Are you a vegetarian?

footiam

Should buddhists become vegetarians? I understand that Theravada monks do take meat but Mahayana monks do not. Over here, Mahayana temples are very strict about food in their premises - It must be purely vegetarian. Would that in anyway, put you off?

SherabDorje

If you do a search you will find there are plenty of threads on Buddhism and vegetarianism. Some of them go on at great length.

And I just ate a whole supreme pizza while watching pro football (American pro football).

Jason

It certainly wouldn't put me off, although I don't think one has to be vegetarian. Generally speaking, I'd say that vegetarianism is a more compassionate option that's in line with the Buddha's teachings on ahimsa or harmlessness, but the Buddha himself rejected Devadatta's demand to institute vegetarianism as a requirement. If you're interested, you can find some of my thoughts about this topic here and here. (But the short version is, more important than what you eat is how you eat.)

jinzang

The Lamp of Reasoning and Scriptures is an online book by my teacher explaining why Buddhists should be vegetarian

http://www.gampopacenter.com/teachings/lamp-of-reasoning/index.html

footiam

If you do a search you will find there are plenty of threads on Buddhism and vegetarianism. Some of them go on at great length.

blockquote>

Thanks, SherabDorje. Will look that up.

footiam

It certainly would out me off, although I don't think one has to be vegetarian. Generally speaking, I'd say that vegetarianism is a more compassionate option that's in line with the Buddha's teachings on ahimsa or harmlessness, but the Buddha himself rejected Devadatta's demand to institute vegetarianism as a requirement. If you're interested, you can find some of my thoughts about this topic here and here. (But the short version is, more important than what you eat is how you eat.)

Thanks, Jason. I didn't know this bit about Buddha and Devadatta. It's great to know.

footiam

The Lamp of Reasoning and Scriptures is an online book by my teacher explaining why Buddhists should be vegetarian

http://www.gampopacenter.com/teachings/lamp-of-reasoning/index.html

Haven't heard of 'The Lamp of Reasoning and Scriptures' .Thanks for the link.

PietroPumokin

buddha rejected devadatta's vegetarianism probably cause of the nature and structure of the sangha then and the authoritarian like policy that it may have implied, but i think serving meatless meals at monasteries is good.

compassionate_warrior

Should buddhists become vegetarians? I understand that Theravada monks do take meat but Mahayana monks do not. Over here, Mahayana temples are very strict about food in their premises - It must be purely vegetarian. Would that in anyway, put you off?

Where is "over here"? Tibetans and Mongols eat meat. There aren't (or weren't before the Chinese) many alternatives on the Tibetan Plateau, and Mongols don't know how to farm. They're herders, hence, meat-eaters. In India maybe some Tibetans have switched to a vegetarian diet, but from what I've heard, plenty of lamas still eat meat, as do lay Tibetans.

Jason

Where is "over here"? Tibetans and Mongols eat meat. There aren't (or weren't before the Chinese) many alternatives on the Tibetan Plateau, and Mongols don't know how to farm. They're herders, hence, meat-eaters. In India maybe some Tibetans have switched to a vegetarian diet, but from what I've heard, plenty of lamas still eat meat, as do lay Tibetans.

I'm not sure where footiam is from, but the vast majority of Chinese, Taiwanese and Vietnamese monks and nuns I've known are strict vegetarians.

compassionate_warrior

Lots of veggies in the southern latitudes, and lots of protein-rich meat alternatives: tofu, taro root in Taiwan, from which they make fake-meat dishes.

FoibleFull

Should buddhists become vegetarians? I understand that Theravada monks do take meat but Mahayana monks do not. Over here, Mahayana temples are very strict about food in their premises - It must be purely vegetarian. Would that in anyway, put you off?

Some Mayahana monks eat meat, at least in the Tibetan tradition ... my teacher (a monk since age 12, in the Dalai Lama's monastery) eats meat.

footiam

buddha rejected devadatta's vegetarianism probably cause of the nature and structure of the sangha then and the authoritarian like policy that it may have implied, but i think serving meatless meals at monasteries is good.

