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Buddhist sceptic & taking refuge
This is really a rhetorical question. I just want to know if people have opinions about this issue.
Basically, I went through almost 20 years of being conned. I was a fundamentalist Christian whose devotion was largely about a deep fear of hell. It was pretty horrible and it took me a couple of years to "de-program" myself (you have to be in a religion like that to understand the psychological pressure).
Having lost my faith, I went through a deeply nihilistic (bad sense of the word) and atheistic stage. I felt I'd been conned and I was never going to be conned again. In addition, I have a scientific background (major reason I lost my Christian faith) and feel it is important I remain objective and sceptical. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" as the saying goes.
I've had no problems with the Buddhist teaching I've had, even though I have ended up in a Tibetan Kagyu sangha and they are fairly mystical. 'Mystical' is fine for me however - there is no explicit requirement for me to take stuff literally. We were discussing maras the other day, for instance, and my lay teacher explained that although the word is translated "demon", it is not that we have to believe we are literally being stalked by little ugly creatures trying to mess up our practice. Then again, maras are as much an illusion as everything else in this life.
I believe the Four Noble Truths and try to practice the Eightfold Path. I find meditation immensely beneficial and like to think I am much calmer, happier and easier to be with than I was 5 years ago, as a result of my practice.
My would-be teacher (Lama Chime Rinpoche) has many scientists among his students, and told me that he does not require blind faith. I do not believe it would actually be a problem if I were to say to him at some time "I don't believe that". I also do not believe he would ever pressurise me into accepting something I fundamentally did not believe in. However, I am still concerned.
Meditating on the issue, and thinking about it, I have concluded my real worries are about some of the New Agey people in the sangha, who do hold beliefs I cannot share. I'm worried I'll get sucked in, and start agreeing with stuff I don't agree with, or even get brainwashed again. None of my worries are actually centred on Lama Chime Rinpoche, but I do feel I need to get to know him better before taking refuge. This is difficult for me as the sangha house is an hour away, and Lama Chime is not one of those lamas who writes long books. He's more of a "doer" (which is one of the things I admire about him).
Lama Chime says there is no hurry. Should I perhaps leave it a bit before taking refuge, until I feel more confident, or is my reticence really just a delaying tactic of my ego!
Basically, I went through almost 20 years of being conned. I was a fundamentalist Christian whose devotion was largely about a deep fear of hell. It was pretty horrible and it took me a couple of years to "de-program" myself (you have to be in a religion like that to understand the psychological pressure).
Having lost my faith, I went through a deeply nihilistic (bad sense of the word) and atheistic stage. I felt I'd been conned and I was never going to be conned again. In addition, I have a scientific background (major reason I lost my Christian faith) and feel it is important I remain objective and sceptical. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" as the saying goes.
I've had no problems with the Buddhist teaching I've had, even though I have ended up in a Tibetan Kagyu sangha and they are fairly mystical. 'Mystical' is fine for me however - there is no explicit requirement for me to take stuff literally. We were discussing maras the other day, for instance, and my lay teacher explained that although the word is translated "demon", it is not that we have to believe we are literally being stalked by little ugly creatures trying to mess up our practice. Then again, maras are as much an illusion as everything else in this life.
I believe the Four Noble Truths and try to practice the Eightfold Path. I find meditation immensely beneficial and like to think I am much calmer, happier and easier to be with than I was 5 years ago, as a result of my practice.
My would-be teacher (Lama Chime Rinpoche) has many scientists among his students, and told me that he does not require blind faith. I do not believe it would actually be a problem if I were to say to him at some time "I don't believe that". I also do not believe he would ever pressurise me into accepting something I fundamentally did not believe in. However, I am still concerned.
Meditating on the issue, and thinking about it, I have concluded my real worries are about some of the New Agey people in the sangha, who do hold beliefs I cannot share. I'm worried I'll get sucked in, and start agreeing with stuff I don't agree with, or even get brainwashed again. None of my worries are actually centred on Lama Chime Rinpoche, but I do feel I need to get to know him better before taking refuge. This is difficult for me as the sangha house is an hour away, and Lama Chime is not one of those lamas who writes long books. He's more of a "doer" (which is one of the things I admire about him).
Lama Chime says there is no hurry. Should I perhaps leave it a bit before taking refuge, until I feel more confident, or is my reticence really just a delaying tactic of my ego!
