens have always been omnivorous. The only way in which a vegetarian diet is even possible is in the presence of agriculture. If you don't have fields where edible plants are grown, it's completely impossible to survive without hunting and fishing. And agriculture is a very new development in the history of our species. The fact that some critical nutrients (such as B12) do not even exist except in animal foods confirms my position: vegetarianism, at least its strict variety, is unnatural to Homo Sapiens.
this seems to assume that what is true for some, must be true for all. if there were people who exist solely on meat sources as they have no means for agriculture, then surely there were people who existed solely on vegetarian sources. i read an article once on an island whose main food source was sweet potatoes, but now i can't seem to find any information so... *shrugs*
and i second what seeker said about the bacteria.
b12 actually stays in your liver, kidneys and muscle tissue for a long time. a deficiency typically takes many years to develop as a result of diet and is actually quite uncommon. the most common causes are due to parasites, absorption problems, or destruction within the body (this can be caused by anything from alcohol to smoking to high protein diets to diarrhea).
it should also be noted that eggs and dairy products are good sources of b12. typically, vegetarians eat eggs/dairy. if they don't, they are called vegans.
I tried to become vegetarian for 2 years but I was not a very good cook. Currently I eat meat but I am learning to become a better vegetarian cook (slowly). I HATE the health nut movement that is married to vegetarianism. I want a chef's style cooking for my food. The health nut recipes taste horrible.
Thickpaper (just teasing) Buddha and George Bush may agree with you but Chuck Norris agrees with me and he can kick their butts.
...........................
whether or not eating meat is inherently wrong is not as important to me as the idea of supporting so much suffering (and the companies responsible!).......
That's a fairly solid view, I think...
The companies producing eggs and milk must surely be on top of this list. Hens and cows are harvested for the products (eggs & milk-dairy) often under appalling conditions and then they too meet the same fate as the chicken and cattle raised for meat. Does this mean that supporting the egg and milk industries is supporting greater suffering than just supporting the meat industry? What do you think?
I voted Vegetarism with dairy, but actually I also eat seafood and some fowl.
Mostly as a sort of middle path since my wife is not Veggie at all. If I were single I would not eat meat but would still eat dairy.
I'm far from militant about it though, and really have no issues with other people eating choices
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
The companies producing eggs and milk must surely be on top of this list. Hens and cows are harvested for the products (eggs & milk-dairy) often under appalling conditions and then they too meet the same fate as the chicken and cattle raised for meat. Does this mean that supporting the egg and milk industries is supporting greater suffering than just supporting the meat industry? What do you think?
honest answer? i think about this a lot. i'm not exactly sure what to think about it. i mean, if you think being a vegetarian is hard? hah. try being a VEGAN! you basically can't even eat at restaraunts anymore unless you eat a salad. almost nothing is vegan-friendly. i also have a few health concerns that i think veganism would exacerbate.
at the present, i just try and buy organic as much as possible. i also don't drink milk and use soy milk instead.
I'm an omnivore with certain restrictions, like I don't eat red meat. I've tried to become a vegetarian several time but never had the willpower to go through with it
honest answer? i think about this a lot. i'm not exactly sure what to think about it. i mean, if you think being a vegetarian is hard? hah. try being a VEGAN! you basically can't even eat at restaraunts anymore unless you eat a salad. almost nothing is vegan-friendly. i also have a few health concerns that i think veganism would exacerbate.
at the present, i just try and buy organic as much as possible. i also don't drink milk and use soy milk instead.
Know what you mean... I tried, for about ten months, to resort to a vegan lifestyle. Most of the vegetarian protein like beans left me bloated (gas). No one likes a vegan diet at home - means I will have to prepare separate meals for myself. In my province, people are really into meat and dairy dishes and the varieties of vegetables is limited; and like you said it is virtually impossible to get a decent meal at restaurants. My fixation on what I should eat and the daily planning to put together a vegan dish turned out to be somewhat of a hindrance to my practice. So I opted for a omnivore diet, but being mindful to consume only small portions of meat on certain days of the week. That's the best I can do ...
