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Buddhism is about here and now cessation of suffering. Beliefs (in rebirth or otherwise) have very little place in it. Buddha talked about some verifiable Dhamma. It is undeniably stated over and over again in the suttas.
Opinion, speculation, and gross over-simplification.
To state over and over again that your opinion is definitively what "Buddhism is about" is absurd.
I think it is hard for some people to accept rebirth and I can see why as I use to be a major skeptic too.
An error in assumption. I myself used to fully believe in it. When I examined things more closely I realized that it was blind faith and that I clung to it for comfort. I am agnostic and have not been shown any convincing evidence to believe in it nor any reason why I would have to in order to be a Buddhist. Now I just see it potentially as skillful means. In regards to the literal interpretation it's just not relevant to me.
Sorry to anyone if I came across arrogant or something, but I was merely pointing out that to actually be buddhist you have to accept rebirth.
Again, why? Do you accept all the teachings of all the schools and take them all as literal truth? Do we have to bring up the hairy armpit again?
If you do not then no one is going to say you are a fool or you are wrong, because you are not, but you are neither a buddhist.
By saying we are not Buddhists you are implicitly stating that we are wrong [about the Buddha's teachings and dukkha]. But again, that is fine. I will be a follower of the Buddha and you can be a Buddhist.
Opinion, speculation, and gross over-simplification.
To state over and over again that your opinion is definitively what "Buddhism is about" is absurd.
It is what Buddhism is about according to my opinion
But yeah I understand what you mean. That statement probably came out wrong
It is what Buddhism is about according to my opinion
But yeah I understand what you mean. That statement probably came out wrong
perfect.
I think its important that we all try to temper our statements with a clear representation of our points of view and an understanding of others.
However, when reading the suttas closely it is apparent that such belief is irrelevant and unskillful
I think this is a good statement. Especially when you say "such belief is ... unskillful".
Belief, to me, is pretty unskillful in general because if you ask me it is the source of intellectual rigidity.
When we "believe" in something, we cling to it.
This of course is the potential trap of all "views".
I was thinking about this thread and how unskillful a lot of my speech was etc, how also it was getting other people slightly riled up.
The only reason I kept continuing with this is because to my understanding, rebirth is a fundamental part of buddhism and I cannot remove the words of the dalai lama and the buddha from my mind.
On the other hand, many people say they are christian or muslim yet do not attend church or do a lot of what a christian or muslim should do. I am sure you are all decent practitioners of the dharma and I never disputed this, neither did I say you are wrong in your beliefs.
Apart from all of this, it is utterly silly to carry on such a topic because it does not make a difference and shouldn't make a difference to anyone's life on this forum.
perfect.
I think its important that we all try to temper our statements with a clear representation of our points of view and an understanding of others.
Pardon my statements. My first language is not English and I sometimes type in a major rush as I usually drop by while at work so things can come out as offensive to some people
On the other hand, many people say they are christian or muslim yet do not attend church or do a lot of what a christian or muslim should do.
I'm sure you're not meaning to come off as so condescending and offensive to not only Buddhists who don't believe in rebirth but also to many Christians and Muslims but--forgive me, Lord--Jesus Christ.
In answer to the first question, and only for those who believe in literal rebirth; there are many different realms in which one can "continue" (for want of a better word). And I'm sure there must be other habitable planets in the huge wide universe.
Nios.
Oh, so those who don't believe in literal rebirth are not reborn?
Oh, so those who don't believe in literal rebirth are not reborn?
Cheers.
No I don't think that is what Nios is saying at all:) I think he is saying simply that it depends on ones individual view what one believes, which is very much a general principle of all Buddhist schools and doctrines, I believe.
No I don't think that is what Nios is saying at all:) I think he is saying simply that it depends on ones individual view what one believes, which is very much a general principle of all Buddhist schools and doctrines, I believe.
