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Who says that Buddha was enlightened? - and other questions
Who says, that Buddha was enlightened? How can we know? Do we, accepting this "truth", not just blindly follow anything which was repeated over centuries? Do we not just blindly follow teachings of a so-called enlightened person, who maybe never has reached this state of mind? It already starts with the question if Buddha was a prince or simply the son of a governor (different sources state different things), it ends with the very different ideas about how Buddhism should be practiced (Zen, Mahayana, Theravada - all very different).
We usually follow a philosophy with a goal in our mind, otherwise we would not start with it. But our whole life is based upon belief. I believe in this or that, in this source or that source, but finally I don't know much. We often believe in other people's belief - we adopt it. I hope I will always keep a little bit of doubt, may it be in religion or science. Why don't we just follow our own daily life experience - the most "close-to-us-knowledge" we can ever have, if we can have any? Do we not give away our responsibility for ourselves following a philosophy which dictates us what we have to do? I don't know. I don't have the impression that Buddhism has such an impact on people regarding their suffering or non-suffering. Sometimes we suffer, sometimes we don't, sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes not at all. I think Buddhism also forgets about the importance of suffering. I would not like to have missed some suffering in my life. Buddhists always want to get rid of suffering. But sometimes we need suffering to move our bottoms.
We also need to suffer to understand other people who suffer as well. We also need to suffer to value the times in which we do not suffer. So why do you always want to get rid of it?
We usually follow a philosophy with a goal in our mind, otherwise we would not start with it. But our whole life is based upon belief. I believe in this or that, in this source or that source, but finally I don't know much. We often believe in other people's belief - we adopt it. I hope I will always keep a little bit of doubt, may it be in religion or science. Why don't we just follow our own daily life experience - the most "close-to-us-knowledge" we can ever have, if we can have any? Do we not give away our responsibility for ourselves following a philosophy which dictates us what we have to do? I don't know. I don't have the impression that Buddhism has such an impact on people regarding their suffering or non-suffering. Sometimes we suffer, sometimes we don't, sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes not at all. I think Buddhism also forgets about the importance of suffering. I would not like to have missed some suffering in my life. Buddhists always want to get rid of suffering. But sometimes we need suffering to move our bottoms.
We also need to suffer to understand other people who suffer as well. We also need to suffer to value the times in which we do not suffer. So why do you always want to get rid of it? 0
Comments
Edit - One more thing, we as people who are able to understand Buddha's teachings know what suffering is and don't have to experience more to know what others feel. Life is suffering, or in other words you are born as a human creating suffering. Following Buddha's teachings helps rid that nasty habit and our empathy and memories of self-induced pain are still with us.
You're looking at it all way too theoretically. Buddhism implies engagement, it is about practice and indeed about reflection on our daily life as well.
If u want to take the rational position, its a matter of "qualitie of the product".
a) The buddha took the suffering/existence matter in a complete way. The big picture. Many philosophers/psychologists had been talking about life, mind,etc. Mostly they just stick to such tiny anecdotic behavior, or incomplete models compared to buddhism...
b) He wasnt just words, he create new theories, new concepts, trully radical terms to his times..well still its pretty radical. In my opinion this is a key factor to difference crap from genius...i was reading the other day that about 2000 people in the world are saying to be the reincarnation of jesus. I ask.. how many of them can say something new to the world?, besides mixing religions,twisting words, and mixing old concepts passing them as their own.
c) He practice exceptionally. He create new practices, his meditation was remarkable. He got to a level that no other human reached with meditation.
Some may ask, how do we know its true? Its impossible to say, but when he explains it, he does it with such coherence, with such clarity.. you can tell he trully understands what he is talking about.
d)About if it works or not..what i say is that it trully works, but its hard get to a level where u can say: ohh this surpases by far what a nice spa session will do to me, or what 1hr of sports can make me feel, or wow my days are really different.
So, yes, i think he was trully enlightened, because of the clarity and qualitie of the dhamma exposed.
Metta,
and sorry for my english
With Wicca, if the Goddess is not real, their beliefs crumble.
With Taoism, if the Tao is not actually real, their beliefs crumble.
