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< Maybe, we should not worry either unless of course, eating meat clogs our blood vessels!
It depends on the meat. Wild game is famously low in fat. But Tibetan Medicine has an herbal remedy that scrubs the cardiovascular system clean of cholesterol. Padma 28, it's called. Popular in the German-speaking countries. Saves lives and limbs, literally. If everyone used that, coronary bypass surgery would become obsolete.
I've read that Tibetans tend to die early, due to cholesterol from drinking butter tea all their lives. Why they don't use Padma 28 themselves, I don't know.
< Maybe, we should not worry either unless of course, eating meat clogs our blood vessels!
It depends on the meat. Wild game is famously low in fat. But Tibetan Medicine has an herbal remedy that scrubs the cardiovascular system clean of cholesterol. Padma 28, it's called. Popular in the German-speaking countries. Saves lives and limbs, literally. If everyone used that, coronary bypass surgery would become obsolete.
< Maybe, we should not worry either unless of course, eating meat clogs our blood vessels!
It depends on the meat. Wild game is famously low in fat. But Tibetan Medicine has an herbal remedy that scrubs the cardiovascular system clean of cholesterol. Padma 28, it's called. Popular in the German-speaking countries. Saves lives and limbs, literally. If everyone used that, coronary bypass surgery would become obsolete.
I've read that Tibetans tend to die early, due to cholesterol from drinking butter tea all their lives. Why they don't use Padma 28 themselves, I don't know.
Should buddhists become vegetarians? I understand that Theravada monks do take meat but Mahayana monks do not. Over here, Mahayana temples are very strict about food in their premises - It must be purely vegetarian. Would that in anyway, put you off?
I'm a vego. I waited several years before making up my mind and stated my whim out loud to family and friends. Under those causes and conditions it was wrong for me to break my word, so I did it (ie become vego, not break my word ). I gave myself a year to acclimatise, during this time I did nothing, and the trigger point (being New Years Day) came along and I made the switch. It was easy. Before this I was a meat and potato man, I used to enjoy nice thick medium-rear slices of steak, now I can't really remember the taste.
I had a small piece of chicken on my plate yesterday that I thought was bread and as soon as I tasted it, it tasted foul (:)). I didn't get upset I just removed it (I have heard stories of some over reactions to situations like this). It was weird as I used to love chicken as well, in fact that was a major part of my diet.
I'm not trying to sell it, only that if your determined then its quite possible and it doesn't matter whether you presently like meat or not.
It does make a difference though, you can almost feel the merit accumulated by such an action, it does have a positive impact on meditation. The more you believe that its a positive step the more beneficial it will be for yourself.
Its you choice though and no one should judge you on what you decide.
Should buddhists become vegetarians? I understand that Theravada monks do take meat but Mahayana monks do not. Over here, Mahayana temples are very strict about food in their premises - It must be purely vegetarian. Would that in anyway, put you off?
I desire bacon, steak and country ham. This holiday was a challenge to my practice. I understand this desire. Meat is tasty. It does not put me off to see meat.
But when I look deeply, I see this desire as quite empty, and my disconnect from the slaughter fuels my desire to eat them. So I choose not to.
The things that go on in a modern day slaughterhouse, and the effect of such places, are some of the most morally repugnant things that human beings engage in. My conscience will not allow me to be affiliated with that activity. So yes.
I am not due to the fact I am a professional Chef, and what most diners want is meat/fish. I have to taste what I cook, so being a pure Veg is out of the question.
That being said, I have lowered my meat consumption outside of work to very low levels. There are many reasons for this beyond my desire to follow the Buddha's teaching: -Meat is not cheap. I can buy more veggies and grains for the money -Many meats I don't like the taste of and I won't eat fish for the most part(I can't hold fish down..it almost makes me throw up on the spot).
If I ever leave the cooking profession for good, I might turn almost strictly veggie.
I meant they only ate animals that had fallen off cliffs, or had been killed by other animals. So no human had to kill them, "nature" provided the meat. Guilt-free.
I don't really see what difference that makes. Why is it different if the gazelle is killed by another human or by a lion? The gazelle is still dead, and negative karma will have accumulated on the part of the being that killed it, regardless of whether it's a lion or a human being. As long as "I" didn't kill it, if I'm going to eat meat, it really makes no difference who killed it.
Falling off a cliff is one thing, or dying of old age or disease, or being hit by a bus, but killing is killing. I'm not advocating eating road kill, btw
I don't really see what difference that makes. Why is it different if the gazelle is killed by another human or by a lion? The gazelle is still dead, and negative karma will have accumulated on the part of the being that killed it, regardless of whether it's a lion or a human being. As long as "I" didn't kill it, if I'm going to eat meat, it really makes no difference who killed it.
