Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Newsflash! Gotama Siddartha Never Existed.
buddhafoot
Veteran
Newsflash! Gotama Siddartha Never Existed.
After reading an article that Brian created regarding the Dali Lama's view on science and also reading a couple of posts from some members regarding the doubt of Buddha's teachings - I got thinking...
What if Gotama never existed? I mean, it is a possibility. There were centuries of oral tradition before his teachings were ever written down. Was it possible that during a time of religious unrest in Hinduism that "someone" could have made up these stories?
What if someone "brought" these teachings, that were made up, to the masses and started teaching them? New ideologies and theories about many forms of religious practice have come and gone - some brought along by just one person.
Where would that put you with your beliefs? If you knew for a fact that Buddha never lived? What would that do to your practice? Your belief in Nirvana? Your belief in rebirth and reincarnation?
What would you do?
-bf
After reading an article that Brian created regarding the Dali Lama's view on science and also reading a couple of posts from some members regarding the doubt of Buddha's teachings - I got thinking...
What if Gotama never existed? I mean, it is a possibility. There were centuries of oral tradition before his teachings were ever written down. Was it possible that during a time of religious unrest in Hinduism that "someone" could have made up these stories?
What if someone "brought" these teachings, that were made up, to the masses and started teaching them? New ideologies and theories about many forms of religious practice have come and gone - some brought along by just one person.
Where would that put you with your beliefs? If you knew for a fact that Buddha never lived? What would that do to your practice? Your belief in Nirvana? Your belief in rebirth and reincarnation?
What would you do?
-bf
0
Comments
Remember that the Buddah said for us to make sure we agreed with what he taught with to start. I do agree with most of what I've read so far. Some of it I can see as myth and those parts I use as a possible psychological statement of how our mind might react to certain behaviors. :eek2: I'm not sure if those "planes of existence" are real.
Third, do you have too much time on your hands BF?
Your Friend,
"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching".
I'm pretty new with all this, but I perceive the teaching as good.
What if Christianity or Islam or the worship of RA or any other religion is the "true" religion? What will you do? Is following the teachings of Buddha enough for you in this life and the next?
-bf
The historical fact that the Revolutionaries who wrote the US Declaration of Independence and Constitution comprised salave-owners, adulterers, oath-breakers and drug-takers does not invalidate the content of the documents.
Beware, once again, the cult of personality.
The Buddha was recorded as once saying, in response to question of what was the summation of his Path, "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya." That is, "Nothing whatsoever should be clung to." This would include even the Buddha himself.
I agree with Brian that no matter who first taught the Dhamma, it is a very wise, positive, and skillful way of living. Whoever took their time to learn and discover these great truths is well worth my admiration. In it, the Dhamma takes the conditioned world and breaks it down into it's rudimentary processes. From there, it opens up our way of thinking to view our human existence in a whole new way.
We are also given a Path to follow that has many greatly beneficial side-affects. One of those 'side-affects' is the complete and utter freedom from suffering. Another 'side-affect' is that we live in harmony with the rest of our fellow man. And yet another such 'side-affect' is that we are given the strength and encouragement to do all of this without a bribe of an eternal heaven, or the threat of an eternal hell (even regardless of the heavenly and hellish realms spoken of in Buddhism since these realms were taught to be impermanent).
We are pointed to ourselves as our own refuge. We are taught that we should be responsible for our own actions, not a God, Devil, Fate, or the whole of humanity. It is we who are the owners, the heirs to our own kamma. We are shown how not to place the blame on others. In Buddhism, the 'Devil' did not make me do it, it was my own greed, hatred, and delusion that made me do it. If I want to refrain from doing such a thing again I should deal with the root causes of such actions, not place the blame on some external force or entity. That is a selfish, and childish reaction. As we grow older, so too should our spirituality.
I personally do not believe that any religion is the "true" religion. Religion to me is nothing but a reflection of our own fears and superstitions. I have certainly never been one to follow what was socially accepted as being 'right'. When I was a young teenager in high school I was a Devil-worshipper/Satanist, not because I thought it was cool, but because I believed in the views opposed to the masses that so ignorantly claimed that the way to salvation was theirs, and theirs alone. If their salvation was so great, why would the occupants of said "Paradise" rebel in the first place? When I graduated I became Pagan, not because it was popular, but because it helped to fill a void that I felt inside for some meaning to my life. Neither of these faiths were considered mainstream, or acceptable in society, (perhaps now there is more information and tolerance to such beliefs, especially Paganism), but that was never why I followed them.
