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Also remember that sometimes the problem really lies in the image you have about yourself. Are you obsessed with trying to be "cool" and have tons of friends?
Insight or vipassana type practice is usually recommended. However, concentration is necessary to develop as well. This is a good article and mentions techniques from several traditions. http://www.buddhanet.net/anattamed.htm
I will not. It might not be as encompassing as I see it right now, but there has to be something. I already know I'm "just" an amalgam of atoms.
Then you will continue to be unhappy and will never have a "sense" of the existence of others. It'll continue to be colored solely from your own perspective, and will be like seeing people through sunglasses. You never see people for how they are, nor do you see anything for how it is.
Why would we need to control them in order to be them? Being is just that, being.
Actually the point is that because you aren't them, there's no way to "be" through them.
May be the parts by themselves are nothing, but the ensemble is what makes ME different from YOU. Which I am, otherwise we wouldn't need this conversation
You AREN'T different from me. That's another point.
What about memory?
Memory is a fantasy. We can say my car is real, but a pink unicorn is imagined. We say that they have to be different, and as you sit here in front of your keyboard, your car exists for you only in your memory, a place in your mind, the pink unicorn lives in the same place. They are equal. You might think that yes, this is true but I can go out and drive my car, but I can’t ride a pink unicorn. But it rained yesterday. Was the rain from yesterday real? I could say yes, but I can’t see or touch that rain now, can I? Like the pink unicorn, the past exists only in my mind.
Likewise, the future exists only in my mind because it has not happened. I can find evidence of the past. I can check with the weather people and confirm that it rained yesterday and when I get that confirmation, it would instantly become the past itself. So in effect, I would be using the past, which does not exist, to confirm something else from the past. And if I repeat the process a thousand times,with a thousand different pieces of evidence, together they would still be nothing but impressions of the past supporting other impressions of the past.
We are constantly trying to sort out evidence of the present into impressions stored in our minds and we are certain our evidence is solid and irrefutable, but our mind will mold the facts and shape the clues until it all fits. Clinical psychologists have proven that ordinary people will alter their memories of the past to make them fit their own mistaken perceptions. It is the way all normal brains function under ordinary circumstances. We see this in eyewitness testimonies all the time. They try and use information to color what they have seen and when presented with pictures, they'll think what they saw was who was in the picture, but in reality, no such person was there.
I don't know what those rolling eyes mean, but I was talking, how can "I" know that I have awakened?
You no longer live in the past, no longer are ignorant, no longer skeptical, no longer have greed, ill will, no longer have a self, no longer see others as separate from yourself, no longer have to convince yourself to stop repeating bad habits, no longer have lustful feelings, no longer feel bored, and no longer are conceited ever.
Says who? I'm talking about people AFTER taking LSD, not while on it.
No drug can awaken you. They just add more delusion.
And actually, MDMA, Ecstasy, is the closest phenomenon to extreme mindfulness and compassion and awareness that I have experienced/witnessed.
Not that I don't value your opinion, but most of the things you said were stated as facts, in the sense everything is clear and there is something wrong with me for not believing it.
Have you ever taken MDMA? MDMA might make you more selfish. It hasn't made me any more selfish. In fact, that one MDMA experience is responsible for me even being here and exploring buddhism, because I came into contact with a heightened sense of empathy and mindfulness.
"No drug can awaken you", is the closed statement based on I don't know what. You do realize that all the effort we put into meditation or whichever human practice, is essentially just shaping our brain right? I'm not saying drugs awaken you, but it isn't very wise to assume they never will, or would or do to some extent.
I think I am different from you. Please try and explain why I'm not.
I think you have accepted some things as fact and are giving explanations to serve those "facts" (which, I could just as easily call fantasies like you did "memory") instead of opening up to the idea that all of this (buddhism or whatever else) might be wrong or that your interpretation might be wrong.
Not that I don't value your opinion, but most of the things you said were stated as facts, in the sense everything is clear and there is something wrong with me for not believing it.
Actually yes there is something wrong for not believing it. You're hurting yourself, therefore you're hurting others who care about you, and people around you.
Have you ever taken MDMA? MDMA might make you more selfish. It hasn't made me any more selfish.
Bull. Taking drugs hurts yourself and others. You think you're not affecting others around you? Take a hard look at yourself and then say that again. It's a lie that you really need to take a look at.
In fact, that one MDMA experience is responsible for me even being here and exploring buddhism, because I came into contact with a heightened sense of empathy and mindfulness.
Or maybe you had that empathy and mindfulness on your own, but you associate it with the drugs. "How could I have done that on my own? It had to be the drugs!" Those are lies. The drugs just made your sense of heedlessness go up.
"No drug can awaken you", is the closed statement based on I don't know what.
Based on experience. It doesn't work bro.
You do realize that all the effort we put into meditation or whichever human practice, is essentially just shaping our brain right?
It's not shaping our brain it's shaping our mind. Our brain doesn't change, but the brainwaves might.
I'm not saying drugs awaken you, but it isn't very wise to assume they never will, or would or do to some extent.
No it is not. It's outright stupid to think they will unless by that you mean realizing that you don't need drugs. To think drugs are a portal to awakening in any shape or form is nonsense. I won't pull my punches on this.
I think I am different from you. Please try and explain why I'm not.
You and I are both humans, we both have emotions, perceptions, sensations, consciousness, and form. We have memories, we have ideas, and we both don't want to suffer. We both want to be happy.
I think you have accepted some things as fact and are giving explanations to serve those "facts" (which, I could just as easily call fantasies like you did "memory") instead of opening up to the idea that all of this (buddhism or whatever else) might be wrong or that your interpretation might be wrong.
Nope, the only thing that you haven't realized is that the only reason you suffer is that you created the shackles of your own making to hold yourself back.
Actually yes there is something wrong for not believing it. You're hurting yourself, therefore you're hurting others who care about you, and people around you.
Give me a break. It's one thing to recognize the merits of selflessness, it's quite another to say there is something wrong about me for not just swallowing what is presented to me.
Bull. Taking drugs hurts yourself and others. You think you're not affecting others around you? Take a hard look at yourself and then say that again. It's a lie that you really need to take a look at.
I don't TAKE drugs. I did MDMA a couple of times. And I hurt no one around me. Quite the contrary. I the most honest talk with my best friend in 10 years. And you haven't answered if you taken it or not. I cannot comprehend this kind of mind frame from a so-called buddhist. I'm not addicted to the drug or anything. Alcohol is much more dangerous btw.
Or maybe you had that empathy and mindfulness on your own, but you associate it with the drugs. "How could I have done that on my own? It had to be the drugs!" Those are lies. The drugs just made your sense of heedlessness go up.
I don't associate ANYTHING. Don't put words in my mouth. I KNOW how the drug actually works at a neurological level. Like I said, it set me on the path to mindfulness because of it. It's about quieting the rational mind.
Based on experience. It doesn't work bro.
It's not safe. There is a difference. I'm not gonna shun meditation if I don't become englithened after trying it once. And besides that's not the point!! I'm not promoting drugs as a means to achieve enlightenment. I'm I talking to the holy inquisition here?
It's not shaping our brain it's shaping our mind. Our brain doesn't change, but the brainwaves might.
Don't mock me. I know what it does. It blocks certain parts of the brain temporarily. It doesn't shape permanently. The brain doesn't change into a cabbage no.
No it is not. It's outright stupid to think they will unless by that you mean realizing that you don't need drugs. To think drugs are a portal to awakening in any shape or form is nonsense. I won't pull my punches on this.
What is stupid is your stance. I'm being agnostic about the whole thing. What I'm saying is that they can be a relevant experience for some, and you are no one to say otherwise.
You and I are both humans, we both have emotions, perceptions, sensations, consciousness, and form. We have memories, we have ideas, and we both don't want to suffer. We both want to be happy.
So? Commonalities don't imply we have to be the same. We are similar, not necessarily the same. If nothing else you are in another location than I am right now in time.
Nope, the only thing that you haven't realized is that the only reason you suffer is that you created the shackles of your own making to hold yourself back.
And apparently you have substituted whichever ones you had with new ones by being fanatic about the whole thing. I'm inquiring. I don't choose a thing to believe in and then stick to it. It's constantly changing. I owe no buddhist or buddhist current my allegiance or faith. I'm open to being wrong, are you?
Give me a break. It's one thing to recognize the merits of selflessness, it's quite another to say there is something wrong about me for not just swallowing what is presented to me.
Right because you didn't know what you were doing? Give me a break. You know what taking the drugs does to your body, and your mind. It's selfish to poison yourself and not think you're not hurting anyone.
I don't TAKE drugs. I did MDMA a couple of times. And I hurt no one around me.
Nonsense. You hurt yourself and others. Haven't you thought what taking drugs does to yourself beyond the high?
Quite the contrary. I the most honest talk with my best friend in 10 years. And you haven't answered if you taken it or not.
Yes, I did, when I said I had experience.
I cannot comprehend this kind of mind frame from a so-called buddhist.
A so-called Buddhist is mindful, concentrates, and puts effort to understand reality.
I'm not addicted to the drug or anything.
Okay then, why are you taking it?
Alcohol is much more dangerous btw.
And alcohol is also bad for you, and also something we're not supposed to use for the sake of staying aware of our actions and thoughts. Your point?
I don't associate ANYTHING. Don't put words in my mouth. I KNOW how the drug actually works at a neurological level.
So then you know what it does. It's damaging you, and by doing that you're damaging yourself and others. People do care about you y'know. They don't want you to mess up your brain any more than I do.
Like I said, it set me on the path to mindfulness because of it.
Actually you haven't taken the steps and gone through the motions, you've been making excuses NOT to be mindful in all the posts I've seen. You're consciously avoiding mindfulness.
It's about quieting the rational mind.
On the contrary, it's not the rationality it's awakening the insight and unconditioning the mind.
It's not safe. There is a difference.
So you recognize it is dangerous. How is it dangerous? :rolleyes:
I'm not gonna shun meditation if I don't become englithened after trying it once.
Good.
And besides that's not the point!!
Yes it is.
I'm not promoting drugs as a means to achieve enlightenment. I'm I talking to the holy inquisition here?
Don't mock me. I know what it does. It blocks certain parts of the brain temporarily.
It causes a reduction in the concentration of serotonin transporters to the point of neurotoxicity. The potential brain damage is mostly irreversible. Welcome to reality. Can I take your order?
It doesn't shape permanently. The brain doesn't change into a cabbage no.
Your neurons stop firing and they don't let your serotonin transporters reach your brain. They make you unable to experience happiness in the longterm.
What is stupid is your stance.
I'm not fencing here bro. There's no stance. Only reality.
I'm being agnostic about the whole thing.
There's nothing unknowable about the damage of MDMA. Nor how it affects your brain, it's all knowable and the damage observable.
What I'm saying is that they can be a relevant experience for some, and you are no one to say otherwise.
Actually I am saying yes, I am someone to say otherwise. And the right person to say otherwise. Stop taking ze drugs.
So? Commonalities don't imply we have to be the same.
We are the same. As you said, we're a mass of atoms and particles in a sea of energy. All the same to even a fundamental level.
We are similar, not necessarily the same.
how are we different? Don't talk about impressions, because impressions tell us nothing.
If nothing else you are in another location than I am right now in time.
According to quantum physics we are entangled and neither separated by space, nor time.
And apparently you have substituted whichever ones you had with new ones by being fanatic about the whole thing.
The word fanatic implies implicitly that you think I am wrong. Prove it?
I'm inquiring.
To inquire means to ask. You have asked nothing. You are asserting. Your assertions are fallacious.
I don't choose a thing to believe in and then stick to it.
I don't believe in anything. Belief is cheap. I have insight, I use it.
It's constantly changing.
And that's a fact of Anatta. You are constantly changing. So your identity is never solid! Welcome to Buddhism 101. You have learned.
I owe no buddhist or buddhist current my allegiance or faith.
And what faith are you?
I'm open to being wrong, are you?
I'm open to anything, especially being wrong. There's a 100% chance I'm wrong about something. What it is I do not yet know. But about this? No way.
The snowflake because its ego sees itself as the master of universe. He is the leader of individuality because there will never be another him, he stands alone in the wind cold, and lonely falling to his inevitable doom with nothing but horror befalling him until he reaches the ultimate destination. The wise Buddha steps back and sees the snow for what it is. SNOW.