I wonder if there is an instance when Buddha favours vegetarianism.

footiam

Where is "over here"? Tibetans and Mongols eat meat. There aren't (or weren't before the Chinese) many alternatives on the Tibetan Plateau, and Mongols don't know how to farm. They're herders, hence, meat-eaters. In India maybe some Tibetans have switched to a vegetarian diet, but from what I've heard, plenty of lamas still eat meat, as do lay Tibetans.

You are right. Over here, means Chinese and the one I am talking about is in Malaysia. I suppose temples run by Chinese in Taiwan and China should be as strict. Didn't know nothing about the Mongols though. Thanks for this piece of information.

footiam

I am from Malaysia and you are right about the Chinese monks.I suppose the Vietnamese monks are influenced by them but I really don't know about the Vietnamese monks. Thanks for filling me in.

compassionate_warrior

All the Tibetans I know in the US love meat.

footiam

Lots of veggies in the southern latitudes, and lots of protein-rich meat alternatives: tofu, taro root in Taiwan, from which they make fake-meat dishes.

There are fake-meat dishes here. Some do look like the real thing and are tasty too. A friend of mine once asked the motive of creating these dishes. If you want to give up meat, then why make fake meat. I thought that was funny.

footiam

Some Mayahana monks eat meat, at least in the Tibetan tradition ... my teacher (a monk since age 12, in the Dalai Lama's monastery) eats meat.

There are Tibetan monks in the country especially the city but I don't remember seeing them here when I was a child. Even when they are around now, I don't really know much about them except that they dress differently. And I wonder if they are categorised under Mahayana or they have a special category of their own.

footiam

All the Tibetans I know in the US love meat.

I suppose they should be the same elsewhere. In that case, being a vegetarian should be just an option.

MindGate

I -CAN'T- be vegetarian.

The high school offers only meat related food, unless you just want to eat 'lettuce on bread.' Sounds scrumptious, eh? So that means I should bring my own lunch, right? Well, how about I eat an apple and a peanut butter and jelly sammich?

"The farmer has to spray his crop with insecticides and poisons so that the vegetables arrive on your dinner plates without holes in them, [thus, animals are still dying in the process]. And once again, animals have been killed to provide the leather for your belt or handbag, oil for the soap you use and a thousand other products as well. It is impossible to live without, in some way, being indirectly responsible for the death of some other beings, and this is just another example of the First Noble Truth, ordinary existence is suffering and unsatisfactory."

footiam

I -CAN'T- be vegetarian.

The high school offers only meat related food, unless you just want to eat 'lettuce on bread.' Sounds scrumptious, eh? So that means I should bring my own lunch, right? Well, how about I eat an apple and a peanut butter and jelly sammich?

"The farmer has to spray his crop with insecticides and poisons so that the vegetables arrive on your dinner plates without holes in them, [thus, animals are still dying in the process]. And once again, animals have been killed to provide the leather for your belt or handbag, oil for the soap you use and a thousand other products as well. It is impossible to live without, in some way, being indirectly responsible for the death of some other beings, and this is just another example of the First Noble Truth, ordinary existence is suffering and unsatisfactory."

Eatting lettuce on bead would not be a good idea. Vegetarian diet would have to include some beans and nuts to be balanced or else you are going to end up sick. Soap, I think need notbe animal based but now, I wonder if Buddha used soap.

compassionate_warrior

Nothing wrong w/PB&J, and apple, MindGate. You can cook tofu dishes at home, and take them to school. There's a whole world of vegetarian cooking to explore; veggie enchiladas, veggie Chinese dumplings, rich veggie and bean/rice soups; beans, rice, cheese and corn tortillas are a great meal. Get adventurous, MG--you'll have fun.

