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@seeker242: I would agree that aikido's emphasis on defence makes it far less agrressive than other martial arts. you could say the same for tai chi (when taught as a martial art - often it is purely for exercise). nonetheless, it seems clear to me that ANY 'martial' art (the name says it all, really) is fundamentally about training for physical conflict. as such, they are against buddhist principles and traditions, which always seek a path of peace.
There is a HUGE difference between "beating people up" and defending yourself, imo. Aikido is quite different in that regard. It is NOT used to "break people". It is used to defend yourself, while at the same time, to protect your opponent from serious injury. Sometimes you have to defend yourself, but rarely do you have to "fight". Causing harm to others should not be an enjoyable thing to do.
When you get caught in a situation where you have to actually defend yourself you have to be more violent than the person attacking you to be successful. You have to be more of an efficient monster than them. If you cannot possibly get your mind to become this efficient in combat, then that is not learning real self defense. Buddhism can teach you how to possibly avoid the fight all together, but Martial arts is the discipline of learning what to do when fighting is the only option. And yes there are times when fighting is the most likely option.
I don't know how much Aikido you've practiced, but I myself have practiced Aikido techniques. This is a Budo descended from the samurai. And one of my most lethal moves comes from Aikido. It involves grabbing your opponents hand passing it out in front of you quickly so it is somewhat straight, then you slam your hand above their elbow breaking their arm bone, then you dig your two thumbs into the knuckles of that hand, you step back in a circular motion and you break their wrist. From that motion you can easily step into another circle and continue to break the arm and wrist even more like they're rag doll. In a combat situation this is supposed to be done without hesitation, and in a very fast and efficient manner. Many of Aikido techniques involve breaking the arm and wrist.
Note that you can win fights without breaking people. However even those techniques are brutal and efficient. My favorite technique is actually an arm pass on to a rear naked choke. You choke your opponent out in the rear naked choke the same way a boa constrictor constricts its prey. The reason this is my favorite technique is because you can easily pass someone in front of you and put them to sleep in this choke without killing them or harming them too much. This is an efficient way of immobilizing someone temporarily without hurting them too bad. That is why it is also called "the sleepers hold".
To become good at martial arts is for your body to become a human weapon. Moving meditation is not martial arts, but it is a quality that is possible to find in almost all of them.
@mrserenity - how often since you have been learning the violent techniques you describe have you actually had to use them in a real life situation?
My guess would be: very little, if at all.
If this is true, and because you must have some interest in the Buddhist path because you have posted on this forum, then i urge you to contemplate if it is worth spending so much time and mental energy concentrating on violent events that in most cases will not occur. In other words, you are choosing to create violence in your mind where instead you could have peace.
@MrSerenity I understand what you are saying. My point was that if one enjoys hurting people, one is not practicing self defense. One is practicing "beating people up", which flies in the face of all true self defense philosophies.
@mrserenity - how often since you have been learning the violent techniques you describe have you actually had to use them in a real life situation?
My guess would be: very little, if at all.
If this is true, and because you must have some interest in the Buddhist path because you have posted on this forum, then i urge you to contemplate if it is worth spending so much time and mental energy concentrating on violent events that in most cases will not occur. In other words, you are choosing to create violence in your mind where instead you could have peace.
Namaste
I have never used my most potent techniques in a street fight. I was in a street fight VS 2 people when I was a naive martial artist. I won the fight, but I rather not talk about it on a Buddhist forum. All I can say is that they're still alive. Ever since I've started studying Buddhism I haven't been in anymore physical fights that were not planned. And now I do my best to avoid street fights.
Martial arts is extremely relevant for me, as is Buddhism. They're my yin and yang. The monk and warrior are my inspirations. Because the warrior knows how to persevere when it's necessary and to look for practical ways on how to improve and how to be successful through strategic means. The monk knows how to love, how to not be held back by anger and emotions, and how to accept difficulty when little can be done to change it. So they're both very useful states of minds for me that martial arts and Buddhism teaches me.