With Buddhism, if Buddha was not actually real, it does not affect the Buddhist teachings. A philosophy isn't based on a person, its based on ideas. Buddhist ideas, its teachings, the Dharma, is not in need of the Buddha.
But seriously, Buddhism isn't just about the Buddha. It's about the triple-gem, the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha.
Don't believe the Buddha? Practice the dhamma to find out if what he said was true. There are signposts all along the path. You can pass signposts like the calming of the mind, the nimitas, the jhanas, first, second, third, fourth jhanas, you can pass a decisive signpost like stream entry and beyond. And all the way there are many more signposts in between. So to gain "faith" in the path, it is required that you walk the path. The more signposts you experience, the more your confidence in the path grows.
You don't like practicing the path? All too hard for you? Well, why not seek out the third of the triple-gem? Go to the Sangha and ask them questions. Talk to them about the Buddha and the Dhamma. Ask them if enlightenment is true and if so, how do we know it's true? If you're really daring, go into the forests of Thailand, Burma or Sri Lanka and far flung parts in other countries. Seek out fully enlightened beings. After all, if the Buddha was enlightened and the Buddha-dhamma is true, then there must be enlightened beings in the world today. Seek them out and talk to them. Ask then how they know they are awakened (I prefer this term to enlightened). Ask them how they became awakened. Ask them about the path to awakening. You get the idea.
So there you go. Lots of things you can do to sort these questions out in your mind. As for me, however, I seem to have been born with an innate faith in the Buddha/Dhamma/Sangha and have experienced a few very small signposts along the way. Maybe I'll experience more before the breakup of the body, maybe not. Who knows.
Enjoy the path!
Well, as to the OP,
See, if you think the Buddha was the son of a governor and not a prince, or even if you think he was just another person(that is, if you think probable) please do think... No one's stopping you... If you think it is probable that The Buddha did not exist, please think so too... But, the huge assortment of texts of Buddhism has to have had AN author(because all profess the same ideology)... And we like to call this author The Buddha or the awakened one simply because the teachings are so profound and yet so simple, and yet true... Follow the stories as just moral stories which make a philosophy easy to understand... AND, if you don't believe the stories about The Buddha, consider the following... If The buddha never existed, then how could all these stories come about? By a practical joker of ancient times?? I think not.. Because no one would be prepared to set out of their houses and travel long places throughout their lives just for creating a joke and making people believe that someone who din't exist existed... And travel was not easy those days too.. So how did all these temples and special places claiming that the Buddha visited the place or did something there come about?? And we can easily find that the texts also compliment these.... AND, you NEED to confirm for yourself The Buddha's teachings by your own practice....
Hope This solves At Least One Doubt,
Metta,
Nidish
However, my thoughts are, how do we know without searching within ourselves?
I say Buddhism gets closer than many other new or old thoughts.
Buddhism is how you approach it, many get confused with it as it could also be a religion, but it is a slow process.
I suggest you start with the basics....
The basics can be found here: http://www.buddhanet.net
Thanks,
Leon
Buddhism is like a science of the mind. It is in no way a philosophy or belief like other religions in which the truth is being told and to be accepted. Like science it isn't just reading old stuff and believing it, it is more important to be able to "duplicate the findings" as it is called in scientific terms. So, investigating the mind from the inside to find out, is what this Buddha guy said really true or is it just a load of .. eh.. dung?
Maybe you had or have physics classes at school. A good teacher not only explains the theory, but also does prepares experiments to show you what he says is really true. You need to do those experiments to really 'believe' in physics. Same for Buddhism. The Buddha adviced to keep on questioning and experimenting. That's also where Buddhisms power is for me. As you might have guessed - I'm a scientist. So I'm very critical and personally never believed things like God, Jesus, sins, whatever, because I couldn't experience them personally. But Buddhism I can. Or at least the parts that I experienced. Because you don't need to understand it all in one go, like you can't understand quantumphysics without a proper foundation.
Also -sadly- a lot of nonsense is written about Buddhism by philosophists who also didn't follow the teachings but only read about them. They came to the exact same conclusions as you did. Suffering is needed to be happy and that kind of philosofical stuff.. Basicly you only need the path as told by the Buddha, but because the mind is so difficult to understand and impossible to describe with words there are so many (also good) books written about it and so much said about it.