The thing that helped me finally understand anatta and prevent it from becoming one big clusterf*ck of a headtrip was the practice of the brahmaviharas ("divine abodes"): metta (lovingkindness), karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy), and upekka (equanimity). Particularly Sharon Salzberg's book on these practices (Lovingkindness: The Revolutionary Art of Happiness) has been very helpful to me in learning what we're actually expected to do with the teaching of anatta.
I think people make a bigger deal out of this teaching than is needed. You can see a brief interview with Salzberg (and her friend Sylvia Boorstein) here in which she addresses this teaching. I have seen a lot of people get hung up on this teaching and become neurotic, doubting their own existence and the validity of things like friendship, happiness, love, kindness, etc. It's very easy to fall into complete nihilism. If you find the teaching disturbing, don't sweat it. It doesn't have to be a part of your practice until it absolutely is necessary. When is it absolutely necessary? It will reveal itself to you in moments where you realize a lot of the suffering you're carrying around with you is the result of holding onto ideas about yourself that are just "made up" and do not reflect reality as it is happening.
Right because you didn't know what you were doing? Give me a break. You know what taking the drugs does to your body, and your mind. It's selfish to poison yourself and not think you're not hurting anyone.
LOL, that's not what I meant by swallowing what is presented to me. What YOU are doing is swallowing what is presented to you. You are just reiterating dharma as facts and hitting me over the head for not acknowledging their oh-so-obvious merit. What I meant was that when it comes to anatta, I recognize it's benefits, but I still don't understand what it would mean to tame the self completely (nirvana).
Nonsense. You hurt yourself and others. Haven't you thought what taking drugs does to yourself beyond the high?
You are saying I'm hurting others, but not saying how exactly I'm doing that.
A so-called Buddhist is mindful, concentrates, and puts effort to understand reality.
Even if that means questioning buddhism itself?
Okay then, why are you taking it?
I'm taking I took. I don't beat people up, I slapped a kid in 5th grade.
And alcohol is also bad for you, and also something we're not supposed to use for the sake of staying aware of our actions and thoughts. Your point?
That maybe for some people, it takes doing something stupid while drunk to realize the importance of awareness.
So then you know what it does. It's damaging you, and by doing that you're damaging yourself and others. People do care about you y'know. They don't want you to mess up your brain any more than I do.
The side effects of MDMA are absurdly misconstrued. It's has been used in post-traumatic stress disorder with amazing results. Meditation, and letting go is a form of brain damage too in the sense that it "reinforces or lessens the strength of our synapses". And I say that figuratively.
Actually you haven't taken the steps and gone through the motions, you've been making excuses NOT to be mindful in all the posts I've seen. You're consciously avoiding mindfulness.
What do you know about me? Oh, wait, I forget we are the same. So you are aware of everything I do. Your broad generalization of how you perceive my posts, is probably false, and it fails to understand why I post in the first place. I'm not trying to practice mindfulness when posting. I'm gathering analytical information.
On the contrary, it's not the rationality it's awakening the insight and unconditioning the mind.
Did you even read my post? Mindfulness is NOT about rationality. It's about not grasping thought after all. And while MDMA I grasped thought a lot less. That's what I meant.
So you recognize it is dangerous. How is it dangerous? :rolleyes:
I'm talking about LSD when I say it's dangerous. Not MDMA. MDMA still is dangerous like most anything has the ability to be. But LSD can be quite traumatic and irreversible in a much deeper level. I know of no one that has taken MDMA once and gone insane.
Yes it is.
Are you trying to irritate me to make me look dumb? Are you saying I'm saying drugs are the path to enlightenment? NO I'm not. That was not my point.
It causes a reduction in the concentration of serotonin transporters to the point of neurotoxicity. The potential brain damage is mostly irreversible. Welcome to reality. Can I take your order?
OMG neurotoxicity, brain damage. They both sound like frightening processes if you don't know what they actually entail. Demagogy is not gonna take you anywhere. Or maybe you were fooled by others yourself into misconstruing what they exactly entail. A heartbreak is a lot more "neurotoxic" than a pill of MDMA, for example. Events in life, change the brain. All events.
Your neurons stop firing and they don't let your serotonin transporters reach your brain. They make you unable to experience happiness in the longterm.
BS. There is no proof of that. People who have taken unimaginable doses of MDMA throughout life have problems in the long term. But there are a lot of casual consumers I know personally who don't lead unhappier lives than they have ever lived. I sure don't.
I'm not fencing here bro. There's no stance. Only reality.
Which I'm too arrogant to acknowledge is something you are much more intimate with than I am, I'm sure.
There's nothing unknowable about the damage of MDMA. Nor how it affects your brain, it's all knowable and the damage observable.
The studies made 20 years ago say different things than the ones done today. There is a lot of politics involved too.
Actually I am saying yes, I am someone to say otherwise. And the right person to say otherwise. Stop taking ze drugs.
Than you are being blatantly disrespectful of me when I openly admit that without my first experience of MDMA I wouldn't have explored buddhism.
Even bad experiences reveal great lessons.
We are the same. As you said, we're a mass of atoms and particles in a sea of energy. All the same to even a fundamental level.
You're blind. You are not even talking with me on the same level of understanding. A stone is also a mass of atoms, and I'm not a stone.
how are we different? Don't talk about impressions, because impressions tell us nothing.
We are different because if we weren't this would be a monologue and not a dialogue.
According to quantum physics we are entangled and neither separated by space, nor time.
Are you sure you are confident in your knowledge of quantum physics to make that claim? I have quite a lot of physicist friends. If anyone had any certaintinties you'd heard about it already, don't worry. Quantum has only proved useful (notice I didn't use the word right) at a very small scale, for the most part.
The word fanatic implies implicitly that you think I am wrong. Prove it?
No, the world fanatic implies you don't care if you are right or wrong because you already accepted something as right.
To inquire means to ask. You have asked nothing. You are asserting. Your assertions are fallacious.
Oh, yeah, what am I asserting then exactly?
I don't believe in anything. Belief is cheap. I have insight, I use it.
I hope one day I have as much insight as you clearly do.
And that's a fact of Anatta. You are constantly changing. So your identity is never solid! Welcome to Buddhism 101. You have learned.
Ya know, for all the insight you have, you are showing a lot of contempt and mockery of my posts.
I didn't need Anatta or Buddhism to realize the whole of me is always changing.
And what faith are you?
Nothing. What little faith I have is geared towards conscious lies like I'm gonna be content someday with my life, and my family will always love me, and stuff like that.
I'm open to anything, especially being wrong. There's a 100% chance I'm wrong about something. What it is I do not yet know. But about this? No way.
You already lost the battle then. Thinking you know anything is not very conductive of improvement.
The snowflake because its ego sees itself as the master of universe. He is the leader of individuality because there will never be another him, he stands alone in the wind cold, and lonely falling to his inevitable doom with nothing but horror befalling him until he reaches the ultimate destination. The wise Buddha steps back and sees the snow for what it is. SNOW.
I'm sure that gave the snowflake much comfort as he broke his neck when falling on the floor.
LOL, that's not what I meant by swallowing what is presented to me.
You mean accepting that jagged little pill we call truth, facts, perspective, coffee?? What are you talking about?
What YOU are doing is swallowing what is presented to you. You are just reiterating dharma as facts and hitting me over the head for not acknowledging their oh-so-obvious merit.
No I'm hitting you over the head with facts about drugs being bad for you. I didn't even mention the Dharma in relation to that. I did however say poison's bad for the brain, and exactly how it is bad for the brain.
What I meant was that when it comes to anatta, I recognize it's benefits, but I still don't understand what it would mean to tame the self completely (nirvana).
That all depends on you. No one can tell you that, but we can point the way. We've been trying really hard to explain it in easy ways for you to digest, but rather than listen to what we have to say you heatbutt and deny, which is not going to help you at all. It makes things worse.
You are saying I'm hurting others, but not saying how exactly I'm doing that.
A person who is ignorant how their drug use hurts others doesn't consider how their life relates to others.You may think that substance abuse is your choice and only your business. The truth is that you are victimizing the people who love you and depend on you. The results of drug abuse become more obvious as you become more involved in it. Illegal drugs have all sorts of chemical cocktails, and they screw your head up in more ways than just mere speculation. Over a period of time, many family members begin to experience emotions that leave them feeling burnt out, and this also includes your relationships. They become taxing.
Even if that means questioning buddhism itself?
Especially questioning Buddha himself. How would one trust the attainment of Nirvana without trusting that somehow it was attainable. You have to ask yourself how he was able to do such a thing, if it were possible, and why would you take that leap of faith and believe. I made the leap because it actually works, and has worked for me.
I'm taking I took. I don't beat people up, I slapped a kid in 5th grade.
And that means what? That you're powerful exercising restraint? What does that mean? To take a look means you look at a teaching in the way that a child does. They test and see what works.
That maybe for some people, it takes doing something stupid while drunk to realize the importance of awareness.
Are you willing to put yourself and others at risk when you know that that is the likely cost? You hurt yourself or someone else just to find out what you knew all along? That it's stupid to do? This is why I'm telling you. You are being selfish.
The side effects of MDMA are absurdly misconstrued.
The affect of MDMA is not misconstrued at all. They're directly observed.
It's has been used in post-traumatic stress disorder with amazing results.
That is because in PTSD the person's Serotonin is already messed up and it causes the Seratonin to be shot out to excess and reputake to replenish lost neurotransmitters, but you aren't with PTSD are you? You're not taking it because you are sick, but because you want a high, and so you make excuses.
Meditation, and letting go is a form of brain damage too in the sense that it "reinforces or lessens the strength of our synapses". And I say that figuratively.
No it does not. Meditation does no such thing. Now you're talking out of nonsense metaphorical malarkey. I am brutal with that kinda stuff so I recommend you keep it to a minimum unless you want me to deconstruct it. You've been warned.
What do you know about me?
You broke up with your girlfriend and she moved on and you didn't. You are skeptical of Buddhism and yet you are drawn to it not as a valid philosophy but as a form of escape. You want to escape but are so desparately tied to a sense of self because I think you feel it's all you have left.
Oh, wait, I forget we are the same.
That's indeed true. :P
So you are aware of everything I do. Your broad generalization of how you perceive my posts, is probably false, and it fails to understand why I post in the first place.
Hehe I doubt it.
I'm not trying to practice mindfulness when posting. I'm gathering analytical information.
I'm sure, but if that is true, you'd take what we've told you about it and tried to see if it is true. Take a step in the direction to where you become aware of what and why you want to know. You want the truth don't you?
Did you even read my post? Mindfulness is NOT about rationality.
That's my point.
It's about not grasping thought after all. And while MDMA I grasped thought a lot less. That's what I meant.
It's not about not grasping thought. A worm doesn't think much but that doesn't grant him Nirvana does it? Meditation and mindfulness is the process of transcending thought processes. Our mind is a non-stop chatterbox that continues to create all sorts of good/ bad, relevant /irrelevant thoughts incessantly. In meditation we realize that we are not just our body and mind. There exists in us an awareness independent of all kinds of thoughts. Knowing this awareness is what meditation is all about. It's not just not thinking it's being aware of what you think and why you think that way. Meditation does not mean trying to have a blank mind. There is a difference between not being distracted and having a blank mind. Not being distracted means not getting caught up in thinking, not internally daydreaming to oneself. Keep the intention on the purpose of the meditation, which is to go deeper and deeper into calm-abiding.
I'm talking about LSD when I say it's dangerous. Not MDMA. MDMA still is dangerous like most anything has the ability to be. But LSD can be quite traumatic and irreversible in a much deeper level. I know of no one that has taken MDMA once and gone insane.
Ironic because LSD doesn't physically harm a person at all but can emotionally tear them to shreds, but MDMA actually physically rips at the Neurotransmitters in the brain, and those can NEVER heal once fully gone.
Are you trying to irritate me to make me look dumb? Are you saying I'm saying drugs are the path to enlightenment? NO I'm not. That was not my point.
That's all you bro. Stop taking ze drugs, I repeat, Drugs take away from your mindfulness, and is terrible for your practice.
OMG neurotoxicity, brain damage. They both sound like frightening processes if you don't know what they actually entail.
So you're telling me you don't know what they actually entail. Because if you did know what they entail you wouldn't be taking them. We're talking about how a glass of water becomes poisonous to you. You end up in a puddle of your own waste paralyzed and unable to get up. If you knew, you wouldn't write it off.
Demagogy is not gonna take you anywhere. Or maybe you were fooled by others yourself into misconstruing what they exactly entail.