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the point i'm trying to make here is that as a result of this, i feel a little overly cautious as well. i think that is a natural reaction. but i also know this, i found my way out before and i can do it again should the need arise. perhaps you need to have a little more faith in your own reasoning skills. vow not to accept anything blindly because your lama says so. vow to always have the courage to challenge things that don't make sense to you.
and on a random side note, are you familiar with the comedian julie sweeney? she had a very awesome one woman show titled "letting go of god" that i think might resonate with you. i don't think the dvd has been released yet, but i was able to watch the entire film in clips on youtube.com
Beta- I don't blame you for being cautious - it's a big commitment. Especially when it's that important to you. Good luck in your search and I hope that you find the right place to take refuge.
zombiegirl- I did see Sweeney's "Letting go of God". So funny and I could identify with a lot of it.
The way I used to see it, taking refuge is a decision one should take with the heart.
Thinking about it is not ever going to solve the issue.
I took that decision twice; the first time in a zen-group, the second time in a therevada-group.
Both times I was wrong.
That is to say; after some years I left the first group and after I joined the second group it soon fell apart completely (not because of me joining, ha..).
I tried to follow my heart; taking refuge and giving it back again; and I tried to trust the outcome no matter how absurd it looks.
I have no regrets about it.
Maybe my lesson out of it is that it isn’t such a big deal; not taking refuge; taking refuge; dropping the whole thing.
You will always be free.
I have noticed quite a few of the women seem rather besotted with a couple of the lamas, but I haven't seen anything the lamas do to encourage this, although they are very kind. And I suppose it's natural to be emotional when you've perhaps had a hard life (as many of the women have) and finally find your spiritual "home".
As for the New Agey types, and people with somewhat odd beliefs, they're always going to be about. Buddhism attracts them
The only experience I've had that has felt like someone imposing their view on me was a lady who is heavily into Indian Yoga and was telling me that I could heal myself if I wanted to (being chronically ill and in pain, I didn't really appreciate being told that). But then I found out she isn't even a Buddhist! She's a Hindu who likes to come to the sangha for teachings (not that I'm dissing Hindus either - every religion has them).
But after I talked to her, I got talking to this guy who's an orthopaedic surgeon, and he didn't impose his view on me, thankfully.
I think the problem is my wariness and lack of confidence when confrontational people try to impose their views on me. But the experienced teachers and lamas don't do that anyway. I have heard they can be strict, but to me they've always been very kind. Presumably they are sensitive to the student's needs.
Which is why adhering to them can be unskillful, in my own experience. Because if our beliefs are not always evolving with more experience (which is where the practice lies, not in words), then perhaps we are not in touch with reality.
I was raised Catholic, and grew up expecting things to go my way based on prayer. I would be consumed with fear when things "fell apart", or minimally, did not meet my expectations. This thinking was based on what people told me and what I read- all based on belief, not experience, and certainly not practice.
I think your awareness about dogmas and belief can be beneficial, however, worrying not. All I can say is that this practice (meditation and mindfulness) offers a greater awareness of belief systems altogether, whether it is "religious", secular or otherwise, and give more insight into the sangha.
What people share at my sangha is essentially an expression of their own experience with the practice. We have four long time lay practicioners that rotate in facilitating. Personally, I feel its more beneficial and more comfortable with this than one teacher.
Best of luck to you.
If you feel like you are not sure whether to dedicate yourself to a tradition, or specific vows, but you want to take refuge to help you practice, maybe buy a little Buddha statue and take refuge on your own without taking specific vows. I think that can help someone have the benefits of taking refuge. You trust in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
Consider it.
Its understandable to be weary of any sangha, teacher or tradition that claims to be the "only way" to (insert destination here).
I then decided to follow a particular school, many years after that.
I don't think it really matters diddly-squat which tradition you decide to adhere to. The bottom line is, do you have what it takes to make Buddhism your calling?
Pure and simple.
(Just the way I like it......)
Why is taking refuge important? And why are you reluctant to do it? Would it make you more "brainwashable"?