I became a vegetarian five months ago--inspired by a post somebody here made, actually--and since then I've lost 32 pounds. (Since I was a shocking 50(!) pounds overweight at the time, I still have 18 more to go--but I believe I will make it.)
My diet currently consists of non-fat cottage cheese, non-fat yogurt, granola bars, oatmeal, salad, and veggie wraps. I drink water, Smart Water, and Vitamin Water.
Not a very exciting diet, I know--but man, it feels great to be so much lighter!
Alot of times i see a "hamburger" and its like a Disneyland ride to me. But its definetly not Disney for the Cow. Sometimes i eat "bacon" on my "burger" and then Its more like a rollercoaster. Im sure the pig is having as much fun as me. Yet this in itself is not sufficient to keep from eating "burgers". I need placement meditation to really understand the depth of "killing from desire" . When i do then i can equalize with self and other and see that im actually eating me! Then i can see deeper and with the higher teachings view this act from the standpoint of the "winds" ( which im not able to do yet) but whats most important is to stay convinced of the reality of eating meat. Then when the desire comes up i will have viligence and like Sogyal Rinpoche says " know who the hell i am".
Comments
P
I definitely agree
So they don't feel and they have no awareness?
I eat both and I have no issues with either. The argument is that you cannot say eating meat is bad as it involves killing because it can be argued that eating veges also involves killing animals directly or indirectly. That's the point I was making when you came in and started babbling about a vegetable
I think there may be 2 issues here, causing pain and taking life. My guess is that a creature's ability to feel pain is proportionate to the complexity of it's nervous system.
I find the taking life issue more difficult, it's difficult to say whether an ant's life is worth less than a cow's.
P
They may have some primitive proto-awarness etc... in the way that fruitflies may have a primitive romance.
Of course it's difficult to say. I'm not the one making such claims here you know
I have never understood the logic behind this argument because the number of beings killed increases more and more, the further you go up the food chain.
I agree, it soon reduces to absurdity. Even eating a humble bean will involve killing some nitrogen fixing bacteria at somepoint...
hello newtech,
just curious, did you ever wish your mother had raised you as an omnivore? i'm sure if you had been eating it since birth it wouldn't feel like rubber, lol.
Mind you, I am conscious of the plight of the vegetables.
Listen up brothers and sisters,
Come hear my desperate tale.
I speak of our friends of nature
Trapped in the dirt like a jail.
Vegetables live in oppression,
Served on our tables each night.
This killing of veggies is madness,
I say we take up the fight.
Salads are only for murderers,
Coleslaw's a fascist regime.
Don't think that they don't have feelings
Just 'cause a radish can't scream.
-- Carrot Juice Is Murder, by the Arrogant Worms
"No, lord."
"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"
"Yes, lord."
"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.063.than.html
Point is, that includes the number of beings killed in agriculture too like insects and even other types of animals like rats. I agree that there should be regulations and limitations enfoced by the relevant authorities as I already said.
It is absurd to come to judgements as how sentient an animal should be in order to be too sentient to be killed so that killing this is better than killing that etc...
Eat moderately and as simply as possible, whatever you eat. Obsessing over what you eat is actually not a good thing
Can you explain a bit more why you would think that please?
How rudimentary?
That would be all animals... and plants.
namaste
I think that's a good way to approach it.
P
Yes, I was must musing.
For me killing a cow seems much worse than killing an ant, but maybe that doesn't make much sense. Perhaps it feels worse to kill creatures that are more closely related to us, like other mammals. Maybe a lot less people would eat meat if they had to do the killing themselves?
P
haha sometimes but a very shallow wish. What amaze me more is that omnivor people dont notice the rubberness.
I was raised on a normal American diet, but still find meat grosses me out sometimes. Like newtech said... it feels weird.
--Vil
Vegetarianism is NOT mandatory in Buddhism mind you. I think perhaps you find it odd because the Buddhists here have not measure up to your preconception of what Buddhists should be?
