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Rebirth and the end of earth
Zania
Explorer
What happens as far as rebirth goes if the world is wiped out and becomes a barren place no longer suitable for life? Where do we all go then?
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More importantly, what about aging, sickness, death and separation? Find the answer to these and you would stop worrying about rebirth.
Im not worried. Just curious. Is that a crime? I want to know where all the so called consciousness stream , energy, minds etc would go? Its akin to thinking about space and the planets etc. Its interesting and I enjoy thinking about it. I thought Buddhism was about asking questions and finding out for one self so thats what Im doing. Are Buddhists not supposed to think of anything unless it leads to peace and freedom from suffering? Sometimes I enjoy thinking about other stuff.
In answer to the second question; Buddha did indeed say that such questions are pointless and a waste of time. Sorry. (Watch this space whilst I find a quote from a sutta.)
Nios.
regards tom
I'm just wondering, what do you mean by a "consciousness stream"? Can mind exist without a physical body?
I think its 0.
Thanks, tom
There is a lot of vast universe talk in the Mahayana scriptures but I dont think it really matters.
We can come to informed conclusions and hypotheses on our own without ahistorical scriptures (Pali or Sanskrit).
We know a lot more about the physical world now than the monks who wrote things down and attributed them to the Buddha in 100 BCE.
The point here is not that we cannot come to conclusions of our own but that such questions are not necessarily linked with the Buddhist goal of Nibbana. So when someone asks about the end of the world in a Buddhist forum, it is bound to get answers like "not relevant" because it is not relevant in the Buddhist context. What is relevant to enlightenment is within the scriptures
I have absolutely no interest in this.
I couldn't possibly care less.
For the record, it shows how speculative the conclusions to this kind of questions can be and how far fetched they are from cessation of suffering
Still don't care.
The very idea of the cessation of suffering is speculative by such standards.
Modern science can provide us with insight, knowledge, and interesting discussion topics.
dry, pedantic, polemical suttas links aren't going to sway my opinions.
Noone said no. Human cloning is an interesting topic of discussion.
Welcome to the brahmajala. The network of different views and opinions about the world
So I choose to focus on suffering and its cessation living rebirth on the "jury's out" list.
nope, not a crime... it's just not helpful knowledge for you to have.
and yes, buddhism is about finding out answers to questions on your own. the only problem with this is that the buddha said to never trust answers that we do not discover to be true ourselves. never believe anything just because we have heard it or someone, even a teacher, has said it. a question such as the one you are asking... well, we'll never find that answer for ourselves. any answer is a distraction and pure speculation, at best. at worst, a delusion.
you can think about it, just realize it is a futile matter with no possibility of solution. i mean, unless it actually HAPPENED... then i suppose we'd know the truth. but why wait around for that? personally, i'd rather contemplate solutions to problems i have a chance at solving. much more beneficial.
I guess Ill just keep meditating as its relaxing , try to find my own truth and try to help people in some way but as for all the other stuff ,its all just too 'out there'. Believing in rebirths ,realms of existence, heavens ,gods etc is interesting to think about in the same way a sci fi movie is interesting but in reality in cannot be proven so its really only a theory. I know people will claim to have experienced Jesus in their lives or whatever but given the right circumstances humans can be persuaded to believe anything. I think placebo effect explains a lot. Surround yourself with thousands of ardent believers and its difficult to not get drawn in to the religious fervor.
all the best, tom
You mean rebirth right?
You called it reincarnation. I understand they are two different theories.
Where in thailand are you? I love it there. I went to Koh samui Phuket and Bangkok last year.
But yea, it took me a while to come around to this belief, but now I see truth in it personally.Some people do not take it so literally and others do.
Can I ask what do you want from a religion seeing as you have explore many of them? What drove you to do so in the first place..?
