Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Dear Sukhita, I was thinking in terms of some people killing for power.
Viscenzi,
I, like Sukhita, do not know what is AutoTropha but whatever it is, happy experimenting!
Federica,
Maybe, it is the way Viscenzi writes or speaks in his country. Many of us are not native English speakers and the words we used commonly may not be common to other people in other countries.
I have heard that some non-meat food like onion can disrupt your meditation. So, wonder if you include onion in your diet.
I have no ethical objections to eating onions However, believe it or not, they make my face break out in red splotches, so I do tend to avoid them..... Mmmmm .....spooky, coincidence or not?
Cheers, WK ========================================================= Master Oobley in Kung Fu Panda: "There are no accidents"
Some people's digestion is sensitive; any type of food can disrupt meditation, depending on the individual. Traleg Rinpoche found the digestive process itself disruptive to his meditation, and nearly starved himself to death as a result. Until a number of lamas told him to get his health together. Now he's a butterball. Seems to be struggling to find a middle way approach to food.
This is news to me but it does sound logical. If the digestion is sensitve, it could great discomfort. Any discomfort, as in a hot room etc can disrupt meditation.
Guatama definitely favored vegetarianism, it is just one of those moral issues that cannot be put into formal prohibitions. technically, eating meat can contribute to the violation of the first precept indirectly, which is why it creates confusion as a moral dilemma, while at the same time being a fairly situational one. like what's already been mentioned, geography and environment as well as economy
i would say in terms of vegetarianism, make the decision that is most harmonious.
I'm a bad vegetarian. That is, I'm vegetarian but if someone offers me food with animal stuff in it, I don't freak out. And I have been known to eat the odd thing with gelatine in it (sweets, for instance). I also have to have fish oils for medical reasons, as I have a metabolic problem (something I don't like but I have to be sensible).
I did read a blog in which someone was ranting about HH Dalai Lama being evil. I couldn't imagine what HHDL had done to offend this guy, so I read on, and apparently he'd once encountered HHDL in the green room at Carnegie Hall, eating a bacon sandwich!
He was calling HHDL all sorts of things for this crime, which was strange to me as HHDL never claimed to be a vegetarian. He has said he'd like to be, but again, a health problem prevents him.
We do what we can. I know some Buddhists are fairly hard-core vegans, but I try to stick to the middle way with such things.
It reminded the story of causality in a sutra about the massacre of the Sakya clansmen by the Crystal King (Virudhaka). Before the advent of Sakyamuni Buddha, there was near Kapila town a village inhabited by fishermen, and in it was a big pond. It happened that because of a great drought, the pond ran dry and all the fish were caught and eaten by the villagers. The last fish taken was a big one and before it was killed, a boy who never ate fish, played with it and thrice knocked its head. Later, after Sakyamuni Buddha's appearance in this world, King Prasenajit who believed in the Buddha-dharma, married a Sakya girl who then gave birth to a prince called Crsytal. When he was young, Crystal had his schooling in Kapila which was then inhabited by the Sakya clansmen. One day while playing, the boy ascended to the Buddha's seat and was reprimanded by others who dragged him down. The boy cherished a grudge against the men and when he became king, he led his soldiers to attack Kapila, killing all its inhabitants. At the same time, the Buddha suffered from a headache which lasted three days. When His disciples asked Him to rescue the poor inhabitants, the Buddha replied that a fixed Karma could not be changed. By means of his miraculous powers, Maudgalyayana rescued five hundred Sakya clansmen and thought he could give them refuge in his own bowl which was raised up in the air. When the bowl was brought down, all the men had been turned into blood. When asked by His chief disciples, the Buddha related the story (kung an) of the villagers who in days gone by had killed all the fish (in their pond); King Crystal had been the big fish and his soldiers the other fish in the pond; the inhabitants of Kapila who were now killed had been those who ate the fish; and the Buddha Himself had been the boy who thrice knocked the head of the big fish. (Karma was) now causing Him to suffer from a headache for three days in retribution for his previous act. Since there colud be no escape from the effects of a fixed Karma, the five hundred Sakya clansmen, although rescued by Maudgalyayana, shared the same fate. Later, King Crystal was reborn in a hell. (As cause produces effect which in turn becomes a new cause) the retribution (theory) is inexhaustible. The law of causality is really very dreadful.