Footiam: I've had those fake-meat dishes in Taiwan. They're delish! "Why make fake meat dishes if you're trying to give up meat?" That is funny. Those dishes are great whether one is vegetarian or not.

TB is Mahayana, technically, but a separate branch called Vajrayana. If you want to know more, start a thread for that. I'd enjoy that, too.

MindGate

I can't control what I eat at this age. I must eat what ever is put in front of me, I shouldn't pick and choose, so as of now, I have to eat meat.

compassionate_warrior

Maybe your parents could be persuaded to let you explore? Maybe once a week they'll buy the groceries you request, to make lunches for yourself? In the meantime, you can look forward to when you're on your own or in college. (Dorms have kitchens for student use.) And also in the meantime, you can start reading about nutrition and vegetarianism; that's what I did when I was a teen. I researched proper nutrition to death, to make sure that when I went vegetarian, I'd be getting all the nutrients I needed. And I read "Diet For A Small Planet", about the politics of meat-eating. The book also has recipes, BTW.

footiam

Footiam: I've had those fake-meat dishes in Taiwan. They're delish! "Why make fake meat dishes if you're trying to give up meat?" That is funny. Those dishes are great whether one is vegetarian or not.

TB is Mahayana, technically, but a separate branch called Vajrayana. If you want to know more, start a thread for that. I'd enjoy that, too.

When my friend asked about the reason why one take the fake meat dishes, she was wondering about why go for the fake thing when there is the real thing.
It would be interesting to know more about Vajrayana and to start a thread for that but I think I have to go slowly. One thread at a time. Would enjoy any serious or not so serious discussion with you!

footiam

I can't control what I eat at this age. I must eat what ever is put in front of me, I shouldn't pick and choose, so as of now, I have to eat meat.

I suppose you should. Waste not want not and don't be so picky and choosy. Just picture yourself a monk and take whatever is put into your bowl.

footiam

Maybe your parents could be persuaded to let you explore? Maybe once a week they'll buy the groceries you request, to make lunches for yourself? In the meantime, you can look forward to when you're on your own or in college. (Dorms have kitchens for student use.) And also in the meantime, you can start reading about nutrition and vegetarianism; that's what I did when I was a teen. I researched proper nutrition to death, to make sure that when I went vegetarian, I'd be getting all the nutrients I needed. And I read "Diet For A Small Planet", about the politics of meat-eating.

You are a vegetarian? In that case, I wonder if it gives you any problem when you go to work or go traveling.

Good advice for teens there!

compassionate_warrior

"When I go to work"? I make my own lunches, of course. Don't most people take their own lunch to work? I know few people who can afford to buy lunch. (OK, "most people" in developed countries, where eating out is expensive. )

I tend to be flexible when I'm travelling, or when I'm a guest at someone else's dinnertable. It's not something I cling to. I went vegetarian for health reasons, not on spiritual principle.

Your friend apparently was unaware that there's a big demand for tasty vegetarian dishes in many parts of Asia.

SherabDorje beat us to it and already started a Vajrayana thread, posting a link with a Wikipedia page. Amazing stuff.

footiam

Compassionate-warrior. It's different here. The majority do not pack lunches to work.
It's good to be flexible. As a matter of fact, I just read about different types of vegetarianism from the link given by jinzang- There are things like half vegetarian, full vegetarian, full and strict vegetarian diet. In your case, I suppose it is half vegetarian.
I think my friend is aware since there are vegetarian restaurants in the country; just that she doesn't know about Buddhism.
Anyway, it does not matter if SherabDorje has started a Vajrayana thread. We can also go in and give a 'piece of our mind' or in any case, start one even though some people may not like it. Meanwhile, let's talk about what comes into our mind!

compassionate_warrior

Yeah, I realized it was different in much of Asia.
OK, it's your thread, so I guess it doesn't matter if we take it off subject.

PietroPumokin

buddha rejected devadatta's vegetarianism probably cause of the nature and structure of the sangha then and the authoritarian like policy that it may have implied, but i think serving meatless meals at monasteries is good.