Falling off a cliff is one thing, or dying of old age or disease, or being hit by a bus, but killing is killing. I'm not advocating eating road kill, btw
How do you see a lion suffering the effects of negative karma for killing its prey? The lion is hungry, not angry or full of hate for the prey. It is well known that predators are essential in keeping the herd healthy. There is a positive effect for many other creatures including the carrion eaters, vultures and such Does the lion have an illusory ego upon which negative karma can be imposed? Is this view upheld by any of the Buddhas teachings?
How do you see a lion suffering the effects of negative karma for killing its prey? The lion is hungry, not angry or full of hate for the prey. It is well known that predators are essential in keeping the herd healthy. There is a positive effect for many other creatures including the carrion eaters, vultures and such Does the lion have an illusory ego upon which negative karma can be imposed? Is this view upheld by any of the Buddhas teachings?
Thanks for the link, robot and I now wonder too if a lion has a mind likeus to worry over Karma.
And also in the meantime, you can start reading about nutrition and vegetarianism; that's what I did when I was a teen. I researched proper nutrition to death, to make sure that when I went vegetarian, I'd be getting all the nutrients I needed. And I read "Diet For A Small Planet", about the politics of meat-eating. The book also has recipes, BTW.
MindGate, I went vegetarian as soon as I left home to go to University, at 17. I did exactly what CW is saying; researched nutrition in the context of vegetarianism first, got some recipe books, and really noticed a difference in my feeling of well-being when I switched over. Now, being older, I can't eat vegetarian anymore, because of blood-sugar issues (too many carbs throws my balance off), but I hope to someday resolve that, and get back to a veggie diet, which I loved.
I can never be a "Vegetarian".... Its pure hypocrisy....
A non-vegetarian have to eat vegetables too. so, in a way, we are vegetarians to a certain extent. There is suppose to be half-vegetarian, pure and strict vegetarian and so on.
The mind and body want food. The mind craves it, the body needs it. Wanting to live or for pleasure, the mind chooses to eat. Dependent upon wisdom and compassion and availability, it chooses form to eat and sustain the body. (Suitable eaten form is dependent upon how closely mind identifies itself with other mind, as well as the desire to live.) Suffice it to say, it's very dependent upon which mind you're looking at.
I don't really see what difference that makes. Why is it different if the gazelle is killed by another human or by a lion? The gazelle is still dead, and negative karma will have accumulated on the part of the being that killed it, regardless of whether it's a lion or a human being. As long as "I" didn't kill it, if I'm going to eat meat, it really makes no difference who killed it.
Falling off a cliff is one thing, or dying of old age or disease, or being hit by a bus, but killing is killing. I'm not advocating eating road kill, btw
The difference is whether the one who wants to eat has done the actual killing. It is breaking the first precept that is at stake. Maybe, we should not even think of breaking precepts.
MindGate, I went vegetarian as soon as I left home to go to University, at 17. I did exactly what CW is saying; researched nutrition in the context of vegetarianism first, got some recipe books, and really noticed a difference in my feeling of well-being when I switched over. Now, being older, I can't eat vegetarian anymore, because of blood-sugar issues (too many carbs throws my balance off), but I hope to someday resolve that, and get back to a veggie diet, which I loved.
I wonder now if being a vegetarian is more for our health or our spiritual well-being.
I desire bacon, steak and country ham. This holiday was a challenge to my practice. I understand this desire. Meat is tasty. It does not put me off to see meat.
But when I look deeply, I see this desire as quite empty, and my disconnect from the slaughter fuels my desire to eat them. So I choose not to.
I think it is great to have a choice. If it is a commandment, what will the Buddhist world be like, I wonder.
The things that go on in a modern day slaughterhouse, and the effect of such places, are some of the most morally repugnant things that human beings engage in. My conscience will not allow me to be affiliated with that activity. So yes.
The modern slaughterhouse is clean and not that repugnant. Do you think the conscience will be clear if the slaughter is being done in a clean, 'humane' environment where as little pain as possible is inflicted and a prayer is said too when the slaughter is done?
Footiam, there are a variety of reasons why someone would go vegetarian. (BTW, there's something wrong with the "quote" mechanism, I saw this on another thread today, too; Compas. Warrior didn't say those things, as I'm sure you realize )
To eat more healthfully, for religious/spiritual purposes, for political/global economic reasons, to name a few. Or all of the above. But as noted previously, not all Buddhists have the option, if they live in regions where it's difficult to grow vegetables, for example.
