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Deconstructing the Self
So we are supposed to wish all 'sentient beings' happiness.
What is the difference between sentient beings and self?
If I am a sentient being then doesnt that again brings in the concept of I?
Im trying to understand Anatta more, but it is very difficult to grasp.
What is someone else's contiousness?
When I talk to somebody is it just existence talking to itself?
Trying to understand anatta has left me very confused.
I made this thread for discussion of the concept of self and idea of anatta, and how to understand it.
What is the difference between sentient beings and self?
If I am a sentient being then doesnt that again brings in the concept of I?
Im trying to understand Anatta more, but it is very difficult to grasp.
What is someone else's contiousness?
When I talk to somebody is it just existence talking to itself?
Trying to understand anatta has left me very confused.
I made this thread for discussion of the concept of self and idea of anatta, and how to understand it.
0
Comments
Accept you have the potential to change and grow for the better, and Anatta will not bother you.
Anatta or no-self is always said to be one of the fundamental points that distinguish Buddhism from other religions. Every attempt made as defining exactly what is meant by no-self ends up taking the mind in circles.
No-self means there is no eternal, unchanging thing that exists independent of the skandhas, only mind. OK I got that much. The skandhas make sense. They even fit into modern psychology, that sees the mind as made up of various active processes. So the mind, the sense of self, is a product of the skandhas operating in concert.
Yet the sutras also say that the skandhas are ultimately empty, devoid of form. Does that mean the self does not exist? No, because if you give that answer to a Zen master, he will hit you on the head with his stick and ask, What is it feeling pain, then?
And if you say, there is no individual self, that you and I are one, then why do you not feel the pain when I get hit on the head?
It's a wonderful mystery.
This takes me back to the thread I created about identity the other day. I don't like this idea of BECOMING. Who will be there to witness Nirvana and be glad he did all that?
Why not just take an extreme amount of acid, embrace ego death and live unattached from the world like those unfortunate zombies?
Ah, I had that same side once, but then I gave up on the idea of a permanent identity.
Okay, I'll explain. There is a "self" that is made up of 5 different "materials" called "Skandhas". These skandhas are Sensation, perception, emotion, consciousness, and form.
Sensation is the literal ability to sense phenomenon using the classical 5 senses.
Perceptions are models which make up thoughts in relation to what we sense.
Emotions are feelings we have towards these objects like "pleasant", "unpleasant", and "neutral".
The Consciousness is how aware we are of all the other skandhas and how they relate to one another, and is said to "Exist in the stone, sleep in a plant, awaken in an animal, and transcend itself in a human."
Form are the material 4 states of matter that make up a person's body and the energy that holds it together.
The self is none of these things, but we are constantly tricked into thinking that the self is these things. These Skandha are constantly changing with time and never stay the same, so there's no particular feeling, perception, emotion, sensation, or form that we can say is the self. That is what the Doctrine of Anatta is making us aware of.
We are not our emotions, because we do not control them.
We are not our thoughts, because we do not control them.
We are not our sensations, because we do not control them.
etc.
You only have personal thoughts, emotions, and opinions on what your identity is, and it's constantly changing, so there's no way to know who or what you are.
No one does, that's why Nirvana is the final release.
Shakyamuni and the 29 previous Buddhas and countless Arahants all bear witness. The Sangha also will and do bear witness to such miracles. :rolleyes:
Uh, because mindfulness won't happen when you're drugged.
You're like a little child who looks up into the sky, decides the moon will make you happy if you can sleep with it for a toy, and then stomp your feet and scream in anger when told we can't give it to you.
FPW gave you your answer. If you refuse the truth because it's not what you want, what are you left with?
I will not. It might not be as encompassing as I see it right now, but there has to be something. I already know I'm "just" an amalgam of atoms.
Why would we need to control them in order to be them? Being is just that, being. May be the parts by themselves are nothing, but the ensemble is what makes ME different from YOU. Which I am, otherwise we wouldn't need this conversation
What about memory?
I don't know what those rolling eyes mean, but I was talking, how can "I" know that I have awakened?
Says who? I'm talking about people AFTER taking LSD, not while on it.
And actually, MDMA, Ecstasy, is the closest phenomenon to extreme mindfulness and compassion and awareness that I have experienced/witnessed.
Who is this we?