I wonder if there is an instance when Buddha favours vegetarianism.

Guatama definitely favored vegetarianism, it is just one of those moral issues that cannot be put into formal prohibitions. technically, eating meat can contribute to the violation of the first precept indirectly, which is why it creates confusion as a moral dilemma, while at the same time being a fairly situational one. like what's already been mentioned, geography and environment as well as economy

i would say in terms of vegetarianism, make the decision that is most harmonious.

compassionate_warrior

Ah, yes, the first precept. Good point, I keep forgetting. But the Tibetans and Mongols don't seem worried on that score. But you're right; conscientious Westerners (and Easterners) would do right to be vegetarian when possible.

footiam

Yeah, I realized it was different in much of Asia.
OK, it's your thread, so I guess it doesn't matter if we take it off subject.

I just check out the Vayjarana thread. There are just links there. No question posed.

compassionate_warrior

I just check out the Vayjarana thread. There are just links there. No question posed.

I saw that. I don't know what to do about it. Do you have a question, to kick this off?

footiam

buddha rejected devadatta's vegetarianism probably cause of the nature and structure of the sangha then and the authoritarian like policy that it may have implied, but i think serving meatless meals at monasteries is good.

I wonder if there is an instance when Buddha favours vegetarianism.

Guatama definitely favored vegetarianism, it is just one of those moral issues that cannot be put into formal prohibitions. technically, eating meat can contribute to the violation of the first precept indirectly, which is why it creates confusion as a moral dilemma, while at the same time being a fairly situational one. like what's already been mentioned, geography and environment as well as economy

i would say in terms of vegetarianism, make the decision that is most harmonious.

I think that's why I have heard people say that it is all right to eat meat as long as it is 'dead meat' and you do not kill the beast or order its killing.

Mountains

Are you a vegetarian?

No, but after the meal I just ate, I think I'm convinced. Bleh....

footiam

Ah, yes, the first precept. Good point, I keep forgetting. But the Tibetans and Mongols don't seem worried on that score. But you're right; conscientious Westerners (and Easterners) would do right to be vegetarian when possible.

I heard in Tibetans, it is the Muslims who sell meat and the Tibetans are the consumers. Wonder if it true. In a case like this, the consumers do not break the first precept, not directly at least.

compassionate_warrior

Guatama definitely favored vegetarianism, it is just one of those moral issues that cannot be put into formal prohibitions. technically, eating meat can contribute to the violation of the first precept indirectly, which is why it creates confusion as a moral dilemma, while at the same time being a fairly situational one. like what's already been mentioned, geography and environment as well as economy

i would say in terms of vegetarianism, make the decision that is most harmonious.

I think that's why I have heard people say that it is all right to eat meat as long as it is 'dead meat' and you do not kill the beast or order its killing.


Well, if you're going to drag the 1st precept into it, I'd say that it makes no difference who kills the animal for the meat. Because even if you have low-caste people (or whoever) kill the meat for you, it's the demand for the meat on the part of the meat-eaters that results in animals being killed. I was told by a TB professor that in the old days, Tibetans only ate meat from animals already dead, sort of like "road kill" these days. But honestly, that was so long ago, I don't remember clearly. At any rate, to stick intermediaries with the karma so you can pretend you're karmically "clean" seems a little disingenuous.

SherabDorje

I just check out the Vayjarana thread. There are just links there. No question posed.

I just thought a little background reading would be helpful first. It's hard to approach Vajrayana by just asking "What is Vajrayana?".

I can't speak for Pietro, except to say that I thought he had changed his ways, but apparently he hasn't.

compassionate_warrior

Right. He surprised me by being remarkably eloquent on my thread, but...now he's back to his old tricks.

Yes, I thought your link was very helpful. There's a lot there to digest. I'm still working on it.

footiam

I just check out the Vayjarana thread. There are just links there. No question posed.