P.S. re: the slaughterhouse issue--some stores buy their meat from humane ranching businessees (free-range meat, for example), and clean slaughterhouses. But the very word, "slaughterhouse" is kind of a turn-off, isn't it?
I am not due to the fact I am a professional Chef, and what most diners want is meat/fish. I have to taste what I cook, so being a pure Veg is out of the question.
That being said, I have lowered my meat consumption outside of work to very low levels. There are many reasons for this beyond my desire to follow the Buddha's teaching: -Meat is not cheap. I can buy more veggies and grains for the money -Many meats I don't like the taste of and I won't eat fish for the most part(I can't hold fish down..it almost makes me throw up on the spot).
If I ever leave the cooking profession for good, I might turn almost strictly veggie.
I think then one should be a vegetarian only for a valid reason; not that some higher authority demands it. As long as we don't indulge in eating meat, desiring it and getting intoxicated that it brings us trouble, there shouldn't be any issue.
The mind and body want food. The mind craves it, the body needs it. Wanting to live or for pleasure, the mind chooses to eat. Dependent upon wisdom and compassion and availability, it chooses form to eat and sustain the body. (Suitable eaten form is dependent upon how closely mind identifies itself with other mind, as well as the desire to live.) Suffice it to say, it's very dependent upon which mind you're looking at.
The mind and body want food. The mind craves it, the body needs it. Wanting to live or for pleasure, the mind chooses to eat. Dependent upon wisdom and compassion and availability, it chooses form to eat and sustain the body. (Suitable eaten form is dependent upon how closely mind identifies itself with other mind, as well as the desire to live.) Suffice it to say, it's very dependent upon which mind you're looking at.
What if we are lookingat Buddha mind.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Just a side-note: I have deleted some off-topic comments of a personal nature regarding another member. Rather bewilderingly, I was under the impression my initial response regarding this matter, had been via Private Messaging! Such are the hazards of negotiating a new-look forum! I think it sound to advise that if we have any comments to make with regard to issues affecting us personally, they be restricted to PMs, no matter who is discussing what. Or who.
Thank you. Apologies for the interruption. carry on as if nothing......
Ok this honestly might sound really weird (it is 1 a.m. here after all) but I thank my meat for nourishing my body before eating it (kinda like avatar, which is where I got the idea, don't judge =P)
I have cut down my meat consumption, but I do have chicken quite frequently.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I cannot express how much this inner argument rips me apart. I love meat. I'm sorry, I do. Maybe I'm a naturally pre-disposed carnivore, I don't know. I managed to give meat up for three years. Although I remember many personal health benefits to begin with, these seemed to tail off after about 6 months, and I do not recall actually eventually being any more - or less - healthy than when I ate meat. Then - we went round to someone's house for dinner. hadn't seen them for ages, they had no need to ask, and I forgot to mention.... meat for dinner. And of course, you eat what you are given... you don't make a fuss, not after all the trouble they've gone to...
I know, and fully appreciate an animal had to die, for me to eat of its flesh. I strive to remain mindful, and Conscious of the permutations and 'ripples spreading out on the pond'....
It hurts me sometimes, this guilt of loving meat.
The Buddha said it was ok. The Buddha says it's ok to eat meat providing you haven't killed it, and providing it has not been killed specifically for you. The Buddha says harm no sentient living being - this includes yourself.... The Buddha was vegetarian. the Buddha ate meat. a meal consisting of meat killed him. (Big debate there, on the original translation of the actual ingredients which precipitated his demise....)
I can never be a "Vegetarian".... Its pure hypocrisy....
A non-vegetarian have to eat vegetables too. so, in a way, we are vegetarians to a certain extent. There is suppose to be half-vegetarian, pure and strict vegetarian and so on.
Yes, I eat Vegetables too... But why differ from Animal and plants?? Why the Hypocrisy when killing is also involved to sustain your transition in Samsara be it from Animals or Vegetables??
There are only these two things: mind and form. Mind is that which experiences form. If you understand this and you start to see how your mind is no different than the minds of animals (perhaps more complex, better able to experience form), you may lose the desire to do any harm, or have harm done to, animals. This is our experience of animals, that they do have mind to some extent; our experience of plant life has been quite different, and of course it is the nature of life to feed off of other life -- while at the same time the nature of mind to seek understanding and to have compassion.
To live skillfully is with wisdom and compassion both.
