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Martial Arts
Is anyone here an active or past martial artist?
I trained in Shaolin Kungfu for two years, and then took up tai chi for a very short while. I wasn't aware of it at the time, but it was actually shaolin kungfu that introduced me to the concept of buddhism and some of the meditation practices (which is pretty cool to look back at, now knowing what it was). Once I leave school I'm going to take up yoga for a few years, and then take up kungfu again.
What do you guys think of martial arts?
I trained in Shaolin Kungfu for two years, and then took up tai chi for a very short while. I wasn't aware of it at the time, but it was actually shaolin kungfu that introduced me to the concept of buddhism and some of the meditation practices (which is pretty cool to look back at, now knowing what it was). Once I leave school I'm going to take up yoga for a few years, and then take up kungfu again.
What do you guys think of martial arts?
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I payed $10 for 3 hour sessions, usually taking two a week.
Is there any reason you quit martial arts?
Why do you need to wait to take up yoga or kung fu? You could always practice at home if you can't afford classes right now. There are lots of books and instructional videos you can find that can help you create a personal work out. You could also try and practice what you remember of the kung fu training you received.
I do have instructional videos for kungfu, but I only use it for the kungfu stretches. I don't use them to actually learn kungfu, simply because it's not the same as being at a center with a practitioner.
Martial arts used to the purpose of deafeating ones outter enemies is pretty pointless from a spiritual POV as Enemies are but appearances to uncontrolled minds and slaying them as is slaying corpses for it is pointless as all aggrevements are nothing in the face of death, The Inner martial art is far better as this helps us defeat the REAL enemy that causes us to suffer our own self cherishing and SELF grasping mind.
I started out with Jujitsu for about 1 year at 13
Then I started Kendo at 18 and did that competitively until 21.
I spent about a year practicing several styles of Kung Fu and Chen Taichi in a park.
In the last year I have been practicing at a no nonsense MMA gym, and also refining what I learn once a week with a training partner. This MMA gym gets packed, sometimes we get about 40 people in one session.
In that gym/school, I've done; Muay Thai, Close Quarters Combat, S.p.e.a.r. style taught by LAPD, Aikido, Judo, Kali/Eskrima, BJJ, Ninjutsu, and Krav Maga.
The Muay Thai is really fun to practice because we get to put on equipment like boxing gloves, chin pads, we have a boxing ring, punching bags, water filled dummies, and a cage in that school too. I have got the opportunity to fight using all of them. Once you start getting the hang of Muay Thai it really makes you feel lethal.
You can pepper someone with extremely hard combos that include jabs, crosses, hooks, elbows, and kicks like it is just second nature. Most people would never expect a combo so fast and so hard. You get to a point where it becomes like second nature just natural reflexes. So in my experience, this way of training the bodies reflexes through sparring is probably the most effective fighting style. Or one of the most for sure.
Krav Maga is great too. This is an extremely simple yet effective fighting style that is really a mix of the best. You can disarm a gun so easily and it ends up with gun facing your opponent every time. Krav Maga is more of a military defensive tool rather than a martial art. It is so powerful that you can learn it easily from instructional videos. It is not really an art, it is a set of techniques for war. If I had to go with only one art for self defense I would do Krav Maga.
Obviously though, martial arts is more than self defense. In my experience, the most fun has been Muay Thai, and fighting with those boxing gloves and pads in almost a dance like motion where you're one with the Earth. Even after fighting a Muay Thai match though, I have to say the most brutal martial art I've practiced is still by far Kendo. You wouldn't think it to be so, but when you spar in an old school Japanese dojo with bamboo swords, competitive black belts that all have samurai mind set, and everyone is bare foot, people will go home with bruises, scrapes, possible brain damage, missing skin, all sorts of stuff. That really hardens you and builds your character unlike any other martial art probably.
Practicing in that old school Kendo dojo is where I learned about Buddhism. That Kendo dojo was so old school that you paid $30-$40 for tuition a month just to help rent the property. Our Kendo sensei never expected or asked to get paid for his time. We all just bought him Xmas presents and sometimes Bday presents. Now days most martial art schools go for $120-$200 a month. Anything below that is usually a bargain. Is this price of $120+ a month justified? I'm not sure really, I guess it is if you look at it like buying a service.
But if you really want to learn self defense you can learn from Krav Maga videos then practicing at the park maybe with people from Meetup.com. Paying those big monthly fees for martial arts means you should be getting far more than self defense out of it. Most martial artists will never get in a street fight.
I remember when I started Kungfu, they introduced it as "The fighting art, of not fighting". It didn't make sense when they said it - but it did after 2 years of practice
and just out of curiosity, what do you love so much about this particular style?