No way. I know someone who died from it. Stop making excuses.
A heartbreak is a lot more "neurotoxic" than a pill of MDMA, for example. Events in life, change the brain. All events.
And we return to the heartbreak issue. She's moved on. You can too. You can recover, but you need to accept that she doesn't want to be together again. Feel and accept the pain that comes with it stop pushing it behind and sublimating it. Feel it.
BS. There is no proof of that. People who have taken unimaginable doses of MDMA throughout life have problems in the long term. But there are a lot of casual consumers I know personally who don't lead unhappier lives than they have ever lived. I sure don't.
See and that's the myth. You've screwed up your brain. The one possible thing that guides your thinking. It's the most important organ in your Body.
Which I'm too arrogant to acknowledge is something you are much more intimate with than I am, I'm sure.
Yes, and that needs to stop in the name of your life.
The studies made 20 years ago say different things than the ones done today. There is a lot of politics involved too.
That would make sense if this was a political issue. It is not. It's a matter of Neurology. It's a science issue.
Than you are being blatantly disrespectful of me when I openly admit that without my first experience of MDMA I wouldn't have explored buddhism.
You explored Buddhism because you wanted to explore it. Not because of drugs. That's rationalization.
Even bad experiences reveal great lessons.
And that's why I said unless you sat back and realized "Wow I don't need drugs to realize mindfulness" or "This is not helping me feel happy, I want to have no more suffering." then you probably didn't come for Buddhist Philosophy. The Buddha taught the alleviation of suffering and how to reach enlightenment. It's disrespectful to treat Buddhism as a high without the drugs.
You're blind. You are not even talking with me on the same level of understanding. A stone is also a mass of atoms, and I'm not a stone.
You call me blind but do not realize that the basis of consciousness, of all life is in that stone. In Carbon. It's everywhere. All matter and energy is present in all things. It's what keeps us alive and going. The person who is blind chooses not to see what is there. Well science says it's everywhere. So who's blind?
We are different because if we weren't this would be a monologue and not a dialogue.
You are right in a way, because you're talking about the presence of other sentient beings, but you are 100% wrong when you think you are separate from others. We are all interdependent. You wouldn't be who you are if I weren't who I am. and everyone weren't who they are ad infinitum. This is about fundamental reality. We're all so interdependent that we are "reborn" every moment we change our minds.
Are you sure you are confident in your knowledge of quantum physics to make that claim? I have quite a lot of physicist friends. If anyone had any certainties you'd heard about it already, don't worry. Quantum has only proved useful (notice I didn't use the word right) at a very small scale, for the most part.
And that small scale applies to everything. Right down to the tiniest fundamentals of matter. We're all connected.
No, the world fanatic implies you don't care if you are right or wrong because you already accepted something as right.
I told you before, belief is cheap. You get no where by believing in anything. But testing is everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, then wow you've found something. And I think that I've come on to something, and so I trust my instinct, and live openly certain with no belief.
Oh, yeah, what am I asserting then exactly?
That MDMA use doesn't hurt yourself or others.
I hope one day I have as much insight as you clearly do.
One could only hope you don't.
Ya know, for all the insight you have, you are showing a lot of contempt and mockery of my posts.
I've mocked when it is silly. I have given you tons of advice, very helpful advice on the nature of relationships and also in the nature of reality, but choosing to suffer is easier.
I didn't need Anatta or Buddhism to realize the whole of me is always changing.
That's the point. You don't need Buddhism at all, but you are here. You want Buddhism or maybe you don't want Buddhism. Maybe you want to try and contest Buddhism. Struggle against it. Something has to feel better 'eh?
Nothing. What little faith I have is geared towards conscious lies like I'm gonna be content someday with my life, and my family will always love me, and stuff like that.
Those aren't lies. They're the truth, but only if you really want it to be real, if you actualize that reality.
You already lost the battle then. Thinking you know anything is not very conductive of improvement.
I don't think I know everything, the testing is never over until I take the old dirt nap. I think I know nothing, until I test and challenge what I think I know. That's the difference, I'm willing to take up the challenge of seeing things for what they really are, and put everything I know to the test. Are you willing to do that?
The thing that helped me finally understand anatta and prevent it from becoming one big clusterf*ck of a headtrip was the practice of the brahmaviharas ("divine abodes"): metta (lovingkindness), karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy), and upekka (equanimity). Particularly Sharon Salzberg's book on these practices (Lovingkindness: The Revolutionary Art of Happiness) has been very helpful to me in learning what we're actually expected to do with the teaching of anatta.
I think people make a bigger deal out of this teaching than is needed. You can see a brief interview with Salzberg (and her friend Sylvia Boorstein) here in which she addresses this teaching. I have seen a lot of people get hung up on this teaching and become neurotic, doubting their own existence and the validity of things like friendship, happiness, love, kindness, etc. It's very easy to fall into complete nihilism. If you find the teaching disturbing, don't sweat it. It doesn't have to be a part of your practice until it absolutely is necessary. When is it absolutely necessary? It will reveal itself to you in moments where you realize a lot of the suffering you're carrying around with you is the result of holding onto ideas about yourself that are just "made up" and do not reflect reality as it is happening.
I've given you too much credit apparently. The fact that you brought up what you supposedly knew about me is enough to make me and accuse me of harming my family for taking MDMA a couple of times in my life is reason enough to see that you are concerned about making "ad hominem" arguments rather than discussing ideas.
And this stupid notion I'm rejecting your god given help (which btw, is dully noted when it's real) or that of buddhism fails to understand that I never claimed to be a buddhism, and came here only to learn about it. Not to mention this "you guys" against "me" mentality is not actual fact. I'm as much a member as any other person on this board.
I contest and "struggle" against buddhism, because it is healthy.
Which apparently you agree with here :
"I told you before, belief is cheap. You get no where by believing in anything. But testing is everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, then wow you've found something. And I think that I've come on to something, and so I trust my instinct, and live openly certain with no belief. "
I'm doing no more than testing.
You really should look into that arrogance Fruit Punch Wizard, if you think you know any more than I do.
I've given you too much credit apparently. The fact that you brought up what you supposedly knew about me is enough to make me and accuse me of harming my family for taking MDMA a couple of times in my life is reason enough to see that you are concerned about making "ad hominem" arguments rather than discussing ideas.
That's untrue. You just aren't aware that your drug use harms anyone else. Think about it. I was telling you directly that it kills people, and you acknowledge that it is dangerous, you also know it hurts people, and in spite of all that you still think it's okay to do it. You think what you are doing is right, and for me to tell you that that isn't true is seen as attacking you as a person. Wake up call, I'm telling you because I care about you not because I think you're a bad person. I've been down that road, and I know it leads only to pain misery and strife. I told you that I've done it before, and that it not only killed someone, but it leads to dulling of the mind and eventually permanent brain damage.
And this stupid notion I'm rejecting your god given help (which btw, is dully noted when it's real) or that of buddhism fails to understand that I never claimed to be a buddhism, and came here only to learn about it.
I don't think my giving you help is something that can help you unless you take and test it. If you just look at it as words it gets no where. Think about it.
Not to mention this "you guys" against "me" mentality is not actual fact. I'm as much a member as any other person on this board.
I didn't say it was.
I contest and "struggle" against buddhism, because it is healthy.
It's true that it is healthy, but to struggle against nature is unproductive. I don't mean Buddhism when I say that either. I'm talking about the nature of your feelings. The emotions you felt about the breakup. You still haven't quite taken the time to explore them yet have you?
Which apparently you agree with here :
"I told you before, belief is cheap. You get no where by believing in anything. But testing is everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, then wow you've found something. And I think that I've come on to something, and so I trust my instinct, and live openly certain with no belief. "
That's true, we agree when I say try and test everything, but trying is the key. If you haven't tried something you can't test anything either. You can't test anything by asking others. You can't even test something by asking the masters, you have to experience it yourself.
I'm doing no more than testing.
So be brave, and test it with your own experience (^‿^)
You really should look into that arrogance Fruit Punch Wizard, if you think you know any more than I do.
I have asked about it before in the Advanced Buddhism thread. Maybe you have some tips. I ask that you contribute too. I would appreciate it if you told me everything to help me quell my arrogance. I acknowledge it, and neither deny, nor hide it.
Take some LSD, take some MDMA. Its an interesting life experience. There is nothing wrong with trying substances, just don't abuse them.
If you try to turn it into a moral issue, then you can do that with tons of things in life. You know the electricity that you are using to log onto this forum is fueled by the burning of petroleum fuels which produce toxic gases, so you're being here is hurtful to others.
People spend money on all sorts of selfish things, when they could be using their resources to help those in poverty. If you are so concerned about morals and ethics, than you seriously would have live in a monastery in order to avoid the selfishness that exists in our every day society.
Drug use, by itself, isn't inherently moral or immoral. It is your attitude towards it that decides that. And sure drugs can cause physical damage to your body, but so does standing in the sunlight. That doesn't mean you always carry an umbrella around.
You know looking at a computer screen is bad for your eyes, right?
To me the idea that drugs are immoral is rediculous. If you let yourself do immoral things as a result then yea, but if you wanna spend an afternoon high just enjoying yourself then who is anyone to say that you can't.
imho the most important is being mindful of the (potential) harm done and the intention of taking a drug. For example I could see some psychedelic drugs (LSD, shrooms, DMT(ayahuasca) etc) used for a positive change in a person. Many people have become much more spiritually aware after trips with psychedelics and then quit using them + changed for better in other aspects of their lives.
But no, this does not mean I am suggesting everyone to use psychedelics or that there are no risks. In fact many people can become even more deluded from psychedelic use.
Sure, everything involves risk. Driving your car on the highway is a significant risk, but people do it just to get a cup of coffee.
To say psychedelics drugs will absolutely lead you to enlightenment would be incorrect. To say psychedelic drugs absolutely destroy mindfulness and absolutely provide no psychological benefit would be incorrect.
Nothing in life is as simple as black & white. Drugs are no different.
Sure, everything involves risk. Driving your car on the highway is a significant risk, but people do it just to get a cup of coffee.
To say psychedelics drugs will absolutely lead you to enlightenment would be incorrect. To say psychedelic drugs absolutely destroy mindfulness and absolutely provide no psychological benefit would be incorrect.
Nothing in life is as simple as black & white. Drugs are no different.
Take some LSD, take some MDMA. Its an interesting life experience. There is nothing wrong with trying substances, just don't abuse them.
This was little comfort to the kid who died from water intoxication or the kid who jumped off a building because he thought he was superman.
If you try to turn it into a moral issue, then you can do that with tons of things in life.
And I can, and do. I don't pretend for a moment that I am innocent of having done this, I just know it's stupid from experience, and no, it is not something you should do, and no do not take it for "an interesting life experience".
You know the electricity that you are using to log onto this forum is fueled by the burning of petroleum fuels which produce toxic gases, so you're being here is hurtful to others.
Right, and I'm fully aware that this is a bad thing for others, and I use it anyway, but I will not pretend like it is the right thing to do. It is wrong. I do it for selfish reasons.
People spend money on all sorts of selfish things, when they could be using their resources to help those in poverty.
And I do what I can. I have been helping with amnesty international and the indigenous women educational foundations, and many other charitable foundations. If you want to help me start one that's another topic for another time
If you are so concerned about morals and ethics, than you seriously would have live in a monastery in order to avoid the selfishness that exists in our every day society.
I am not able to, but not out of lack of wanting to, but because I physically cannot. I'm not wealthy, so I have to earn money, and I need to be able to drive so that I can join a Monastery, and when I leave home and make that step, I must possess the compassion to make sure that I leave with no obligations behind and no lingering regrets. No to say it won't happen. It will. Meet'cha there Brother/sister!
Drug use, by itself, isn't inherently moral or immoral.
But it is stupid and unwholesome. What kind of useful productive activity do you think it will bring you to?
It is your attitude towards it that decides that.
Attitude is brought about by experience. All things are interdependent, and to say that these drugs have not harmed our society and killed people betrays horrible ignorance of what drugs can do to self, and others holistically.
And sure drugs can cause physical damage to your body
And your mind. It's not just about your body. You lose your ability to think clearly. Sometimes you can never get that back.
but so does standing in the sunlight.That doesn't mean you always carry an umbrella around.
I'm the wrong person to talk to about that. My aunt has skin cancer. A little sunblock would have saved thousands in hospital bills and the horrific consequences of drug therapy.
