Skillful blame?

buddhajunkie

I've learned that gratitude is one way to help dissolve the self, since it is an acknowledgment that many of one's good traits are merely the product of fortunate causes and conditions.

So I was wondering if something similar works for one's BAD traits -- is it skillful to reflect upon the fact that our undesirable traits are simply the product of unfortunate causes and conditions? Do we go as far as to "blame" our parents, teachers, peers, school system, genes, etc., for causing us to be overweight/unsuccessful, etc?

If so, how could we do this without cultivating ill will, self-pity or passivity in one's life?

Deformed

We cannot blame people and institutions any more than we can blame the earth, the sun and the universe.

Roger

I don't blame them. I just would tell them what was happening to me (AFAIK) and explain what they might have missed and what they might have done differently.

I used to review events and passages in my life and imagine myself doing the right things at the right time in order to have been the best parent (teacher, friend, mentor) I could have ever had.

Rmurray1985

That's where a lot of easterners fall buddhajunkie... They develop such apathy.. "Oh well, it's just my karma"

I'm really not sure how to address your question... Maybe reflection on impermanence would be beneficial?

Bodhgaya

You can't so much blame them.
But maybe you could.

It really is what situations you've encountered, and how you've seen others, and yourself, handle such things. So I guess it's both, or maybe not.

Cultivate compassion because, hey, it could be you doing that. But you, fortunately, were not dealt the hand they were, and they're trying to be as happy as they can, whether doing wholesome or unwholsome things, and they can't be blamed for that. As well, for people who haven't found the path, they are even more deluded than you, you could say. So offer them help if they need it, but don't try and change them unless they want. They just want to live.

IronRabbit

buddhajunkie - sticking with gratitude for one's bad traits and/or those individuals in one's past that may have influenced such traits directly or indirectly seems most plausible. Such so called impediments are "gifts", though they may not seem so, that if employed skillfully, may be aids in advancing on a spiritual path. Consider that to hold others responsible for such traits signifies that the self or egoic mind has suffered an insult or mistreatment. Acknowledging this is one thing. Holding it is another - resulting in fortifying the "story" one maintains about "self" - which is just that - a "story". Cultivating compassion allows one to recognize the shared traits of all beings and identify with weaknesses that cause suffering. Compassion for self is equally important since so much ignorance must be overcome to see clearly through appearances.

federica

(. . .)

is it skillful to reflect upon the fact that our undesirable traits are simply the product of unfortunate causes and conditions?

No, because they're not. They are as a result of conditioning, learning and above all, the choices we make.

Do we go as far as to "blame" our parents, teachers, peers, school system, genes, etc., for causing us to be overweight/unsuccessful, etc?

Of course not, never.
What we are, is a product of circumstance.
Who we are is a product of our own making.
Kamma is self-wrought.

"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'...

"[This is a fact that] one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained..."

If so, how could we do this without cultivating ill will, self-pity or passivity in one's life?

You focus entirely on your choices, decisions and the consequences you have brought about through these.
Nobody else is responsible for who you are, but you.
So if you really feel blame is to be apportioned - take a look at 'the man in the mirror'.
Therein lies your culprit.

robot

For many people the "man in the mirror" is the object of loathing. Their self blame is crippling. They cannot move ahead because they feel that they can only fail. Often it is the result of traumatic abuse or neglect as a child. Or even simply inadequate nurturing. Of course this is a result of inherited Kamma. That doesn't change the fact that other people were involved in the resulting damaged being in the mirror. For someone who has not suffered from this type of experience in life in may be difficult to understand the type of process that might be involved to rise above it. During that process it is not uncommon to arrive a point when one cannot deny that they have been mistreated. At that point the blame needs to be laid at the feet of the abuser. Not necessarily in real life,(unless charges need to be laid), but in ones own mind. From there one can begin to understand the nature of the defiled emotion that they must contend with. It is a step in the path toward accepting with gratitude the circumstances that lead toward realization. For many people, to confront the man in the mirror directly as the sole creator of his misfortune is simply not going to make the problem go away. This opinion comes from my own experience.

federica

For many people the "man in the mirror" is the object of loathing. Their self blame is crippling. They cannot move ahead because they feel that they can only fail. Often it is the result of traumatic abuse or neglect as a child.

This is a different matter entirely, and should be addressed by professional therapists and counsellors. I was not aware that we were discussing such a deeply-felt traumatic situation....?
I don't think the OP was reflecting on such severe cases, and as such, neither was I.
My comments - in light of the OP's general tone in the first post - still stands as relevant and on-topic.

