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Have you lied before?
footiam
Veteran
Have you broken one of the Buddhist precepts - Thou should not lie?
Don't you think it is necessary to lie sometimes?
Don't you think it is necessary to lie sometimes?
0
Comments
It's part of Right Speech/2nd precept. Nowhere in any sutta/sutra does the Buddha advocate lying. At all.
he doesn't encourage it, recommend it or give any feasible excuse for it.
The best things are to either be honest, or remain silent.
And let's please(!) not get into the old chestnut of saving Jews from the Nazis by lying about whether you're harbouring them.
When you actually find yourself in the situation of being someone harbouring Jews from the Nazis, feel free to comment.
Just to back my statements up
When is it truly ever necessary to lie? Example?
shhh. don't tell.
http://www.open.ac.uk/openlearn/history-the-arts/culture/philosophy/lie-or-not-lie
I tend to concur with Aristotle, that lying is not legitimate unless over-ridden by some higher virtue, such as the lying to the Nazis to save a Jew example. But also that one should endeavour to avoid the necessity of lying, if at all possible.
Unless of course you have an imaginary boyfriend named Hubert.....:)
The majority of times we lie, are fraught with trivia, ego and platitudinous motives.
That is to say, no reasons at all.
In other words - you purport to know so MUCH about the Buddha's teachings - put your money where your mouth is, and find the source of your comment.
Like I did?
Thanks.
try the dhamapada, any life of the buddha book should have it, go to your temple and ask a monk, your the one making statements that cant be backed up, and no i dont have the page im not buddhagoogle.com
i'm a horrible liar. i get asked too often about it and i can't stand the questions or the way that guys tend to seem sad when i turn them down "just because" so... since i can't tell them, "actually, it's not you, it's me! i'm a lesbian!" i tell them all about my girlfriend lia in the guise of my boyfriend "leon". it is a lie, but it seems more honest than just denying the existence of someone so special to me. it seems to be an answer they are more content with as well as it doesn't hurt their feelings to know i am already taken.
In that sense it's not even logically possible to allow a lie.
The obvious objection is that humans are perfectly capable of lying. If truth is defined as "a reality shared by a group of people", the lie would simply be a way to change reality as perceived by the group.
I cannot help but to add, that the Nazi-hypothesis isn't that stupid after all - it's used by at least one famous philosopher: Løgstrup (in another context though - it was about the spontaneous manifestation of life).
I think he used it because he experienced the WWW2, and everyone else at his time had - so it was a very strong picture he formed. That was necessary to emphasize his point. For us today, and maybe especially for non-Europeans who don't have family who still remembers the war and who don't see the many memorials over killed civilians which are found in so many places, the situation may seem bizarre and no more relevant than any other dictators-police-hypothesis.
I have made no statements I can't back up.
Im fact, I backed my statements up BY POSTING A LINK!!
If we all have to post links, then I don't see why you shouldn't do it. Otherwise all your statements are frankly, discreditable.
are you so certain that the whole world would turn against you if you were honest?
Long is the night to the wakeful; long is the league to the weary; long is the samsara to the foolish who know not the Sublime Truth.
He who is stained (with defilements) without self-control and truthfulness, is not worthy of wearing the yellow robes.
The one, who takes wrong to be right and right to be wrong, and who thinks always of sensual pleasures, cannot be successful in finding the Truth.
To cease from all evil, to cultivate good, to purify one's mind: This is the advice of all Buddhas.
The intelligent person who leads other not falsely but lawfully and impartially, who is a guardian of the law, is called ``one who abides by the law'' (dhammamattha).
Not by a shaven head does an undisciplined man, who utters lies, become a monk. How will one who is full of desire and greed be a monk?
The Bhikkhu who is controlled in tongue, who speaks wisely, who is not puffed up, who explains the meaning and the text, - sweet, indeed, is his speech.
What have you got?
do you know for sure, for sure, that this would be a factor against you?
I don't know about where you live, but sexual discrimination is against the law, here.
discrimination based upon sexual orientation is legal in my state. even if this weren't the case, my situation is such that i am considered an "independent contractor" so i could simply stop being scheduled without ever being fired.
That discrimination on sex should be legal in your state is nothing short of outrageous, by the way.....
Period.
But the onus would be on you to show that you have been victimised, harassed, bullied or that your position has been compromised because of your sexual persuasion. I don't want to drag this off-topic, but you need to do more research.
if only for you to "Thine own self be true".
The benefit of your job to your partner is not created by the lying. The lying is not the cause. Or at least not the sole cause. This is why it seems that the lying is causing good things. The cause is your caring and so forth.
In the same sense slaughtering animals is not the cause of our health. Or not the sole cause. The good cause of our health is taking care of our needs and caring for ourselves. Its regrettable that animals are slaughtered.
Hunting violates the first precept, but actually it causes less suffering by far than factory farming. Deer starve. And are free while they live. Chickens forced in crates to lay eggs suffer, not that I have any idea what really happens but I know the practices to castrate steers and so forth are pretty painful they tie a string aand let their balls rot off because its too expensive to do it otherwise.
