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The fifth precept.. Intoxicants?
I've only read people talking in reference to alcohol.. What is the buddha's theory of marijuana? Prescription drugs?
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Medicine is another story, if not being abused.
Namaste
intoxication is a short term and harmful way to keep yourself from attachments. when your drunk you aren't abstractly afraid of things and you don't crave abstract things that's really the pleasure of intoxication. just the pleasure of life minus some of the craving and fear.
I imagine a drunk enlightened person would be just as happy as a sober enlightened person, just less balanced and clear in the head.
So...
intoxicants cause addiction, physical harm, reduced clarity, and in the end the most they can do is give you are the effects of buddhist practice, just more short term and less pure.
Drugs are drugs are drugs, legal, natural or otherwise. Why do you think it's ok just because they're legal? People can overdose from prescription drugs (and quite frequently do) much more easily because they're easy to obtain.
You are deluding yourself if you think doing prescription drugs is safer and more moral than doing illegal ones.
In metta,
Raven
OTOH, At 180 degrees the other direction there's stuff like LSD. I'd love to take a supervised trip with pharmaceutical grade LSD. I don't think that would be looked down upon Buddha-wise because it would not be a habit and it is demonstrably creative and educational.
Thanks for letting me add my two cents. It feels good to openly wish for and justify a legal, supervised LSD trip! :rockon: Too bad it's not possible.
The answer to all of these questions that I see crop up every day on this forum is, you will know if what you are doing is clouding your practice, if indeed you have one yet. Only 'you' have the answer to this question....Buddha made the map....but I think he meant for you to find your own way
guys have you ever heard that "THOU ART BUDDHA" something like that? ask yourself this question that you pose... and answer honestly its that simple..kinda like chanratt says..
I have a few problems with smoking and drinking.. more than a few problems ..its something thats holding me back extremely.. F*** herbs and booze, seriously..
they are useless unless you want to live in a fantasy world and die sooner than you want to.. which in my case is happening.. im so far gone ..last month..my doctor says i have a 10% chance to recover my liver if i never drink again..you know what ive been doing tonight ? polishing off 24 beers..
in all honesty these things are childish .. instead ..work out a bit, im starting to, and its a greater high and much more beneficial, and im not talkin health, i got lucky a few times recently because of it...not to mention an increase in stamina which goes towards work, and play.. anyway
f*** off
It is just a theory, but you can research it on the Internet... All I'm saying is you have to decide what breaks the fifth precept for yourself.
"I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/pancasila.html
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lol
I like this but I can't articulate why. :P
There are smart people who are anti-drug and smart people who think pychedelics are miracles in pill form. Of course addiction and abuse are likely discouraged by both sides.
Meditation is the perfect drug.
"Just buddhism it up". <------
"Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, I am committed to cultivating good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family, and my society by practicing mindful eating, drinking, and consuming. I will practice looking deeply into how I consume the Four Kinds of Nutriments, namely edible foods, sense impressions, volition, and consciousness. I am determined not to gamble, or to use alcohol, drugs, or any other products which contain toxins, such as certain websites, electronic games, TV programs, films, magazines, books, and conversations. I will practice coming back to the present moment to be in touch with the refreshing, healing and nourishing elements in me and around me, not letting regrets and sorrow drag me back into the past nor letting anxieties, fear, or craving pull me out of the present moment. I am determined not to try to cover up loneliness, anxiety, or other suffering by losing myself in consumption. I will contemplate interbeing and consume in a way that preserves peace, joy, and well-being in my body and consciousness, and in the collective body and consciousness of my family, my society and the Earth."
http://www.plumvillage.org/mindfulness-trainings/3-the-five-mindfulness-trainings.html
Perhaps many here do not use chemical intoxicants because it interferes with their practice, especially those that have been practicing a long time. In many cases, it isn't "anti" anything, but rather personal choice. You can use all the drugs you want and find for yourself if it is conducive to minimizing delusion and suffering.
Best wishes!
ex-
If you are proscribed, say, Vicodin for pain and use it as your doctor said you should, this is not a violation of the 5th precept. On the other hand, if you start taking them more than was proscribed because you like the high, that is a clear violation of the 5th precept.
Any sort of intoxicant/drug may seem to give you wisdom/second sight/whatever, but it is a illusion. Drugs will take you over eventally and cause more suffering in many many ways with Addiction being the biggest source of suffering.
Mindfullness needs a clear mind that has no limits put on it by intoxicants.(At least, that is my experience...I have a heck of time staying mindfull sober!)
Gotta go with that: TOTALLY.
Thanks for posting it. :thumbsup:
Yeah, it's no "fun" if you are younger BUT for me as a guy approaching middle age: it makes perfect sense.
I guess it's okay to "grow up and into Buddhism" there's no strict time schedule. Getting older has benefits I guess.
OTOH, If smoking and drinking again could give me back my 20s I'd be gone in a half hour.
The 5th precept isn't about purity. It is about not becoming heedless so you make a condition in which your life has less spiritual meaning. Such as you harm someone and get involved in negative things.
The 5th precept is nothing like the hare krishna prohibition to meat where they think meat makes you impure. Drugs are neither pure or impure. It is some peoples karma to do them. Try to be as compassionate and awake as you can. A crusade against or for drugs is meaningless. Mindfulness is meaningful and allows you to make a true non-habitual choice.