Many Theravada monks take meat too. So, it does not surprise if Tibetan lamas like Dalai Lama ate some meat. It's dead meant anyway and besides, as you say, take the middle way!
Dear Wilfred,
Nice story but I have never really understood stories like this. Same thing too about the Jataka tales. Many of these stories left me bewildered.
The main object of Buddhism is NOT TO BE CHOOSY... This includes choosing vegetarian food too... But we can eat meat if we can make sure it is not killed FOR us... I am a born veggie, so I have no probs either way
Fruit trees grow easily in the lower parts of Tibet, I read. and you say there is no way to grow plants to eat, then what do the animals eat, themselves?? obviously Tibet has a warm summer and short spring and fall, plenty of time for some crops to grow.........
nidish isnt the main object of buddhism to love everyone, not to cause suffering, work to alleviate suffering, something like that, not being choosy; ive never heard that from anyone at the temple. not forcing anyone to believe the same way i do, now thats part of buddhism, but i chose to foolow buddha over many others, i chose to follow this school, i chose to practise this way, whats wrong with that?
The animals in Tibet are mainly grazers. The herbivores eat the grasses. And you cannot survive on fruits only. Fruit trees and vegetables are 2 different entities. Fruit trees are usually very hardy, thriving in more harsh situations. Vegetables used for food are usually less hardy, and are affected by their environment more.
I did not say there's no way to grow plants. I said the Tibetans before and up to the Chinese Occupation were successful in growing only a small amount of plants as crops. Of course they had vegetables, but they were not enough variety to provide for a balanced meal (not even close), and had to consume meat for health.
until the 20th century, no one had any idea what a balanced meal was, and sometimes their health or lack thereof showed it. ive heard a lot of stories about monks living on nothing but rice and tea, many tibetans probably chose a very simple vegetarian diet over the option of adding meat, for religious reasons. plus they seemed to have plenty of barley. also the hunzas who supposedly live to 140 eat tons of often dried fruit.
In Tibet, the staple is barley in the form of Tsampa. And they may have gone vegetarian for religious purposes, but many of them were of poor health in Tibet.
And in the Medical Tantras of Tibet, meat is considered essential in many concoctions to boost a person health.
if we only ate meat when we were sick, the world would be a better place, MUCH less suffering for animals, not to mention how good it is for our own health, no atkins diet for vegetarians, though, other than the cheese omlette diet!!!
nidish isnt the main object of buddhism to love everyone, not to cause suffering, work to alleviate suffering, something like that, not being choosy; ive never heard that from anyone at the temple. not forcing anyone to believe the same way i do, now thats part of buddhism, but i chose to foolow buddha over many others, i chose to follow this school, i chose to practise this way, whats wrong with that?
You are Absolutely correct.. And I owe an apology for not being clear... Yes the main object of Buddhism is to alleviate suffering.. But, what goes into it is, the losing of identity.. And as long as one chooses what he wants, that can never be attained.. I read this in some sutra... I will put in the link if I get to it again(I am searching)...
@Vincenzi You say you're experimenting to become a conscious autoTropha. I have come across the word autotroph which means: Any living organism that synthesizes organic substances from inorganic molecules by using light or chemical energy. But what exactly is a "conscious autoTropha" that you're aiming to become?
well, most people relate autotropha with plants... conscious autotropha are organisms that have developed a complex language and (later) technology. probably a humanoid.
@federica, all words are in english... maybe just chakra, but that should be common knowledge among buddhists.
It’s good not to be choosy but I don’t know if Buddhism did teach one to be not choosy. And about eating meat, one can’t do anything if someone wants to kill some poor creatures to feed you.