Today I practice no religion, but instead I practice the skillful means of wholesome living. I follow the Noble Eightfold Path because I see the value in it. I benefit my self by increasing my happiness, as well as benefit others by increasing theirs. I am generous because I see the joy it offers others. I am kinder because I see how other people just want to be happy like me. I do not condemn others if they choose to have faith in a religion simply because I do not. If any "God" or "faith" were to tell me that what I was doing was wrong, well I simply would not want much to do with them. I trust and value my own discernment above all others. I am no sheep to be led, and I have no wish to be a blind shepard. It is my honest opinion that you will be very hard pressed to find a more compassionate, caring, open, and skillful way of life than that of the Buddha's Path.
The teachings of the Buddha are enough for me in this life, and if there is such a thing, the next.
Jason
BF, The Buddha (or whomsoever wrote all the sutras down for posterity!) taught us early on via the Kalama Sutra to question the Truth we seek, for ourselves. I, like Jerbear, would say that if Buddha didn't exist, I would still be following the Eightfold Path.
And if God exists, and He were to introduce himself on my passing, I would like to think - if he's the type of God I believe Him to be - that he'd say,
"Ok, so you put me on a back-burner, but you still did pretty Good.... I see you followed the 'Right Everything' philosophy.... I can live with that - !!":D :thumbsup:
(I've always been an optimist.....
Whether Buddha really was real or not, I still have no objection to the 4 Noble Truths and 8 Fold Path.
Brian:
I agree with you. All I know is this: since I started practicing Buddhism, my life has gotten better in my opinion. I am a much happier and contented person and I have learned to accept the different things happening in my life as just simply life's ups and downs. I also learned that it was the choices I made and no one else or some "unseen force" that caused things to happen that happened in my life whether for good or bad.
Adiana:wavey:
There's that wonderful anecdote of the guy who gets taken round a space station and shown, through incredibly powerful telescopes, stars invisible to the naked eye.... stars whose light takes five million years to reach the earth.... stars which by now, although still technically viewable, may in fact have vanished for ever...
'Wow!' 'Amazing!' 'Incredible!' 'My gosh!' is all he can say....
Walking across the grounds to another department, the guide tells him to watch his step, because this bench has only just been re-painted.... and the guy touches it just to make sure.....
"A little Faith, a little reverence, in the things we cannot see....."
So many scientists are intent on pulling some of the things hitherto held as sacred, to pieces. We now know, through scientific research, that much of what is told in the New Testament, is questionable. That the Turin Shorud is not as old as it was once believed to be.... That the finger-bone of this saint, or the half-eaten chicken carcass of another is nowhere near as authentic as devoted pilgrims believe it to be....
And so tragically, wonder and mystery are replaced by knowledge and fact. That which we gazed on in awe becomes every-day and ordinary. That which once gave Hope and inspired Faith is no more than a gruesome and macarbre object of disgust.....
Give Science due, where it is due. Where would we be without it today? We have so much to be grateful for..... but at the same time, what gives with a blessing, takes away and leaves us cursed.
So: Much as I know that The Four Noble truths tell it to me exactly as it is, bare bones and raw.... That the Eightfold Path is as true, honourable and absolutely crystal clear a set of guidelines as i could ever hope to find - I absolutely, completely, entirely thoroughly and totally INSIST on believing that Buddha, Siddarta Gauthama, Shakyamuni - was as real, and as living, and as breathing, and as exisiting as I am now.
So there.
I thought I should just clarify things...
I wasn't stating that Gotama Siddartha did not exist. I'm not stating that he never became enlightened. I'm really not stating anything. I'm just bringing up a topic to get people thinking about what Buddhism is to them.
I know what it means to me.
But, I have read posts and threads here which lead me to believe (including some of my own posts) that authenticity is critical regarding Buddhism. And that Buddhism might not be the or "a" right way?
-bf
While I agree with aspects of both points of view, I find that the proof is right before our eyes. All one needs to do is practice sincerely for a short while and you will have your evidence - evidence that cannot be refuted by anyone else because you have experienced it for yourself.
What if you were to learn that Albert Einstein never existed, or that he wasn't the real man behind the discovery of E=mc²? Would E=mc² not be useful anymore? Would that change your ideas about the world or how you live your life?
Just think about that for a moment.
How often do we associate the name Einstein with E=mc²?
We cling to the idea don't we?
What really, truly matters in Buddhism is that you can test these teachings out for yourself. If you devote a few years to reading the teachings and meditation you will see a difference. You will have some small level of 'insight'. You will have your proof. Whether a man named Gotama first discovered these wonderful ways of skillful living and meditation or not doesn't take away from their value. If after a few years of practicing you don't notice any difference at all, or no new understandings about life in general, then simply let it go and move on to something else. It's just that simple. That is why I admire it so much. If you find that it does not fits into your life, it's ok to just put it down! No questions asked!