(. . .) That doesn't change the fact that other people were involved in the resulting damaged being in the mirror. For someone who has not suffered from this type of experience in life in may be difficult to understand the type of process that might be involved to rise above it.

One cannot 'rise above it', without professional help.
I was offered professional help, but in the end, I was the primary orchestrator of my own personal healing process. But again, this is not, I believe, what was being referred to in the original query, and as such, I didn't even think about it....

During that process it is not uncommon to arrive a point when one cannot deny that they have been mistreated. At that point the blame needs to be laid at the feet of the abuser.

Whilst others may well be to blame for the perpetration of such damaging treatment, each person ultimately must take responsibility for themselves and their own healing.

(. . .)For many people, to confront the man in the mirror directly as the sole creator of his misfortune is simply not going to make the problem go away. This opinion comes from my own experience.

The problem never goes away.
You merely cease to be attached to it.
as this thread outlines very succinctly.

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/8588/i-didn-t.-it-s-still-there./#Item_5

Spaceless

Indeed, should be addressed by professional therapists and counsellors. Both good and bad traits on the above mentioned may more or less explicitly and implicitly moving along the path of ("man in the mirror" is the object of loathing. Their self blame is crippling). Unless, Buddhism meditation is worth their consideration other wise, they would end up man in the mirror is Buddhism instead

genkaku

When something is correct, repeat it.
When something is wrong, correct it.

Don't elevate or demean anything.

Ficus_religiosa

I think that social inheritance has been proven beyond questioning.. If you grow up surrounded by bad habits, chances are youll take them over.. Its the same mechanism as raising kids - no one would argue that parents teach their children the do's and dont's would they? Environment and genes decide who and what you are

Jeffrey

Drive all blames into one:

(Lojong 7 point mind training slogan. Explanation by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche)

A lot of people seem to get through this world and actually make quite a comfortable life by being compassionate and open - even seemingly compassionate and open. Yet although we share the same world, we ourselves get hit constantly... For instance, we could be sharing a room with a college mate, eating the same problematic food, sharing the same shitty house, having the same schedule and the same teachers. Our roommate manages to handle everything OK and find his or her freedom. We, on the other hand, are stuck with that memory and filled with resentment all the time. We would like to be revolutionary, to blow up the world. We could say the schoolteacher did it, that everybody hates us and they did it. But WHY do they hate us? That is a very interesting point.
...
Everything is based on our own uptightness. We could blame the organization; we could blame the government; we could blame the food; we could blame the highways; we could blame out own motorcars, out own clothes; we could blame an infinite variety of things. But it is we who are not letting go, not developing enough warmth and sympathy - which makes us problematic. So we cannot blame anybody...This slogan applies whenever we complain about anything, even that our coffee is cold or our bathroom is dirty. It goes very far. Everything is due to our own uptightness, so to speak, which is known as ego holding, ego fixation. Since we are so uptight about ourselves, that makes us very vulnerable at the same time... We get hit, but nobody means to hit us - we are actually inviting the bullets.
...
The text says "drive all blames into one". the reason you have to do that is because you have been cherishing yourself so much... Although sometimes you might say that you don't like yourself, even then in your heart of hearts you know that you like yourself so much that you're willing to throw everybody else down the drain, down the gutter. You are really willing to do that. You are really willing to let somebody else sacrifice his life, give himself away for you. And who are you, anyway?

From Training the Mind & Cultivating Loving-Kindness by Chogyam Trungpa , copyright 1993 by Diana Mukpo.
(Official Chogyam Trungpa Website)

buddhajunkie

@federica, robot


If we are the product of our choices, and our choices alone, then why should one be grateful to other people for the good things in our life? What stops successful people's egos from blowing up because they take all credit for the fortunate circumstances?

Also, when discussing "the man in the mirror" and the self as "object of loathing" we don't have to be talking about clinically depressed people. Normal people engage in negative self-concepts all the time: "Gosh I'm such a slob" or "Why am I always so hurting for money?" etc.

Of course, I'm not sure what builds the concept of self more, blaming other people or blaming yourself.

compassionate_warrior

I think that social inheritance has been proven beyond questioning.. If you grow up surrounded by bad habits, chances are youll take them over.. Its the same mechanism as raising kids - no one would argue that parents teach their children the do's and dont's would they? Environment and genes decide who and what you are

Environment, genes, and past life experience, IMHO.

federica

If we are the product of our choices, and our choices alone, then why should one be grateful to other people for the good things in our life?

If you are grateful, that is your choice, and if you are not, that's also your choice.
Do you think generous people should be shown gratitude?
Why?