We have talked much about the "slaughter houses" in this thread. To get a balanced view, shouldn't we also talk about the "killing fields". I think the following article, although not conclusive, would be a reasonable starting point:
The things that go on in a modern day slaughterhouse, and the effect of such places, are some of the most morally repugnant things that human beings engage in. My conscience will not allow me to be affiliated with that activity. So yes.
The modern slaughterhouse is clean and not that repugnant. Do you think the conscience will be clear if the slaughter is being done in a clean, 'humane' environment where as little pain as possible is inflicted and a prayer is said too when the slaughter is done?
As for the slaughterhouses, depends on where you are I guess. 50,000 cows standing in their own excrement all day, I would hardly consider clean. If they were actually clean, they would probably not be needing to use 29 million pounds of antibiotics a year on the US herd.
The Humane Society of the United States has been doing many undercover investigations of slaughterhouses for the past couple years and they have yet to encounter one that did not engage in horrible, repugnant animal abuses. Every single one they have investigated so far has found horrible animal abuse. Meanwhile, people were claiming that it was a "clean and proper" operation. The HSUS found that they were simply lying.
As for the humane slaughter and prayer, etc. No, since for me eating meat is unnecessary. Therefore being involved, in any way, with the act of killing a sentient being is also unnecessary. Doing things that cause harm to others, that are also unnecessary, is contrary to Ahimsa.
We should be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking, "It is impossible to totally avoid harming animals, therefore avoiding meat would be pointless." By the same token, you could argue whatever you eat (if it contains any type of sugar) will ferment slightly, even after you have swallowed it, and produce some alcohol. Therefore abstinence from alcohol is pointless. It's impossible to sit completely still. There will always be some part of your body that moves just a little bit. Therefore trying to sit still during meditation is pointless.
If you find this argument facetious, I urge you to think about it more. It really isn't. There is a huge difference between causing the occasional death here and there through lack of information or lack of mindfulness; and the conscious, repeated decision to have animals tortured and killed for no other reason but a taste you may prefer over that of a vegetable.
By the same logic, vegetarianism doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. If you are worried, for example, that you might be the one in a thousand human beings that, as a result of some genetic defect, cannot be healthy without eating some animal products, then it would still be better for everyone involved if you ate animal products once or twice a week rather than five times a day. I don't think you will find any doctor who argues anyone should eat meat for every meal. Any and every step in the right direction is just that: A step in the right direction. There is no need to start out with perfection. You don't sit down to meditate for the first time in your life because you are fully enlightened. You sit down because you want to take a step in the right direction. If you are not raised vegetarian, then moving away from animal products can be a similar process: You don't skip the burger in favor of a couple of bananas because you have never before been responsible for any animal's suffering or death. You skip it because you are taking a step in the right direction.
To address a few specific concerns:
Soap can be made from pretty much any fat or oil, and in countries where the government subsidizes meat production, animal fat tends to be cheap, so cheap soap is often non-vegetarian.
Pesticides kill insects and are also bad for us, but even from that perspective, it is preferable to eat plants directly rather than having sixteen pounds of plant matter fed to animals in order to produce one pound of meat.
The taste of animal products is an acquired taste that can actually be "dis-acquired." I have been a strict vegetarian for a year and a half, and honestly during the first several months, certain items—such as cheese or pepperoni—seemed appealing and I occasionally (not every day or even every week) felt a little bit deprived. Within less than a year, though, those desires disappeared completely. Now I can can say without the slightest bit of exaggeration that, as long as adequate plant foods are available, I would not consume any animal products even if there were absolutely no cruelty involved (e.g. accidents). I guess the point of this paragraph is to let you know it's only difficult in the beginning, but won't feel like you're bringing a sacrifice for the rest of your life.
Yes, I eat Vegetables too... But why differ from Animal and plants?? Why the Hypocrisy when killing is also involved to sustain your transition in Samsara be it from Animals or Vegetables??
For the same reason you won't kill and eat your mother, or if you don't want to think about your mother, think about yourself: Picking an apple off a tree is like clipping one of your fingernails, or maybe it's more like getting semen from you, but in any case, it's not the same as hanging you upside down, slitting your throat, and cooking you for dinner, possibly before you have even lost consciousness.
It's really as simple as that; there is no need to bring abstract arguments into it. Just look at a carrot and look at a cow.
The cow has eyes. It can see. The cow has skin and nerves. It can feel the pain of being cut, shot, burnt. The cow has a mind. It can understand pain in the sense that it fears it and tries to avoid it. The cow also has other senses and faculties, very similar to you. So what's the difference between you and the cow? The cow can't read or write or speak English. Do you think if you were unable to read or write or speak English, it would hurt any less to be beaten, or you would be suffering less if confined in a tiny cell, wading in your own excrement? Do you think if you were the smartest person on the planet, you would suffer more if mistreated?