As for science, look up all the studies that deal with meditation. In one you might find that the people who meditate are much happier and have lower stress levels, and in another you will find that certain parts of the brain might increase in mass due to meditation... really.
The bottom line is, Buddhism doesn't offer you heaven, complete knowledge of the entire universe, or a one-on-one ocnversation with "God". It only offers one thing: The understanding of dukkha, and the subsequent cessation of dukkha. For some people that is all they need.
Jason
What he said!
-bf
Ah, my friend, I see you subscribe to my fellah Nick's policy when placed on the back foot....
"Deny, deny, deny!!"
OK this is not a funny joke at all, but heck, no Buddhas? We can create Buddhas out of ourselves!
I'm just a figment of your imagination, Palzang.
Just like last night when I showed up in your dreams to torment you. Although, with it being just a dream, I can't figure out why you kept dreaming of me in a meter maid uniform rolling a giant doughnut with a stick down a street full of mimes.
I was the one that actually got creeped out last night. Keep your requests to yourself when I'm tormenting you.
-bf
Palzang
-bf
Now lets flip it. If God and/or Jesus never existed why would anyone make that up? I'm sure some of it does have to do with helping people live thier lives peacefully. However, there is another part of it. They also did it for power. If you look back in history you will find that the Catholic Churches had a lot of power not only over people's lives but over the goverment. Which is why within the US Consitution there is a seperation between the goverment and churches.
Don't let the fundamentalist xtians know that. They think all the writers of the constitution believed the way they do.
Why would people make that kind of stuff up?
Why did people make up Santa Claus?
Why did people make up the Easter Bunny?
Why did people make up vampires and werewolves and ghosts?
Why did people make up that there are alligators living in the sewers of New York?
Why do people make up things in Africa like "The only way for a man to get rid of AIDS is to have sex with a virgin girl."
Like you stated later in your post - some people make up things to control other people. Some of it's made up just for complete nonsense. Some of it is made up to help ease suffering (through illusion) or comfort.
-bf
Who knows why people make things up.
There's absolutely no way I could know that.
It's completely irrelevant to following a path. It's all trial-n-error. Just get on the path and start walking, see where it leads. It may take you somewhere, it may take you nowhere. Maybe it's not supposed to take you anywhere. Maybe just taking it IS the point. I don't know.
It's irrelevant who found the path. At least we know about it, and I appreciate that.
:thumbsup:
I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here...
But if he didn't exist - and his "enlightenment" is just a fairy tale that was made up by some people - how do we know what we are practicing has the end results we are looking for? What if meditation and following these practices end up in ... nothing?
-bf
If we know that to put our hand in a flame burns us, we don't repeat it.
Similarly, if something brings us good, beneficial, satisfactory and pleasing results, we decide that it brings us advantages - and we repeat it.
It is useless sometimes to dwell on the hypothetical -
As the saying goes:
"It little matters whether Heaven exists or not. The important thing is, to live life as if it did."
Control
And will the judges accept "Control"....?
Yes they will, and we have a winner!
-bf
And why fear? Ignorance.
Sangha...
I'm totally cool with my beliefs.
I was just putting up a thread to see how other people felt. Maybe question your beliefs. Maybe not.
-bf
It's okay.
I have this effect on people.
I'm a bastard
-bf
People, people. Let's stop are attachment to things! I mean c'mon. We really need so little in life. But if you are out, I really need a new 40GB MP3 player to put my chants on.
Good Question!
The 4 Noble Truths were the first thing I ever read that was "religious" that ever made sense to me, and the 8 Fold Path gave form to the way I've always known I should live. If there was a Buddha, and his true words are still available to me, then that is just icing on the cake my curious friend. The 4 Noble Truths and the 8 Fold Path - whatever their origin - are what I was looking for and are a very elegant expression. Now that I have found them, I'm looking for the nuances within.
(Was that clear? I'm not sure if I expressed it right.)
Nice to have you aboard,a nd thanks for joining us!
Damm I'd convert immediately!
Good to have you! It's fun being a seeker. You get to ask all those really cool questions that you always wanted to. It's actually what attracted me to Buddhism as the Buddha encouraged it. I've been meditating and reading stuff for about 5 months now and I'm still enjoying the journey. Make the most of it!
One question, are there many vegetarians here, or do you believe that eating meat is ok? (I'm vegetarian, but read that many Buddhists aren't anymore)