I saw that. I don't know what to do about it. Do you have a question, to kick this off?

None at the moment. But the link should be useful for interested parties. Let's not worry about that!

footiam

Are you a vegetarian?

No, but after the meal I just ate, I think I'm convinced. Bleh....

After the meal, everything looks the same?

compassionate_warrior

My understanding of Vajrayana is that it's Mahayana with Hindu tantra added on. That tantra can get a bit wild and wooly.

footiam

Well, if you're going to drag the 1st precept into it, I'd say that it makes no difference who kills the animal for the meat. Because even if you have low-caste people (or whoever) kill the meat for you, it's the demand for the meat on the part of the meat-eaters that results in animals being killed. I was told by a TB professor that in the old days, Tibetans only ate meat from animals already dead, sort of like "road kill" these days. But honestly, that was so long ago, I don't remember clearly. At any rate, to stick intermediaries with the karma so you can pretend you're karmically "clean" seems a little disingenuous.

I haven't heard that of the Tibetans but on the light side, most of the animals we eat are already dead. I would think too that putting intermediaries do make the whole thing rather unclean.

footiam

I just check out the Vayjarana thread. There are just links there. No question posed.

I just thought a little background reading would be helpful first. It's hard to approach Vajrayana by just asking "What is Vajrayana?".

I can't speak for Pietro, except to say that I thought he had changed his ways, but apparently he hasn't.

I do agree with you that it's hard to approach Vajrayana. It's thoughtful to provide the link as a background.

compassionate_warrior

I meant they only ate animals that had fallen off cliffs, or had been killed by other animals. So no human had to kill them, "nature" provided the meat. Guilt-free. But I imagine meat, under such circumstances, would be a rare delicacy. I suspect that the elite ate meat more regularly, and paid for it.

footiam

I meant they only ate animals that had fallen off cliffs, or had been killed by other animals. So no human had to kill them, "nature" provided the meat. Guilt-free. But I imagine meat, under such circumstances, would be a rare delicacy. I suspect that the elite ate meat more regularly, and paid for it.

Now, I am wondering if Tibetans worry so much about being vegetarians at all. The place look so devoid of life that it would be fortunate to have something to eat at allt. Now, I am not familiar with the geography of that country but if you tell me that it's hard to cultivate crops there, I would believe, what with it being so high up there and probably cold too. Same thing with animals - I would believe if you say that there are not many. Now, what the hell do they eat!

MindGate

Just picture yourself a monk and take whatever is put into your bowl.

I liked that analogy.

compassionate_warrior

There are lots of different antelope-type animals, some of which are now endangered. And snow leopards, also endangered. Probably lots of small game. They eat grasses and other green plants. But it's challenging. And yes, my impression was that they don't worry much about being vegetarian. I heard that some went vegetarian after arriving in India, but most still eat meat, and those I know in the West eat meat.

Barley grows at that altitude, and I think the Chinese introduced some vegetables and other grains. Actually, the geography can be fairly varied, with some sub-tropical areas at lower altitudes.

footiam

Just picture yourself a monk and take whatever is put into your bowl.

I liked that analogy.

I am glad you like it. I would like to say, why worry so much about your food when they are there on your table. You may have nothing to eat. Then you'd see stars and think you've attain nirvana!

footiam

There are lots of different antelope-type animals, some of which are now endangered. And snow leopards, also endangered. Probably lots of small game. They eat grasses and other green plants. But it's challenging. And yes, my impression was that they don't worry much about being vegetarian. I heard that some went vegetarian after arriving in India, but most still eat meat, and those I know in the West eat meat.

Barley grows at that altitude, and I think the Chinese introduced some vegetables and other grains. Actually, the geography can be fairly varied, with some sub-tropical areas at lower altitudes.

That's a good lesson on Tibet. Thanks. We don't get to read that in geography books in school.
Maybe, we should not worry either unless of course, eating meat clogs our blood vessels!