That being said drugs are an example sometimes of something people grasp. To condition their experience. To fix it. But that doesn't mean that people who do not to drugs overcome this. No they have their computers and shopping and nail biting, and sex, and music, spouses, meditation highs, pride in scholarship, careers and collections etc..
Within all of these behaviours even something as sacred cow as a baby there is grasping and also a spiritual pleasure of life. Drugs can also be enjoyed but they are dangerous and interfere with life. Its like trainspotting movie about herion. Choose life or choose drugs.
I went to the link and it got scary, says the website has been "hacked."
I edited the link I copied above with x to be safe.
It's pretty clear that toking it up, shooting it up or pissing the night away are against the Fifth precept. I would suggest it's not so much
"In my opinion, as long as you are able to maintain mindfulness under the drugs influence it is not a problem" (quoting Minty)
but more like if you can't accept the precept, then face the fact that Buddhism may not be for you.
I'm sorry I don't mean to hijack this thread and rant but if one can't follow important tenets of a path, the maybe they should find another path. If one really wants to follow a path, bluntly, harden up and do it. No spiritual journey is meant to be easy. Buddhism is no exception.
Respectfully,
Raven
We don't want to scare anybody away from a chance to eventually realize their own Buddha nature.
:-/
If you accept rebirth then in countless lifetimes you were addicted to drugs. Don't sever anyone's connection to the dharma!
The point of the precept is to not be unskillful. If the drugs don't make you unskillful then it doesn't matter. Besides, heedlessness is subjective. Paracetamol sure numbs the body quite a bit and can make you drowsy and thus numb your mind too......make of that what you will.
If I'm wrong about that then maybe Buddhism isn't for ME either. *shrugs*
If the drug use creates such severe problems that this is impossible (stability for insight) the best thing to do is to create a wish that at a later time you will have overcome the addiction and can practice the dharma.
Saying "oh I am not a buddhist I will crawl under a rock or give up" is foolish. I know you think you are giving tough love I guess. I know you think you are doing the right thing.
Trying to make someone give up drugs by leveraging 'you are not a good enough buddhist' is like opening a chrysalis and killing the butterfly. At the right moment the condition for sobriety or what is necessary to practice enlightenment will come about. This is aided by are wishing prayers that it will happen even though we are trapped in unskillful behaviour.
Many may not have even recognized their addiction is an impediment. So why would you dislodge them from an awareness practice in which they may become aware of that reality?
There's this story I heard about someone asking Shuryu Suzuki about Zen. Seeing a pack of cigarettes in his pocket, he said something along the lines of it being at least as hard as quitting smoking.
But those of you who've questioned my post have given me food for thought.
In metta,
Raven
Buddha said :
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?
"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...
" The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
(AN 4.77)
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/accesstoinsight/html/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html
with kind wishes
D.
I don't mean that they shouldn't be used as a general guide for being a good person and such, but I mean once enlightened you can see just how fake reality actually is. You can go out and slaughter puppies And shoot people in cold blood... It doesn't matter. The point is that once you have truth, you probably wouldn't want to because you'd only be hurting yourself anyway.
Killing hurts the killer, not the killed.
If one chooses to use drugs, it is right for them. Waking life is just a dream, don't take it so seriously... If you want to smoke some pot and relax, go ahead. If you don't, then simply do not. You can do whatever you want and there is no such thing as a "bad Buddhist."
Unless I've misunderstood, you appear to think that you have some advanced understanding yourself and that morality in Dhamma practice is unnecessary at some point.
I suggest you find an offline teacher at a Buddhist centre and do some face-to -face talking to them and to some other practitioners there, because you seem to have some very muddled ideas that you're giving out as advice to others.
Kind regards,
D.
I believe even the dahlia Llama said something to the effect that life should not be taken so seriously.
The only advice I'm offering is to look inside to see what is right for you and not adhere to any specific set of laws other than ones own.
Think for yourself.
You advised me "Think for yourself."
Nah, why do that when I can consult "the dahlia Llama"? LOL !
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/dazz/Dalia.jpg
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/dazz/LLAMA.jpg
Be well and at ease,
D.
Life is not a dream, reality is not fake, actions have consequences, killing very much hurts the killed, and it's certainly not "Anything goes."
Your thinking is a cautionary example of what happens when someone confuses Buddhism for Nihilism. Once the party is over and you look around at the mess you've made of your life and wonder what to do now, take another look at the Noble Truths and see if you can figure out why your path turned out to be a dead end. The Dharma will be waiting patiently.
Anyway, may you be well and at peace.
D
No big deal. Everything will be okay.
I do see what you mean though, for sure. Where does one draw the line?
I personally? I'd draw the line and get really "demanding" (bad choice of words? not that you're demanding anything) about following the precepts after someone claiming to follow the path actually ______TAKES REFUGE_______.
Oh the christian thing? My two cents (probably wrong). AFAIK, you can kill, rape and plunder and still get to Heaven by some such procedure. In B. you can't get away from bad Karma (even if you have NOT taken refuge!) so it's muuuuch better for "enforcing" personal responsibility.
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