Taking refuge is good and encouraged, but be "sensible" that it's your inner triple gem that you are relying upon. Even though one may take refuge under the most influential and great buddhism master of the galaxy but failed to acknowledge the inner triple gem and meditate on it, you still cycling inside the samsara, although you may confidently feel that you are not one of them. Nonetheless, it is a blessing planted and congratulation! :rockon:
Remember it is your own journey and you will find your way. Lama Chime teaches that the practice is the key to everything - that one should not be moved by what he says, or others say, about you, good or bad. If you have a lama as your teacher, perhaps you will find that he is the centre of a mandala that is ever-changing for you - you might not get what you want very often but if you make yourself aware of what is going on, you will find that the people who come towards you and the situations you encounter with and without the lama are precisely what you need to help you to understand and see more deeply...and to live your own life, on your own spiritual road, separately from any lama and his/her or your sangha, in the way that has always been your own - with more inner peace, mental and emotional balance, and sometimes joy. But mostly you will gradually begin to see, more and more, the illusions you yourself live within and for...and that most of life itself is projections and most people live inside illusions all the time. Seeing beyond all of that is the key to real freedom. Not being afraid of seeing things or about how others may or may not influence you is another key. That is the way of a spiritual warrior. Remember 'Chime' means 'deathless' and Lama Chime is from E. Tibet - where the Khampas were; he comes from a long line of warriors and spiritual warriors; find out what his lineage is and who his two uncles (also his teachers) were. The lineage of a teacher is very important if you want to know who is right for you as a teacher.
@Ada_B -- Based on the background you lay out, I see no reason to expect some mindless flip-flop into Buddhism. The so-called ego is all that any of us has to work with in spiritual endeavor, no matter how refined the catcalls may be. When you trust the ego, then trust it ... and practice. When you distrust the ego, then distrust it ... and practice.
The following is just my take: From start to finish and end to end, spiritual endeavor is just advertising that whispers, "Come here, little boy/girl. I've got a bit of candy for you." Naturally our moms and dads have warned us about "strangers" and their wiles, so the invitation makes us edgy.
Some advertising campaigns are laid out in aid of a particular institution or goal. Some say you can't have the candy without supporting some church or temple or kissing one ring or another. Buddhism too has an institutional structure to guide its participants' footsteps. It has its ne'er-do-wells and con (wo)men. Anyone who has been through the come-to-Jesus meat-grinder you describe is well-advised to be wary. Be as wary as you like ... and practice.
As to taking the precepts, I would say do it. One of the scariest and hardest things to realize in practice is that Buddhism does not exist for some imperative, other-worldly reason. Buddhism has precisely zero authority. Buddhism exists because you exist ... period. Buddhism suggests that if you make a mistake, you make some effort to investigate and correct it. If Buddhism is a mistake, correct it. If the precepts turn out to be a mistake, correct it. There is no pope and no Bible and no responsibility other than what you bring to the table. You ... are... responsible. This is pretty spooky at first: Not having an authority. So we create authorities, we create barriers, we create problems that someone or something else knows best about. Yet even with such a two-faced approach (I am afraid of what I long for), we practice. We practice until we are more comfortable with the fact that there is no other authority. This is not some revolutionary or anti-establishment assertion. It is just a fact: Your life, your choice ... it's very simple AND it can scare the shit out of us.
Nevertheless, we move forward. Acting and correcting. Acting and correcting. Acting and correcting. We make commitments and refine them, make commitments and refine them, make commitments and refine them. It can all seem pretty energetic and daunting. Mom and dad have warned us about strangers and personal responsibility can seem pretty strange.
Take the precepts. Precepts are a tool for acknowledging our inability and unwillingness to keep the precepts. That focus and investigation builds strength ... even if we fail, over and over again. Take the precepts. Buddhism just means you ... personal, intimate you. What the hell ... if you could extricate yourself from the fundamentalist Christian thicket, Buddhism should be a walk in the park, assuming its directions and suggestions turn out to be bogus.
I know, I know ... you don't want to make another mistake. Welcome to Club Humanity. But the fact is, you cannot know ahead of time what is a mistake and what is not. And when you think about it, which have you learned more from -- your successes or your failures?
Buddhism just means you. Take care of yourself. Don't waste time being afraid you'll goof. Goofs R Us. People who worry about being wrong end up making about the same number of mistakes as those who tiptoe through life's offerings, always trying to be right.
Go ahead. Take the precepts. There is nothing saying you can't change your mind later.
In the meantime, practice.
Your life, your choice.
Best wishes.
This thread dates back to january.
How is it @Ada_B ?
Did you do it?
still haven't formally taken refuge, but I think I am becoming perhaps more confident in my practice, without feeling the need to have it validated by some "expert". I wasn't able to go to a three day retreat this weekend, with my sangha, but my lay teacher went and she always comes back with tons of notes from Lama Chime Rinpoche. So next week's class could be interesting. Even second-hand, his teachings are always very inspiring.
