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What makes you think that logic can explain everything?
What makes you think it can't?
Because logic is limited to the sphere of conceptual thinking and some things are beyond the sphere of conceptual thinking. Rationality does offer a reasonable guide to evaluate ideas. However, when it come to evaluating ideas such as anatta or shunyata, it can only go so far. It can't go all the way to truly understanding these things.
There will never be proper scientific evidence of any form of after death existence, ghosts or heaven or hell or reincarnation, because there is no possible theory of how it could be real except for the supernatural. For centuries, people believed the proof that the Christian hell exists was obvious from the fact that it got hotter the deeper underground you went.
Buddhism is a religion for skeptics and nonbelievers like myself because it doesn't require belief in the supernatural miracles and wishful thinking about eternal reward and punishment after death that are the primary focus of the other systems. People being who they are, of course those beliefs have been woven into their Buddhist practice. But the focus remains on the 4 Noble Truths and the here-and-now.
Never? I think they said the same thing about breaking the sound barrier and thousands of other things. Yesterday's mysteries are today's science, and so it shall one day be with reincarnation, ghosts, heaven and hell.
As for the focus on the four noble truths, belief in the first noble truth seems a matter of simple observation, but the second noble truth of the cause of suffering, doesn't that take some leap of faith. And finally, the fourth noble truth, here is a concept that I think requires some faith to embrace.
I do not mean to sound arrogant but I see the scientific method as very limited; it's based on the five senses, logic and reason. Ultimately science really can only provide us technology which should be used to make life better for more people.
It does not answer "spiritual" questions and never will. Why? Because by it's very nature: for every question it answers it raises ten more questions! LOL.
FWIW, Here's a diagram of what's happening when science is done. There's no room for supernatural, divine or spiritual questions.
Roger, I think that every answer will raise ten more questions, no matter what. It depends on what you consider a "spiritual" question. I think in time science can and will answer what we may now consider spiritual questions.
There will never be proper scientific evidence of any form of after death existence, ghosts or heaven or hell or reincarnation, because there is no possible theory of how it could be real except for the supernatural.
Quantum physics string theory, which postulates the existence of many alternative dimensions, may be one answer as to the existence of "supernatural" beings, spirits, etc. Science is getting there, slowly, and with two steps backwards for every step forward, it sometimes seems.
Dakini, the string theory needs more mathematical dimensions than we're used to working with. We have the three dimensions of space (x, y ,z) and time, while the string theory needs 11 to be mathematically viable (according to the M-theory). However, the string theory doesn't have much of a use right now. The theories which have real uses (relativity or EM) don't predict any such dimensions.
Of course QM is applied on a much smaller level than EM or relativity, so it would make sense if at really close range there are more dimensions. The example wikipedia gives is a hose. When you look at it from far away, it has only one dimensions, but when you get closer you can see that there are 3.
So, my point is string theory has nothing to do with ghosts, realms or sci-fi type of alternative dimensions. It's something more like this. That shape satisfies the 6 extra dimensions predicted by the M-Theory.
Again, I'm no expert but I've been wondering about this for a while. Science make certain promises but never delivers on them.
Because of it's methods it's like being in a fish bowl and all it can do is go a certain distance and then turn in on itself. What is turning in on itself? The embodied five senses and the rational mind. Telling us more about our "reflections" than anything eternal or beyond the senses.
Also, what we lay people read about the latest developments are analogies and metaphors created by people who popularize the extremely arcane mathematics. The meaning of physics is in the mathematics not the explanation of the mathematics. I am (we are?) excluded from the mathematics because I don't understand that language. All we get are connotations that come from ordinary language. It's more the **poetry** of the explanations of possible implications we're being impressed by and less the actual science which is in the mathematics. As y'all know poetry is not science. BTW, I DO like the poetry!
Just my current POV on the subject. Not cast in concrete.
Science make certain promises but never delivers on them.
Roger, what do you mean by this? What sort of promises? Who exactly makes these promises? What authority does this person or organisation have to make a promise on behalf of all science?