You know looking at a computer screen is bad for your eyes, right?
Absolutely, and I have glasses made for the type of screen I have. It won't protect me forever, but I know what the consequences will be. Having astigmatism as well means that I will not be able to see forever and it can only get worse and worse until I am finally BLIND. Accepting this reality, I take the steps I can to keep my sight for as long as I can, until aging takes it from me and I bet it might be such a relief.
I'm not the right person you're looking for perhaps. I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I live in a way that I am deeply careful and deliberate about what I do. So how about you?
If you let yourself do immoral things as a result then yea, but if you wanna spend an afternoon high just enjoying yourself then who is anyone to say that you can't.
See as a Buddhist I will remind you about something called facts that you'll likely call bullocks because you are too biased, but the fact is that drugs hurt people. They hurt the person taking them, and as a result of their self-destructive behavior they hurt others who care about them. Taking drugs is ultimately selfish, it seeks one's own pleasure and happiness for a temporary moment and as a result leaves permanent damage. No one likes these facts, but they are the truth.
Sure, everything involves risk. Driving your car on the highway is a significant risk, but people do it just to get a cup of coffee.
lol man you keep throwing darts at straw, because guess what bro? I don't drive either. I made a conscious decision to use public transportation, and to walk for many reasons.
1. It is a way to reduce my carbon footprint.
2. It is a way to reduce the commuters on the road by one.
3. I also walk more than the average person, so I am keeping my health up.
4. It is less for me to have to worry about.
a.)I won't kill creatures that cross the road
b.) I won't kill human beings in any way
c.) No threat of tickets
d.) Hardly any accidents
e.) More time to commit to mindfulness and meditation because I don't have to concentrate on the road.
To say psychedelics drugs will absolutely lead you to enlightenment would be incorrect.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
To say psychedelic drugs absolutely destroy mindfulness and absolutely provide no psychological benefit would be incorrect.
According to the fifth precept of the Pancasila, Buddhists should refrain from any quantity of intoxicants which would prevent mindfulness or cause heedlessness. This is SPECIFICALLY said that it prevents mindfulness and causes heedlessness. However follow through with me this little tale:
There was a monk who came across a woman who told him that he must either
a) kill her goat
b) sleep with her
c) drink a mug of beer (all of which are against the vows taken by Buddhist monks).
He thought to himself, well, surely if I kill the goat then I will be causing great suffering since a living being will die. If I sleep with the woman then I will have broken another great vow of a monk and will surely be lost to the ways of the world. Lastly, if I drink the beer then perhaps no great harm will come and I will only be intoxicated for a while, and most importantly I will only be hurting myself (which is important to him because monks try to bring all sentient beings to enlightenment as part of their goal).
So the monk drank the mug of beer and then he became very drunk. In his drunkenness he proceeded to kill the goat and sleep with the woman, breaking all three vows doing much harm in the world.
The lesson of this story is that alcohol causes one to break all of one's vows, in a sense we could say it is the cause of all other harmful deeds. Intoxication is self induced DELUSION making.
Nothing in life is as simple as black & white. Drugs are no different.
Oh you're quite right. Things aren't simple in black and white, but in what way could taking drugs be wholesome? They do not generate merit, and they do NOT lead to insight. Just like a moth would be distracted by the beauty of the flame, drugs only lead to self-destruction.
Oh, by the way I applaud all the encouragement you all are giving me to go for a women's ordination in Theravada tradition, and when that happens I will be delighted to tell you all I hope you will be readily supportive, because it is rare and very difficult for a woman to do! To hear that you all believe me qualified warms my heart. That is of course if it is encouragement rather than underhanded mocking. I hope to prove worthy of that title.
TFPW you most certainly are deliberate, but if you were deeply careful about what you do, you would see that the type of self righteous lecturing that characterizes many of your posts is not compassionate and not really productive. It causes people to suffer. I am only judging from the reaction that you have gotten from others and from my own reaction to reading you. I felt like getting drunk after reading your exchange with epicurus. No one wants to be beaten over the head with their own words. There are people on the other end of these posts. I never take drugs or drink and haven't for decades. I have a great deal of experience in dealing with young men who like drugs. Anytime I have taken a hard line with them on their substance use I have distanced myself from them and communication is disrupted. To quote Willem Dafoe " this can of worms only opens from the inside". If you are talking to children about drugs you can be as firm as possible and they will probably agree with you. If you are talking to young adults who have experience with drugs and alcohol, another approach is better. Its OK, I am expecting to get shredded for this. I'll just have a good cry.:(
I agree robot, TFPW's approach is egotistical, much more than compassionate or kind.
It's all about "Hey, look at me, I'm so good - I do this and that and to add to that, I know everything and I'm always right."
Suggest you to deeply contemplate on your motivations and intentions. Maybe read some of your posts and try to see, why exactly you have written what you have.
We can often be deluded enough to lie to others and ourselves, that we're just trying to help, but in reality we're trying to make ourselves feel better through our ego, which causes suffering to others and ourselves.
I could be wrong, tho.
Things aren't simple in black and white, but in what way could taking drugs be wholesome? They do not generate merit, and they do NOT lead to insight.
In your experience.
My first trip on mushrooms made me realize how close minded and selfish I was. I've become a far better person after this realization, and I wholly attribute the mushrooms for this change in me.
Say what you will, but that is my experience. If that's not true for you, cool beans.
Holding to your opinions as absolute truth is what makes you sound so self-righteous.
See as a Buddhist I will remind you about something called facts that you'll likely call bullocks because you are too biased, but the fact is that drugs hurt people. They hurt the person taking them, and as a result of their self-destructive behavior they hurt others who care about them. Taking drugs is ultimately selfish, it seeks one's own pleasure and happiness for a temporary moment and as a result leaves permanent damage. No one likes these facts, but they are the truth.
"The Fact Is" - anybody can say that a fact is.
The people I know who have taken E/MDMA certainly do not hurt people, but are almost always more empathetic and kinder, while on it, and after.
Maybe abusing drugs hurts people, I'll give you that.
How can you know that is seeks ones own pleasure and happiness? One could take drugs to open their mind to benefit others, just like you would meditate to benefit others.
I'm basically just repeating what other people in this have said, but I'd like to say I think it's unwise to be saying things like "the fact is" and "no one likes these facts, but they are the truth."
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
-Buddha
I see where your coming from though, I know a lot of people who have been damaged, and have damaged others, by alcohol. I even have my share of damage from pot.
Drugs can be very dangerous I'll agree with that.
TFPW you most certainly are deliberate, but if you were deeply careful about what you do, you would see that the type of self righteous lecturing that characterizes many of your posts is not compassionate and not really productive.
I'm telling you if you aren't careful you're going to hurt yourself and others. You might even kill yourself. To be self-destructive doesn't only hurt you. A person who is truly compassionate would understand that these actions are harmful and hurtful because it affects everyone around you. You are killing yourself and making everyone who cares about you watch.
Saying that I can't tell you this is wrong, comes from a fear that I won't love you in spite of this. That's not true. It's like how a sister loves their wayward brother, but any sibling who really and truly loves their brother will not let them continually hurt themselves. If people are totally indulged, as a result they become without fear of any consequence for the their actions or inactions, so"anything goes" has become an expectation, a right, despite its destructive and paradoxical nature.
I understand your fear of not being loved, but believe me if I attempted to cause love to occur using total indulgence, it would only result in the destruction of the recipient, in this case, you. That is not virtuous, with the knowledge that it causes you direct harm. It can lead to the devastation of everyone who cares about you. This isn't a lack of compassion. You think being benevolent and compassionate means that you become an enabler who lets a person engage in self destructive behavior?
How compassionate is that? If you could get past the my telling you what you are doing is harmful you would understand this; the Wizard is not mean, the Wizard cares. I don't want to see you guys die of water toxicity, I don't want to see your brains fried, your body destroyed, your life screwed up over by something that doesn't make you happy. Drugs just ultimately don't make you happy in the long run. They hurt you and for what? You haven't told me how it is wholesome yet.
It causes people to suffer. I am only judging from the reaction that you have gotten from others and from my own reaction to reading you.
That suffering reaction is a reaction to your own fear and thoughts from reading such a post without understanding the context.
I felt like getting drunk after reading your exchange with epicurus.
And how does that solve anything? I suggest going to rehab and taking control of your addiction if something like this makes you want to drink. You might need help to get past the addiction and I know plenty of people who have. You can't let the drug own you.
No one wants to be beaten over the head with their own words.
So if no one wants to be beaten in the head with their own words, don't conceptualize words into a hammer. You can take control and grow. If you always blame others for your predicaments, you won't ever see what the problem ultimately is. I am called self righteous and arrogant only because you disagree with me, but you haven't said where.
Do you think I think anyone a bad person because they don't take control of their drug habits? No way! But I think to try and rationalize it away is to enabling it. I won't let you do that. You know it's harmful, you just do it anyway. So, why then?
There are people on the other end of these posts.
I am not a person then? Did you conveniently ignore the part when I said I actually KNEW someone who died from using the said drug MDMA for drinking water? Forgotten 'eh?
I never take drugs or drink and haven't for decades. I have a great deal of experience in dealing with young men who like drugs.
Then you would know that it's not possible for you to get them to see that it's harmful until they see not how it affects themselves, but how it affects others.
Anytime I have taken a hard line with them on their substance use I have distanced myself from them and communication is disrupted.
Anytime you take any stance that is in opposition to what they think will get them to think that it's a personal attack instead of what it is. I'm letting them know. They're not their addictions, they're not their cravings.
To quote Willem Dafoe " this can of worms only opens from the inside". If you are talking to children about drugs you can be as firm as possible and they will probably agree with you.
That's because they've got less of an ego to assuage.
If you are talking to young adults who have experience with drugs and alcohol, another approach is better. Its OK, I am expecting to get shredded for this. I'll just have a good cry.:(
I'm not going to shred you. I'm not a monster yah know. There's no way to talk with young adults rationally without pulling the reality in front of them and making them see the ugliest of truths because they think they're invincible when they're at this age. They think that this newfound power that they have is somehow granting them a higher position on the moral landscape, but I'm here to remind them that they're mortal, fallible, and subject to the same things adults are. This means you gotta take the BS out. You need to tell them firmly that this is unwholesome and harmful BECAUSE they're not children and choosing to do this type of self sabotaging behavior is going to get them killed. If you want to treat them like overindulgent children, you can, but that'll get them killed.
My first trip on mushrooms made me realize how close minded and selfish I was. I've become a far better person after this realization, and I wholly attribute the mushrooms for this change in me.
Say what you will, but that is my experience. If that's not true for you, cool beans.
Holding to your opinions as absolute truth is what makes you sound so self-righteous.
I seen and have heard this from other people as well who have been
' opened up ' so to speak from drug induced states. In my work I have also worked with people who are acutely mentally ill from drug induced psychosis from taking mushrooms and other psychoactive substances ... and agree that it is possible - this is not the same as the results from practice though.
I agree robot, TFPW's approach is egotistical, much more than compassionate or kind.
Once again I will say this, if a person is totally indulged then they are as a result without fear of any consequence for the their actions or inactions. Complete indulgence is an overcompensation, attempting to cause love to occur due to the showering of praise on a person who is self-destructive is not loving, kind, or compassionate. Total indulgence results in the destruction of a person.
It's all about "Hey, look at me, I'm so good - I do this and that and to add to that, I know everything and I'm always right."
Actually this was an attempt to find flaws with a person who is disagreeing with you only to find this person was the complete opposite of what you expected. I am neither good, nor perfect, but I find it ironic that all the things people tried to pin me down with were completely ineffective, because I am not what they expected me to be. I even said that I have tried the drugs before, and that I discovered myself through experience that they were harmful. I even said a kid I was with at said incident DIED from water toxicity.
I Suggest you to deeply contemplate on your motivations and intentions.
Oh I have and I do, and I invite you to tell me how arrogant I am in this thread.
You can give me your wise advice on how to help me curb the habit. I neither hide nor deny this fact. I am absolutely arrogant, but because I have self esteem.
Maybe read some of your posts and try to see, why exactly you have written what you have.
Oh I read them, and I try to take care to edit them carefully before I post them down, but once posted up I will not take them down, because that would be hiding myself, hiding my faults, and being dishonest. I don't do that you see...
We can often be deluded enough to lie to others and ourselves, that we're just trying to help, but in reality we're trying to make ourselves feel better through our ego, which causes suffering to others and ourselves.