Dear former monk John, Thanks about the information on Tibet. Don’t know much about the place but pictures of the place seems so barren. Maybe, the lower part and the upper part are different but still there should be some grasses for the animals to graze. It would be good if men can graze like animals.
And all the while, I thought Buddhism is about gaining enlightenment for oneself.
Dear dorje, You have a point. I was just thinking the Tibetans at the upper part has no fruits to eat since it was pointed out that fruit trees grow on the lower part of the country.
Dear Vincenzi, Thanks for explaining the word ‘autotropha’. I know of plants being described as autotrophic. That’s about all.
I'm from a very cold and not very modern place originally-- eating meet and animal products is a question of survival there. I doubt that one could be healthy and live long on plant food alone, especially that imported food was either unavailable or extremely expensive. So those eating habits are hardwired into me. I just don't feel like I've eaten adequately if there hasn't been a bit of corpse on my plate
I do struggle with the concept of killing for food though. I drew the line at not eating red meat and sticking to poultry and seafood. I also eat meat no more than once a day. I think I'm ok with myself for the observable future.
Dear Shadowleaver, Being full vegetarian will not affect our health if we choose the 'vegetables' we eat. As far as I know, some Indians have been vegearians all their life and are as strong as an ox and talking about ox, cows just eat grass and are strong too. But of course, we are not cows and we are not expect to eat grass. But vegetarian diet, I heard, should include beans. Anyway, this is the first time that I have heard that in a cold place, one is to eat meat to survive. And about red meat, once a teacher in school told us, Buddha said that one should not eat meat but could eat fish. He said that is strange because meat or fish, they should be the same thing.
IMO, vegetarianism is important. However, if someone is unable to make that change, then if they just switch to products that aren't tested on animals, make sure they only eat free range and avoid fast food places like KFC, then these are all steps in the right direction.
Vegetarianism is encouraged in the Mahayana Sutras, namely the Brahma Net, Lankavatara and Nirvana Sutras.
IMO buying ethical food which causes minimal impact on the planet and does not cause suffering is most important. Eating a sausage made with a free range pig that has had a good life is far more acceptable in my eyes than eating processed food made by a multinational.
The Buddha ate meat and as Jason pointed out he rejected the call for vegetarianism. To me, anymore, this just seems like another side road to get lost on. This was not taught by the Buddha and as far as I am concerned it is not Buddhism. If one is driven by compassion that is all well and good and each must choose. One would imagine that cultivating mindfulness, knowing the 4NT's and the Noble 8 would be more than enough to occupy us for a lifetime, but it seems to me much baggage has been attached to the sublime truth the Buddha expounded as to make it almost unrecognizable. No wonder people get confused. With all my heart and deep respect, Todd
I'm not, though I have nothing against it. I eat meat but on very rare occasions... usually only celebrations or if we're going out to dinner, or if a hunter got a good kill.
This is my opinion from what I hear from other people...
Theravada monks still has to get their food from alms round, hence they can't be ungrateful choosers and must eat whatever is offered. Tibetan monastics lives in a harsh environment where it's hard to obtain enough food without eating meat. So there you go.
Mahayana monastics tends to get supported by the devotees through donations or grow their own food, so they have no excuse not to be vegetarians.
Anyway, vegetarian diet rulz! Especially enjoys the ease whenever you have to drop kids off at the pool! Much less effort than my greedy days of eating beef spaghetti bolognese all the time!
Bro! Thats the sort of unclean meat you shouldn't eat! thats too close to the realm of "meat thats killed for me" or "I know too well how/when/where it's been killed".