It's not really a style, it's the combination of techniques Sifu has learned from his different practices over the years. He calls it "Zen" to differentiate it from people who think MMA or cage fighting is "martial arts" not to define it as its own style. He stresses meditation as a requirement of practice.
The dojo focuses on "partners not opponents" and is non-competitive, but they practice extremely hard and we work on all ranges. It's very warm and friendly, but also very formal. As someone who has spent years building communities, I recognize Sifu not as just a master martial artist, but also a master teacher and community builder. I think those are rare qualities among school owners.
a lot of the things you mention are the reasons i thought it seemed like a great place. i really liked the focus on meditation and the atmosphere seemed fantastic (plus, i see people practicing outside all the time.. seems nice). well, i might still keep looking for a better deal (ho ho, i'm cheap), but maybe someday i'll show up there... never know.
I also agree that Martial Arts are not a bad thing if you are learning them for the positive reasons-Mental Discipline, fitness, etc.
The only difference between us and other martial artists is that we tend to not be traditional. That's why we call it MMA. We tend to do what works, and rarely do we wear uniforms. We got a full curriculum Muay Thai, BJJ and Ninjutsu class that does the belt/sash system, but most of the time we tend to mix it up. The other classes are a mix of very practical self defense close quarters combat. We throw in guns and knives into those classes.
Remember Bruce Lee is actually the father of MMA. His most senior student has an MMA school here in L.A., his name is Dan Inosanto. Bruce Lee is the one who started the concept of mixing it up to be efficient with Jeet Kun Do, and him above all people would approve of MMA. He himself fought in competitive matches, even one to the death. So MMA is a system of martial arts. It has a few differences from the traditional schools, mostly with the fact of less rules, but it is just a mix of tradition and modernized fighting that does need to be balanced also with mental discipline.
Well let me tell you, in all the years I've been practicing, all the different teachers I have had, all the real fights I've seen, I can confidently say all of these people who claimed that something isn't a martial art or something isn't effective are speaking words of ego, ignorance, and misconception.
Here is the definition of martial arts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts
It's very vast. It mostly comes down to the region and the practitioners that make the art the way it is. The bottom line is though, that martial arts are techniques of war that for modern times are meant to build you, both your body and your mind with also the added effect of making you tougher in general.
I come from a background of all types of martial arts. I've done traditional Kendo, Jujitsu, Taichi, Kung Fu, practiced extensively with the son of an 8th dan Karateka, Kali, and I currently practice in an MMA school with a steel cage. All these arts are not as different as you would think. They're all very similar at the core. My time practicing all these different styles has told me that they are all effective. They all have the potential of being equally as brutal. They all have the potential of being equally as helpful to the mind and body.
What really sets them apart though, the most. The most important thing to look for when learning martial arts, is not the style, it's the teacher. If the teacher is practical, compassionate, yet open minded, those are all attributes needed to make students even better than the teacher. Because a good teacher is not a master, they're not done yet, even they keep learning with each new student. The more a martial artist keeps learning, the more powerful they become. When they say that they're already a master and they put down other styles, that is when they're easiest to be beaten.
While all styles are not equal, if they did not work for what they were meant to do, they would not last. They would die out. Different styles provide different things. Even when a good teacher is present, it depends just as much on the dedication of the student to turn that knowledge into something practical and useful.
The more you practice, the more styles you see, the more partners you face, the more you realize that there is so much more to learn, and it can all be useful. This is the definition of MMA. Mixed martial arts, it is the extensive study of martial arts to extend your horizons to learn more and take what works the best. It's the ego that limits ones growth in martial arts. In the day of the samurai fighting with one sword at a time was looked as a very honorable tradition. But Musashi broke that tradition by using two swords simultaneously. He did this because he found it the most practical way to win. This is the same mind set of MMA. Use what works best to win the fight. To do what works in order to be successful is both zen, and the main principle of martial arts.
I had friends training MMA along side the time I was training Kung-fu. The only commentary I can give (from experience) is that sure, they trained martial arts; but not the ethical conduct that goes with it. They are much more willing to get into fights, and I don't think that's a reflection of ability.
Again, that's only from experience, and I'm sure this will vary given venue and teachers. I can also say that what they learnt consisted of many thing we were exclusively told NOT to do in Kung-fu, as a matter of drawing the line between temporarily incapacitating and Killing the individual. As a result of that, I don't view MMA as a self defense art.
That's my opinion. Lets try and keep the discussion on track, and without an art vs art(s) debate. Please.
Multiple eggs is what you need for an omelet. Omelet is still egg. MMA is still a completely valid martial arts system. Usually consisting of very practical fighting techniques. Muay Thai stand up fighting and BJJ ground fighting tend to be the core of MMA, but their is really a lot of options.