I will never give up martial arts. Because it is what has made me. Before martial arts I had many more difficulties than I have now. Martial arts made me face my difficulties and overcome them, rather than accept them and continue to suffer. Buddhism of course helps with the things I can't overcome and it helps with cultivating compassion and mindfulness.
The samurai is also an inspiration to me because they live everyday as it were to be their last. By doing the best you can in everything as it were your last chance, is part of the samurai way that I learned in Kendo.
@MrSerenity I understand what you are saying. My point was that if one enjoys hurting people, one is not practicing self defense. One is practicing "beating people up", which flies in the face of all true self defense philosophies.
I do not enjoy hurting people. But I do enjoy learning fighting disciplines. Do you see the difference there? I also enjoy teaching others when they want to learn. Because I know how much I enjoy learning martial arts and how much it has benefit me. To me it's almost all useful.
I come from a background of poverty where my surrounding streets and neighborhood are covered in graffiti. Neighbors I knew have been murdered, and friends that were close to me have been in bloody fights where I was the one they came to for safety and to help heal their wounds. Almost every day that I walk outside I see gang members. They don't mess with me because they know better and I don't get in their face, but these brutal martial art techniques I learn are very necessary for me. They give me a sense of security and confidence. I do feel like it's extremely important for me to know what I know, and to stay sharp both mentally and physically.
I always have to be watching my back here in L.A.. I am always making an effort to be aware of my surroundings when I am walking as much as I walk, as I do not have a car. It really has paid off for me to feel like I am capable. The gang members who see me every other day know just by looking at me that I am not worth the fight that I would give them.
You seem very confident, but don't these gangs have guns? Fists will not help against bullets.
I wish you the best, and hope that one day you will find a more peaceful existence - both physically, and mentally.
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world becomes blind" - Gandhi
The guns and knives are more common when an attack has been planned in advance. Because they can do time just for carrying them, and they get checked by the police pretty often. They also bring out the guns when they're after someone else and you get caught in the cross fire. I've been in the middle of a shoot out before just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They didn't shoot me because they didn't have beef with me. The older ones with money to buy guns tend to be a bit more honorable than the younger ones with little money. Most of the time those younger ones only have access to guns when a big fight is going down, or a hit was planned.
It's more common for the younger ones to start random fights with you because they want to steal something. Usually that will be with fists, or at worst a knife. Which I train regularly how to disarm both guns and knives. It's easier to disarm guns than knives and it's even easier to disarm a knife if you carry around a towel.
Gandhi was a wise man, but I bet if he saw what I saw and walked in my shoes he would agree with why I train the way I train.
When you get caught in a situation where you have to actually defend yourself you have to be more violent than the person attacking you to be successful. You have to be more of an efficient monster than them.
The better martial artist you are, the easier you can take any attack under control. Violence does not demand greater violence.
When you get caught in a situation where you have to actually defend yourself you have to be more violent than the person attacking you to be successful. You have to be more of an efficient monster than them.
The better martial artist you are, the easier you can take any attack under control. Violence does not demand greater violence.
That's easily said because it sounds like great zen. But the reality is a guy who is disturbed enough to try to start a street fight with you is NOT going to go down to a simple throw. Even if you sweep them off their feet they will get back up and continue trying to kick your ass. The only type of throw that may discourage them will be a straight up slam into the concrete. To win a fight VS a gang member or a disturbed thug type you have to be ready to break them. I mean actually hard trauma or like I would prefer if it's only VS one person to make them unconscious via the rear naked choke.
So it takes efficient violence to win a street fight easily, but it is still violence. Sugar coating it saying it's not violence is just zen fantasy. For them to be discouraged to get up it has to hurt a lot. You won't beat thugs by dodging all their punches until they hit themselves on pipes like a fictional kung fu movie. I have seen real fights with both thug vs thug and martial artist vs martial artist. There is always hard, fast strikes, and stuff breaks, people bleed and bruise from the trauma. And when there is occasional throws they're hard and violent, stuff still breaks, people still bleed. If it's too gentle, and not violent then it won't be effective.