I particularly appreciate his sensitivity towards those of us with families to look after, and how he talks of our families and children being our teachers. He helps me to realise that this lifestyle of mine (as a mum at home with kids) is my path, and not just some distraction from my path. My disabled son, and mother particularly, present challenges that have had a profound effect on me. When someone needs you, really needs you, to help them in their life, and when you cannot put yourself first because circumstances simply do not allow it, then you really learn to close the gap between yourself and others. When my son is happy, I'm happy; when my mother is happy, then I'm happy.
With so much in my life to challenge my practice, I don't know why I always seem to be looking for something more. Perhaps because learning Bodhicitta seems easier when the people we help are not so close (and therefore, less able to get under our skin and annoy us at times). As Lama Chime said (paraphrased), loving the world is easy; loving your relatives is not quite so easy!
I'm at one of those crossroads in your life, when you don't know which way it will go. I have completed my degree course and a post-grad course. But I have decided now is not the time to do an MA, and I am still quite unwell (I have a form of arthritis), as well as having caring responsibilities. So getting a job is not appropriate, and many voluntary jobs are still too much for me. So I don't know what is going to happen. But life has a tendency of finding you things to do, if you are open to it. Perhaps the greatest lesson I am learning is to have patience and take my time.
Thanks for sharing!
And I guess we're all in this same place: trying to trust the way our life is going. I like that one.
Families; you gotta love 'em, but you don't gotta like 'em
If Buddha refers to Sangha he talks about the 8 kind of people. 4 on a path and four 4 who already have attained one of the fruits of liberation.
The first person is the person who strives earnest to walk a way of not harming and to liberation but he has not attained the first fruit (insight of a stream enter). The second is one who already had loosed the lower fetters (such as doubt in the Dharma, wrong idea of self ...). Form the moment he has attained it he is called a noble one and in striving for the next fruit he is the third person, one who strives for the next fruit.
All this persons are very important for our way, as they might have the possibility to help us to come forward.
If we like to make progress its first of all good that there are people who like to walk the same way (have the same intention, right intention) and its good to listen to those who have reached a fruit already, as they would know more about what to do.
For somebody who have not reached a fruit jet, it is difficult to know who is one of the noble already, but there is no problem in going to refuge to them even not seen already.
As for the first person, there is also no problem to seek refuge in them, it means that you seek for support of those who also have the same intention to strive for not harming and liberation.
It makes no sense to be attached by personal communities or people judging them if they would be Sangha or not. But its important to keep Sangha in mind. Also if one shares Dana (gifts) to the community or to a teacher, its good to notice mental (or even declare) that it is a gift for the Sangha. So one benefit is that we loose some degrees of attachments to individuals and groups and we also would not have the "danger" of mistakenly supporting the wrong.
Its very useful to be attached to the Sangha (like Buddha had taught about) but not beneficial to be attached to a personal Sangha (my Sangha, the group of a school or what ever discrimination)
Going for refuge is the first step into the way of liberation.
*smile*
But for the moment, I am happy to be an admirer rather than a disciple. "When the student is ready, the teacher appears" as they say in the Tibetan tradition.
it might be that there are strange cults but refuge to the three germs is everywhere the same. Beware of the Dharma dealer. Regarding the teacher, that is a different chapter.
This article might be good regarding teacher. Its non sectarian and has the same references as there are also in the Tibetan tradition.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/power_of_judgment.html
*smile*
I don't feel the need to seek out a teacher or a tradition to "take refuge" in. I take refuge in myself.
I come from an athiest background though so I find the idea of going to a temple off putting. Each to their own though.... :-)
Good luck Ada_B. I hope you find what you're looking for.
How can we be a refuge to our self when it has always been the apparitions of our mind that have caused our torment ?
I sympathize with your hesitancy to take refuge again. Until you are ready to truely bow to your next teacher, you can just take refuge in your practise.
Not the "YOU" doing the practise but just simply the practise itself.
If it's appropriate, this will eventually evolve to include your teacher as well.
Me too. I still haven't decided which school to follow yet though.
I find the benefit of observing my teacher to be worth far more than I could learn without such a role model. If find the opportunity to practice compassion just as easy to find within the sangha as within my other life-areas.
In between year 4 and year 9, I have a lot of indecision about the lack of a "perfect fit" between the dharma group and myself. And after that, well, it just stopped being a problem for me. It all just what is it is. And the practice is observing it all.
You might find the teachings of Pema Chodron useful (available in book/cd/mp3) .. both my sister and I found that being a Westerner, Pema Chodron could put things in terms we easily understood. I think that her teachings have done more to further my understanding and to further inner growth, than my dear local Lama. Yet both my sister (who lives in another city) and I still value the live teacher and the live sangha.