Everybody has blind faith in some things. At best you haven't uncovered yours yet.
i don't believe that buddhism is the "one true religion", all i know is that it works for me. if it doesn't work for you, well, that's okay by me... lol.
in my experience though, buddhism is really quite a lot of work. it's a lot of thinking and practice and studying and understanding... it's not exactly something that appeals to everyone. what oftentimes seems like a bunch of wacked out beliefs, overtime, makes more and more sense. thus far, whenever i've felt this way, it's always been my lack of understanding that has led to this assumption. well, combined with the fact that, like everything else, there are many opposing views and explanations. i always feel like i have to study... digest... read other views... digest... then eventually, i work it out for myself and know it to be true and understandable. i am extremely skeptical as well and studied quite a few other religions before buddhism. i always gave them a fair chance and learned as much as i could before deciding. eventually though, i left every one of them because i felt as though i was forcing myself to believe. it never just was... so far buddhism is the reining champ with over 3-4 years of study, haha. and i still feel like i've barely scratched the surface :buck:
i remember when i first learned that buddhism didn't support the idea of "reincarnation" as most new age beliefs do, what with the soul and you basically being the same but in a new body... i completely rejected it. i thought, "WHAT! this isn't what i thought buddhism is supposed to be!" but in time, i realized it was actually my adherence to this concept that was the blind faith. i never questioned this idea before and once i did, i had no support of it anymore.
you might enjoy the book, "The Universe in a Single Atom" by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. it discusses parallels between buddhism and science ranging from darwin to quantum mechanics. in it, i remember he said something along the lines of how if science ever proved buddhist beliefs to be false, then buddhism would have to change as it is the search for truth. that always stuck with me for some reason.
http://www.fennzart.com/planetarysystems/drake_equation.html
[SIZE=+2]Nc = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL[/SIZE]
<sup> </sup>
fraction of the planet's life does the civilization survive?
[/SIZE]</dt> <dt>[SIZE=+1]Answer: This is the most vague question. Using the Earth as our model, the expected lifetime
of our Solar System is approximately 10 billion years. Already communication by radio has
been for less than 100 years. How long can our civilization survive without destroy ourselves
as some predict or will we overcome our problems and survive indefinately? If doomsday came
today this figure would be 1/100,000,000th. If we survive for 10,000 more years this figure
would be 1/1,000,000th.[/SIZE]</dt>
<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"></sup>go to the link and calculate the number for different values of the variables you will find that we are most likely not alone
I know exactly how you feel. I got interested in Buddhism after watching a video of a talk given by Robina Courtin at Google titled "Be your own therapist" (highly highly recommend it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nasIq4E9nNg). Her take on Buddhism seems to be very much intellectual, viewing it as a "philosophy and practice" more than "a religion". However, once I started reading more and more, various hard-to-swallow topics came up, such as reincarnation/rebirth etc etc.
Here is one way to think about it, based on analogy with the most scientific of sciences, mathematics:
- Do you believe that 2+2=4 ? It doesn't require belief, actually. You can demonstrate it with objects. This "belief" comes from us assigning symbols and agreeing on how those symbols work and what they mean. If you don't define what "2" and "+" and "4" mean, "2+2=4" makes absolutely no sense. Same goes for many other basic fundamental notions in math.
- Do you believe that "log(xy) = log x + log y" (that is, the logarithm of the product of two numbers is the sum of the logarithms of those numbers)? Or, do you believe that "the product of any collection of compact topological spaces is compact"? If you are simply trying to calculate how much tip to leave in a restaurant, do you even care about such notions as logarithms and topology?
If you take simple but very useful things that Buddha said about human existence such as the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path (besides all of the other things that are contained in the suttas), and expound upon them in a way monks have been doing for the last 2500 years, using meditation to experience some things and theological reasoning to arrive at others, you might very well arrive to the notions of rebirth - such path will not require blind faith, since it will make sense to you in a similar way that many highly abstract and complex mathematical theorems do. You just have to select the basic/fundamental notions and a consistent way of reasoning that make sense to you. The question might not be "Do I believe in rebirth?", but "If I agree with the basic notions of Buddhism, does the notion of rebirth make sense in that whole framework?"
Pragmatic bottom line: don't let existence of abstract notions that you feel fuzzy about distract you from all of the immediately useful and accessible "stuff" that Buddhism stems from. Learn as much as you can about how people arrived at all of these notions and why. However, if you don't agree with the basics, then you should reject the whole thing and look elsewhere. If you follow this path for long enough, you just might find that rebirth makes sense, because it naturally arises from all of the other things that you already agree with. But before we get there, it might all just be Greek to you (and me). A parting thought: there is a theorem in mathematics that required more than 10,000 pages, 500 articles and 100s of mathematicians to prove, called "The classification of finite simple groups" - the idea behind it sounds as hard-to-swallow to a non-mathematician such as myself, as any higher level concepts in Buddhism, but because I accept the fundamentals of mathematics and trust the scientists, I kinda have to "believe" in the premise of that theorem...