Also, it's not all mathematics. It's mathematics derived from observation. You can make the same observations. If two variables are linked, you can find out exactly how they're linked. You can find the constants required to make that link and you can find whether or not the link is linear. Once you know how they're linked you can come up with an equation. Then you can plug any value into that equation and make predictions. If you test those predictions and they turn out to be correct, you've go yourself a theory.
So, why hasn't science made any real observations about the paranormal? Well, because all solid research shows that there are none.
People's desire to believe in the paranormal is stronger than all the evidence that it does not exist.
It seems most discussion concerning karma and rebirth etc always turns "scientific"... which probably hinders spiritual development because it just creates more notions for the mind to get attached and egos gets inflated or deflated.
Whats important is purify the mind, cramming in knowledge after knowledge doesn't do that.
Epicurus you cannot prove the mind emanates from neurons. We only observe them synchronous. That synchronosity is such. To understand this you need to look at relative truth and ultimate truth system in mahayana buddhism. Relative truths are relative observations. Such as the sun rises in the east. Or KE = (1/2)mv squared. Its just observed but the causality is not viewed in buddhism as ultimately real (at least not mahayana). The only ultimate truth of reality is that it has no fixed qualities or characteristics. That means the only real thing isn't the layout of observations but rather the awareness. The mirror is real but the image in the mirror is impermanent, nonself, and suffering.
By mirror I am not talking about the 6 senses, the manas, and seeds. I am talking about emptiness, ultimate bodhicitta, nirvana, etc..
The former is sems which becomes relative bodhicitta when the action of a buddha exists. Sems http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/mind_sogy.html However Rigpa is not dependent on neurons. I think in the Gelug? or Rangtong (self empty) system Rigpa is dependent on phenomenon so it would be as you say. In the Shentong system if I am correct Rigpa is fused with phenomena. When there is eating there is eating. When there are neurons there are neurons. When there is touching there is touching. When there is hearing there is hearing.
Nagarjuna critiqued shentong - how can the unconditioned be established if the conditioned is not.
Nagarjuna crtiqued rangtong - if an object is empty of self then how is there anything to be empty of self
You are not wrong precisely to say mind emanates from neurons. But unless you entertain that idea you will miss out on some powerful teachings that can unlock your mind. If you can show me that you can establish existence without premises then I will concede that you should not follow buddhism because buddhism is a logical contradiction.
Thickpaper thoughts and thinker are insubstantial dependently arisen. There are no thoughts. Thoughts cannot be established without premises. As phenomenon they cannot be pinpointed by thought.
A thought is not what we think it is. It can be deconstructed just as a snowman is not 3 snowballs a carrot and coal.
Thickpaper, you are already a Buddha. I have no reason to try to make you just like me. But if you would like to discuss this we can until we are beating a dead horse.
...the six karmic realms and past lives and so on. Everything else seemed so logical and well thought out...
Hi
The six realms can be regarded as psychological or physical. If they are regarded as psychological, then they are logical.
The human realm is one of reflectiveness & ethics; the god realm is one of bliss, power or compassion; the hungry ghost realm is one of greed or addiction; the hell realm is one of suffering, despair, anger, etc; the animal realm is one of ignorance & instinctual reactiveness; and the titan realm is one of fear.
If you wish your Buddhism to be logical and well thought out, then try thinking as I have suggested.
Also, you can try reading question 47 at the following link:
Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech & intellect.
"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Sense contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.
"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.
"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now [e.g. pleasure from alcohol], that which arises later [e.g. hangover from alcohol] and that which arises following that [e.g. habit or craving for alcohol]. This is called the result of kamma.
Dharma Dhatu. What do you think of upadesha instructions which are not in the form of the text you referred to but are a beings methods of dislodging someone from wrong views. Do they have a place in the dharma? If you cut off all the branches then someone won't waste their time and will eventually see the root.
"The six realms can be regarded as psychological or physical. If they are regarded as psychological, then they are logical."
Absolutely, DD. Thinking about the existence of other realms somewhere, other lives and the results of kamma, is all just pointless speculation. Dhamma practice is about present moment awareness in the here and now.
Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives, by Jim Tucker, MD
The author examines follow-up investigations done to confirm or deny what young children said about their past lives (visiting the neighborhood where they said they'd lived, talking to relatives they described, etc.), then he presents possible alternative explanations (if any), and examines those as well. Interesting book
The road of absolute skepticism ends in solipsism. "All things that exist are impermanent."
Is comparable with:
"No things that exist are contradictory."
Interesting stuff methinks, if your interested in this kinda stuff:)
namaste
I too like trying to wrap my head around these kinds of statements. "What are called all dharmas are, in fact, not all dharmas. That is why they are called all dharmas." Doh!!!!
I think when I said thoughts come from nowhere and go nowhere it is a recognitions of the interconnectedness. You can't pinpoint any certain cause. This can be thought of as all phenominon have multiple causes. But go further and no phenominon is an entity to itself.
This is a better explanation of my statement come from nowhere and go to nowhere. Nonetheless it is also a meditative awareness experience.
We are taught in Buddhism that if something does not relate well to our experience, then it is imponderable for us and we do not have to follow it.
This is what attracted me to the practice of mindfulness in the first place. It is also what keeps me from posting "too much" here. Getting bogged down in theory and concepts takes my focus off the actual practice, and takes me into a realm of logic and intellectualizing. While insight may be gained from this, it may also create more delusion, because trying to identify certain things or people as "Buddhist" or not perpetuates my beliefs in things that are actually social fictions.
Perhaps our thoughts and beliefs follow our actions and experience, not the other way around. Perhaps believing oneself or belief is "Buddhist" is actually believing in a duality, because the only alternative the word implies is "non-Buddhist".
In my opinion, this practice is inherently counter to belief systems. It makes sense, considering that through experience, I have felt the suffering that comes from belief systems.
Comments
There will never be proper scientific evidence of any form of after death existence, ghosts or heaven or hell or reincarnation, because there is no possible theory of how it could be real except for the supernatural. For centuries, people believed the proof that the Christian hell exists was obvious from the fact that it got hotter the deeper underground you went.
Buddhism is a religion for skeptics and nonbelievers like myself because it doesn't require belief in the supernatural miracles and wishful thinking about eternal reward and punishment after death that are the primary focus of the other systems. People being who they are, of course those beliefs have been woven into their Buddhist practice. But the focus remains on the 4 Noble Truths and the here-and-now.
Never? I think they said the same thing about breaking the sound barrier and thousands of other things.
Yesterday's mysteries are today's science, and so it shall one day be with reincarnation, ghosts, heaven and hell.
As for the focus on the four noble truths, belief in the first noble truth seems a matter of simple observation, but the second noble truth of the cause of suffering, doesn't that take some leap of faith. And finally, the fourth noble truth, here is a concept that I think requires some faith to embrace.
It does not answer "spiritual" questions and never will. Why? Because by it's very nature: for every question it answers it raises ten more questions! LOL.
FWIW, Here's a diagram of what's happening when science is done. There's no room for supernatural, divine or spiritual questions.
It depends on what you consider a "spiritual" question. I think in time science can and will answer what we may now consider spiritual questions.
Of course QM is applied on a much smaller level than EM or relativity, so it would make sense if at really close range there are more dimensions. The example wikipedia gives is a hose. When you look at it from far away, it has only one dimensions, but when you get closer you can see that there are 3.
So, my point is string theory has nothing to do with ghosts, realms or sci-fi type of alternative dimensions. It's something more like this.
That shape satisfies the 6 extra dimensions predicted by the M-Theory.
Because of it's methods it's like being in a fish bowl and all it can do is go a certain distance and then turn in on itself. What is turning in on itself? The embodied five senses and the rational mind. Telling us more about our "reflections" than anything eternal or beyond the senses.
Also, what we lay people read about the latest developments are analogies and metaphors created by people who popularize the extremely arcane mathematics. The meaning of physics is in the mathematics not the explanation of the mathematics. I am (we are?) excluded from the mathematics because I don't understand that language. All we get are connotations that come from ordinary language. It's more the **poetry** of the explanations of possible implications we're being impressed by and less the actual science which is in the mathematics. As y'all know poetry is not science. BTW, I DO like the poetry!