Technically you are only lying if someone asks if you are a lesbian. You could say no to their face but be thinking in your mind that 'I won't be pigeon holed as X'. One theory is that we are all bisexual to a degree. I am attracted to some men but the actual sexual action of men is very gross to me. Still I can be intrigued if not aroused.
yes, i know. last i heard, discrimination on sexuality was still permitted in 29/50 states. those are pretty sad odds when you consider that The American Psychological Association declassified homosexuality as a mental disorder in the 1970's. america only claims to have a separation of church and state, they really do not practice it.
as far as my job goes, it has some definite pros and some definite cons. i don't think that it is the end of my career search, but for now, it is helping me to get on my feet. it is extremely obnoxious to go back in the closet after 7 years of being open about myself, but i do feel it is the best decision for me. regardless of being an independent contractor, i might feel differently if it were in the books that i could not be fired for such. i'm not really condoning lying because i really don't like that i do, i'm just being honest about my life situation. at the present, the risk is enough to keep my mouth shut. i wish it was as simple as just not saying anything, but i always say stupid things in conversation like how i live in a one bedroom that i share with another person... people tend to put two and two together.
http://www.hrc.org/1085.htm
edit:
perhaps you are confused because it is illegal on the state level? but this doesn't cover general employment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_LGBT_civil_rights_January_2011b.svg
this is your answer federica
That in itself, is completely dishonest.
You think you're honest - but you're not. And the person you hurt more by your prevaricating evasion - is you.
All I can say is try to live as mindfully as you can, and I hope your problems do not escalate or make life difficult for you.
I wish you well, in all things.
I almost never lie. I slipped and told a pretty small (but quite unnessesary) one within the past six months. It seems weird and really quite clumsy of me to have done that. I'm embarrassed, and I struggle with why I did it.
You mentioned the Dhammapada as a source. I went to look at it. I found nothing (as you suggested) where the Buddha says it's ok to lie, but several verses where he maintains he didn't. I gave you the posts as an example. You however, insist on being evasive and argumentative, and prevaricating and projecting.
I don't want to talk about you. "You" don't interest me.
I want you to come up with what you claim and maintain the Buddha said about it being acceptable to lie in certain circumstances.
You said:
"federica i completely admire your devotion to truth but your statement about the buddha never condoning lieing is completely false almost a lie in itself, you obviously havent read scripture, as its in the most basic teachings, the translation of the precept, not lieing being the first or smallest crime is NO LIEING UNLESS IT PREVENTS A GREATER CRIME, like stealing, killing an animal or doing drugs..."
I want you to prove it. It's a reasonable enough request, particularly of someone who claims to have been a practsing Monk... so in other words it's a composite of some things you're trying to put into practice that you've picked up here and there, and may be mistaken about, but they sound good to you?
Fair enough.
But don't claim you are one thing or another, and then fail completely to back it up. Source?
What book are you referring to?
The bible is old, yet you claim to follow it. The suttas are old, yet you claim to have studied them...
You are utterly ridiculous and your arguments just too flawed for me to take seriously. Give me any part of the Buddha's teachings that are not relevant to today's life?
And yes - I need a reliable and quoted source.
I can see you squirming out of this one already.... "Apocraphyl (sic) texts"? You mean you don't believe any of the suttas to be authentic, reliable or true? Are you sure you're using the correct term (even though the spelling is inaccurate)?? Bullsplat. You're denying and being evasive.
it is particularly important - if not VITAL - for beginners to be shown texts, quotations, sources and scriptures to back up what you are saying.
And trust me - I'm a stickler for threads being in the appropriate forums. This is dangerously close to being transferred to "general Banter". If only we had a forum titled "Say what you want, I'm just making all this up anyway!"
That would be right up your street.....:rolleyes:
yes, it is definitely a tough issue since my government doesn't support me like it should (imo, anyways). but even if lying in this situation is understandable (perhaps, still not justifiable), i do know that one of the obvious draw backs is that even if the laws changed tomorrow, i would have to keep lying lest i look like... well, a liar. lol. i've already fallen in this hole. this is why i keep it to a minimum. everything i say about my significant other is the same except that it's a "she" instead of a "he".
do you suppose he had a reason for his encouragement?
do you believe he would ask the impossible of his followers?
Bear in mind that his teachings are one thing, our choice of following them or not, is quite another.
if people lie, it's their choice.
This does not mean the Buddha's teachings are an absolute stance. if they were, they'd be a command. They're not.
so the 'absolute stance' is one we choose to see it as, not his....
It seems eminently sensible to agree to disagree, as I actually dislike war, so I'm with you there.
And may I just point out (in as friendly manner as one can, through writing alone) that it's FedricA, and I'm female....? Thanks.
Chill, relax, be well.
I think it can be acceptable to lie if by that you make somebody laugh. Just exaggerate an experience you had or something. For that purpuse it is not bad I think. That's just one example, there are probably more, but not so widely used. Lying to the cops to keep your friend from being caught, for example hahaha.
But since I'm back again: Lying to the cops is not usualy nessesary. One can simply refuse to answer.