What stops successful people's egos from blowing up because they take all credit for the fortunate circumstances?

Are they Buddhist or not?
Please clarify....

Also, when discussing "the man in the mirror" and the self as "object of loathing" we don't have to be talking about clinically depressed people.

Precisely.
I wasn't.

Normal people engage in negative self-concepts all the time: "Gosh I'm such a slob" or "Why am I always so hurting for money?" etc.

This was more my point.

Of course, I'm not sure what builds the concept of self more, blaming other people or blaming yourself.

I told you. It's not a question of apportioning blame, it's a question of taking responsibility.

Nobody

Only to add to some already very good responses:

Pema Chodron refers to "blame" as an "exit" from unwanted or uncomfortable situations. It is also a "barrier" that we fortify with our own concepts of right and wrong.

Blame is a "very common, ancient, well-perfected device for feeling better."

To address the title of this thread, I take it that in the proper practice of Buddhism as it is taught by the most skilled teachers, it is not possible to "skillfully blame."

compassionate_warrior

That's my understanding, Nobody.

buddhajunkie

If we are the product of our choices, and our choices alone, then why should one be grateful to other people for the good things in our life?

If you are grateful, that is your choice, and if you are not, that's also your choice.
Do you think generous people should be shown gratitude?
Why?

I'm not concerned about showing gratitude. I'm interested in feeling gratitude, or doing gratitude meditation, as a means to weaken the concept of self.

What stops successful people's egos from blowing up because they take all credit for the fortunate circumstances?

Are they Buddhist or not?
Please clarify....

I'm speaking from the point of view of a Buddhist practitioner.

Of course, I'm not sure what builds the concept of self more, blaming other people or blaming yourself.

I told you. It's not a question of apportioning blame, it's a question of taking responsibility.

I guess I'm just looking for some theoretical symmetry. I've heard that gratitude is a way to weaken self with regards to fortunate circumstances. So, if this is true, I'm wondering what is used to weaken self with regards to unfortunate circumstances? If we use gratitude as a tool, can we also use the reverse of gratitude as a tool?

Perhaps there is no symetry.

Or perhaps Iron Rabbit's point applies, that one should be grateful for both fortune and misfortune. Those comments stuck with me because I wasn't sure what to make of that.

What do you think?

compassionate_warrior

Being grateful for misfortune as well as good fortune sounds very Buddhistic. It's like HHDL often says; our enemies are our teachers. So that's gratitude right there--we're grateful for the opportunity to learn from our enemies, learn about ourselves and our weaknesses, and for the opportunity to practice compassion even toward our enemies. So I think Iron Rabbit is on the right track.

caz

I've learned that gratitude is one way to help dissolve the self, since it is an acknowledgment that many of one's good traits are merely the product of fortunate causes and conditions.

So I was wondering if something similar works for one's BAD traits -- is it skillful to reflect upon the fact that our undesirable traits are simply the product of unfortunate causes and conditions? Do we go as far as to "blame" our parents, teachers, peers, school system, genes, etc., for causing us to be overweight/unsuccessful, etc?

If so, how could we do this without cultivating ill will, self-pity or passivity in one's life?

Never blame others they arent a cause of any problems, If you examine carefully you will see the problem arises from the side of your mind and that it is a mere imputation upon the perceived, same again and you will see that these unfortunate situations are a result of negative karma, and with futher examination see that such karma is a result of unskillful actions causes by self cherishing and self grasping Ignorance. So If you want to be skillful in placing
blame make sure you place it right at the feet of the real problem which is this self cherishing/grasping we experience REAL happiness and an end to problems will only come by removing these two obstructions.

Cloud

Hear, hear!

buddhajunkie

Never blame others they arent a cause of any problems, If you examine carefully you will see the problem arises from the side of your mind and that it is a mere imputation upon the perceived, same again and you will see that these unfortunate situations are a result of negative karma, and with futher examination see that such karma is a result of unskillful actions causes by self cherishing and self grasping Ignorance. So If you want to be skillful in placing
blame make sure you place it right at the feet of the real problem which is this self cherishing/grasping we experience REAL happiness and an end to problems will only come by removing these two obstructions.

So does this mean we should never be grateful to other people since, upon careful examination, good things are really just a result of our good imputation, positive karma and skillful action?

Simonthepilgrim

@buddhajunkie,

What you see as 'symmetry' is not. Blame is not a counter-weight to gratefulness. Blame relies on judging whereas gratefulness does not judge.