Just a thought
Respectfully,
Raven
--Vil
Please be assured Vil there was no malice or condescension implied in my post. My apologies if it was unclear.
I can understand how "biaises" can colour our experiences or thoughts
Namaste,
Raven
I sometimes think that about myself.;)
P
What is the sacrifice?
It does I agree. My point was that number of total beings killed (including insects, rodents, etc.) still increases as one goes further up the food chain.
thou shall not kill
peace
As Buddhists we commit to the first precept, which amounts to the same.
P
Yes, that's true. If we eat meat we're responsible for even more deaths.
P
I have often thought to myself that if one were to eat meat bought at the store, one is not really causing the deaths of any animals directly. Nor could it be realistically argued that the one purchase makes any difference to the number of animals a company slaughters. It's just the principle of the thing, though, to me.
Guess!
--Vil
If you order meat regularly from a small local butcher it can make quite a lot of difference.
P
According to the (Theravada) Buddhist scriptures, it is not a prerequisite for a person to be a vegetarian to be a Buddhist. Even the Buddha abandoned the meatless diet he followed while an ascetic, soon after enlightenment. So, the Buddha was not a vegetarian, and neither did he ever ask any of his disciples, monks or laity, to be vegetarians. Considering that the Buddha's emphasis was on the avoidance of killing (first precept), one can ask: Is it worst to swat a mosquito – an immediate act of killing – than to eat the carcass of an already dead animal? How many of householders can totally abstain from killing vermin and pests?
So... a lay vegetarian must be very wary of feelings of judgemental moral superiority if s/he cannot at the same time also strictly keep the first precept. This is what informs my dietary practice, with due regard being had to my personal and family responsibilities. The circumstances of other lay persons, I'm sure, will be quite different from mine. It probably boils down to personal circumstances and choices.
I always show great respect for the noble actions of vegetarians, and vegans in particular. Vegetarianism may not be something the Buddha taught to his disciples, but it is nonetheless compatible with the Dhamma in terms of loving-kindness and compassion. So, to those who are vegetarians, I say well done!
i only asked because this is a conversation my partner and i have had in the past. we are now both vegetarians but are unsure how to raise our someday children. i feel it is one thing to make the choice for yourself, but quite another thing to force it upon someone else. i'm still quite on the fence with the matter, heh. too many points on either side... my biggest concern being a health matter.
lol. i think it could be as realistic to argue that one purchase makes a difference as it is to argue that one vote makes a difference. true, it's very small and insignificant when you look at it that way... but it's also true that if EVERYONE felt that way, no one would ever vote and nothing would be done.
in a previous post on this long thread, i brought up a similar point:
"i do, however, believe that every little thing we do can affect the environment. i saw a documentary once that discussed the concept of every purchase being a "vote". for many stores and restaurants, money talks. your choice is your vote. for each item purchased, the store has to replace it. you don't have to contribute to the meat industry and all of the environmental pollution that goes along with it if you don't want to. now, this doesn't really apply to the "family meal" situation where someone has already purchased meat in your place, but you could also argue that perhaps you not partaking would mean more meat for a meat-eater and less purchases on their behalf. most meat-eaters i know tend to view a meal as incomplete without some sort of meat."
i have a question for everyone responding to this thread:
would you continue to purchase from a company that you suddenly found out abused their employees horribly (slave labor standards)? or would you say to yourself, "you know, there are other stores i can support instead."?
whether or not eating meat is inherently wrong is not as important to me as the idea of supporting so much suffering(and the companies responsible!). kudos to whoever brought up the "going to the local butcher" suggestion. for me personally, i find it is easier to just cut meat out of my diet altogether than trying to track down the origin of every meat i consume.
My partner and I have raised 4 children as vegitarians (and for a short time vegans), 3 of them have now made informed choices and eat small amounts of certain meats (their choices not ours). We decided early on that it was better to do it this way around as then if they chose to remain vegitarian they would have never eaten meat rather than having to become reformed meat eaters later in life IYSWIM.
