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Not being a jerk [official admin thingy]
Linc
Site ownerDetroit Moderator
We just had a new member who over the course of a day or two made a nuisance of himself and got banned.
We typically have a zero-discussion policy on bannings and discussion closings because it's simply not conducive to positive results. However, we welcome private concerns and the flagging of posts (the 'Flag' link above every comment - it works!) - it helps us inform those decisions. The moderators (Jason & Federica) and I often talk about what's going on privately and make course-corrections along the way.
This time, I want to broach the topic of a particular ban because I think it really highlights our primary rule here: "Don't be a jerk" (aka "talk like you're in our living room").
A Nichiren Buddhist joined and started repeatedly bringing up the Lotus Sutra. Lest there be any misunderstanding, I want to clearly discuss why he got banned.
His belief that "only the Lotus Sutra is valid" was fine. Annoying to most of us, perhaps, but not an offense. The problem started with how he chose to express that belief.
First, he started a "discussion" on his belief that was really just a defiant blog post. This isn't a blogging site. You have many options like Blogger or Wordpress available to you if all you want to do is write diatribes. A discussion implies engagement and 2-way exchange of ideas, and that's what this site is about. I question the motives of someone whose ideas are so fixed when they join a discussion community.
Second, his comments were obstinant and tone-deaf. Let me paraphrase how I interpreted several of his comments: "Your belief is invalid because it's founded on crap, this is the only right thing to believe, so here's the real truth." Now the question is "but if that what he thought, how can you say that without getting banned?" It's really not difficult: "I only recognize the authority of X, this is what X says about that, and therefore my belief is that the answer is Y." It's affirming your belief vs. disparaging others.
If you understand the world of difference between those 2 approaches, then you will always find yourself among friends here, even when you sharply disagree. If this member understood it, I'm sure there could have been many more interesting discussions to be had.
We typically have a zero-discussion policy on bannings and discussion closings because it's simply not conducive to positive results. However, we welcome private concerns and the flagging of posts (the 'Flag' link above every comment - it works!) - it helps us inform those decisions. The moderators (Jason & Federica) and I often talk about what's going on privately and make course-corrections along the way.
This time, I want to broach the topic of a particular ban because I think it really highlights our primary rule here: "Don't be a jerk" (aka "talk like you're in our living room").
A Nichiren Buddhist joined and started repeatedly bringing up the Lotus Sutra. Lest there be any misunderstanding, I want to clearly discuss why he got banned.
His belief that "only the Lotus Sutra is valid" was fine. Annoying to most of us, perhaps, but not an offense. The problem started with how he chose to express that belief.
First, he started a "discussion" on his belief that was really just a defiant blog post. This isn't a blogging site. You have many options like Blogger or Wordpress available to you if all you want to do is write diatribes. A discussion implies engagement and 2-way exchange of ideas, and that's what this site is about. I question the motives of someone whose ideas are so fixed when they join a discussion community.
Second, his comments were obstinant and tone-deaf. Let me paraphrase how I interpreted several of his comments: "Your belief is invalid because it's founded on crap, this is the only right thing to believe, so here's the real truth." Now the question is "but if that what he thought, how can you say that without getting banned?" It's really not difficult: "I only recognize the authority of X, this is what X says about that, and therefore my belief is that the answer is Y." It's affirming your belief vs. disparaging others.
If you understand the world of difference between those 2 approaches, then you will always find yourself among friends here, even when you sharply disagree. If this member understood it, I'm sure there could have been many more interesting discussions to be had.
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
That's better I guess.
:-/
People have got to start taking responsibility for what they post. Moderators are here to ensure the site is a friendly, welcoming place for new Buddhists to come in and post, and find information, healthy debate and animated discussion.
It grips my doo-doos when Moderators get criticised and accused of heavy-handedness in moderating, when in fact, if some members watched what they posted (or perhaps just shut up) the problem wouldn't escalate.
You expect and require us to Moderate, but very often, the issue could have been avoided or played down, if some posts by existent members were more mindful.
The best way to "kill a troll" is to not feed the flames.
If everyone agreed to ignore a jerk, the jerk would deflate and become a joke, instead.
I'm saying no more.
On the other hand, I have more than once been called a jerk in the past.
First, he does this on practically every forum he joins, as well as on his own blogs. I think banning him was the right decision for this forum.
Second, please don't judge all Nichiren Buddhists by the behavior of one of our bad apples. We don't all behave that way.
Namaste, Engyo
Now I'm much less depressed.