HHDL writes:"To nurture gratefulness in our hearts is to nurture a positive mind. And a positive mind is something that ultimately brings us benefit or happiness."
from "Foreword by His Holiness the Dalai Lama" to Deeper than Words by Brother David Steindl-Rast (2010. Image Books)

When you set me thinking about this notion of blame, I realised that I experience no blame when my mind is grateful. There may be some sadness and an awareness that my mind is still learning to rest in positive gratitude.

If, as I suspect, a blaming mind leads us away from the eightfold dance, our study and meditation practice, together with our positive actions are the tools which help us turn away from such fantasies.

Spock

Gotta agree with Simon

Blame is something that we perceive. Life is far more positive if we look to be compassionate.

Of course, the behaviours of others often results in negative circumstances for ourselves. Blaming them never has positive results though. I experienced a particularly negative period in my life in which I found myself in a situation which I did not have the experience to cope with. I was not supported by my boss because he did not have the insight or management skills to do so.

For a while, I was angry and blamed him for my situation. However, by taking full responsibility for my own actions and understanding that the boss wasn't a bad guy (just a bad manager) I became much happier. Developing a skilful mind is key

caz

Never blame others they arent a cause of any problems, If you examine carefully you will see the problem arises from the side of your mind and that it is a mere imputation upon the perceived, same again and you will see that these unfortunate situations are a result of negative karma, and with futher examination see that such karma is a result of unskillful actions causes by self cherishing and self grasping Ignorance. So If you want to be skillful in placing
blame make sure you place it right at the feet of the real problem which is this self cherishing/grasping we experience REAL happiness and an end to problems will only come by removing these two obstructions.

So does this mean we should never be grateful to other people since, upon careful examination, good things are really just a result of our good imputation, positive karma and skillful action?

Certainly not ! that is not skillful since our own happiness depends upon causes and conditions It is very unwise to create the causes for benifactors to cease theyre good deeds by being ungrateful.

compassionate_warrior

"Never blame others, they aren't the cause of any problems".

Institutionalized racism preventing people from acquiring a university education, preventing them from living in a safe neighborhood, from getting a good job; the dominant society is not to blame for limitations imposed upon the marginalized? Who is (or was: speaking historically) responsible (i.e. "to blame") for extrajudicial lynchings? Nobody?

Someone said, "It's not a question of apportioning blame, it's a question of taking responsibility". How does that work in the lynching example?

aHappyNihilist

i feel that blame assumes that human beings are better in control than they really are. what are we but a combination of particles, influenced just like any other particles? you should reflect on that, but not lay specific blame, it seems to be just asking for anger and aversion.

Dakini

Sometimes human beings are very much in control. Hitler & company were a combination of particles. Should those particular particle combinations not be expected to take responsibility for their actions and policies? If we're going to talk "responsibility", then let's. Blame may not be spiritually productive for the victim, but society needs to hold perpetrators responsible. Otherwise we end up with chaos and lawlessness, i.e. suffering increased exponentially.

twilly

"Never blame others, they aren't the cause of any problems".

Institutionalized racism preventing people from acquiring a university education, preventing them from living in a safe neighborhood, from getting a good job; the dominant society is not to blame for limitations imposed upon the marginalized? Who is (or was: speaking historically) responsible (i.e. "to blame") for extrajudicial lynchings? Nobody?

Someone said, "It's not a question of apportioning blame, it's a question of taking responsibility". How does that work in the lynching example?

I think you are right that if we choose to apportion blame, then people complicit in the situations you mentioned are to blame.

However, having suffered a fair bit of abuse from parents and ex-spouse, and now finding much to my dismay that my children would like to continue in the way of their father, the answer is to let it go. My parents are gone, and I have no contact with my ex, but if I move toward enlightenment, I benefit and perhaps my children will too. I must let go of the blame if I want to move on. It seems to me that mindfulness is involved here. Mindfulness has no dealings with the past where blame lies. And I agree that wanting to cling to blaming is clinging to self, a self for which life will always be unsatisfactory.

Dakini

I'm glad you brought up this example, twilly. I was going to bring it up, but it's much more compelling to hear from someone who has suffered as you have, and then managed to rise above it. Unfortunately, not all manage; abuse can emotionally/mentally cripple people. Not everyone makes it to therapy, or Buddhism. Family abuse is a difficult topic. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

Dhammaduta

I think a skillful blame is a wise blame. only wise and certain kind of personality can do that. so who is that person? the person who lives within dhamma, abides dhamma, learns and teaches dhamma. By those practice one become a kalyanamitta, a wholesome friend, a spiritual friend,

thats why Buddha said, " regards him as treasure pointer, who blames you for your wrong actions..: