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Proxy, I think a dedicated meditation practice is key. Enlightenment isn't something you can get from reading books or attending lectures. It's an experience, not an intellectual exercise, although learning and implementing the principles of Buddhist psychology and observing the precepts helps.
I'm definitevly not interested in buddhism as religion, but i read about zen and it feels correct for me.
there is no Buddhist religion.
The only religion part about Buddhism is what you made it to be.
So you want to meditate but you want to avoid the parts that you interpreted wrongly as being religious.
My guess is perhaps you used to attend a temple and the part that you thought to be religious were the rituals?
if this is right, then what i said in the previous post still applies (still applies even if my guess is wrong ).
as an example lets that the ritual of taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Shanga.
you use to have a very primitive understanding of what Buddhahood was etc... So probably when you took refuge in the Buddha, what you actually did was almost like asking some kind of external god to help you find enlightenment.
Now, because of your new found perspective and experience, the next time you would take refuge in the Buddha, you would take refuge in your own Buddha nature, inside of you, and for the first time, you would take refuge in the Buddha in a way that is closer to what you should have been doing since the beginning.
I found Zen school in my city, and they say that "great discipline and strenght of will is required".
That definitevly doesn't seems correct with what i feel about *enlightement*.
Can someone explain this to me?
If it is the rituals that you misinterpret as being "religious", some zen practices include many of them.
Nevertheless, your choices are still the same as before your experience.
There are many meditation practices and all are still valid.
The concentration meditation which will allow you to experience the 4 jhanas, Vipassana and it's 16 nanas...
It's your meditation practice, nothing religious about this
If you truly really want to avoid the rituals and the "religious stuff", i would recommand to you to read "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" by Daniel Ingram which is available for free here.
This book is massively popular and useful and stripped all of the "spiritual stuff" about the Vipassana meditation technique. This was the actual goal of writing the book to strip everything that is not technical.
It is highly technical and practical; and if you do read the book, you should participate in their discussion forum where many helpful very experienced and achieved practitioner will guide you and help you out.
But you presented an interresting challenge as you seem to have some bad karma toward working hard, so you may react negatively to Vipassana since the common guideline is to meditate a minimum of 2 hours a day if you take your practice seriously.
Perhaps a different path would be more suited to fit your restrictive predispositions, have you ever heard of Actual Freedom?
This technique basically doesn't require any sitting meditation at all, and progress seems to be made at a pace unprecedented in other techniques.
I personally find it to be very effective to me, especially to trigger the kind of experiences you described in your other thread.
Anyhow if you are interested in my opinion, i would recommand to read Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha first, then ask all of your questions in their discussion forum (you will have some i promess).
In anyway, you will have a very clear picture of the path ahead. And then read About Actual freedom, which can be included in virtually all meditation practices.
You will turn the corner and re-evaluate your interpretation of Buddhism as a religion anyway eventually, but it doesn't have to be now.
There was a story in Osho book about thief that comes to master and says he seeks for enlightement, but he is not going to stop being thief. Then master answer he don't care if he's thief, or whatever he does.
I like that story.
You may also like this Osho quote:
"And the mind is always a chooser, it lives through choosing. The moment you stop choosing and allow life to be as it is, you immediately fall into the middle. Let-go is the way of the middle. Choicelessness is the meaning of let-go; Then you allow life, whatsoever it brings.
Buddha calls it the philosophy of suchness, ’tathata’, the philosophy of as-it-is-ness. Let it be as it is: when it is night, it is night; don’t hanker for the day. When it is day, it is day; don’t ask for the night. When it is pain it is pain; when it is pleasure it is pleasure. Don’t choose, allow it to happen. Slowly, slowly a great understanding arises out of this allowing, out of this let-go. And that understanding makes you alert, aware that you are separate from both.
You are neither life nor death: you are just a witness. That witnessing is Buddhahood, that witnessing is enlightenment. And to be in the middle is the way to it. So let this be your key: never go to the extreme, always keep in the middle, like a tightrope walker.
Slowly, slowly, the knack arises. Once you have understood how to be in the middle the mind disappears on its own accord, because it cannot exist in the middle; that is the secret of the work. It can exist only in the extreme, opposite to something, diametrically opposed to something. It is a chooser: it can either love or hate.