I don't refuse or accept the truth. The truth can only be realized by ourselves. I'm not saying it's not what I want. I'm saying there doesn't seem to be logical explanation for it. There are claims, that this or that, is not the self, but none of what is the self. And if there is no self, there is no good in the world. They are BOTH abstract concepts. As most other words.
And you think more words are going to make a difference? All words are abstracts. All statements are claims. So what answer will make you happy?
Are you unhappy that awakening has a price? The price of waking up is that you have to stop dreaming. The price of seeing the world with a clear mind is that you no longer have the comfort of illusions. This self that is scared of change is an illusion. You're always changing. The belief that there is some unchanging self if illusion. Yes, you must give that up. That is the price. It WILL change you. Isn't that what you want? If not, you're looking in the wrong place here.
When you ask who will be around when enter Nirvana, you're asking the wrong question. If I ask you, "How far is East?" and refuse anything but a number, what would you tell me? Go that way? But how far? Just that way. East is a direction, not a distance. No, I demand a number. How far? If you don't tell me how far East is, I'll get mad!
How can it change if it doesn't exist? What is changing? And what is staying the same throughout the whole process? Memory?
The problem is, there is a huge difference between abstract knowledge and direct experience. Our language isn't designed to deal with something that can't be compared to something else. "This is like..." is the best we can do. But what if there's nothing we can compare it, whatever it is, to? Anything we say beyond that would only mislead you.
We in Zen Buddhism know this, and we're not playing sadistic games because we like it. The mind is a product of all the processes we call skandhas working together. One important element that makes up your mind is memory. Think how changed you would be, if you lost all memories of what happened before today! But would "you" still exist? A very changed you would exist.
But even your memories are constantly changing, being added to, forgetting unimportant events, memories even change and we actually make up memories of things that don't happen. So memories are actually not solid things, either. In other words, they're empty of form.
Now go through the skandhas, each one, and determine if anything exists beyond an ever-changing pattern of movement. Even the body is ever changing, the physical brain that houses our minds.
But, the sum is greater than the parts. We are more than our memories, our bodies, our habits and even thoughts. So what are we? Words fail. But you can go beyond words. After all, we're talking about a mind here. You have one available, right now. Doesn't it seem a little strange, that you have to ask someone to tell you what you are? Don't you know? What are you? All you have to do is look into the mirror.
Not a regular mirror. An empty mirror. One that allows you to see not the body, but the mind. I can't tell you more than that, because I don't have the words.
Words can't express everything, I agree. And yet, here we are on a buddhist forum with nothing but the Buddha's words to base so much of our assumptions on.
Okay, if all of this is true, then Nirvana isn't separate from the process of change. Nirvana changes into non-Nirvana too, right?
Another thing I still don't understand about Buddhism - is there anything permanent in all of existence? Is the mind impermanent?
I think the problem arises from the translation of anatta (anatman) as no-self rather than non-self, or what would make even more sense to a Western minset, no-soul.
The self exists but it is impermanent, transitory and subject to dependant origination (as are all things). What the mind is now depends on what has gone before, and what is occuring in it's current environment. The mind, the self, cannot stand alone, it has no independant existance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=961Mq_1O1QI&feature=related
I don't know. Never been there. When you get there, you'll find out. I'm not being flippant, I just don't deal in Nirvana.
The very atoms of your body were formed in the heart of exploding stars billions of years ago. The universe is all about change. Permanence? You mean unchanging? No, there is nothing unchanging in the world according to Buddhist philosophy, although it can seem that way to our limited viewpoints. The mountain is expected to remain, but funny how the ice cap at the top of it seems to be disappearing with global warming. Eventually the mountain itself will be gone, but we won't be around to see it. Change.
But, the fact that everything is constantly changing, transforming into something else, doesn't mean life isn't prescious and has no meaning. It's even more precious because of it.
Its not me that does all those things. I can see my hands cleaning the dishes, but nope...I'm sure as hell not doing it!
Oh semantics, what a wonderful world of confusion you make.
That makes sense. And yes, I never believed in the soul. That is why I'm careful as to what change I promote in myself. Don't want to become a detached zombie. If I change, and it to be for better. Not for worse.
Which reminds me....your explanation could kinda sound like determinism. Did the Buddha believe in free will?