The only reason I kept continuing with this is because to my understanding, rebirth is a fundamental part of buddhism and I cannot remove the words of the dalai lama and the buddha from my mind.
Hi Tom, this is going to make me look naïve, but would you mind explaining to me briefly why the belief is fundamental?
Why would consciousness survive death?
Out of all the different religions Ive always thought that if I were to ever follow/practice one that it would be Buddhism but the more I delve into it the more it seems to me that Buddhism like all religions requires a certain amount of blind faith.
This is not even slightly true. It is precisely this point about Buddhism that makes it so different. All I have ever done in Buddhism is listen, read, and practice, without believing anything (or disbelieving anything). This is all that is required.
Im not worried. Just curious. Is that a crime? I want to know where all the so called consciousness stream , energy, minds etc would go? Its akin to thinking about space and the planets etc. Its interesting and I enjoy thinking about it. I thought Buddhism was about asking questions and finding out for one self so thats what Im doing. Are Buddhists not supposed to think of anything unless it leads to peace and freedom from suffering? Sometimes I enjoy thinking about other stuff.
How badly do you want to be free of suffering? If your life is going well, perhaps you will prefer to just live it, in which case, you can take just a light interest in Buddhism. You will benefit in proportion to what you put into it. Things change, however, and old age, sickness, and death are waiting in the wings. Will you feel the same when these things come to dominate your life? Or would you rather still be free to enjoy whatever time you have, instead of agonising over the parlous state of your existence.
I must admit, before I started following buddhism I was a firm atheist and a man of science and logic. A lot of buddhism actually correlates to those 2 aspects, but I had trouble believing in reincarnation. I have thought long and hard about it and have come to find some faith in it.
There is no need to have faith in reincarnation (or karma). You can achieve freedom from suffering without such faith. Because you can refrain from deciding whether karma and rebirth are true, you can be a Buddhist and a man of science and logic. There is no incompatibility between the two.
Having said that, Buddhists are not atheists: they refrain from speculating on questions to which no useful answer can be found, because such activities do not lead to freedom from suffering.
to actually be buddhist you have to accept rebirth. If you do not then no one is going to say you are a fool or you are wrong, because you are not, but you are neither a buddhist.
This is incorrect. All a Buddhist needs to do is listen, read, and practice. Belief is not required.
Also, just because a discussion gets a little heated is no reason to abandon it. Where people disagree strongly, there is uncertainty, and therefore potentially important learning to be had.
dry, pedantic, polemical suttas links aren't going to sway my opinions.
When it comes to suttas, dryness and pedantry are in the mind of the beholder. I find them anything but, since they offer by far the greatest treasure to be found in life.
The only reason I kept continuing with this is because to my understanding, rebirth is a fundamental part of buddhism and I cannot remove the words of the dalai lama and the buddha from my mind.
then we have to re-read, re-think, analyse, contemplate on five aggregates, five clinging aggregates, dependent origination and practise Noble Eightfold Path
each moment there is arising of five aggregates and falling of five aggregates and that means each moment we experience suffering
when/if we are on Noble Eightfold Path , that means we are mindful therefore we are not creating cause for re-becoming (rebirth)
if/when we are not mindful we fall back to dependent origination and we are creating cause for re-becoming (re-birth)
Once we get the Right Understanding (know what exactly is the wrong view) only we can say we are on Noble Eightfold Path
Comments
Why is it mandatory to just accept it to be a Buddhist? What is the relevance?
(in case if someone gets offended again let me clarify that I am just asking you and not denying your opinion...)
Opinion, speculation, and gross over-simplification.
To state over and over again that your opinion is definitively what "Buddhism is about" is absurd.
Again, why? Do you accept all the teachings of all the schools and take them all as literal truth? Do we have to bring up the hairy armpit again?
By saying we are not Buddhists you are implicitly stating that we are wrong [about the Buddha's teachings and dukkha]. But again, that is fine. I will be a follower of the Buddha and you can be a Buddhist.
