Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
What i think about buddhism.
I was wondering why enlighted people write books, why they teach - and i don't think they do.
I never was interested in easter philosophy, but from what i read on this forum or wikipedia, buddhism seems to be "cult of enlightement", and not something that actually may bring you closer to enlightement.
Is there someone, for whom life is constant "dancing and singing", whom is actually enlighted, and can tell me that i'm wrong?
That you can achieve enlighting by following either someone or something?
That any of buddhism teachings make sense?
Someone, who feels absolute love to himself, that cannot be violated by anything - come there and tell me, that i am wrong.
I never was interested in easter philosophy, but from what i read on this forum or wikipedia, buddhism seems to be "cult of enlightement", and not something that actually may bring you closer to enlightement.
Is there someone, for whom life is constant "dancing and singing", whom is actually enlighted, and can tell me that i'm wrong?
That you can achieve enlighting by following either someone or something?
That any of buddhism teachings make sense?
Someone, who feels absolute love to himself, that cannot be violated by anything - come there and tell me, that i am wrong.
0
Comments
it's not about following someone, it's about learning techniques so you can overcome deeply rooted habits and misconceptions, and finally see yourself for who you are.
keep looking, experiment by meditating as opposed to make assumptions based on what it "look" like to you, and I believe that you will realize this for yourself.
Are you enlighted? If not, how do you know i'm wrong?
If that were the case, what would be the purpose of that?
But buddhism is just about praising enlightement, and not about getting closer to it (even though buddhists thinks differently).
i think that enlightement is "path that cannot be shown", and that "enlightement is not something to seek".
But buddhists says that they know path to enlightement, and they can show it to you.
I think this is wrong. And i don't say that buddhist masters wants to cheat you - i simply say that they are not trully enlighted.
I experienced *something* - and that *something* is the reason of my attitude towards buddhism; I think you all are wrong.
But prehaps i am wrong. That's why i would like to hear from someone who experienced more that me, who seen further, and can tell me that i am actually wrong.
Therefore, i am looking for someone i described in first post: whom life is constant "dancing and singing", whom feels absolute love to himself, that cannot be violated by anything - or someone who been there and achieved next stage, that is unknown to me.
So what "something" did you experience to make you feel as though Buddhism is wrong; and that you should convince us of that?
You are enlighted? How do you relate to what i wrote about life being constant "dance and singing", and feeling absolute love?
@edit
oh, you said im not wrong, didn't saw that.
So this is question only to seeker242.
But seriously though, it depends on what your definition of "Buddhism" is. If you define it as "fancy ideas", then I would say you are correct. However, if you define it as a practice, something that you actually do, training your own mind to cut through delusion, then yes it can bring you to enlightenment. But it is not the ideas of Buddhism that do that, it is actually doing the practices that do that. It's not just a fancy idea, it's something that you actually do.
seeker242:
I think that achieving enlightement is not about practise. It has nothing to do with "forging soul".
singing and dancing was metaphore :} i would like to know how do you relate to what i wrote, so i can judge if you seen further than me.
Then define it.
I wrote enough about my experience/buddhism/enlightement to judge if i'm saying about buddhist enlightement, so just read my older posts, there's not much of them.
I certainly don't aim for enlightenment. Or at least not total enlightenment.
So, I ask you to define what you are going on about in this thread and you point me to unnamed, unlinked to other threads that I should go explore to figure out what on earth you are going on about? Suffer from delusions of grandeur or get narcissistic much?
Of course you don't think Buddhism leads to enlightenment. That's likely because you suffer from delusions that you are enlightenment and you correctly recognize that Buddhism doesn't lead anyone to your doorstep.
Dunno what to say other than 'grow up' but I realize it's not really very helpful to you.
Namaste
Ithaca
When you set out on your journey to Ithaca,
pray that the road is long,
full of adventure, full of knowledge.
The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
the angry Poseidon -- do not fear them:
You will never find such as these on your path,
if your thoughts remain lofty, if a fine
emotion touches your spirit and your body.
The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
the fierce Poseidon you will never encounter,
if you do not carry them within your soul,
if your soul does not set them up before you.
Pray that the road is long.
That the summer mornings are many, when,
with such pleasure, with such joy
you will enter ports seen for the first time;
stop at Phoenician markets,
and purchase fine merchandise,
mother-of-pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
and sensual perfumes of all kinds,
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
visit many Egyptian cities,
to learn and learn from scholars.
Always keep Ithaca in your mind.
To arrive there is your ultimate goal.
But do not hurry the voyage at all.
It is better to let it last for many years;
and to anchor at the island when you are old,
rich with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches.
Ithaca has given you the beautiful voyage.
Without her you would have never set out on the road.
She has nothing more to give you.
And if you find her poor, Ithaca has not deceived you.
Wise as you have become, with so much experience,
you must already have understood what Ithacas mean.
Constantine P. Cavafy (1911)
I am not enlighted, but i experienced *something*.