That's my excuse to follow this particular "religion" called Buddhism, anyhow ;-)
(Sorry for long post)
Peace,
Peter
Thats your belief and not necessarily true.
Absolutely it would be hard to believe. Please dont think that I was implying such.
I copy pasted this from somewhere else. It speaks exactly to what you are talking about. Believing in rebirths ,realms of existence, heavens ,gods etc is not required nor is it necessary.:)
are you sure? i admit, i have blind faith in many things. for example, i believe that light rays bend in the presence of gravity... although if you asked me why, i'd be at a loss to explain. i also believe that the universe is constantly expanding... because i learned it in school. it would be extremely difficult and require a lot of time and effort for me to have drawn those conclusions myself. in the end, i think i just chalk it up to, "well...these people have more experience and knowledge than me, i believe i could understand this if i tried as hard as they do." i have the same approach to buddhism.
i like the parallel that Unlikelybdst drew between believing in what mathematicians and scientists tell us and believing what more knowledgeable buddhist practitioners say. it's not that i accept their ideas blindly, it's that i believe that if i study and practice enough... i too, will one day grasp that understanding. the only difference between the theory of relativity and buddhism, is that i have the desire to understand the latter.
Mtns
Expand your reading. Noone denied life on other planets. If you read the entire thread you would see that.
The "Earth" is not eternal and like anything else subject to the law of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and selflessness.
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "Monks, from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, although beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.
"There comes a time when the great ocean evaporates, dries up, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.
"There comes a time when Sineru, king of mountains, is consumed with flame, is destroyed, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.
"There comes a time when the great earth is consumed with flame, is destroyed, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.099.than.html
That is not Buddhism.
"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.
"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.
"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.
"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html
Well, all is impermanent. We die, as does the Earth. As does the Galaxy.
fin.
game over.
1. The Dalai Lama does not represent Buddhism
2. Not all Buddhists believe in rebirth and that includes great teachers
3. You clearly have no understanding of the Tibetan branches of Buddhism by words such as "get to reincarnate" and "but the rest of don't."
The idea is that the reincarnation happens because their is enough awareness or awakened consciousness to direct where you are reborn... Not everyone has enough awakened consciousness. You can call bs if you want
If it sounds elitist then maybe a teacher would not be a good fit for you right now. Not everyone is alike. Also in your argument the assumption is that tulkus are not truly reincarnating. That it is an elitist lie to puff them up. That could be true but it could be the case that they are truly reincarnating. In that case how can the truth be elitist? That would be like saying that it is elitist for a chef to be on tv. Why does he get to be on tv? I could be on tv. But I don't have the skills and fame of the chef. I can only cook a handful of things so of course I lack the abilities to be on a cooking tv show. Likewise is it elitist that a medical doctor does surgery and earns the money? Why don't I get to do surgery and paid even though I have no training or experience?
I think shenpas point is that if you read a sutra but don't yourself realize cessation of suffering that it could all be a lie. Just like if I read that buffalo chicken tastes really good but I have never tasted it it really is only an obsession of ideas for me. I could even recite scripture that discusses the reasons for each spice but unless I have tasted the chicken I don't know whether buffalo chicken is any good. I don't think shenpa is saying that he can prove that there is no buddha. But I could be wrong.
To that standpoint impermanence is apparent. And my reaction (unfavorable and suffering) is apparent. Unless I can change impermanence or my reaction to it I don't think that suffering will ever end. I take on faith that by practicing with the dharma I can slowly improve my reaction to impermanence. And that is what people should focus on rather than getting upset over buddhist politics or whatever (elitist).
Even if there is no way to overcome suffering I would still try. It would make me sad to not even try and I feel a little bit better when I work to end it.
All threads are pointless. Did you come here for enlightenment?
As you must have already realized, this type of questions have no solid answers but mere speculation or some scientific facts pointing out to a possible explanation. Even if this question has a clear cut answer, it is still irrelevant to the here and now freedom from Dukkha, which is actually what the essence of Buddhism is about. The Buddha has clearly advised his disciples to stay away from these types of questions as already quoted.
However, if it makes you happy, given below is such "speculation" which appears in the DN. I doubt this was actually spoken by the Buddha but since you seem in need of some answer, this could be a possible explanation....
According to it you go to the "World of Radiance" after the universe is gone or something... You can read more here.
About the dalai lama, I have never heard this before and do not know the truth behind it. I will leave that to someone else
This one especially so...:)
No i came to practise patience.