And thank you very much @Federica and @Lincoln. I didn't mind at all that the guy had his own thread about the superiority of the Lotus Sutra; that was his thread. When he started interrupting everyone else's threads with responses that amounted to "whatever your problem is, don't worry about solving it... that teaching is inferior and unworthy of your time, there is only the supreme golden words of Shakyamuni in the Lotus Sutra and no other teaching can lead one to Buddhahood!" and then defending that view in someone else's thread, completely obfuscating the original post's questions... oy!
To prevent you from asking why, I think you should have told him what the problem was and worked it out. We're partially here to learn, no?
What's he gunna do, go to EVERY thread, and relate EVERYthing to our failure to read the Lotus sutra and understand the truth and ect.
Even if he did, it would be funny, and we might learn something.
That is all.
Trolls are usually making trouble on purpose, but this guy was making trouble because he doesn't know any better. Though I'm glad he's gone, we should still have compassion for his ignorance. Clinging so hard, being so blind, it will be difficult for him to free himself, don't you think? It's sad.
I think we assign the "troll" title too easily. It's easy to label someone a troll. It's harder to try and analyze why they might behave in that way.
Though with all that said, I think you guys did the right thing. Hopefully this will give him some space to look back at what he tried to convey here and rethink his methodology.
Thanks admins
I have experience with this individual going back a decade; this is his normal behavior on any Buddhist board. He belongs to a very fundamentalist Fuju Fuse school of Nichiren Buddhism called Kempon Hokke. I suppose you could call him a troll, but not in the normal interwebz meaning of the term. I think he sees being banned from Buddhist sites as a badge of honor and a justification of his views. As far as returning and rethinking his methodology, I wouldn't hold my breath. What you saw here was fairly mild compared to some of the interactions he has had with other Nichiren Buddhists (whom he sees as actually heretical rather than just misguided).
Namaste, Engyo
I see quite a lot of people knocking him, but no one actually able to discredit him in a straightforward, honest manner.
I am wondering why this is??? Maybe it is because you cannot??
One can not use belief to prove belief. The only thing that this individual would accept was that his beliefs said they were the only truth, not to believe in any other truth. All traditions of Buddhism teach what they claim is the path to enlightenment, but none of them can be proven as the authentic words of the Buddha, much less proven to be true and the others false. For that matter every religion in the world purports to have the truth, yet many of them are vastly different. And so can the words of religious texts themselves, making claims of truth and superiority, be taken at face value? Not really.
Only by putting teachings into practice can the truth be known, not by clinging to the words themselves. The individual's clinging was not a problem, but his putting-down of all others and continued interference in other threads by disrespecting the beliefs, traditions and practices of others. This particular forum is a place where all are considered equal and expected to act with respect for each other, and when people fail to do that the moderators/admins must step in and take steps to keep the forum suitable for respectful conversation and debate.
Very well said.
You know how you try to behave IRL? There you go.....
I would say 5 precepts /8Fold Path covers pretty much all that's necessary.
Post as if you were in our parlour having tea with our grandma.
Someone suggested having a list of bannable offenses, or a system in place so that people are aware that they are in danger of being banned. You do specify precepts and such, but newcomers might not know what those are or what they mean. This is more what I was thinking:
Code of Conduct
1. Respect the Forum Staff: We provide a service in our free time to keep the forums running efficiently. We are all volunteers. Feedback is welcome in the NewBuddhist.com section and this is also the place to request assistance with forum software issues. If you believe an error has been made in moderation or other staff actions, please post politely and help us understand your perspective.
2. Adult Content, Violence, Illegal Activity: Messages containing violent, sexually oriented, or illegal content or links to sites with this content will either be deleted or saved as evidence. Messages with links to or suggesting illegal activity will also be deleted. Posting or linking to any of these could result in a ban.
3. Trolling, Attacks and Flaming: These are always forbidden.
* Trolling is posting in a way that provokes emotional responses.
* Attacks and derogatory terms of any kind are not welcome. This includes references to other operating systems and the companies that produce them.
* Flames are messages that personally attack or call any people names or otherwise harass. These, along with any generally condescending posts will be edited or removed at the moderators discretion.
* If a thread is flame-bait (appears to be intended to start an argument or is likely to cause an argument rather than enhance discussion, as in trolling), it will be locked or removed without notice. Individual flame-bait comments in a post may be deleted or edited at the moderators' discretion.
* If the thread turns into an argument, it can be closed to further comment or removed without notice. Sometimes a moderator may delete certain portions in order to keep the discussion going, but that is not always possible since we are a staff of volunteers with limited time and numbers.