Something that makes me thing that enlightement is purely about acceptation - and whenever you use mantras, meditation, or someone else teachings, your simply moving away from your inner.
You have to accept yourself, but what you do is asking monks "how do i accept myself?", and that's doomed to failure, because if you ask such question it means you don't really want to accept yourself, you just want to benefit from your acceptation.
You can exchange word acceptation with enlightement, or love, because they mean almost same thing to me.
I'll quote myself for better explanation of my thoughs:
"Teachers cannot bring you neither closer or farther from enlightement.
Path to enlihtement cannot be shown, because you are unable to understand it unless you follow it.
Path to the truth runs trought lies. Being free from illusions doesn't comes from rejecting them, but from trully accepting them. Only fully accepted illusion can fade away.
This is also good time to explain what meditation is; it is not state of clear mind; it is simply state of thinking about what you really want to think, without forcing or evading particular thoughts; ultimately meditation will be state of clear mind, but as i sais before it doesn't comes from trying to make it clear, it comes from allowing it not to be clear. Now knowing that it's easy to seek clear mind by allowing it not to be clear, but it's just forcing yourself to do something you don't want to in order to achieve something. Having clear mind or being enlighted is not the purpose, it's not something to seek for; it's just final effect."
But why do i do all this?
Because i would like to seek enlightement and follow buddha teachings - but i think that anyone who achieves what i achieved realizes what i wrote and abandons all that stuff(and im not saying about "throwing away buddha figures", simply about not following teachings anymore)
But i'm lost and confused, because i achieved(and lost) it 2 years ago, and i'm not sure what to believe in.
That's why i'm seeking for someone, who achieved what i did, or someone who seen even further - to tell me, if this is right path.
You had a great experience which changed your understanding of enlightenment, your understanding of meditation.
You use to understand it a certain way, and now it changed.
Right now you believe that your previous understanding of what buddhism was teaching was correct, you think that Buddhism teaches what you used to believe.
But your great experience changed what you used to believe enlightenment was.
Since you think that your understanding of what buddhism teaches as enlightenment was correct before, now there is a discrepancy.
What you had was a great insight, followed by a period of time where you felt much different than you ever felt before.
But it's all it was. an insight. Insights changes the way you understand things.
If you go back and read the teachings of Buddhism again, you will realize that all that has changed is your understanding of the teaching.
Buddhism is not teaching what you used to believe, it's just that your understanding was limited before.
Go and try, it will be a series of "oh, they did teach this!!! How come i couldn't understand and see this before??"
it will be fun.
This is the first big insight that you had apparently, the whole thing will happen again.
no im not enlighten, just what you have experienced, and your reaction right now is actually pretty common. You will realize this soon.
I'm definitevly not interested in buddhism as religion, but i read about zen and it feels correct for me.
Could you suggest me some reading(books)?
I found Zen school in my city, and they say that "great discipline and strenght of will is required".
That definitevly doesn't seems correct with what i feel about *enlightement*.
Can someone explain this to me?
If enlightenment is a "path that cannot be shown," could it even be described as being incapable of being shown? If "enlightenment is not something to seek" can you cease seeking it on grounds of aspiring to it (obviously not)?
Buddhists will not say they that they can tell you the path, but they can certainly show you. To consider Buddhism a monolithic force decreeing a single clear path to liberation is gravely in error. More than anything the teachings attempt to clear you of your physical baggage (an appeal to the cosmic perspective of your transience, an appeal to your epistemic situation of walking in a dream world, an appeal to your existential situation as surrounded by the farce of independent objects and actions), emotional baggage (calm your mind, bring all beings into an equivalent relationship to you), and most difficultly existential baggage (your relation to the cosmos, your perception of existence, your acceptance of a worldview). These changes can be brought about through any skillful means, and as such Buddhist practice varies as to how to do that. When the student finally is wrapped so suffocatingly tight in contradiction (aspiring to cease aspiration, self understanding selflessness, or anything else you'd like to come up with), the teacher's job is finished. If the student is bereft of all attachments/conceptualizations for sake of transcending them (pardon the hypocrisy), surely they owe the teacher for getting them to that point.
I don't disagree about enlightenment itself. No one can show it to you, nor can you show it to anyone. The world as a whole, however, can teach you everything. Examine everything as though the key to your enlightenment rests solely and completely on that - for surely it does.
But I'm full of crap. I just came by the forum, saw this thread, and decided to contribute <i>something</i>, whether worthwhile to have read or otherwise.
If someone is to explain the difference, it may be pertinent to know <i>why</i> it seems incorrect that those are requisite. What do you feel about enlightenment that contradicts that view?
Meditation is joy, and enlightement has nothing to do with sacrafice, discipline etc.
It's is not about mindless following something you don't understand.
It's about understanding these things, and once you understand them, you no longer need discipline to follow them, because they are joyful, not painful.
Something like that. I can't fully express myself, but someone who read osho should know what i mean.