Just my current POV on the subject. Not cast in concrete.
Also, it's not all mathematics. It's mathematics derived from observation. You can make the same observations. If two variables are linked, you can find out exactly how they're linked. You can find the constants required to make that link and you can find whether or not the link is linear. Once you know how they're linked you can come up with an equation. Then you can plug any value into that equation and make predictions. If you test those predictions and they turn out to be correct, you've go yourself a theory.
So, why hasn't science made any real observations about the paranormal? Well, because all solid research shows that there are none. -Dr Susan Blackmore
Whats important is purify the mind, cramming in knowledge after knowledge doesn't do that.
The former is sems which becomes relative bodhicitta when the action of a buddha exists. Sems http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/mind_sogy.html
However Rigpa is not dependent on neurons. I think in the Gelug? or Rangtong (self empty) system Rigpa is dependent on phenomenon so it would be as you say. In the Shentong system if I am correct Rigpa is fused with phenomena. When there is eating there is eating. When there are neurons there are neurons. When there is touching there is touching. When there is hearing there is hearing.
"There is no thinker only thoughts"
And
"There is no thinker only brain activity."
Are these not the same? if not, where might a difference be?
namaste
Nagarjuna crtiqued rangtong - if an object is empty of self then how is there anything to be empty of self
You are not wrong precisely to say mind emanates from neurons. But unless you entertain that idea you will miss out on some powerful teachings that can unlock your mind. If you can show me that you can establish existence without premises then I will concede that you should not follow buddhism because buddhism is a logical contradiction.
A thought is not what we think it is. It can be deconstructed just as a snowman is not 3 snowballs a carrot and coal.
Thoughts are non-self. They come from nowhere and go nowhere. They never make it into existence. And yet they are there.
You may disagree with me but I think you should read a basic discussion of emptiness by HHDL before you decide. Then start meditation.
Is it dogma that a car must have an engine? Actually yes haha haha so you are right too. You are a buddha.
The six realms can be regarded as psychological or physical. If they are regarded as psychological, then they are logical.
The human realm is one of reflectiveness & ethics; the god realm is one of bliss, power or compassion; the hungry ghost realm is one of greed or addiction; the hell realm is one of suffering, despair, anger, etc; the animal realm is one of ignorance & instinctual reactiveness; and the titan realm is one of fear.
If you wish your Buddhism to be logical and well thought out, then try thinking as I have suggested.
Also, you can try reading question 47 at the following link:
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books5/Buddhadassa_Bhikkhu_Buddha_Dhamma_for_University_Students.pdf
Regards
Absolutely, DD. Thinking about the existence of other realms somewhere, other lives and the results of kamma, is all just pointless speculation. Dhamma practice is about present moment awareness in the here and now.
Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives, by Jim Tucker, MD
The author examines follow-up investigations done to confirm or deny what young children said about their past lives (visiting the neighborhood where they said they'd lived, talking to relatives they described, etc.), then he presents possible alternative explanations (if any), and examines those as well. Interesting book
"What are called all dharmas are, in fact, not all dharmas. That is why they are called all dharmas."
Doh!!!!
I really liked your description of the 6 karmic realms. Thumbs up
I think when I said thoughts come from nowhere and go nowhere it is a recognitions of the interconnectedness. You can't pinpoint any certain cause. This can be thought of as all phenominon have multiple causes. But go further and no phenominon is an entity to itself.
This is a better explanation of my statement come from nowhere and go to nowhere. Nonetheless it is also a meditative awareness experience.
Perhaps our thoughts and beliefs follow our actions and experience, not the other way around. Perhaps believing oneself or belief is "Buddhist" is actually believing in a duality, because the only alternative the word implies is "non-Buddhist".
In my opinion, this practice is inherently counter to belief systems. It makes sense, considering that through experience, I have felt the suffering that comes from belief systems.