Now the carrot:
It does not have eyes, nerves, and according to some wise people, it doesn't have a mind. We can conclude there is at least some chance that the carrot does not suffer as much as you or a cow would. We may be wrong about the carrot's suffering, in which case vegetarianism may actually make no difference. We may be right.
So what does your conscience tell you about a situation where one action causes great suffering and the alternative action may or may not cause great suffering, but we're not sure which?
Mine tells me to make the distinction between animals and plants. I don't call it hypocrisy. I call it trying my best to minimize something that cannot be completely avoided within Samsara: suffering.
I don't think we should be guilting ourselves about liking or needing meat. The question shouldn't be "ripping us apart", to paraphrase Federica. Tibetans eat meat, and don't worry about it, so why should we? Those who can handle a vegetarian diet, more power to them; they're helping create a better world and reduce suffering for the four-leggeds, wingeds, and swimmers. If someone's system requires meat, then so be it. Nobody's perfect. There are other ways to contribute to decreasing suffering in the world. To each according to his/her ability.
Dear Cloud, have taken note of your advice. Now, I try a new way of replying. I hope it will be more pleasing to the eyes.
Dear Dakini, There are different reasons for becoming a vegetarian but a person ought to know why he or she is into it. It has to be practical and as you say,some people don't have the option. Yes, slaughterhouse does sound a turn-off. What do you think is a better name?
And I do agree with you that one should not be guilt-ridden if he or she is not a vegetarian. Just as you say, if for some health reason, you have to eat meat, then so, be it. Maybe, eating plants and some meat constitute the middle way!
Federica, Don't really understand your side-note but never mind. Anything that I don't understand, I ignore. It's the same thing when come to eating. Need to ignore the voice that may be telling you that you have broken the precept. Perhaps, that would stop that ripping you apart feeling. If it persists, then don't eat!
Paisley, Yes, you better thank your meat. It's good to pray before you eat, don't you thinki?
Akaliko, Hindus do not take beefj. I understand that it's all on compassionate grounds. Maybe, it is not hypocrisy when become vegetarian. Vegetarians can't take the pain and gore that come with killing. With plants, it's different. There is no whining when you chop them.
Cloud,
If our mind is more complex, then it should be different from that of animal. That perhaps is the reason why man decide to become a vegetarian since as you pointed out, there is compassion in our human mind.
No name , no profile-poster - you mean me? Sukhita, The killing fields would be different from a slaughter house. At least, in the latter, you kill to eat.
Seeker, I can understand now why the theslaughterhouse is not a clean place. I did not think of the excrement and the number of cows there but it is really surprising that it can happen there in the U.S. If it is some poor, undeveloped country, then we can understand. Maybe all that come from a poor and undeveloped mind.
Vincenzi,
Talking about white meat, I remember once a teacher of mine said Buddha said not to eat meat but he encouraged eating fish. I don't know if this is true but the teacher did say that is very contradictory.
I struggle with taking into account the precept about killing here.
I was a veggie for many years, until I ate fish, after...a fishing trip. I felt less guilty in being the hunter and having to strike the ending blow! Regardless of Buddha's teachings, I think it is a total cop out to consider eating meat killed by another as being more "moral" or even compassionate. By accepting meat killed by someone else is encouraging killing....which is more negative in my eyes.
Saying that, after about 5 years of eating meat again, I took the decision to become veggie again. Buddhism didn't come into it at that time......but now I am becoming far more fundamental in my eating habits as I believe "doing no harm" or at least minimising the harm we do applies to our environment i.e. not taking care of our environment will impact on future generations throughout the world.
From my perspective, we should take equal care on deciding what vegetables and grains we put in our mouths and take into account:
- Where they have come from? Is it a local organic farm or a mass production farming concern. Asparagus from Peru...nooo thank you when I can pick up a local winter cabbage which was grown within 20km of my house - Have the seeds been genetically modified? Many multi-national seed producers have changed the genetic structure of these seeds for profit of shareholders....not to feed the planet as their marketing departments may suggest - Where I buy my food. Where possible, major supermarkets as a faux pas - How much packaging is there? - How processed in the product? Google "The Real Bread Campaign" for an insight into the impact of modern bread production
The path of least resistance i.e. popping into the local Tesco or Wal-mart for veggie food, may be easy but should we do so? I believe that doing so morally similar to eating a pork chop.