Namaste
I want to see the truth.
Hrm, okay. Though it might be good to question yourself this: why do you agree with him? Because of experiences in your life that seem to point to the truth of this? Because other teachers or sources of teaching which you already respect have said similar? Because you want for it to be true?
Okay..here is where we have a problem. While I agree with you that mindless following is not good, you have a fallacy here. There are more than two options ("enlightenment has nothing to do with sacrifice, discipline, etc" vs "mindlessly follow something you don't understand").
Buddhist approach to enlightenment =/= mindless following.
*thinks* To be fair, I suppose you could say it could be that way with a given individual, just as with any other religion. But for what it's worth, the Buddha himself warned against accepting another's words, including his own, without reflection and testing.
I've been busy too long making a Dharma facebook chat and I missed the whole convo and a good one it is.
It's not discipline in the sense where you're given to change things from the outside in. It's changing from the inside out to realize different aspects of reality. If you've made up your mind, no one can change your mind, nor can any evidence to the contrary. The problem comes from the issue that "proof" is personally chosen in relation to the ego.
People who believe don't need proof for anything.
People who are skeptical but open to believe will believe anything with enough proof.
People who are skeptical but don't really believe will eventually find enough proof that whatever it is doesn't exist.
People who don't believe won't believe no matter what evidence you give to them.
Some people believe the 1969 moon landing was faked, which goes to show how much 'proof' it takes to convince some people.
Proof is never a real open question but a personal one, since the ability to recognize 'proof' stems from what one is capable of accepting or believing in the first place.
So proof of enlightenment isn't one you need to find. As per the Buddha's teaching you need mental development to open your mind enough so you don't have to believe nor don't believe. It leaves you open to find the actual answers.
What is it you understand?
Consider it like a diet. If you've erected/destroyed the philosophical scaffolding at the conceptual level (itself a somewhat difficult task to make robust), it's somewhat akin to a basic understanding of nutrition. Simply because you understand a particular diet is best for you nutritionally speaking you still must have great discipline to only eat in accordance with it. Similarly, until you have come to realize what you believe you understand, it takes great discipline to always act in accordance with your belief.
If you want to see the truth - discipline yourself to see it.
like "i shall control my anger", or "i shall not lie and be truthfull".
it's seems like bunch of people pretending they are buddhas.
Even if we know something is right, that doesn't mean our thought process will keep us from doing the wrong things regardless. This is our conditioning that we must break out of; whether or not you had a moment of clarity that you think was enlightenment doesn't matter. You can cling to that, cling to thinking of it as enlightenment, but it will not make you enlightened. Follow the Noble Eightfold Path; do a lot of studying, and don't get caught up in "experiences" such as this that can take you off the path and turn into... all of this. Teachers are really the ones that put you in your place, trust me; this kind of thing happens to everyone. We see, we experience, something in our practice that is out of this world, beyond comprehension that we didn't see it or know it before, and it's like the world opens up for us. But, it's just one of many, and your teacher (if you had one) would say "Not yet, keep meditating!" (or something, maybe smack you with a stick if it were a Zen master).
I really really encourage you to pause all of this and read a few books on Buddhism, study guides such as on http://www.buddhanet.net, and study of the sutras and commentaries. Some of your ideas about Buddhism seem to be just vague assumptions that you're running with, and expecting everyone here to have to fix your view on every little point is rather selfish and difficult... this is your task, at least come to the table with some knowledge that most people here are familiar with. I don't mean to be mean, but this is the Advanced section of a Buddhist forum and your understanding is not of that nature.
Namaste
I like that story.
It is irrelevant. I have it on good authority enlightened people don't write books or teach:
So what does Osho know?
Yes... and i don't see point to pretend one's buddha when he's not.
One should understand that stealing is bad (i'm not saying it is, that doesn't matter), and not predent that stealing is bad while he don't really think so.
That's what i had on mind talking about "mindless following"
Oh, well I'm the wrong person to speak for that. I don't think people should pretend to be anything in regards to Buddhist practice, but rather grow their own natural good, and if like in a garden you want some seeds to flower you gotta pull out the weeds or certain things that aren't conducive to what you want.
Taking what isn't given to you is not "bad" in the sense of a moral judgment based on emotional aesthetics, but rather it's an expression of stupidity. To steal is just a stupid thing to do. It's prudent not to steal and stupid to steal.
See there's no idolizing the Buddha in most ideas of Buddhism, but more of a sincere ear listening to what he said about how things work. One can take what he said and begin cultivating the garden of the mind, or just ignore what he said as bunk and continue to cultivate the mind garden. A fool will let the garden get out of control and then get tangled in the Kudzu of their own mind and get choked to death with their own thoughts. It happens all the time.
What does "forging soul" mean? I don't know that term.
Why do you want to judge people to see if they are further than you? If you are interested in Zen, you should personally consult with a Zen Master and ask them these questions and see what they say. You would probably find that interesting.