This is true, but you're forgetting a big point. This is deconstruction of the self. You can't lie to me, and I can't lie to you. I say drug use is physically harmful and leads to death. This is true, you say I am arrogant, and this is also true. Ultimately we're both right about something, but we're also both wrong about something as well.
I could be wrong, tho.
I give the benefit of the doubt You are mostly right 100% on the dot about my arrogance. I have to work on that!
My first trip on mushrooms made me realize how close minded and selfish I was.
Maybe you've got a little way to go before you understand that using the mushrooms hurts others too.
I've become a far better person after this realization, and I wholly attribute the mushrooms for this change in me.
That's called a Post hoc ergo propter hoc. I had the 'Shrooms therefore these naturally occurring states happened. You do know that the lifting of inhibitions was only how you conceptualized the drug to work. It's like how the people who got drunk on orange juice reacted when they're told it's been spiked.
Say what you will, but that is my experience. If that's not true for you, cool beans.
Cool beans. :rolleyes:
Holding to your opinions as absolute truth is what makes you sound so self-righteous.
That's because they're not opinions. They're conjecture held together by years of scientific research also given my own personal experience on the matter.
No, fact is an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. Fact is, drugs harm.
The people I know who have taken E/MDMA certainly do not hurt people, but are almost always more empathetic and kinder, while on it, and after.
You missed a point. They're killing themselves. They're hurting the people who care about them.
Maybe abusing drugs hurts people, I'll give you that.
Abusing drugs means using them unwisely. :rolleyes:
How can you know that is seeks ones own pleasure and happiness?
No, they could not. A person seeks pleasure when taking drugs. It's just that. Temporary euphoric pleasure.
One could take drugs to open their mind to benefit others, just like you would meditate to benefit others.
No this compares meditation, which is mental development and the unfolding of wisdom to find an alleviation for universal suffering, to mere pleasure seeking. That's not the case. Drugs are done for selfish unwholesome and harmful reasons. What can you hope to gain from dosing?
I'm basically just repeating what other people in this have said, but I'd like to say I think it's unwise to be saying things like "the fact is" and "no one likes these facts, but they are the truth."
Well the fact is.....
That you can't fight facts, I can't fight facts and no one can ultimately fight facts. They're facts and they'll always be true regardless of what we think of them. You don't have to like them, you don't have to regard them, but fact is fact.
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
-Buddha
Drugs are harmful and unwholesome. Your own reason and common sense knows this.
I see where your coming from though, I know a lot of people who have been damaged, and have damaged others, by alcohol. I even have my share of damage from pot.
Drugs can be very dangerous I'll agree with that.
That's because it is physically poison. :rolleyes:
I seen and have heard this from other people as well who have been ' opened up ' so to speak from drug induced states.
This testing is inconclusive, and I'd be wary of those studies, because I'm sure you also remember the study where subjects were given orange juice and were told it was spiked, and then as a result they got drunk. No alcohol was in their drink. In the other room a group of people were told that they were drinking orange juice with a bittering agent, and surprise surprise, they passed out in a stupor and had hangovers and were throwing up.
In my work I have also worked with people who are acutely mentally ill from drug induced psychosis from taking mushrooms and other psychoactive substances ... and agree that it is possible - this is not the same as the results from practice though.
That's because it was developed for that purpose when the drug was made. It was used to make interrogation subjects more suggestible. In the end it was a torture device. The people who they used it on went insane and never recovered. That's why it's illegal.
There've been studies on the harmfulness of these drugs for as long as they've been created. You still don't believe they're harmful?
My belief is that drugs are harmful and that, as I have already stated, drugs like ecstasy and co. as well as magic mushrooms, marijuana etc all contain active ingredients which affect the physiology of the brain to induce altered perceptions which can result in experiences such as those described here, as well as triggering psychotic episodes.
That's because they're not opinions. They're conjecture held together by years of scientific research also given my own personal experience on the matter.
That's funny. I spent two months reading on MDMA, before experimenting with it, and it was precisely BECAUSE of the scientific research on it I read about.
I knew the risks, I was mindful of them, I took the plunge. And I'm now exploring buddhism because of it. I don't know what YOUR experience with drugs was, but I only a couple of experiences with MDMA since I first took it. I'm not making my life around it.
You haven't taken the time to explain who I hurt when I took the drug aside from myself (which I don't believe I did, quite the contrary).
You haven't taken the time to admit how sometimes it can be a good lesson for some people DESPITE me admitting I'm on this forum because of it.
You keep shouting "facts" like people dying of water poisoning WHILE IGNORING the FACT that some people such as I, do take the time to read about these things before they do it, and were careful not to drink any alcohol while taking it, not overdoing it, and making sure they carried water with them neither underindulging not overindulging.
You keep shouting facts like people jumping out of windows because of LSD, ignoring the people and the cultural revolution and the psychiatric patients who benefitted form it.
You are not arrogant. You are afraid. Because you don't trust these young adults you talk about
There's no way to talk with young adults rationally without pulling the reality in front of them and making them see the ugliest of truths because they think they're invincible when they're at this age.
Possibly because you are projecting your own lack of mindfulness when you were my age/when you experimented with these drugs.
This culture of fear and demonization of drugs is a sign of ignorance. The more information people have the better decisions they can make. And it's their own decision! Misinformation and propaganda is what makes people like the ones suffering from Cluster Headaches, not have a means to cure their affliction because the US government (as an example) wouldn't let LSD be researched until recently.
I didn't want to post this because others have already said enough. But I'd like to bring some of these facts to your attention nonetheless.
Of course, it's ignorant to say that anything is good or evil indefinitely. I've had lots of experiences with lsd, mushrooms, marijuana, and alcohol, even crediting them with helping draw me to Buddhist thought. I still believe in the value of those shifted perceptions that help with the deconstruction of my blind ignorance. However, I believe, in the end, these drugged states are just another drama within a drama. You can't travel the path when you're escaping it. I'm not going to say you're right or wrong in taking part in these things because that means nothing. I've just come to believe that it's foolish, and it's usually an escape. Buddhism is about seeing through delusion, and when you're coming off a drugged state, there's an even deeper contradiction waiting for you.
I'm pretty sure the Buddha wouldn't recommend those 6 years of severe asceticism to anyone as a means to achieve enlightenment. It probably did his body and mind more harm than good. Nevertheless there is good and bad to be taken from any event. I'm not trying to say anything more than that.
TFPW, you are correct about your facts. But like a politician, you are using one-sided facts to support a biased argument. You've already explained that you had a terrible experience with drugs with the death of a friend. This is making you biased.
Numerous clinical studies have been done on the benefits of MDMA. Some report harmful results. So yes, its a fact that it is harmful. Some report beneficial effects. So yes, it is a fact that it is healthy. Nothing is black & white, remember?
The core of the MDMA experience has been described by one of the pioneering psychiatrists who worked with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy in terminal cancer patients as "reducing the fear response to a perceived emotional threat." When used therapeutically, MDMA is administered as an adjunct to psychotherapy on an intermittent basis within a larger therapeutic relationship, usually fewer than four times and frequently only once or twice. Numerous case histories and anecdotal reports testify to MDMA's ability to assist people struggling to come to terms with difficult life events (Stevens 1999/2000; Otalora 1984). These reports suggest that MDMA-assisted psychotherapy should initially be explored not in patients whose psychiatric symptoms originated with biological imbalances with possible genetic components, though MDMA might still be helpful in some ways with such patients, but rather in patients who need some assistance in processing difficult emotions that have a deep component of fear and/or anxiety. Two of the main categories of patients that fit this description are people suffering from PTSD and people facing terminal illness. People with these two types of clinical conditions have been treated with MDMA with some remarkable results in some patients.
By taking one-sided facts and making a biased argument, you are eliminating a whole range of possibilities. Like people who say marijuana is bad for you. Sure, its not great for everybody, but there are cancer patients who swear by marijuana as the best painkiller available. Who are you to say they can't take marijuana for their pain?
The only point i'm trying to make is that everything in life depends on your INTENTION. If you are taking drugs as a high just to get fucked up and you become addicted to it, then yes that is harmful to yourself and others. If you take it occasionally for personal use, whether it is to help psychologically or physically ease pain, than that is a different story.
I'm not trying to say that most recreational drug use isn't selfish, because it is. OK, you hear that? I'm not disputing that it isn't selfish.
But to say that drugs can NOT have health benefits (mental or physical), as a blanket statement, is ignorant and bias. This is the only point that I am arguing.
To say that using drugs and alcohol will definitely ruin your life or harm others is simply not true. I prefer to try to get young people to understand the type of risk involved. Like many middle aged people I have seen lots of people ruin their lives with substance abuse over a period of many years. I have also known young people who have died from it. However, I also know many people who experimented with drugs while young then went on to lead exceptional lives. My brother used many drugs as a youth and was jailed for stealing cars and other crimes. He later got a law degree and practiced for many years. My sister also used when she was young. After she became sober she got her degree in social work and now helps many people with their addiction. She would say that her own use contributed to her ability to help others. My point is that you can't tell someone that their substance use will destroy their life when their experience may prove otherwise. All you can do is try to use strategic opportunities to show them what is happening or might happen to them. And to set an example for them of how life can be as good or better without getting high. By the way TFPW my comment on your post had nothing to do with me feeling unloved or what ever. I was trying to tell you that your message doesn't pack a punch because of the tone of it, if not the content. I really think that you need to find a way to express yourself on this subject that doesn't seem to set you apart and make people feel that you are self righteous and arrogant. I know you have asked for help on another thread. Keep trying. Also, you probably were not born at the time that my substance abuse ended. When I said that your exchange made me want to get drunk I was trying to emphasize my feelings of frustration from reading your posts.
When you do harm to someone, you are actually doing harm to yourself.
In that sense its non-personal.
Who are you? Are you defined by your history or heritage?
What if you have memory loss, who would you be then?
No, fact is an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. Fact is, drugs harm.
Mhm, and who are you to decide what is a fact and what isn't?
You have your opinion and I have mine, whether truth is objective or subjective, neither of us are all-knowing.
You missed a point. They're killing themselves. They're hurting the people who care about them.
Your looking at it in an all or nothing way. I could say that when you eat junk food, or aren't exercizing, you are killing yourself and hurting others.
It's about weighing the good and bad points against eachother. And I think that if one does it, but not regularly, the good factors outweigh the bad, and ultimately it has more of a chance of benefiting others and self.
Abusing drugs means using them unwisely. :rolleyes:
Yea.
No, they could not. A person seeks pleasure when taking drugs. It's just that. Temporary euphoric pleasure
.
How would you, or could you know, what every person seeks when they take drugs?
That you can't fight facts, I can't fight facts and no one can ultimately fight facts. They're facts and they'll always be true regardless of what we think of them. You don't have to like them, you don't have to regard them, but fact is fact.
And how come you dictate these facts any more than me?
Drugs are harmful and unwholesome. Your own reason and common sense knows this.
How could you, or would you know what my reason and common sense knows?
The core of the MDMA experience has been described by one of the pioneering psychiatrists who worked with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy in terminal cancer patients as "reducing the fear response to a perceived emotional threat." When used therapeutically, MDMA is administered as an adjunct to psychotherapy on an intermittent basis within a larger therapeutic relationship, usually fewer than four times and frequently only once or twice. Numerous case histories and anecdotal reports testify to MDMA's ability to assist people struggling to come to terms with difficult life events (Stevens 1999/2000; Otalora 1984). These reports suggest that MDMA-assisted psychotherapy should initially be explored not in patients whose psychiatric symptoms originated with biological imbalances with possible genetic components, though MDMA might still be helpful in some ways with such patients, but rather in patients who need some assistance in processing difficult emotions that have a deep component of fear and/or anxiety. Two of the main categories of patients that fit this description are people suffering from PTSD and people facing terminal illness. People with these two types of clinical conditions have been treated with MDMA with some remarkable results in some patients.
Live to Learn, would you say that its harmfull, or neutral, (or even possibly benefecial), to people with biological-induced anxiety disorders?
I think it depends on the specific person. Like any psychiatric drug, sometimes it takes some trial and error to find one that benefits that person. MDMA would be no different.
Thats why I agree it is dangerous to dabble in psychedelic substances without the supervision of a doctor. When taking them recreationally, there is potential for them to cause more harm then good.
I've had friends that I've introduced to psychedelic drugs, and I always tell them they should take them in a safe environment and with people they are comfortable with, and not to mix them with other substances. I would never advise someone who is suffering a mental illness to take psychedelics to cure their problems, I would refer them to a doctor. Maybe I would ask them to ask their doctor about it.