Meaning is another illusion created by the mind is it not? And so is preciousness...they are value judgements. I'm wary of detaching too much from my self, because I know it is what confers value to things in the first place!
sentient beings is everyone.
No, you're confusing Buddhism with Nihilism. A lot of people do. We value our own lives and the lives of others. We value them even more because we know life is impermanent.
A little thought experiment. Tonight, you'll probably just putter around and rather aimlessly kill some time. Surf the web a little, see if a show or game is on television, and if you have a significant other, maybe even get in a fight over what show to watch. Why not? It's just another day in an unchanging string of evenings you're planning on getting through.
But suppose you knew that you were going to die very soon? Wouldn't tonight suddenly be very valuable to you? Wouldn't every hour, minute, and second suddenly become precious? Would you kill time, get in silly arguments?
Life can be valuable not because you're clinging to life, but because you know how rare and fleeting life will be and don't want to waste it.
"Imagine Lisa was terrified of the dark; she keep herself locked in her room with all of the lights open. She doesn't want to go out of her room because it would be far more difficult to control the environment and the people in the outside world. Someone may turn off the light which would make Lisa freak out!! Lisa feel safe in her room.
Lisa love being in her room. She feel safe.
If Lisa ever lose her fear of the dark, do you think she will be a different person?"
Do you think that she would have let go of her fear because she became a mindless zombie? she will become a detached zombie because she let go of her fear?
Freeing yourself from all of your attachments does exactly this.
The reason you eventually decide to let go of the attachments is because you realize that you are keeping yourself as a prisoner with them; hence the experience and the wisdom gained.
You do not let go of your attachments because you somehow become a mindless zombie.
That Ajahn Chah's quote suits here perfectly.
The whole point is, if it's about experience, why must I conform to Ajahn Chah's experience? If it's about experience why is there a way to get there (dharma)?
This is a delusion. If you are sure you are your thoughts, then I could prove you, that you are not. Just try to silence any thoughts for 5 mins. If you can't, could you still stay you are your thoughts?
And no, it's not only you, but most of the humanity.
Spiritual leaders are there to point and guide you in the right direction.
But since you ask this, to me you do not seem to understand why would someone need guidance. "Guidance for what etc..." Am i right?
Perhaps one day you will feel like you could use guidance for something, and you will not have to be explained what that something is
But right now, perhaps in your situation, it may be good to just go out and live your life.
Isn't that the same thing as clinging? Not wanting to waste is a form of clinging. It's still about desire.
Lisa stopped valuing the light, because she is no longer afraid of the dark.
When I say mindless zombie...really my biggest fear is others not being able to relate. That instead of buddhism bringing me closer to others, it will set me apart. I wonder if anyone interviewed the Buddha's wife and child.
Being only takes breathing and nutrition for the body to function. Is someone in a coma living? Yes, technically. They still ARE something.
They seem to wash away as we keep practicing, tho.
I hope you will find the answers you are looking for. All the best. -_-
I value guidance a great deal. Honest guidance, that is meant only to make me understand for myself better. That's why I'm talking with you guys
it's not a zero sum game; fortunately
Since from realization come wisdom and self knowledge, you will be able to relate better to everyone don't you think?
Is it not?
It's not being my experience, as I try to practice Right Word, for example. Buddhism tells us that a lot of the attachments we have are the source of the suffering. So, maybe I'm being deluded into thinking my friends thus far will like my new self. I don't look kindly on a life of constantly letting go of everything that has brought me joy in the past.
I'd say it might take equal realization and wisdom and self-knowledge for my friends to relate better to me.
What is a conditioned thing? Can you give me an example of a non-conditioned thing, as well?
I answered this already with the Lisa story. Have you forgotten already or have you dismissed it perhaps?
If Lisa was your friend, and you'd knew her for being always terrifyed; would you find it more difficult to relate to her once she has lost her fear?
Perhaps if you shared a similar fear; but you are likely to be happy for her and still be able to relate because she has been where you are and she intimately understand your fears.
No, it's not the same thing.
And, it is becoming obvious that you aren't going to be satisfied no matter what anyone says, because you keep making the same objections in different words in spite of what people say. We keep telling you that you're not going to find words here to satisfy your desires or relieve your fears. I don't think continuing to answer your objections will help you. You want to consume a huge feast in one bite.