A reflective meditation I do is to consider what I think Buddha would have advised us to do had he lived in 21st Century Great Britain.......maybe consider this meditation too on considering what you eat
Spock, you pointed out that is is not so 'moral' to eat meat of animals that have been killed by another. I suppose you have a point; in a case like this, I do think though the desire of the person who does the eating is at fault.
....... Sukhita, The killing fields would be different from a slaughter house. At least, in the latter, you kill to eat. .....
Actually, in both cases you kill to eat: the difference is only in what you eat in the end, vegetable or meat.
This is not to say that there is no merit in being a vegan, I'm just clarifying the point that life feeds on life - no way of avoiding this. Being a vegan is perhaps very compatible with Buddhist compassion, provided one doesn't go around preaching a "holier than though" message.
...currently experimenting with non-strict veganism (milk, honey and restricted leather), chakra's and Pleione's wisdom, to become conscious autoTropha. (basically, mithocondrial photosynthesis)/
@Vincenzi You say you're experimenting to become a conscious autoTropha. I have come across the word autotroph which means: Any living organism that synthesizes organic substances from inorganic molecules by using light or chemical energy. But what exactly is a "conscious autoTropha" that you're aiming to become?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2010
...currently experimenting with non-strict veganism (milk, honey and restricted leather), chakra's and Pleione's wisdom, to become conscious autoTropha. (basically, mithocondrial photosynthesis)/
I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what on earth you are talking about.....
It would be awfully decent of you @Vincenzi, if you used normal English words on this forum instead of ridiculously obscure vocabulary, such as the above, that even an English-speaking person finds difficult to decipher. Please remember we have many people on this forum, from many different countries. Use plain English. And please re-write your post so we can all understand what you are saying. Many thanks.
Comments
I've read that Tibetans tend to die early, due to cholesterol from drinking butter tea all their lives. Why they don't use Padma 28 themselves, I don't know.
I had a small piece of chicken on my plate yesterday that I thought was bread and as soon as I tasted it, it tasted foul (:)). I didn't get upset I just removed it (I have heard stories of some over reactions to situations like this). It was weird as I used to love chicken as well, in fact that was a major part of my diet.
I'm not trying to sell it, only that if your determined then its quite possible and it doesn't matter whether you presently like meat or not.
It does make a difference though, you can almost feel the merit accumulated by such an action, it does have a positive impact on meditation. The more you believe that its a positive step the more beneficial it will be for yourself.
Its you choice though and no one should judge you on what you decide.
Cheers, WK
But when I look deeply, I see this desire as quite empty, and my disconnect from the slaughter fuels my desire to eat them. So I choose not to.
That being said, I have lowered my meat consumption outside of work to very low levels. There are many reasons for this beyond my desire to follow the Buddha's teaching:
-Meat is not cheap. I can buy more veggies and grains for the money
-Many meats I don't like the taste of and I won't eat fish for the most part(I can't hold fish down..it almost makes me throw up on the spot).
If I ever leave the cooking profession for good, I might turn almost strictly veggie.
The only time I'll eat meat is when it is offered to me.
Falling off a cliff is one thing, or dying of old age or disease, or being hit by a bus, but killing is killing. I'm not advocating eating road kill, btw
Thanks for the link, robot and I now wonder too if a lion has a mind likeus to worry over Karma.
To eat more healthfully, for religious/spiritual purposes, for political/global economic reasons, to name a few. Or all of the above. But as noted previously, not all Buddhists have the option, if they live in regions where it's difficult to grow vegetables, for example.
P.S. re: the slaughterhouse issue--some stores buy their meat from humane ranching businessees (free-range meat, for example), and clean slaughterhouses. But the very word, "slaughterhouse" is kind of a turn-off, isn't it?
I have deleted some off-topic comments of a personal nature regarding another member.
Rather bewilderingly, I was under the impression my initial response regarding this matter, had been via Private Messaging! Such are the hazards of negotiating a new-look forum!
I think it sound to advise that if we have any comments to make with regard to issues affecting us personally, they be restricted to PMs, no matter who is discussing what. Or who.
Thank you.
Apologies for the interruption. carry on as if nothing......
I have cut down my meat consumption, but I do have chicken quite frequently.
I love meat.
I'm sorry, I do.
Maybe I'm a naturally pre-disposed carnivore, I don't know.
I managed to give meat up for three years. Although I remember many personal health benefits to begin with, these seemed to tail off after about 6 months, and I do not recall actually eventually being any more - or less - healthy than when I ate meat.