In my personal experience, I would say psychedelics have made me more neurotic then I used to be, but I have made several changes in my life based on realizations I have had from these substances, and I am in a much better place because of those changes. In my experience, I haven't been harmed very much. But..maybe i'm just not seeing the harm, who knows.
Comments
How harmfull can this be?
Insight or vipassana type practice is usually recommended. However, concentration is necessary to develop as well. This is a good article and mentions techniques from several traditions. http://www.buddhanet.net/anattamed.htm
Then you will continue to be unhappy and will never have a "sense" of the existence of others. It'll continue to be colored solely from your own perspective, and will be like seeing people through sunglasses. You never see people for how they are, nor do you see anything for how it is.
Actually the point is that because you aren't them, there's no way to "be" through them.
You AREN'T different from me. That's another point.
Memory is a fantasy. We can say my car is real, but a pink unicorn is imagined. We say that they have to be different, and as you sit here in front of your keyboard, your car exists for you only in your memory, a place in your mind, the pink unicorn lives in the same place. They are equal. You might think that yes, this is true but I can go out and drive my car, but I can’t ride a pink unicorn. But it rained yesterday. Was the rain from yesterday real? I could say yes, but I can’t see or touch that rain now, can I? Like the pink unicorn, the past exists only in my mind.
Likewise, the future exists only in my mind because it has not happened. I can find evidence of the past. I can check with the weather people and confirm that it rained yesterday and when I get that confirmation, it would instantly become the past itself. So in effect, I would be using the past, which does not exist, to confirm something else from the past. And if I repeat the process a thousand times,with a thousand different pieces of evidence, together they would still be nothing but impressions of the past supporting other impressions of the past.
We are constantly trying to sort out evidence of the present into impressions stored in our minds and we are certain our evidence is solid and irrefutable, but our mind will mold the facts and shape the clues until it all fits. Clinical psychologists have proven that ordinary people will alter their memories of the past to make them fit their own mistaken perceptions. It is the way all normal brains function under ordinary circumstances. We see this in eyewitness testimonies all the time. They try and use information to color what they have seen and when presented with pictures, they'll think what they saw was who was in the picture, but in reality, no such person was there.
You no longer live in the past, no longer are ignorant, no longer skeptical, no longer have greed, ill will, no longer have a self, no longer see others as separate from yourself, no longer have to convince yourself to stop repeating bad habits, no longer have lustful feelings, no longer feel bored, and no longer are conceited ever.
No drug can awaken you. They just add more delusion.
Actually it just makes you more selfish.
Have you ever taken MDMA? MDMA might make you more selfish. It hasn't made me any more selfish. In fact, that one MDMA experience is responsible for me even being here and exploring buddhism, because I came into contact with a heightened sense of empathy and mindfulness.
"No drug can awaken you", is the closed statement based on I don't know what. You do realize that all the effort we put into meditation or whichever human practice, is essentially just shaping our brain right? I'm not saying drugs awaken you, but it isn't very wise to assume they never will, or would or do to some extent.
I think I am different from you. Please try and explain why I'm not.
I think you have accepted some things as fact and are giving explanations to serve those "facts" (which, I could just as easily call fantasies like you did "memory") instead of opening up to the idea that all of this (buddhism or whatever else) might be wrong or that your interpretation might be wrong.
Actually yes there is something wrong for not believing it. You're hurting yourself, therefore you're hurting others who care about you, and people around you.
Bull. Taking drugs hurts yourself and others. You think you're not affecting others around you? Take a hard look at yourself and then say that again. It's a lie that you really need to take a look at.
Or maybe you had that empathy and mindfulness on your own, but you associate it with the drugs. "How could I have done that on my own? It had to be the drugs!" Those are lies. The drugs just made your sense of heedlessness go up.
Based on experience. It doesn't work bro.
It's not shaping our brain it's shaping our mind. Our brain doesn't change, but the brainwaves might.
No it is not. It's outright stupid to think they will unless by that you mean realizing that you don't need drugs. To think drugs are a portal to awakening in any shape or form is nonsense. I won't pull my punches on this.
You and I are both humans, we both have emotions, perceptions, sensations, consciousness, and form. We have memories, we have ideas, and we both don't want to suffer. We both want to be happy.
Nope, the only thing that you haven't realized is that the only reason you suffer is that you created the shackles of your own making to hold yourself back.
Give me a break. It's one thing to recognize the merits of selflessness, it's quite another to say there is something wrong about me for not just swallowing what is presented to me.
I don't TAKE drugs. I did MDMA a couple of times. And I hurt no one around me. Quite the contrary. I the most honest talk with my best friend in 10 years. And you haven't answered if you taken it or not. I cannot comprehend this kind of mind frame from a so-called buddhist. I'm not addicted to the drug or anything. Alcohol is much more dangerous btw.
I don't associate ANYTHING. Don't put words in my mouth. I KNOW how the drug actually works at a neurological level. Like I said, it set me on the path to mindfulness because of it. It's about quieting the rational mind.
It's not safe. There is a difference. I'm not gonna shun meditation if I don't become englithened after trying it once. And besides that's not the point!! I'm not promoting drugs as a means to achieve enlightenment. I'm I talking to the holy inquisition here?
Don't mock me. I know what it does. It blocks certain parts of the brain temporarily. It doesn't shape permanently. The brain doesn't change into a cabbage no.
What is stupid is your stance. I'm being agnostic about the whole thing. What I'm saying is that they can be a relevant experience for some, and you are no one to say otherwise.
So? Commonalities don't imply we have to be the same. We are similar, not necessarily the same. If nothing else you are in another location than I am right now in time.
And apparently you have substituted whichever ones you had with new ones by being fanatic about the whole thing. I'm inquiring. I don't choose a thing to believe in and then stick to it. It's constantly changing. I owe no buddhist or buddhist current my allegiance or faith. I'm open to being wrong, are you?
Right because you didn't know what you were doing? Give me a break. You know what taking the drugs does to your body, and your mind. It's selfish to poison yourself and not think you're not hurting anyone.
Nonsense. You hurt yourself and others. Haven't you thought what taking drugs does to yourself beyond the high?
Yes, I did, when I said I had experience.
A so-called Buddhist is mindful, concentrates, and puts effort to understand reality.
Okay then, why are you taking it?
And alcohol is also bad for you, and also something we're not supposed to use for the sake of staying aware of our actions and thoughts.
So then you know what it does. It's damaging you, and by doing that you're damaging yourself and others. People do care about you y'know. They don't want you to mess up your brain any more than I do.
Actually you haven't taken the steps and gone through the motions, you've been making excuses NOT to be mindful in all the posts I've seen. You're consciously avoiding mindfulness.
On the contrary, it's not the rationality it's awakening the insight and unconditioning the mind.
So you recognize it is dangerous. How is it dangerous? :rolleyes:
Good.
Yes it is.
It causes a reduction in the concentration of serotonin transporters to the point of neurotoxicity. The potential brain damage is mostly irreversible. Welcome to reality. Can I take your order?
Your neurons stop firing and they don't let your serotonin transporters reach your brain. They make you unable to experience happiness in the longterm.
I'm not fencing here bro. There's no stance. Only reality.
There's nothing unknowable about the damage of MDMA. Nor how it affects your brain, it's all knowable and the damage observable.
Actually I am saying yes, I am someone to say otherwise. And the right person to say otherwise. Stop taking ze drugs.
We are the same. As you said, we're a mass of atoms and particles in a sea of energy. All the same to even a fundamental level.
how are we different? Don't talk about impressions, because impressions tell us nothing.
According to quantum physics we are entangled and neither separated by space, nor time.
The word fanatic implies implicitly that you think I am wrong. Prove it?
To inquire means to ask. You have asked nothing. You are asserting. Your assertions are fallacious.
I don't believe in anything. Belief is cheap. I have insight, I use it.
And that's a fact of Anatta. You are constantly changing. So your identity is never solid! Welcome to Buddhism 101. You have learned.
And what faith are you?
I'm open to anything, especially being wrong. There's a 100% chance I'm wrong about something. What it is I do not yet know. But about this? No way.
I think people make a bigger deal out of this teaching than is needed. You can see a brief interview with Salzberg (and her friend Sylvia Boorstein) here in which she addresses this teaching. I have seen a lot of people get hung up on this teaching and become neurotic, doubting their own existence and the validity of things like friendship, happiness, love, kindness, etc. It's very easy to fall into complete nihilism. If you find the teaching disturbing, don't sweat it. It doesn't have to be a part of your practice until it absolutely is necessary. When is it absolutely necessary? It will reveal itself to you in moments where you realize a lot of the suffering you're carrying around with you is the result of holding onto ideas about yourself that are just "made up" and do not reflect reality as it is happening.
LOL, that's not what I meant by swallowing what is presented to me. What YOU are doing is swallowing what is presented to you. You are just reiterating dharma as facts and hitting me over the head for not acknowledging their oh-so-obvious merit. What I meant was that when it comes to anatta, I recognize it's benefits, but I still don't understand what it would mean to tame the self completely (nirvana).
You are saying I'm hurting others, but not saying how exactly I'm doing that.
Even if that means questioning buddhism itself?
I'm taking I took. I don't beat people up, I slapped a kid in 5th grade.
That maybe for some people, it takes doing something stupid while drunk to realize the importance of awareness.
The side effects of MDMA are absurdly misconstrued. It's has been used in post-traumatic stress disorder with amazing results. Meditation, and letting go is a form of brain damage too in the sense that it "reinforces or lessens the strength of our synapses". And I say that figuratively.
What do you know about me? Oh, wait, I forget we are the same. So you are aware of everything I do. Your broad generalization of how you perceive my posts, is probably false, and it fails to understand why I post in the first place. I'm not trying to practice mindfulness when posting. I'm gathering analytical information.
Did you even read my post? Mindfulness is NOT about rationality. It's about not grasping thought after all. And while MDMA I grasped thought a lot less. That's what I meant.
I'm talking about LSD when I say it's dangerous. Not MDMA. MDMA still is dangerous like most anything has the ability to be. But LSD can be quite traumatic and irreversible in a much deeper level. I know of no one that has taken MDMA once and gone insane.
Are you trying to irritate me to make me look dumb? Are you saying I'm saying drugs are the path to enlightenment? NO I'm not. That was not my point.
OMG neurotoxicity, brain damage. They both sound like frightening processes if you don't know what they actually entail. Demagogy is not gonna take you anywhere. Or maybe you were fooled by others yourself into misconstruing what they exactly entail. A heartbreak is a lot more "neurotoxic" than a pill of MDMA, for example. Events in life, change the brain. All events.
BS. There is no proof of that. People who have taken unimaginable doses of MDMA throughout life have problems in the long term. But there are a lot of casual consumers I know personally who don't lead unhappier lives than they have ever lived. I sure don't.
Which I'm too arrogant to acknowledge is something you are much more intimate with than I am, I'm sure.
The studies made 20 years ago say different things than the ones done today. There is a lot of politics involved too.
Than you are being blatantly disrespectful of me when I openly admit that without my first experience of MDMA I wouldn't have explored buddhism.
Even bad experiences reveal great lessons.
You're blind. You are not even talking with me on the same level of understanding. A stone is also a mass of atoms, and I'm not a stone.
We are different because if we weren't this would be a monologue and not a dialogue.
Are you sure you are confident in your knowledge of quantum physics to make that claim?
No, the world fanatic implies you don't care if you are right or wrong because you already accepted something as right.
Oh, yeah, what am I asserting then exactly?
I hope one day I have as much insight as you clearly do.
Ya know, for all the insight you have, you are showing a lot of contempt and mockery of my posts.
I didn't need Anatta or Buddhism to realize the whole of me is always changing.
Nothing. What little faith I have is geared towards conscious lies like I'm gonna be content someday with my life, and my family will always love me, and stuff like that.
You already lost the battle then. Thinking you know anything is not very conductive of improvement.
I'm sure that gave the snowflake much comfort as he broke his neck when falling on the floor.
You mean accepting that jagged little pill we call truth, facts, perspective, coffee?? What are you talking about?
No I'm hitting you over the head with facts about drugs being bad for you. I didn't even mention the Dharma in relation to that. I did however say poison's bad for the brain, and exactly how it is bad for the brain.
That all depends on you. No one can tell you that, but we can point the way. We've been trying really hard to explain it in easy ways for you to digest, but rather than listen to what we have to say you heatbutt and deny, which is not going to help you at all. It makes things worse.
A person who is ignorant how their drug use hurts others doesn't consider how their life relates to others.You may think that substance abuse is your choice and only your business. The truth is that you are victimizing the people who love you and depend on you. The results of drug abuse become more obvious as you become more involved in it. Illegal drugs have all sorts of chemical cocktails, and they screw your head up in more ways than just mere speculation. Over a period of time, many family members begin to experience emotions that leave them feeling burnt out, and this also includes your relationships. They become taxing.
Especially questioning Buddha himself. How would one trust the attainment of Nirvana without trusting that somehow it was attainable. You have to ask yourself how he was able to do such a thing, if it were possible, and why would you take that leap of faith and believe. I made the leap because it actually works, and has worked for me.
And that means what? That you're powerful exercising restraint? What does that mean? To take a look means you look at a teaching in the way that a child does. They test and see what works.
Are you willing to put yourself and others at risk when you know that that is the likely cost? You hurt yourself or someone else just to find out what you knew all along? That it's stupid to do? This is why I'm telling you. You are being selfish.
The affect of MDMA is not misconstrued at all. They're directly observed.
That is because in PTSD the person's Serotonin is already messed up and it causes the Seratonin to be shot out to excess and reputake to replenish lost neurotransmitters, but you aren't with PTSD are you? You're not taking it because you are sick, but because you want a high, and so you make excuses.
No it does not. Meditation does no such thing. Now you're talking out of nonsense metaphorical malarkey. I am brutal with that kinda stuff so I recommend you keep it to a minimum unless you want me to deconstruct it. You've been warned.
You broke up with your girlfriend and she moved on and you didn't. You are skeptical of Buddhism and yet you are drawn to it not as a valid philosophy but as a form of escape. You want to escape but are so desparately tied to a sense of self because I think you feel it's all you have left.
That's indeed true. :P
Hehe I doubt it.
I'm sure, but if that is true, you'd take what we've told you about it and tried to see if it is true. Take a step in the direction to where you become aware of what and why you want to know. You want the truth don't you?
That's my point.
It's not about not grasping thought. A worm doesn't think much but that doesn't grant him Nirvana does it? Meditation and mindfulness is the process of transcending thought processes. Our mind is a non-stop chatterbox that continues to create all sorts of good/ bad, relevant /irrelevant thoughts incessantly. In meditation we realize that we are not just our body and mind. There exists in us an awareness independent of all kinds of thoughts. Knowing this awareness is what meditation is all about. It's not just not thinking it's being aware of what you think and why you think that way. Meditation does not mean trying to have a blank mind. There is a difference between not being distracted and having a blank mind. Not being distracted means not getting caught up in thinking, not internally daydreaming to oneself. Keep the intention on the purpose of the meditation, which is to go deeper and deeper into calm-abiding.
Ironic because LSD doesn't physically harm a person at all but can emotionally tear them to shreds, but MDMA actually physically rips at the Neurotransmitters in the brain, and those can NEVER heal once fully gone.
That's all you bro. Stop taking ze drugs, I repeat, Drugs take away from your mindfulness, and is terrible for your practice.
So you're telling me you don't know what they actually entail. Because if you did know what they entail you wouldn't be taking them. We're talking about how a glass of water becomes poisonous to you. You end up in a puddle of your own waste paralyzed and unable to get up. If you knew, you wouldn't write it off.
No way. I know someone who died from it. Stop making excuses.
And we return to the heartbreak issue. She's moved on. You can too. You can recover, but you need to accept that she doesn't want to be together again. Feel and accept the pain that comes with it stop pushing it behind and sublimating it. Feel it.
See and that's the myth. You've screwed up your brain. The one possible thing that guides your thinking. It's the most important organ in your Body.
Yes, and that needs to stop in the name of your life.
That would make sense if this was a political issue. It is not. It's a matter of Neurology. It's a science issue.
You explored Buddhism because you wanted to explore it. Not because of drugs. That's rationalization.
And that's why I said unless you sat back and realized "Wow I don't need drugs to realize mindfulness" or "This is not helping me feel happy, I want to have no more suffering." then you probably didn't come for Buddhist Philosophy. The Buddha taught the alleviation of suffering and how to reach enlightenment. It's disrespectful to treat Buddhism as a high without the drugs.
You call me blind but do not realize that the basis of consciousness, of all life is in that stone.
You are right in a way, because you're talking about the presence of other sentient beings, but you are 100% wrong when you think you are separate from others. We are all interdependent. You wouldn't be who you are if I weren't who I am. and everyone weren't who they are ad infinitum. This is about fundamental reality. We're all so interdependent that we are "reborn" every moment we change our minds.
And that small scale applies to everything. Right down to the tiniest fundamentals of matter. We're all connected.
I told you before, belief is cheap. You get no where by believing in anything. But testing is everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, then wow you've found something. And I think that I've come on to something, and so I trust my instinct, and live openly certain with no belief.
That MDMA use doesn't hurt yourself or others.
One could only hope you don't.
I've mocked when it is silly. I have given you tons of advice, very helpful advice on the nature of relationships and also in the nature of reality, but choosing to suffer is easier.
That's the point. You don't need Buddhism at all, but you are here. You want Buddhism or maybe you don't want Buddhism. Maybe you want to try and contest Buddhism. Struggle against it. Something has to feel better 'eh?
Those aren't lies. They're the truth, but only if you really want it to be real, if you actualize that reality.
I don't think I know everything, the testing is never over until I take the old dirt nap. I think I know nothing, until I test and challenge what I think I know. That's the difference, I'm willing to take up the challenge of seeing things for what they really are, and put everything I know to the test. Are you willing to do that?
And this stupid notion I'm rejecting your god given help (which btw, is dully noted when it's real) or that of buddhism fails to understand that I never claimed to be a buddhism, and came here only to learn about it. Not to mention this "you guys" against "me" mentality is not actual fact. I'm as much a member as any other person on this board.
I contest and "struggle" against buddhism, because it is healthy.
Which apparently you agree with here :
"I told you before, belief is cheap. You get no where by believing in anything. But testing is everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, then wow you've found something. And I think that I've come on to something, and so I trust my instinct, and live openly certain with no belief. "
I'm doing no more than testing.
You really should look into that arrogance Fruit Punch Wizard, if you think you know any more than I do.
That's untrue. You just aren't aware that your drug use harms anyone else. Think about it. I was telling you directly that it kills people, and you acknowledge that it is dangerous, you also know it hurts people, and in spite of all that you still think it's okay to do it. You think what you are doing is right, and for me to tell you that that isn't true is seen as attacking you as a person. Wake up call, I'm telling you because I care about you not because I think you're a bad person. I've been down that road, and I know it leads only to pain misery and strife. I told you that I've done it before, and that it not only killed someone, but it leads to dulling of the mind and eventually permanent brain damage.
I don't think my giving you help is something that can help you unless you take and test it. If you just look at it as words it gets no where. Think about it.
I didn't say it was.
It's true that it is healthy, but to struggle against nature is unproductive. I don't mean Buddhism when I say that either. I'm talking about the nature of your feelings. The emotions you felt about the breakup. You still haven't quite taken the time to explore them yet have you?
That's true, we agree when I say try and test everything, but trying is the key. If you haven't tried something you can't test anything either. You can't test anything by asking others. You can't even test something by asking the masters, you have to experience it yourself.
So be brave, and test it with your own experience (^‿^)
I have asked about it before in the Advanced Buddhism thread. Maybe you have some tips. I ask that you contribute too. I would appreciate it if you told me everything to help me quell my arrogance. I acknowledge it, and neither deny, nor hide it.
Take some LSD, take some MDMA. Its an interesting life experience. There is nothing wrong with trying substances, just don't abuse them.
If you try to turn it into a moral issue, then you can do that with tons of things in life. You know the electricity that you are using to log onto this forum is fueled by the burning of petroleum fuels which produce toxic gases, so you're being here is hurtful to others.
People spend money on all sorts of selfish things, when they could be using their resources to help those in poverty. If you are so concerned about morals and ethics, than you seriously would have live in a monastery in order to avoid the selfishness that exists in our every day society.
Drug use, by itself, isn't inherently moral or immoral. It is your attitude towards it that decides that. And sure drugs can cause physical damage to your body, but so does standing in the sunlight. That doesn't mean you always carry an umbrella around.
You know looking at a computer screen is bad for your eyes, right?
And if you are being harmful in your relationships, don't blame the drugs. Its you thats doing the harm.
But no, this does not mean I am suggesting everyone to use psychedelics or that there are no risks. In fact many people can become even more deluded from psychedelic use.
To say psychedelics drugs will absolutely lead you to enlightenment would be incorrect. To say psychedelic drugs absolutely destroy mindfulness and absolutely provide no psychological benefit would be incorrect.
Nothing in life is as simple as black & white. Drugs are no different.
So why hasten death?
This was little comfort to the kid who died from water intoxication or the kid who jumped off a building because he thought he was superman.
And I can, and do. I don't pretend for a moment that I am innocent of having done this, I just know it's stupid from experience, and no, it is not something you should do, and no do not take it for "an interesting life experience".
Right, and I'm fully aware that this is a bad thing for others, and I use it anyway, but I will not pretend like it is the right thing to do. It is wrong. I do it for selfish reasons.
And I do what I can. I have been helping with amnesty international and the indigenous women educational foundations, and many other charitable foundations. If you want to help me start one that's another topic for another time
I am not able to, but not out of lack of wanting to, but because I physically cannot. I'm not wealthy, so I have to earn money, and I need to be able to drive so that I can join a Monastery, and when I leave home and make that step, I must possess the compassion to make sure that I leave with no obligations behind and no lingering regrets. No to say it won't happen. It will.
But it is stupid and unwholesome. What kind of useful productive activity do you think it will bring you to?
Attitude is brought about by experience. All things are interdependent, and to say that these drugs have not harmed our society and killed people betrays horrible ignorance of what drugs can do to self, and others holistically.
And your mind. It's not just about your body. You lose your ability to think clearly. Sometimes you can never get that back.
I'm the wrong person to talk to about that. My aunt has skin cancer. A little sunblock would have saved thousands in hospital bills and the horrific consequences of drug therapy.
Absolutely, and I have glasses made for the type of screen I have. It won't protect me forever, but I know what the consequences will be. Having astigmatism as well means that I will not be able to see forever and it can only get worse and worse until I am finally BLIND. Accepting this reality, I take the steps I can to keep my sight for as long as I can, until aging takes it from me and I bet it might be such a relief.
I'm not the right person you're looking for perhaps. I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I live in a way that I am deeply careful and deliberate about what I do. So how about you?
That's my main point. QED.
See as a Buddhist I will remind you about something called facts that you'll likely call bullocks because you are too biased, but the fact is that drugs hurt people. They hurt the person taking them, and as a result of their self-destructive behavior they hurt others who care about them. Taking drugs is ultimately selfish, it seeks one's own pleasure and happiness for a temporary moment and as a result leaves permanent damage. No one likes these facts, but they are the truth.
lol man you keep throwing darts at straw, because guess what bro? I don't drive either. I made a conscious decision to use public transportation, and to walk for many reasons.
1. It is a way to reduce my carbon footprint.
2. It is a way to reduce the commuters on the road by one.
3. I also walk more than the average person, so I am keeping my health up.
4. It is less for me to have to worry about.
a.)I won't kill creatures that cross the road
b.) I won't kill human beings in any way
c.) No threat of tickets
d.) Hardly any accidents
e.) More time to commit to mindfulness and meditation because I don't have to concentrate on the road.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
According to the fifth precept of the Pancasila, Buddhists should refrain from any quantity of intoxicants which would prevent mindfulness or cause heedlessness. This is SPECIFICALLY said that it prevents mindfulness and causes heedlessness. However follow through with me this little tale:
There was a monk who came across a woman who told him that he must either
a) kill her goat
b) sleep with her
c) drink a mug of beer (all of which are against the vows taken by Buddhist monks).
He thought to himself, well, surely if I kill the goat then I will be causing great suffering since a living being will die. If I sleep with the woman then I will have broken another great vow of a monk and will surely be lost to the ways of the world. Lastly, if I drink the beer then perhaps no great harm will come and I will only be intoxicated for a while, and most importantly I will only be hurting myself (which is important to him because monks try to bring all sentient beings to enlightenment as part of their goal).