I am a vegetarian and have been since I was 16, so 5 years ago. I think that if you're part of the demand then you're part of the reason for the supply which involves killing and certain suffering. Before I made the decision to become vegetarian, I researched factory farming extensively, which is where almost 100% of the world's meat comes from. It's the #1 cause for deforestation, #1 cause for water pollution, #1 cause for air pollution, #1 cause for disease, #1 cause for our antibiotics not being as effective, and the list goes on - in fact factory farming produces more green houses gases than every mode of transportation in the world combined. It is the single most destructive industry on Earth and ultimately causes suffering for all. So I don't want to contribute towards the demand for that suffering - the obvious suffering of those animals and the suffering we are causing ourselves.
My other reason is more simple - treat others as you want to be treated! I wouldn't like an animal to eat me, so I don't eat them
Dear NOTaGangsta, That probably means food is not the issue in Buddhism.
But I am not so sure about the concept of ‘unclean meat’. Can you also see it like some people see pork as being unclean?
Dear jenzay, All those worldly problems that you mentioned like pollution etc are not caused by eating meat alone. If you put your vegetable in a plastic bag for example, you are still contributing to pollution.
And some people may rather eat the animal rather than letting the animal eat him or her!
Dear NOTaGangsta, That probably means food is not the issue in Buddhism.
But I am not so sure about the concept of ‘unclean meat’. Can you also see it like some people see pork as being unclean?
When you've seen the "meat" being killed, heard it's killing or knows that it's specifically killed for you, there are karmic consequences. Where as simply buying meat from the super market does not have the same negative intentions.
footiam, I'm aware that plastic bags cause pollution, I was just saying that factory farming is statistically the most destructive industry on Earth. I think it's ironic that most people worry about their car causing pollution before their diet, when worldwide transportation causes 14% of greenhouse gases and the meat industry causes 51%.
I have nothing against people who eat meat. I do think though, that many people are in denial about the damage that factory farming causes, because they're attached to the habit of eating meat and ignoring it is easier than changing one's diet. Ignorance is bliss
(I don't mean people that need to hunt to survive, they obviously don't even have access to factory farmed meat.)
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
footiam, I'm aware that plastic bags cause pollution, I was just saying that factory farming is statistically the most destructive industry on Earth. I think it's ironic that most people worry about their car causing pollution before their diet, when worldwide transportation causes 14% of greenhouse gases and the meat industry causes 51%.
I have nothing against people who eat meat. I do think though, that many people are in denial about the damage that factory farming causes, because they're attached to the habit of eating meat and ignoring it is easier than changing one's diet. Ignorance is bliss
(I don't mean people that need to hunt to survive, they obviously don't even have access to factory farmed meat.)
I have nothing against people who eat meat. I do think though, that many people are in denial about the damage that factory farming causes, because they're attached to the habit of eating meat and ignoring it is easier than changing one's diet. Ignorance is bliss
This is a good point. There are plenty of stores that sell free-range meat, cage-free eggs & chicken. It pays to be mindful of where our food comes from and the conditions in which it is raised/cultivated.
This is a good point. There are plenty of stores that sell free-range meat, cage-free eggs & chicken. It pays to be mindful of where our food comes from and the conditions in which it is raised/cultivated.
Yes I agree, I am vegetarian, however, unfortunately my wife is not, so whenever we do the shopping I always reminder her (pester her) to buy free range, rspca freedom food, and pole and line caught fish etc etc.
Dear zidangus, Your wife and other non-vegetarians are probably just as happy.
I know she is, but I'd like to think the meat that she does eat comes from animals which have at least had a decent standard of life and not from irresponsible sources.
no I am not. I will eat any meat if it is edible. I am always curious to try meats. I once worked at a pub/restaurant who was run by south africans in the UK. This is no lie, on the menu there was ostrich, zebra and crocodile. I am sure at least one of those is endangered... It just seemed weird to me to be on a menu in england. I would try a cows brain if it was served up to me, I have eaten heart of lamb and pretty much all meats
@ThailandTom I am South African and I can assure you our restaurants do not serve endangered animal meat. In fact I have never even heard of anybody eating a zebra. Though I can't speak for the UK.