In Zen there is a famous story about a student and a full tea cup. If your cup is already full, how can we add anything to it? You'll have to set aside your own opinions and preconceived notions and simply listen, and contemplate the wisdom of the words. Some things will become clear, some will remain mysteries.
Something which exists because of causes or conditions. and Existence.
No. I'm not a friend-pleaser.
I haven't forgotten or dismissed it, I counter-argued.
That's not exactly what I mean. The fear metaphor doesn't really apply to my friends exactly. With friends, it's more about my spiritual path turning me into a person they don't relate to anymore. Now, of course I'm not gonna stop changing just because of my friends, but I guess I'd like assurance that I don't need to cut ties with all the good things I value in service of my spiritual path (which can take me anywhere really).
I'd like to add I don't want you to feel obliged to debate with me
I ask questions, it's what I do. I question everything. It's how I learn.
It's funny, you want to know what was the first word that came to mind when I read that story for the first time (I had read it once before) ? "Brainwashing"
I contemplate the words. Just because I argue about them, doesn't mean I don't. But I could be fed any kind of word. I'm not a fan of indoctrination, that's why I need things to make sense. Because what's the alternative? To trust arbitrarly?
Whose? The individual's existence? Or the universe's? I can't really know if the universe has always been there.
I might agree more with time is permanent. After all permanence is a concept that only makes sense when we take time into account.
I was thinking of trying that, but apparently its bad for people with anxiety disorders.
bad trips....never done it, but used to want to do it really badly until I got into buddhism. Eh, my mind's as open as it's gonna get.
I'm still considering it. But like TheJourney it kinda of diminished now that I'm dabbling into buddhism.
Whether I do or not, I want to first become at peace with myself in some ways before I do. I thought of it as a deus ex machina for some of my problems - an opportunity to face myself. But deus ex machinas are the stuff of fiction.
any recommended meditation techniques?
Recently I've been learning how to detach myself from my thoughts, to let the unpleasant things drop away, and to realize how I cause my own stress.
But most of my friends don't know anything about Buddhism, and when I see them being stressed out in the same ways I am...I feel like I can't say anything because it will sound snobbish or condescending. Like, if i say to my friend "You are upset because you experiencing irrational jealousy. You need to let your jealousy go." that may be a correct analysis, but it can sound extremely self-righteous. Some people don't want to be taught any spiritual lessons, they just want you to act sorry for them.
But in that same vein, there is no reason not to continue your quest of spiritual growth. Just remember to practice giving love and kindness, and there is no way you could hurt any of your relationships. If you give love and kindness to your friends and they might think you are strange at first, just keep at it. Eventually they will realize that you have figured something out and appreciate you even more.
Also remember that sometimes the problem really lies in the image you have about yourself. Are you obsessed with trying to be "cool" and have tons of friends?
The example i gave you fit perfectly; the changes that your friends will witness are all exactly like the one you would observe with the fear example.
regardless it would be about video games, fears, sadness, stress etc...
the only difference would be about the intensity of the emotional reactions. asking questions is great, but perhaps taking a little bit more time to reflect on the answers and internalize them would allow you to find more answers to your questions, or be able to develop them and explore the concepts a little deeper...
But sorry, I do think I counter-argued. Lisa valued light as a means to escape darkness. After escaping the fear of darkness where is the want for light? Or the need, even?
Not exactly. I will say my most happy moments have always been in socialization. Not going to the club or anything like that mind you, just talking with people. As much as I'm fascinated by the hermit life, I know I couldn't do it. I even think better when I have regular socialization. I don't need to be the center of attention, but I need to share with people. I don't need tons of friends, but I do to feel I have to have real friends I can depend on. And people fascinate me. I like to talk with strangers too sometimes.
including light and darkness.
Thats pretty similar to the way I feel. I like people, I feel a fellowly connection with all humans. I don't care what religion they practice..although I do appreciate people who act with some sort of a moral compass. My closest friends are all really good people at heart, people who I would trust with my life.
But I think bringing buddhist practice into my life is simply a matter of time and understanding. A year ago I would never have admitted to anyone that I meditate due to fear of people thinking I was weird. Now I admit it and even ask other people if they try it. It's actually interesting to hear people's thoughts about it.
Just remember, mindfulness doesn't change who you are, more like it reveals yourself to yourself, and slowly strips away your conditioning. Once you understand yourself better, it becomes easier to communicate with others.
^ THIS