So the monk drank the mug of beer and then he became very drunk. In his drunkenness he proceeded to kill the goat and sleep with the woman, breaking all three vows doing much harm in the world.
The lesson of this story is that alcohol causes one to break all of one's vows, in a sense we could say it is the cause of all other harmful deeds. Intoxication is self induced DELUSION making.
Oh you're quite right. Things aren't simple in black and white, but in what way could taking drugs be wholesome? They do not generate merit, and they do NOT lead to insight. Just like a moth would be distracted by the beauty of the flame, drugs only lead to self-destruction.
It's all about "Hey, look at me, I'm so good - I do this and that and to add to that, I know everything and I'm always right."
Suggest you to deeply contemplate on your motivations and intentions. Maybe read some of your posts and try to see, why exactly you have written what you have.
We can often be deluded enough to lie to others and ourselves, that we're just trying to help, but in reality we're trying to make ourselves feel better through our ego, which causes suffering to others and ourselves.
I could be wrong, tho.
In your experience.
My first trip on mushrooms made me realize how close minded and selfish I was. I've become a far better person after this realization, and I wholly attribute the mushrooms for this change in me.
Say what you will, but that is my experience. If that's not true for you, cool beans.
Holding to your opinions as absolute truth is what makes you sound so self-righteous.
"The Fact Is" - anybody can say that a fact is.
The people I know who have taken E/MDMA certainly do not hurt people, but are almost always more empathetic and kinder, while on it, and after.
Maybe abusing drugs hurts people, I'll give you that.
How can you know that is seeks ones own pleasure and happiness? One could take drugs to open their mind to benefit others, just like you would meditate to benefit others.
I'm basically just repeating what other people in this have said, but I'd like to say I think it's unwise to be saying things like "the fact is" and "no one likes these facts, but they are the truth."
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
-Buddha
I see where your coming from though, I know a lot of people who have been damaged, and have damaged others, by alcohol. I even have my share of damage from pot.
Drugs can be very dangerous I'll agree with that.
I'm telling you if you aren't careful you're going to hurt yourself and others. You might even kill yourself. To be self-destructive doesn't only hurt you. A person who is truly compassionate would understand that these actions are harmful and hurtful because it affects everyone around you. You are killing yourself and making everyone who cares about you watch.
Saying that I can't tell you this is wrong, comes from a fear that I won't love you in spite of this. That's not true. It's like how a sister loves their wayward brother, but any sibling who really and truly loves their brother will not let them continually hurt themselves. If people are totally indulged, as a result they become without fear of any consequence for the their actions or inactions, so"anything goes" has become an expectation, a right, despite its destructive and paradoxical nature.
I understand your fear of not being loved, but believe me if I attempted to cause love to occur using total indulgence, it would only result in the destruction of the recipient, in this case, you. That is not virtuous, with the knowledge that it causes you direct harm. It can lead to the devastation of everyone who cares about you. This isn't a lack of compassion. You think being benevolent and compassionate means that you become an enabler who lets a person engage in self destructive behavior?
How compassionate is that? If you could get past the my telling you what you are doing is harmful you would understand this; the Wizard is not mean, the Wizard cares. I don't want to see you guys die of water toxicity, I don't want to see your brains fried, your body destroyed, your life screwed up over by something that doesn't make you happy. Drugs just ultimately don't make you happy in the long run. They hurt you and for what? You haven't told me how it is wholesome yet.
That suffering reaction is a reaction to your own fear and thoughts from reading such a post without understanding the context.
And how does that solve anything? I suggest going to rehab and taking control of your addiction if something like this makes you want to drink. You might need help to get past the addiction and I know plenty of people who have. You can't let the drug own you.
So if no one wants to be beaten in the head with their own words, don't conceptualize words into a hammer.
Do you think I think anyone a bad person because they don't take control of their drug habits? No way! But I think to try and rationalize it away is to enabling it. I won't let you do that. You know it's harmful, you just do it anyway. So, why then?
I am not a person then? Did you conveniently ignore the part when I said I actually KNEW someone who died from using the said drug MDMA for drinking water? Forgotten 'eh?
Then you would know that it's not possible for you to get them to see that it's harmful until they see not how it affects themselves, but how it affects others.
Anytime you take any stance that is in opposition to what they think will get them to think that it's a personal attack instead of what it is. I'm letting them know. They're not their addictions, they're not their cravings.
That's because they've got less of an ego to assuage.
I'm not going to shred you. I'm not a monster yah know. There's no way to talk with young adults rationally without pulling the reality in front of them and making them see the ugliest of truths because they think they're invincible when they're at this age. They think that this newfound power that they have is somehow granting them a higher position on the moral landscape, but I'm here to remind them that they're mortal, fallible, and subject to the same things adults are. This means you gotta take the BS out. You need to tell them firmly that this is unwholesome and harmful BECAUSE they're not children and choosing to do this type of self sabotaging behavior is going to get them killed. If you want to treat them like overindulgent children, you can, but that'll get them killed.
I seen and have heard this from other people as well who have been
' opened up ' so to speak from drug induced states. In my work I have also worked with people who are acutely mentally ill from drug induced psychosis from taking mushrooms and other psychoactive substances ... and agree that it is possible - this is not the same as the results from practice though.
Once again I will say this, if a person is totally indulged then they are as a result without fear of any consequence for the their actions or inactions. Complete indulgence is an overcompensation, attempting to cause love to occur due to the showering of praise on a person who is self-destructive is not loving, kind, or compassionate. Total indulgence results in the destruction of a person.
Actually this was an attempt to find flaws with a person who is disagreeing with you only to find this person was the complete opposite of what you expected. I am neither good, nor perfect, but I find it ironic that all the things people tried to pin me down with were completely ineffective, because I am not what they expected me to be. I even said that I have tried the drugs before, and that I discovered myself through experience that they were harmful. I even said a kid I was with at said incident DIED from water toxicity.
Oh I have and I do, and I invite you to tell me how arrogant I am in this thread.
http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8085
You can give me your wise advice on how to help me curb the habit. I neither hide nor deny this fact. I am absolutely arrogant, but because I have self esteem.
Oh I read them, and I try to take care to edit them carefully before I post them down, but once posted up I will not take them down, because that would be hiding myself, hiding my faults, and being dishonest. I don't do that you see...
This is true, but you're forgetting a big point. This is deconstruction of the self. You can't lie to me, and I can't lie to you. I say drug use is physically harmful and leads to death. This is true, you say I am arrogant, and this is also true. Ultimately we're both right about something, but we're also both wrong about something as well.
I give the benefit of the doubt
Yes in my experience someone ended up dead too.
Maybe you've got a little way to go before you understand that using the mushrooms hurts others too.
That's called a Post hoc ergo propter hoc. I had the 'Shrooms therefore these naturally occurring states happened. You do know that the lifting of inhibitions was only how you conceptualized the drug to work. It's like how the people who got drunk on orange juice reacted when they're told it's been spiked.
Cool beans. :rolleyes:
That's because they're not opinions. They're conjecture held together by years of scientific research also given my own personal experience on the matter.
No, fact is an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. Fact is, drugs harm.
You missed a point. They're killing themselves. They're hurting the people who care about them.
Abusing drugs means using them unwisely. :rolleyes:
No, they could not. A person seeks pleasure when taking drugs. It's just that. Temporary euphoric pleasure.
No this compares meditation, which is mental development and the unfolding of wisdom to find an alleviation for universal suffering, to mere pleasure seeking. That's not the case. Drugs are done for selfish unwholesome and harmful reasons. What can you hope to gain from dosing?
Well the fact is.....
That you can't fight facts, I can't fight facts and no one can ultimately fight facts. They're facts and they'll always be true regardless of what we think of them. You don't have to like them, you don't have to regard them, but fact is fact.
Drugs are harmful and unwholesome. Your own reason and common sense knows this.
That's because it is physically poison. :rolleyes:
This testing is inconclusive, and I'd be wary of those studies, because I'm sure you also remember the study where subjects were given orange juice and were told it was spiked, and then as a result they got drunk.
That's because it was developed for that purpose when the drug was made. It was used to make interrogation subjects more suggestible. In the end it was a torture device. The people who they used it on went insane and never recovered. That's why it's illegal.
There've been studies on the harmfulness of these drugs for as long as they've been created. You still don't believe they're harmful?
What we don't know is the whole truth.
If what you don't know is the whole truth how can you know part of the truth?
That's funny. I spent two months reading on MDMA, before experimenting with it, and it was precisely BECAUSE of the scientific research on it I read about.
I knew the risks, I was mindful of them, I took the plunge. And I'm now exploring buddhism because of it. I don't know what YOUR experience with drugs was, but I only a couple of experiences with MDMA since I first took it. I'm not making my life around it.
You haven't taken the time to explain who I hurt when I took the drug aside from myself (which I don't believe I did, quite the contrary).
You haven't taken the time to admit how sometimes it can be a good lesson for some people DESPITE me admitting I'm on this forum because of it.
You keep shouting "facts" like people dying of water poisoning WHILE IGNORING the FACT that some people such as I, do take the time to read about these things before they do it, and were careful not to drink any alcohol while taking it, not overdoing it, and making sure they carried water with them neither underindulging not overindulging.
You keep shouting facts like people jumping out of windows because of LSD, ignoring the people and the cultural revolution and the psychiatric patients who benefitted form it.
You are not arrogant. You are afraid. Because you don't trust these young adults you talk about
Possibly because you are projecting your own lack of mindfulness when you were my age/when you experimented with these drugs.
This culture of fear and demonization of drugs is a sign of ignorance. The more information people have the better decisions they can make. And it's their own decision! Misinformation and propaganda is what makes people like the ones suffering from Cluster Headaches, not have a means to cure their affliction because the US government (as an example) wouldn't let LSD be researched until recently.
I didn't want to post this because others have already said enough. But I'd like to bring some of these facts to your attention nonetheless.
Numerous clinical studies have been done on the benefits of MDMA. Some report harmful results. So yes, its a fact that it is harmful. Some report beneficial effects. So yes, it is a fact that it is healthy. Nothing is black & white, remember?
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v12n3/12305dob.html
By taking one-sided facts and making a biased argument, you are eliminating a whole range of possibilities. Like people who say marijuana is bad for you. Sure, its not great for everybody, but there are cancer patients who swear by marijuana as the best painkiller available. Who are you to say they can't take marijuana for their pain?
The only point i'm trying to make is that everything in life depends on your INTENTION. If you are taking drugs as a high just to get fucked up and you become addicted to it, then yes that is harmful to yourself and others. If you take it occasionally for personal use, whether it is to help psychologically or physically ease pain, than that is a different story.
I'm not trying to say that most recreational drug use isn't selfish, because it is. OK, you hear that? I'm not disputing that it isn't selfish.
But to say that drugs can NOT have health benefits (mental or physical), as a blanket statement, is ignorant and bias. This is the only point that I am arguing.
In that sense its non-personal.
Who are you? Are you defined by your history or heritage?
What if you have memory loss, who would you be then?
I think you're really close to something. Keep at it.
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
Mhm, and who are you to decide what is a fact and what isn't?
You have your opinion and I have mine, whether truth is objective or subjective, neither of us are all-knowing.
Your looking at it in an all or nothing way. I could say that when you eat junk food, or aren't exercizing, you are killing yourself and hurting others.
It's about weighing the good and bad points against eachother. And I think that if one does it, but not regularly, the good factors outweigh the bad, and ultimately it has more of a chance of benefiting others and self.
Yea.
.
How would you, or could you know, what every person seeks when they take drugs?
And how come you dictate these facts any more than me?
How could you, or would you know what my reason and common sense knows?
Live to Learn, would you say that its harmfull, or neutral, (or even possibly benefecial), to people with biological-induced anxiety disorders?
Thats why I agree it is dangerous to dabble in psychedelic substances without the supervision of a doctor. When taking them recreationally, there is potential for them to cause more harm then good.
I've had friends that I've introduced to psychedelic drugs, and I always tell them they should take them in a safe environment and with people they are comfortable with, and not to mix them with other substances. I would never advise someone who is suffering a mental illness to take psychedelics to cure their problems, I would refer them to a doctor. Maybe I would ask them to ask their doctor about it.
In my personal experience, I would say psychedelics have made me more neurotic then I used to be, but I have made several changes in my life based on realizations I have had from these substances, and I am in a much better place because of those changes. In my experience, I haven't been harmed very much. But..maybe i'm just not seeing the harm, who knows.