My MMA teacher has studied psychology at a university and holds a degree. He has a picture and a statue of the Buddha in the school. We also have a code of conduct and related rules to follow on the wall. He also offers free community classes of both MMA, Qigong, and Eastern philosophy such as Buddhism, and Taoism. He is one of the nicest teachers I've met, even if he is teaching real effective fighting. He also teaches philosophy to enhance your character. To say he is not teaching martial arts is just ignorance to me.
He is probably more compassionate and practical than a traditional teacher who is putting down other martial arts. I have never heard my MMA teacher even once put down another martial art. He holds belts in at least 6 styles. Humility and compassion are the attributes that need to be taught along side fighting in order to maintain a balanced mind set. This can be taught along side any fighting style, even one that uses knives constantly, such as kali.
Kung Fu has the Wude. I'm sure most traditional martial artists know what this is. But just as Kung Fu has the Wude other martial arts including MMA have their chivalry and their honor. Kendo is probably the most traditional martial art around, yet I can tell you from experience that the MMA gym I train at cares more about the safety of its students more than old school Kendo dojos. Kendo is about many things, but one main thing is that it's a killing art. But that is the yin and yang of martial arts. As one learns how to destroy often they're also learning how to build. Kendo holds just as much importance in building the character through the samurai way as it holds importance in striking down your opponent in one blow.
But even though that sounds noble, it's just as brutal as MMA. When I practice MMA arts I have good quality padding and I rarely get injured. When I practice Kendo with other Yudansha I get injured 30 percent of the time. In any competitive fight even with gear you will either get injured or you will injure your opponent. As the gear comes off, the chances for injury grow. When you fight with hardened weapons the chances of injuries grow even higher.
Any martial art that is either traditional or modernized will have sparring. MMA isn't all about competitive beating each other to pulp in a cage. I fight in a cage and a boxing ring, but it is with a partner to both hone our skills. And when we have a night of sparring, it is always safe. I've seen a professional fighter get their cornea permanently damaged into forced retirement from a palm strike in a traditional Sumo match. I've also seen Kendoka break each others fingers from a kote strike where their hand was protected.
This is what happens even in traditional arts when people fight competitively. MMA is no different than the traditional arts in this regard. They're all rich in culture and tradition that make them martial arts, and all of them can offer much. And well if you think MMA is not about self defense I don't know what to tell you. Above all the other martial arts it's probably the one most focused more so on practical fighting, as you get to practice that in real time. The only other style I could think of that is more focused on street fighting techniques more so than any other style would be Krav Maga. Which I would call both a system of military techniques and a martial art.
Martial arts are arts of war. The ethics can be added and often they're, but the ethics is not what makes them a martial art. Different cultures of people produce different martial arts. Kendo and Kung Fu are both traditional martial arts, but they're very different. Kendo is as much about killing as it is about building your character. To say they're martial arts and Muay Thai and BJJ aren't martial arts makes no sense. It comes down to the individual teacher and the student that make the product. Not the style itself.
I love talking about martial arts. But to me it looked like you were talking down MMA. So I am happy to possibly show you a different perspective. Not at all art vs art debate, more so just an MMA practitioner who also comes from a traditional art background challenging your perception with a reality check.
If all martial arts stopped being about being able to fight effectively there would only be hippy Taichi and internal martial arts left. I love hippies, and internal martial arts, but martial arts are supposed to be yin and yang. Destruction and creation.
Any teacher who tells you to never fight is not teaching a warrior art. Martial arts descend from warrior disciplines. By practicing martial arts you should be prepared to fight. You should not go looking for fights with negative intention, but you should be ready for a fight if the time ever arrives. That is the difference. If you don't like the thought of being ready to fight, real martial arts are probably not your thing. But Taichi, internal kung fu, spiritual Qigong and yoga can be perfect. And while Taichi originated as martial art, there are styles of it now days that is just moving meditation like Qigong.
I don't want to sound too intense, but sometimes there is too much fundamentalist thinking from Buddhists that all martial arts should be loving kindness. This is not martial arts. Martial arts descend from war and now days they're used for many things. From being able to break people, to just making yourself a better person, all useful things.
I agree with his perception of the martial arts industry in the same way I agree with techniques. He is my teacher and I have little experience outside my dojo. One day I may disagree just as one day I may prefer different techniques to ones he teaches. For now, I thought it was a worthy perspective to add to the conversation.
Not martial arts: Tournaments, ring fighting, cage matches, pay-per-view television, testosterone-driven environments.
Martial arts: Meditation, partners-not-opponents, self-defense, any effective techniques from any "style", applying practice to your everyday life.