Then - we went round to someone's house for dinner.
hadn't seen them for ages, they had no need to ask, and I forgot to mention....
meat for dinner.
And of course, you eat what you are given... you don't make a fuss, not after all the trouble they've gone to...
I know, and fully appreciate an animal had to die, for me to eat of its flesh.
I strive to remain mindful, and Conscious of the permutations and 'ripples spreading out on the pond'....
It hurts me sometimes, this guilt of loving meat.
The Buddha said it was ok.
The Buddha says it's ok to eat meat providing you haven't killed it, and providing it has not been killed specifically for you.
The Buddha says harm no sentient living being - this includes yourself....
The Buddha was vegetarian.
the Buddha ate meat.
a meal consisting of meat killed him. (Big debate there, on the original translation of the actual ingredients which precipitated his demise....)
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha192.htm
It's all very confusing...
I just do my best to remain Mindful, and to simplify.
To live skillfully is with wisdom and compassion both.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r1277l2428v10637/fulltext.pdf
The Humane Society of the United States has been doing many undercover investigations of slaughterhouses for the past couple years and they have yet to encounter one that did not engage in horrible, repugnant animal abuses. Every single one they have investigated so far has found horrible animal abuse. Meanwhile, people were claiming that it was a "clean and proper" operation. The HSUS found that they were simply lying.
As for the humane slaughter and prayer, etc. No, since for me eating meat is unnecessary. Therefore being involved, in any way, with the act of killing a sentient being is also unnecessary. Doing things that cause harm to others, that are also unnecessary, is contrary to Ahimsa.
If you find this argument facetious, I urge you to think about it more. It really isn't. There is a huge difference between causing the occasional death here and there through lack of information or lack of mindfulness; and the conscious, repeated decision to have animals tortured and killed for no other reason but a taste you may prefer over that of a vegetable.
By the same logic, vegetarianism doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. If you are worried, for example, that you might be the one in a thousand human beings that, as a result of some genetic defect, cannot be healthy without eating some animal products, then it would still be better for everyone involved if you ate animal products once or twice a week rather than five times a day. I don't think you will find any doctor who argues anyone should eat meat for every meal. Any and every step in the right direction is just that: A step in the right direction. There is no need to start out with perfection. You don't sit down to meditate for the first time in your life because you are fully enlightened. You sit down because you want to take a step in the right direction. If you are not raised vegetarian, then moving away from animal products can be a similar process: You don't skip the burger in favor of a couple of bananas because you have never before been responsible for any animal's suffering or death. You skip it because you are taking a step in the right direction.
To address a few specific concerns:
Soap can be made from pretty much any fat or oil, and in countries where the government subsidizes meat production, animal fat tends to be cheap, so cheap soap is often non-vegetarian.
Pesticides kill insects and are also bad for us, but even from that perspective, it is preferable to eat plants directly rather than having sixteen pounds of plant matter fed to animals in order to produce one pound of meat.
The taste of animal products is an acquired taste that can actually be "dis-acquired." I have been a strict vegetarian for a year and a half, and honestly during the first several months, certain items—such as cheese or pepperoni—seemed appealing and I occasionally (not every day or even every week) felt a little bit deprived. Within less than a year, though, those desires disappeared completely. Now I can can say without the slightest bit of exaggeration that, as long as adequate plant foods are available, I would not consume any animal products even if there were absolutely no cruelty involved (e.g. accidents). I guess the point of this paragraph is to let you know it's only difficult in the beginning, but won't feel like you're bringing a sacrifice for the rest of your life.
It's really as simple as that; there is no need to bring abstract arguments into it. Just look at a carrot and look at a cow.
The cow has eyes. It can see.
The cow has skin and nerves. It can feel the pain of being cut, shot, burnt.
The cow has a mind. It can understand pain in the sense that it fears it and tries to avoid it.
The cow also has other senses and faculties, very similar to you.
So what's the difference between you and the cow? The cow can't read or write or speak English. Do you think if you were unable to read or write or speak English, it would hurt any less to be beaten, or you would be suffering less if confined in a tiny cell, wading in your own excrement? Do you think if you were the smartest person on the planet, you would suffer more if mistreated?
Now the carrot:
It does not have eyes, nerves, and according to some wise people, it doesn't have a mind. We can conclude there is at least some chance that the carrot does not suffer as much as you or a cow would. We may be wrong about the carrot's suffering, in which case vegetarianism may actually make no difference. We may be right.
So what does your conscience tell you about a situation where one action causes great suffering and the alternative action may or may not cause great suffering, but we're not sure which?