Also, there is no difference between eating a cow and eating an ostrich or a crocodile. Except maybe that the ostrich/croc had a happier life.
footiam, I actually had a discussion about 3 years ago with a friend and we both said we would try human meat if it was cooked and from somebody who had died from natural causes, purely out of curiosity of the taste
Oh Dear ThailandTom, I wonder if you will be accepted by the masses. It is not that you are spoilt for lack of choices. Would you try every non-meat dishes, I wonder.
of course, and I have done many times before. I try any food I have never seen or tried before. But I am not too bothered if I am accepted by the masses, each to their own, I am just a curious cat
Want to try more meat out of desire for indulgence doesn't seem like a wise thing to do considering your not even doing it out of ignorance to Buddhist teachings.
Comments
I was thinking in terms of some people killing for power.
Viscenzi,
I, like Sukhita, do not know what is AutoTropha but whatever it is, happy experimenting!
Federica,
Maybe, it is the way Viscenzi writes or speaks in his country. Many of us are not native English speakers and the words we used commonly may not be common to other people in other countries.
Mmmmm .....spooky, coincidence or not?
Cheers, WK
=========================================================
Master Oobley in Kung Fu Panda: "There are no accidents"
Not so spooky.
Dakini,
This is news to me but it does sound logical. If the digestion is sensitve, it could great discomfort. Any discomfort, as in a hot room etc can disrupt meditation.
I did read a blog in which someone was ranting about HH Dalai Lama being evil. I couldn't imagine what HHDL had done to offend this guy, so I read on, and apparently he'd once encountered HHDL in the green room at Carnegie Hall, eating a bacon sandwich!
He was calling HHDL all sorts of things for this crime, which was strange to me as HHDL never claimed to be a vegetarian. He has said he'd like to be, but again, a health problem prevents him.
We do what we can. I know some Buddhists are fairly hard-core vegans, but I try to stick to the middle way with such things.
You love Pietro or do you love vegetarianism?
Dear Ada_B,
Many Theravada monks take meat too. So, it does not surprise if Tibetan lamas like Dalai Lama ate some meat. It's dead meant anyway and besides, as you say, take the middle way!
Dear Wilfred,
Nice story but I have never really understood stories like this. Same thing too about the Jataka tales. Many of these stories left me bewildered.
I did not say there's no way to grow plants. I said the Tibetans before and up to the Chinese Occupation were successful in growing only a small amount of plants as crops. Of course they had vegetables, but they were not enough variety to provide for a balanced meal (not even close), and had to consume meat for health.
And in the Medical Tantras of Tibet, meat is considered essential in many concoctions to boost a person health.
@federica, all words are in english... maybe just chakra, but that should be common knowledge among buddhists.
It’s good not to be choosy but I don’t know if Buddhism did teach one to be not choosy. And about eating meat, one can’t do anything if someone wants to kill some poor creatures to feed you.
Dear former monk John,
Thanks about the information on Tibet. Don’t know much about the place but pictures of the place seems so barren. Maybe, the lower part and the upper part are different but still there should be some grasses for the animals to graze. It would be good if men can graze like animals.
And all the while, I thought Buddhism is about gaining enlightenment for oneself.
Dear dorje,
You have a point. I was just thinking the Tibetans at the upper part has no fruits to eat since it was pointed out that fruit trees grow on the lower part of the country.
Dear Vincenzi,
Thanks for explaining the word ‘autotropha’. I know of plants being described as autotrophic. That’s about all.
I do struggle with the concept of killing for food though. I drew the line at not eating red meat and sticking to poultry and seafood. I also eat meat no more than once a day. I think I'm ok with myself for the observable future.
Being full vegetarian will not affect our health if we choose the 'vegetables' we eat. As far as I know, some Indians have been vegearians all their life and are as strong as an ox and talking about ox, cows just eat grass and are strong too. But of course, we are not cows and we are not expect to eat grass. But vegetarian diet, I heard, should include beans. Anyway, this is the first time that I have heard that in a cold place, one is to eat meat to survive. And about red meat, once a teacher in school told us, Buddha said that one should not eat meat but could eat fish. He said that is strange because meat or fish, they should be the same thing.