It cannot rest in the middle without choosing, without prejudice. It cannot allow things to have their own way. It interferes, it tries to impose itself upon reality. Reality is, God is, and all is already as it should be. We have just to relax and allow it to be."
It does need discipline, the same discipline that any chosen skill or way of life requires discipline.
Think of it like learning a musical instrument. If you really want to master the instrument you will practise every day, probably setting aside a particular regular period of time.
Ot think of it like digging a new irrigation channel so that the water of your attention and energy finds a new 'path of least resistance'. You will need to keep the channel in good order, particularly when the stormy times come, because the energy will tend, at first, to move back into old, familiar ways.
Discipline is no bad thing. You learned to control your bladder. That was discipline of sphincter muscles. Of course, you probably don't remember it. That's because it has become the natural way to behave (just wait till you get old!!! LOL) You learned the discipline of speech and of writing and, possibly, of a sport.
Discipline does need the application of the will, of course.
As i have seen today and yesterday, what i experienced 2 years ago has changed not only my meries, but also who i am.
For that 2 years life was meaningless for me, because i knew that the only moment when i trully lived was during my experience, and my main activity was trying to re-achieve this state. But i never miditated intenitonally, i think i was waiting for entering into meditation state "by itself" (without intention).
I was afraid of meditation, now i think it's maybe because of illusions that fade away, not because "it's not correct with my true-self" - it was just incorrect with my ego.
Anyway, meditation comes quite easly to me, since i don't have many distractions - almost everything is meaningless to me and my mind is almost empty for whole time, and thoughts that wander around have "low strenght". And i dont find noises disturbing, so i meditate in bus, during lecture, etc.
Also, i dont consider meditating 2h daily as a lot of time.
Im writing this, because i don't feel like i'm on the beginning of path, and i would like to read something that suits my "stage".
As i have seen today and yesterday, what i experienced 2 years ago has changed not only my meries, but also who i am.
For that 2 years life was meaningless for me, because i knew that the only moment when i trully lived was during my experience, and my main activity was trying to re-achieve this state. But i never miditated intenitonally, i think i was waiting for entering into meditation state "by itself" (without intention).
I was afraid of meditation, now i think it's maybe because of illusions that fade away, not because "it's not correct with my true-self" - it was just incorrect with my ego.
Anyway, meditation comes quite easly to me, since i don't have many distractions - almost everything is meaningless to me and my mind is almost empty for whole time, and thoughts that wander around have "low strenght". And i dont find noises disturbing, so i meditate in bus, during lecture, etc.
Also, i dont consider meditating 2h daily as a lot of time.
Im writing this, because i don't feel like i'm on the beginning of path, and i would like to read something that suits my "stage".
Comments
The only religion part about Buddhism is what you made it to be.
So you want to meditate but you want to avoid the parts that you interpreted wrongly as being religious.
My guess is perhaps you used to attend a temple and the part that you thought to be religious were the rituals?
if this is right, then what i said in the previous post still applies (still applies even if my guess is wrong
as an example lets that the ritual of taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Shanga.
you use to have a very primitive understanding of what Buddhahood was etc... So probably when you took refuge in the Buddha, what you actually did was almost like asking some kind of external god to help you find enlightenment.
Now, because of your new found perspective and experience, the next time you would take refuge in the Buddha, you would take refuge in your own Buddha nature, inside of you, and for the first time, you would take refuge in the Buddha in a way that is closer to what you should have been doing since the beginning.
If it is the rituals that you misinterpret as being "religious", some zen practices include many of them.
Nevertheless, your choices are still the same as before your experience.
There are many meditation practices and all are still valid.
The concentration meditation which will allow you to experience the 4 jhanas, Vipassana and it's 16 nanas...
It's your meditation practice, nothing religious about this
If you truly really want to avoid the rituals and the "religious stuff", i would recommand to you to read "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" by Daniel Ingram which is available for free here.
This book is massively popular and useful and stripped all of the "spiritual stuff" about the Vipassana meditation technique. This was the actual goal of writing the book to strip everything that is not technical.
It is highly technical and practical; and if you do read the book, you should participate in their discussion forum where many helpful very experienced and achieved practitioner will guide you and help you out.