So I draw the line by doing two things. First, I stick to poultry and seafood, avoiding all red meat. Second, I try not to eat a lot of meat; for instance, I never eat meat more than once a day and when I'm not very hungry, I forego it. When it is offered by someone else, however, I take it not to cause people to feel bad or be inconvenienced on my account.
Philosophically, I justify this lifestyle by observing that naturally, Homo Sapiens have always been omnivorous. The only way in which a vegetarian diet is even possible is in the presence of agriculture. If you don't have fields where edible plants are grown, it's completely impossible to survive without hunting and fishing. And agriculture is a very new development in the history of our species. The fact that some critical nutrients (such as B12) do not even exist except in animal foods confirms my position: vegetarianism, at least its strict variety, is unnatural to Homo Sapiens.
In the modern society most would agree that is true. But historically, not entirely. B12 is not produced by any plant or animal. It's actually produced by bacteria that is present in the natural environment. Including in one's intestines, mouth, water supplies, soil, etc. It's also present in fecal matter of most animals. Back before the advent of toilets, waste treatment centers, anti bacterial soap, teeth brushing, etc, etc. Many speculate that it would have been quite possible to get B12 from the above various sources.
this seems to assume that what is true for some, must be true for all. if there were people who exist solely on meat sources as they have no means for agriculture, then surely there were people who existed solely on vegetarian sources. i read an article once on an island whose main food source was sweet potatoes, but now i can't seem to find any information so... *shrugs*
and i second what seeker said about the bacteria.
b12 actually stays in your liver, kidneys and muscle tissue for a long time. a deficiency typically takes many years to develop as a result of diet and is actually quite uncommon. the most common causes are due to parasites, absorption problems, or destruction within the body (this can be caused by anything from alcohol to smoking to high protein diets to diarrhea).
it should also be noted that eggs and dairy products are good sources of b12. typically, vegetarians eat eggs/dairy. if they don't, they are called vegans.
Thickpaper (just teasing) Buddha and George Bush may agree with you but Chuck Norris agrees with me and he can kick their butts.
That's a fairly solid view, I think...
The companies producing eggs and milk must surely be on top of this list. Hens and cows are harvested for the products (eggs & milk-dairy) often under appalling conditions and then they too meet the same fate as the chicken and cattle raised for meat. Does this mean that supporting the egg and milk industries is supporting greater suffering than just supporting the meat industry? What do you think?
Mostly as a sort of middle path since my wife is not Veggie at all. If I were single I would not eat meat but would still eat dairy.
I'm far from militant about it though, and really have no issues with other people eating choices
honest answer? i think about this a lot. i'm not exactly sure what to think about it. i mean, if you think being a vegetarian is hard? hah. try being a VEGAN! you basically can't even eat at restaraunts anymore unless you eat a salad. almost nothing is vegan-friendly. i also have a few health concerns that i think veganism would exacerbate.
at the present, i just try and buy organic as much as possible. i also don't drink milk and use soy milk instead.
Know what you mean... I tried, for about ten months, to resort to a vegan lifestyle. Most of the vegetarian protein like beans left me bloated (gas). No one likes a vegan diet at home - means I will have to prepare separate meals for myself. In my province, people are really into meat and dairy dishes and the varieties of vegetables is limited; and like you said it is virtually impossible to get a decent meal at restaurants. My fixation on what I should eat and the daily planning to put together a vegan dish turned out to be somewhat of a hindrance to my practice. So I opted for a omnivore diet, but being mindful to consume only small portions of meat on certain days of the week. That's the best I can do ...
My diet currently consists of non-fat cottage cheese, non-fat yogurt, granola bars, oatmeal, salad, and veggie wraps. I drink water, Smart Water, and Vitamin Water.
Not a very exciting diet, I know--but man, it feels great to be so much lighter!
If you want to do it (which you must do to try), then you have the willpower.
The diet fits around the wants.. There are so many ways to lead a healthy vegetarian diet.