Also, watch this if you are interested
Maybe next time you are happy, ask yourself.. WHY are you? If your mind is strong already, you will find that it does not have to do with your previous suffering at all. It is not the contrast between those that creates happiness. Happiness just IS.
Of course, suffering can lead to Buddhism and lead to practice. Yes, it is indeed a part of life, that's true. But it is in no way essential to being happy or something like that. That's why we try to cease the suffering, which is "just" gradually changing a mental thing inside.
Key word in Budhism: Why, why, why, why.
So you had a good start
It's true there are times in most of our lives where we are suffering, and that motivates us to find a better way to live. But a big part of suffering is resistance to change, to clinging. When I look back, the most painful changes in my life turned out to be for the best. The same events in someone else's life might destroy their lives and make it worse.
So suffering is the motivation for us to learn a different way of dealing with the world, for some of us. There is no intrinsic value to suffering. We can struggle with life's problems, laugh and cry and rejoice and grieve without clinging to any of it.
And Buddhism should bring a head full of questions for you. It's the nature of being human that we Buddhists have adorned the message over the centuries with our own bells and whistles.
There are other ways to do all of the above that do not require suffering. If there is another way to do it, that does not involve suffering, then why not do it that way?
Now if you are able to cease that suffering (comming from a broken relationships, addictions, whatever) you can really say you understand the problem and you can understand other persons with that problem so much more.
Of course, broken relationships and addictions are things that appear 'at the surface' of suffering if you look at it from the Buddhist perspective, but the essence is the same.
About happiness through suffering, see my previous post. It turned out a bit long, but yeah.. whatever
Whether Buddha was "enlightened" or not, or any theory or doctrine within the scripture, holds very little reality for me, other than they are words, which are only symbols for aspects of reality. Clinging to words as the reality that they actually symbolize has brought a great deal of unnecessary suffering in experience.
also, suffering never really goes away. i will always have random acts of crap happen to me, so to speak, lol. practicing buddhism will not keep me from running over a nail and getting a flat tire on my way to work. however, buddhism will help change my perceptions and keep me from suffering as a result of such things (like bursting into a bout of anger and screaming pointless obscenities).
i was always taught that struggle in life was good and that we will not grow without it. suffering can help develop compassion for others in similar situations. so you see, the answers you get depend on where you're looking.
Thanks.
The answer (for now) is that we don't know, We only hope and trust and doubt all at the same time.
It is a beautiful journey but it is not necessarily for everyone. Nor is it necessary but if the light of truth, honour and justice speaks to you, it is one very viable route in life.
Best wishes,
Abubu
If you don't have a fudge sundae and the Buddha was/was not enlightened, you still don't have a fudge sundae.
But you can order one...every Buddha knows that.
So finally the real topic its coming up
U should be dedicated to understand the concepts of desire and attachment, and then move on to other questions. If u dont do that, then all becomes very confused.
a)
"And what, monks, is right effort?
[i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
[ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
[iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
[iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."
So you see, buddhism aint about eliminating all desire. Without any desire there is no practice. Without practice there is no progress.
b)
"No... There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons passion. No passion-obsession gets obsessed there.[4] There is the case where a monk considers, 'O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that those who are noble now enter & remain in?' And as he thus nurses this yearning for the unexcelled liberations, there arises within him sorrow based on that yearning. With that he abandons resistance. No resistance-obsession gets obsessed there.[5] There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."[6]
This is also telling that even generating desire to achieve something good, still u may suffer if u do it incorrectly (clinging, or giving incorrect attention).
So in a practical way, its better to talk of an initial DETERMINATION TO OVERCOME SOMETHING, and then sticking to the practice of overcoming, instead of thinking inside of the practice "im letting go", "now im becoming this", "now im getting somewhere", "i desire to become this".
I think this Dhamma talk can be a good introduction to Buddhism for you. I just stumbled upon it.
It answers a lot of your questions in a better way than I could do. It adresses craving (what to aim for and what not), the importance of questioning, and some other subjects. Even touches an aspect of karma.
I hope it can help you. But if you feel like there is no truth in what is being told in this topic and in this movie, maybe Buddhism is not the right way for you. It works for us, but that doesn't mean it works for everybody. But whatever you do, please don't give up your search in life.
Love
Sabre