Mine tells me to make the distinction between animals and plants. I don't call it hypocrisy. I call it trying my best to minimize something that cannot be completely avoided within Samsara: suffering.
have taken note of your advice. Now, I try a new way of replying. I hope it will be more pleasing to the eyes.
Dear Dakini, There are different reasons for becoming a vegetarian but a person ought to know why he or she is into it. It has to be practical and as you say,some people don't have the option. Yes, slaughterhouse does sound a turn-off. What do you think is a better name?
And I do agree with you that one should not be guilt-ridden if he or she is not a vegetarian. Just as you say, if for some health reason, you have to eat meat, then so, be it. Maybe, eating plants and some meat constitute the middle way!
Federica,
Don't really understand your side-note but never mind. Anything that I don't understand, I ignore. It's the same thing when come to eating. Need to ignore the voice that may be telling you that you have broken the precept. Perhaps, that would stop that ripping you apart feeling. If it persists, then don't eat!
Paisley,
Yes, you better thank your meat. It's good to pray before you eat, don't you thinki?
Akaliko,
Hindus do not take beefj. I understand that it's all on compassionate grounds. Maybe, it is not hypocrisy when become vegetarian. Vegetarians can't take the pain and gore that come with killing. With plants, it's different. There is no whining when you chop them.
Cloud,
If our mind is more complex, then it should be different from that of animal. That perhaps is the reason why man decide to become a vegetarian since as you pointed out, there is compassion in our human mind.
No name , no profile-poster - you mean me?
Sukhita,
The killing fields would be different from a slaughter house. At least, in the latter, you kill to eat.
Seeker,
I can understand now why the theslaughterhouse is not a clean place. I did not think of the excrement and the number of cows there but it is really surprising that it can happen there in the U.S. If it is some poor, undeveloped country, then we can understand. Maybe all that come from a poor and undeveloped mind.
Vincenzi,
Talking about white meat, I remember once a teacher of mine said Buddha said not to eat meat but he encouraged eating fish. I don't know if this is true but the teacher did say that is very contradictory.
I was a veggie for many years, until I ate fish, after...a fishing trip. I felt less guilty in being the hunter and having to strike the ending blow! Regardless of Buddha's teachings, I think it is a total cop out to consider eating meat killed by another as being more "moral" or even compassionate. By accepting meat killed by someone else is encouraging killing....which is more negative in my eyes.
Saying that, after about 5 years of eating meat again, I took the decision to become veggie again. Buddhism didn't come into it at that time......but now I am becoming far more fundamental in my eating habits as I believe "doing no harm" or at least minimising the harm we do applies to our environment i.e. not taking care of our environment will impact on future generations throughout the world.
From my perspective, we should take equal care on deciding what vegetables and grains we put in our mouths and take into account:
- Where they have come from? Is it a local organic farm or a mass production farming concern. Asparagus from Peru...nooo thank you when I can pick up a local winter cabbage which was grown within 20km of my house
- Have the seeds been genetically modified? Many multi-national seed producers have changed the genetic structure of these seeds for profit of shareholders....not to feed the planet as their marketing departments may suggest
- Where I buy my food. Where possible, major supermarkets as a faux pas
- How much packaging is there?
- How processed in the product? Google "The Real Bread Campaign" for an insight into the impact of modern bread production
The path of least resistance i.e. popping into the local Tesco or Wal-mart for veggie food, may be easy but should we do so? I believe that doing so morally similar to eating a pork chop.
A reflective meditation I do is to consider what I think Buddha would have advised us to do had he lived in 21st Century Great Britain.......maybe consider this meditation too on considering what you eat
This is not to say that there is no merit in being a vegan, I'm just clarifying the point that life feeds on life - no way of avoiding this. Being a vegan is perhaps very compatible with Buddhist compassion, provided one doesn't go around preaching a "holier than though" message.
and Pleione's wisdom, to become conscious autoTropha. (basically, mithocondrial photosynthesis)/
You say you're experimenting to become a conscious autoTropha. I have come across the word autotroph which means: Any living organism that synthesizes organic substances from inorganic molecules by using light or chemical energy. But what exactly is a "conscious autoTropha" that you're aiming to become?
It would be awfully decent of you @Vincenzi, if you used normal English words on this forum instead of ridiculously obscure vocabulary, such as the above, that even an English-speaking person finds difficult to decipher.
Please remember we have many people on this forum, from many different countries.
Use plain English.
And please re-write your post so we can all understand what you are saying.
Many thanks.