It is what Buddhism is about according to my opinion
But yeah I understand what you mean. That statement probably came out wrong
Me too. I used to believe it and thought it was absurd to even doubt it. I even once debated about it in this very forum with Valtiel
However, when reading the suttas closely it is apparent that such belief is irrelevant and unskillful (for full relinquishment)
I think its important that we all try to temper our statements with a clear representation of our points of view and an understanding of others.
I think this is a good statement. Especially when you say "such belief is ... unskillful".
Belief, to me, is pretty unskillful in general because if you ask me it is the source of intellectual rigidity.
When we "believe" in something, we cling to it.
This of course is the potential trap of all "views".
The only reason I kept continuing with this is because to my understanding, rebirth is a fundamental part of buddhism and I cannot remove the words of the dalai lama and the buddha from my mind.
On the other hand, many people say they are christian or muslim yet do not attend church or do a lot of what a christian or muslim should do. I am sure you are all decent practitioners of the dharma and I never disputed this, neither did I say you are wrong in your beliefs.
Apart from all of this, it is utterly silly to carry on such a topic because it does not make a difference and shouldn't make a difference to anyone's life on this forum.
I'm sure you're not meaning to come off as so condescending and offensive to not only Buddhists who don't believe in rebirth but also to many Christians and Muslims but--forgive me, Lord--Jesus Christ.
Such a long thread over an OP that just begs a funny line.... Can't think of one though.
Oh, so those who don't believe in literal rebirth are not reborn?
Cheers.
No I don't think that is what Nios is saying at all:) I think he is saying simply that it depends on ones individual view what one believes, which is very much a general principle of all Buddhist schools and doctrines, I believe.
namaste
I was trying to be silly.
Silly? About Dharma? Do you have any idea the damage this could cause to the Four Noble Truths!!!
Why would consciousness survive death?
Actually they are born. Probably many times a moment.
So it would be more appropriate to say, from their point of view, that those who believe in rebirth are not reborn.
And yes I am trying to be funny.
/Victor
This is not even slightly true. It is precisely this point about Buddhism that makes it so different. All I have ever done in Buddhism is listen, read, and practice, without believing anything (or disbelieving anything). This is all that is required.
How badly do you want to be free of suffering? If your life is going well, perhaps you will prefer to just live it, in which case, you can take just a light interest in Buddhism. You will benefit in proportion to what you put into it. Things change, however, and old age, sickness, and death are waiting in the wings. Will you feel the same when these things come to dominate your life? Or would you rather still be free to enjoy whatever time you have, instead of agonising over the parlous state of your existence.
There is no need to have faith in reincarnation (or karma). You can achieve freedom from suffering without such faith. Because you can refrain from deciding whether karma and rebirth are true, you can be a Buddhist and a man of science and logic. There is no incompatibility between the two.
Having said that, Buddhists are not atheists: they refrain from speculating on questions to which no useful answer can be found, because such activities do not lead to freedom from suffering.
This is incorrect. All a Buddhist needs to do is listen, read, and practice. Belief is not required.
Also, just because a discussion gets a little heated is no reason to abandon it. Where people disagree strongly, there is uncertainty, and therefore potentially important learning to be had.
When it comes to suttas, dryness and pedantry are in the mind of the beholder. I find them anything but, since they offer by far the greatest treasure to be found in life.
This is an unprovable assertion.
then we have to re-read, re-think, analyse, contemplate on five aggregates, five clinging aggregates, dependent origination and practise Noble Eightfold Path
each moment there is arising of five aggregates and falling of five aggregates and that means each moment we experience suffering
when/if we are on Noble Eightfold Path , that means we are mindful therefore we are not creating cause for re-becoming (rebirth)
if/when we are not mindful we fall back to dependent origination and we are creating cause for re-becoming (re-birth)
Once we get the Right Understanding (know what exactly is the wrong view) only we can say we are on Noble Eightfold Path