4. Spam (unsolicited advertising): Spam will be removed and the account posting it will likely be banned. You are allowed to have links to personal sites in your signature and in your profile, and may post them in threads on occasion (just not often, please) as long as the content of the site linked does not include material that violates this code of conduct and if you are not posting any other form of advertising.
5. Profanity: We have users of all age groups and of all tolerance levels where profanity is concerned. Right speech is required in this forum.
6. Marijuana and Recreational Drug Use: These two topics have caused serious problems in the past and are now forbidden topics in the forums. Please find another venue to exercise your freedom of speech on these topics.
7. Thread Drifting/Steering: Please keep discussions on topic. Topics that do not belong in the main sections belong in General Banter, if they fit the posted rules.
8. Report Posts: If you have found a post or receive a private message that you feel is inappropriate or that violates the forum code of conduct, please use the report function to notify staff. Do not attempt to moderate discussions or correct other users yourself.
9. Images: Be prudent in your use of images; they may help to explain something more clearly or indicate a problem you are experiencing better but you have to remember that not everyone has the same bandwidth. If an image is the best way of handling the information, please use thumbnails or keep your image to a small size and less than 100kb.
10. Links: You may post links to sites with content that is acceptable according to this code of conduct. This is most useful when giving tech support and explaining a topic and then linking to a wiki page or Linux site with more information. You may also link to your personal site.
11. Signatures: Forum signatures are limited to three lines of text, 10pt maximum font size. Signature content must conform to the same guidelines as all content in this code of conduct.
12. Avatars: Images must comply with the content guidelines of this code of conduct. A discreet image from your religion is permissible if it is not ostentatious, disruptive, provocative, or for the purposes of proselytising.
13. Multiple Accounts: Users may only have one active account. If you feel you have justification for requiring a new account, please contact an administrator to discuss your situation. Users who have multiple accounts without approval of an administrator may be penalized or banned.
14. Private Messaging: Asking support questions via private messages is strongly discouraged. It is unlikely that users will respond to these requests and it defeats the secondary intent of the forums to be a resource for people seeking assistance using internet searches and forum searches.
15. Editing of posts: When a post breaks guidelines and requires editing in order to bring it back under compliance with this Code of Conduct, the moderator should generally copy the un-edited post or issue an infraction which will keep a copy of the original post in the staff area. Only after the original post is preserved as evidence should the original post be edited. In the private message automatically sent when the infraction is issued the moderator should specify or describe which part of the Code of Conduct was broken.
16. Thread Closing: Staff are not required to do so, but are requested to post an explanation in a thread that is closed when time permits. This is a non-exhaustive list of reasons a thread may be closed, but will give the general idea:
* The thread has run it's course and posts have begun repeating themes
* The thread has degraded into an argument
* The thread topic is a duplicate of another current and active thread
* The thread is very old.
17. Closing posts/thread: If a post/thread would require a lot of work to bring it into compliance, or if editing the violations would result in a nearly blank post/thread, the post/thread should be closed.
18. Staff: Staff are chosen by the site owners. Users who have demonstrated a consistent attitude of friendliness and kindness and who have shown a pattern of helpfulness in their posts may be contacted and invited to serve. Recommendations are made by current staff in the staff forums or other users by private message. All recommendations are considered. Due to time constraints and privacy issues the Forum Council is unlikely to comment publicly on these recommendations.
19. Staff posting and moderating in the same thread: This is generally discouraged. Exceptions include when no one else is available or when content very clearly violates the code of conduct.
20. Appeals: If you have a complaint about a staff action or believe an action was taken in error, the process for dealing with that is to first contact a moderator. You may appeal if you are unsatisfied. After these avenues have been exhausted, you may open a complaint with the Ubuntu Community Council.
(I know a lot of the stuff isn't really applicable, I just slightly modified it from the Ubuntu Forums Policy page.)
Ths situation I think, is fine as it is.
It is fine as it is.
I used to enjoy the age diversity on this site. Two teen members who tended to post interesting OPs (though not always) got banned yesterday, and I don't know why. Can anyone explain?
It was only a suggestion, since I have noticed many members get upset about being banned or having posts deleted. I thought it might be helpful.
Just to reiterate my previous comment I wasn't suggesting a strict code with a committee, etc at all. I just googled "forum rules" or something and picked the first one that came up. It was only a rough approximation.
@Simonthepilgrim I gotta think about that. I hate to stop and have these big to-dos and explanations every time someone decides to piss in our soup. It's exhausting.
But if they are banned it will say Banned by the forum name. In their archived posts. That way a member will know if someone was banned.