He has said that if you could press the "mute" button on most of the MMA studios he's been to, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and us. It's the way they frame their practice in words and attitude that makes all the difference. If you've found an "MMA" studio that truly operates differently than that then we're talking about the same thing. However if you say "MMA" to most people, I suspect their first thought is what you see on cable.
Lincoln, do you classify this school as your sangha as well?
It is my dojo, my primary place of learning
I was in a Kung Fu school for a short time and they talked about kindness and fellowship. That was expressed informally before and after classes and also when a more experienced student is showing a newcomer things.
But I only had a short experience so I am additionally curious.
We also express respect formally thru bowing, how we interact with Sifu and the staff, and how we work with partners of different ranks.
We have a cage and boxing ring in the school to fight in, but these are training tools, not places to hurt each other in. I've never seen hard fights in those rings without equipment. The stuff you see on cable are usually veteran fighters of several styles that wanted to fight on their own desire. When our teacher tells a student that he thinks they could compete if they wanted to, it's considered a huge and rare compliment. The vast majority of people who go train at an MMA school go there to train practical martial arts, not to compete and brutalize each other like on cable.
We actually have a lot more women who do MMA than women I've seen who do Kendo and Kung Fu, so that should tell you a bit about the nature of the school. All types of people come to learn.
It's interesting that you make that point about your teacher having a problem with the words "win or defeating your opponent" in all the martial art schools I've practiced in the teachers were always warrior minded and they all enjoyed the thoughts of tournaments. One of my favorite Kendo teachers would yell during personal sparring matches;
"After the cut, go straight through. Cut the fucker in half."
And he meant it too, that was and is Kendo. We never used bamboo swords, to a dedicated Kendoka you held a blade and your mission was to kill your opponent in one cut. This was the mindset we were trained to have. But even with this mindset it was all an act of mutual respect. Even killing your opponent was respectful. Because your opponent chose to pick up the blade as well as you, so this engagement in combat, in a tournament was truly glorious and an occasion to cherish no matter who won or lose. That gathering of testosterone and test of skill to see who could kill each other first was honorable, respectful, and completely natural to the minds of Kendoka. This is Kendo, probably the most traditional martial art around. Almost all Kendo dojos are competition orientated. More so than MMA schools.
Sumo and Kyukushin karate are like that too, and those two are much more physically dangerous than Kendo. These are all warrior arts that glorify competition. So to say that competition isn't martial arts is mostly just a personal bias. A lot of Kung Fu comes from mostly peaceful Shaolin philosophy, but there are many more martial arts besides that.
Competition is where your martial arts skills are truly tested to the very limit without you actually killing your opponent like a war would require you to. Even with Shaolin monks being mostly peaceful, there are many Kung Fu tournaments in China now days. It's not about ego, it's about testing your techniques to the very limit against someone else doing the same. And through competition is where you tend to learn your most powerful techniques. Because that is where the will to win will make you efficient at what works.
The description of meditation, partners not opponents, self-defense, effective techniques is exactly what my MMA school is like. Though sometimes it does change from partner to opponent. This change happens when padding is put on. Once this happens you can tend to hit your partner like you would hit your opponent, this is training for realism. Of course though with your partners well being in mind, if there is pain, or injury you stop.
For the mute button thing, the loudest and most blood lusting martial art schools are probably Kendo. Even with MMA schools using Kiai with each strike, Kendoka are even louder and strike with way more killing intent, and this is traditional martial arts. The difference between kiai, and no kiai does not mean "good and bad". Both can be effective blows, but in my experience I do find that adding kiai to every strike will make it land harder for sure.
And well for the attitude of teachers and practitioners, I haven't ran into any night and day type attitudes in my time practicing martial arts under different teachers and with different students. All my teachers have been warriors, but also respectful, and they all had the same type of mind sets. None of them would put down the decision to fight in tournaments. Because that was an honorable endeavor. As for the students, all are different, the art doesn't make them, their mind makes them.
It could easily be an East Coast VS West Coast mentality too. Around the NYC area MMA is banned due to them thinking it's so brutal (all martial arts are brutal in competition). But here in SoCal we are the MMA capital of the U.S. and we welcome it and other martial arts with open arms. I think we tend to be more laid back people here in SoCal when it comes to anything a bit taboo, so long as no one dies and both parties are in agreement, usually people are cool with it.
BUT
This is not Buddhism. Training to fight cannot lead to enlightenment because it fills your mind with conflict that does not even exist.
I say this as an ex-martial artist myself.
Namaste
As you say yourself, martial arts is 'self-building'; Buddhism actually seeks to eradicate a self-centred view.
Namaste