Vegetarianism is encouraged in the Mahayana Sutras, namely the Brahma Net, Lankavatara and Nirvana Sutras.
Food is important.
I am a veggie though
With all my heart and deep respect,
Todd
Yes
Namaste
http://www.shabkar.org/
.
Minimal impact is still impact and when they accumulate, they could be devastating.
Dear The swing is yellow,
We have dust in our eyes and thus, many side roads.
Dear compassionate_warrior,
The teacher who talk about the meat and fish thing is a Muslim. He was teaching Geography.
Dear Daozen,
Some people are vegetarians for health reasons. Any specific reason for you?
Dear Dazzle,
Thanks for the link. Would love to know your view though.
Dear Zayl,
Even with meat, one could live happily and peacefully, don’t you think?
Theravada monks still has to get their food from alms round, hence they can't be ungrateful choosers and must eat whatever is offered.
Tibetan monastics lives in a harsh environment where it's hard to obtain enough food without eating meat. So there you go.
Mahayana monastics tends to get supported by the devotees through donations or grow their own food, so they have no excuse not to be vegetarians.
Anyway, vegetarian diet rulz! Especially enjoys the ease whenever you have to drop kids off at the pool! Much less effort than my greedy days of eating beef spaghetti bolognese all the time!
Before I made the decision to become vegetarian, I researched factory farming extensively, which is where almost 100% of the world's meat comes from. It's the #1 cause for deforestation, #1 cause for water pollution, #1 cause for air pollution, #1 cause for disease, #1 cause for our antibiotics not being as effective, and the list goes on - in fact factory farming produces more green houses gases than every mode of transportation in the world combined. It is the single most destructive industry on Earth and ultimately causes suffering for all. So I don't want to contribute towards the demand for that suffering - the obvious suffering of those animals and the suffering we are causing ourselves.
My other reason is more simple - treat others as you want to be treated! I wouldn't like an animal to eat me, so I don't eat them
That probably means food is not the issue in Buddhism.
But I am not so sure about the concept of ‘unclean meat’. Can you also see it like some people see pork as being unclean?
Dear jenzay,
All those worldly problems that you mentioned like pollution etc are not caused by eating meat alone. If you put your vegetable in a plastic bag for example, you are still contributing to pollution.
And some people may rather eat the animal rather than letting the animal eat him or her!
Somehow, regardless of whether there are karmic consequences or not, people still have to eat.
Its good for you n the planet.
Furthermore, I was given a vegetarian burger at a food fest,
It tasted the same as meat burger.
I have nothing against people who eat meat. I do think though, that many people are in denial about the damage that factory farming causes, because they're attached to the habit of eating meat and ignoring it is easier than changing one's diet. Ignorance is bliss
(I don't mean people that need to hunt to survive, they obviously don't even have access to factory farmed meat.)
Metta to all sentient beings
I have met people who thinks that it is a luxury to have meat in their kitchen table.
Dear jenzay,
When we care about our planet, our diet and everything counts.
Dear person,
I always thought Matrix is just a fantasy. Is Meatrix a fantasy too?
Dear compassionate_warrior,
Wonder if this mindfulness would lead to Nirvana!
Dear zidangus,
Your wife and other non-vegetarians are probably just as happy.
With Metta
Also, there is no difference between eating a cow and eating an ostrich or a crocodile. Except maybe that the ostrich/croc had a happier life.
It is okay to eat meat of animals with a decent standard of life then.
Dear ThailandTom,
Man’s meat is edible.
Dear jenzay,
People break this Buddhist precept in this forum: Thou should not lie.
I wonder if you will be accepted by the masses. It is not that you are spoilt for lack of choices. Would you try every non-meat dishes, I wonder.
Know what I am saying?