But you presented an interresting challenge as you seem to have some bad karma toward working hard, so you may react negatively to Vipassana since the common guideline is to meditate a minimum of 2 hours a day if you take your practice seriously.
Perhaps a different path would be more suited to fit your restrictive predispositions, have you ever heard of Actual Freedom?
This technique basically doesn't require any sitting meditation at all, and progress seems to be made at a pace unprecedented in other techniques.
I personally find it to be very effective to me, especially to trigger the kind of experiences you described in your other thread.
Anyhow if you are interested in my opinion, i would recommand to read Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha first, then ask all of your questions in their discussion forum (you will have some i promess).
In anyway, you will have a very clear picture of the path ahead.
And then read About Actual freedom, which can be included in virtually all meditation practices.
You will turn the corner and re-evaluate your interpretation of Buddhism as a religion anyway eventually, but it doesn't have to be now.
What do you mean by that?
You may also like this Osho quote:
"And the mind is always a chooser, it lives through choosing. The moment you stop choosing and allow life to be as it is, you immediately fall into the middle. Let-go is the way of the middle. Choicelessness is the meaning of let-go; Then you allow life, whatsoever it brings.
Buddha calls it the philosophy of suchness, ’tathata’, the philosophy of as-it-is-ness. Let it be as it is: when it is night, it is night; don’t hanker for the day. When it is day, it is day; don’t ask for the night. When it is pain it is pain; when it is pleasure it is pleasure. Don’t choose, allow it to happen. Slowly, slowly a great understanding arises out of this allowing, out of this let-go. And that understanding makes you alert, aware that you are separate from both.
You are neither life nor death: you are just a witness. That witnessing is Buddhahood, that witnessing is enlightenment. And to be in the middle is the way to it. So let this be your key: never go to the extreme, always keep in the middle, like a tightrope walker.
Slowly, slowly, the knack arises. Once you have understood how to be in the middle the mind disappears on its own accord, because it cannot exist in the middle; that is the secret of the work. It can exist only in the extreme, opposite to something, diametrically opposed to something. It is a chooser: it can either love or hate.
It cannot rest in the middle without choosing, without prejudice. It cannot allow things to have their own way. It interferes, it tries to impose itself upon reality. Reality is, God is, and all is already as it should be. We have just to relax and allow it to be."
Danke.
It does need discipline, the same discipline that any chosen skill or way of life requires discipline.
Think of it like learning a musical instrument. If you really want to master the instrument you will practise every day, probably setting aside a particular regular period of time.
Ot think of it like digging a new irrigation channel so that the water of your attention and energy finds a new 'path of least resistance'. You will need to keep the channel in good order, particularly when the stormy times come, because the energy will tend, at first, to move back into old, familiar ways.
Discipline is no bad thing. You learned to control your bladder. That was discipline of sphincter muscles. Of course, you probably don't remember it. That's because it has become the natural way to behave (just wait till you get old!!! LOL) You learned the discipline of speech and of writing and, possibly, of a sport.
Discipline does need the application of the will, of course.
Does that make sense?
Try reading this. .."What is Buddhism?" by Bhante Vimalaramsi
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Talks/Transcripts/WHAT-MAR03-TS.htm
Then this... "The Four Noble Truths" by Ajahn Sumedho.
http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm
Kind wishes,
Dazzle
I'm not really into Easter either.
The idea of a giant bunny breaking into my house in the middle of the night gives me the creeps.
For that 2 years life was meaningless for me, because i knew that the only moment when i trully lived was during my experience, and my main activity was trying to re-achieve this state. But i never miditated intenitonally, i think i was waiting for entering into meditation state "by itself" (without intention).
I was afraid of meditation, now i think it's maybe because of illusions that fade away, not because "it's not correct with my true-self" - it was just incorrect with my ego.
Anyway, meditation comes quite easly to me, since i don't have many distractions - almost everything is meaningless to me and my mind is almost empty for whole time, and thoughts that wander around have "low strenght". And i dont find noises disturbing, so i meditate in bus, during lecture, etc.
Also, i dont consider meditating 2h daily as a lot of time.
Im writing this, because i don't feel like i'm on the beginning of path, and i would like to read something that suits my "stage".