You seem a bit biased towards martial arts looking smooth and not violent. But as a practitioner of many different styles I can tell you that effective martial arts comes in all types of visual forms, strikes, throws, chokes, submissions, wrestling, etc. Fighting is fighting, whatever works for the particular situation is what you have to do. I've learned from a marine/LAPD on how they win their fights without risking themselves. They use a lot of elbow strikes, violent hard palm strikes, and elbow/arm slams into the clavicle. So it comes down to the martial artist to make their style effective. They won't all look the same in a fight. Martial arts isn't just about being mystical and zen, it's warrior discipline from many cultures around the world.
Mr Serenity, your life is a neverending cycle of violence. You walk down the street, you see violence. You go to your martial arts training, you train for more violence. You go home, you think about violence. And occasionally, you fight, and you ARE violent.
Can you see that this is not good? Have you thought about how your life might be better? Do you want to live like this until you are old? Imagine being a frail old man, doing what you do now?
You are not living right now, you are slowly dying.
I don't know how much time and money you spend on your martial arts training. But whatever amount it is - and i suspect it may be a significant amount - then by re-directing your time and energy you could invest in your future: study, a better job, whatever. By doing these things, and by moving away from the life you have now, is the only chance you have for a better future, and maybe one day, enlightenment.
I don't generally watch martial arts movies, and my first defense would be to break an attacker's knee. Having different ideas about martial arts does not preclude me from living in "reality".
Mr Serenity, your life is a neverending cycle of violence. You walk down the street, you see violence. You go to your martial arts training, you train for more violence. You go home, you think about violence. And occasionally, you fight, and you ARE violent.
Can you see that this is not good? Have you thought about how your life might be better? Do you want to live like this until you are old? Imagine being a frail old man, doing what you do now?
You are not living right now, you are slowly dying.
I don't know how much time and money you spend on your martial arts training. But whatever amount it is - and i suspect it may be a significant amount - then by re-directing your time and energy you could invest in your future: study, a better job, whatever. By doing these things, and by moving away from the life you have now, is the only chance you have for a better future, and maybe one day, enlightenment.
Namaste
Daozen, I appreciate your concern if that's what it is. But you and I see things in a completely different way. And the reality is you don't see my life. You don't see what I see. My life is anything, but violence. Every time I see people, I think of ways to cultivate my compassion. I am always building myself everyday. This is what martial arts is for me too.
I work out almost everyday. When I go practice martial arts I don't think about hurting people. I have a mind set of mastering and digesting the techniques exactly as the teacher wants them taught to me. Then once I see that, I begin to go deeper into the technique and see what makes it easier, and more efficient for me. If I am taught anything new, I write it down in the teachers words, and my own words too. I tend to write down most of my techniques.
The amount I put into martial arts is less amount than I put into running cardio and weight lifting. I do cardio 4x a week, and weight lifting 3x a week. Martial arts usually 2x a week. It is my hobby, and my passion, not something I do all day.
Even though you think I live a life of violence I feel more at peace than I ever have. To reject things in such a rigid and almost prude like view is not practical Buddhism to me. I have warrior nature, I do love fighting discipline, and I love sex too. These are instinctual things, that can seem a little bit taboo to some. But they're activities that speak to my soul. Whenever I read graphic novels or watch movies I enjoy the ones with fighting type action that were thought about thoroughly before they were made in almost an artistic way.
This is like martial arts. It is fighting, but it is also art. It is violence, but it is beautiful. If you cannot see beauty in two skilled samurai striking each other down by choice, you will never be able to understand me. I am a mindful warrior. I have respect for compassion, and for fighting as well.
If you think enlightenment is giving up all thoughts of violence I call that prudish. That's just me though. I have grown up in warrior culture. I have no desire to hurt people weaker than me. But glorified, and controlled violence to me among two warriors, is beautiful and it always will be.
If you truly respect the thought of enlightenment you should get rid of your fundamentalist thinking. Part of being enlightened is to realize how everyone is different and how everyones thinking is based on their own culture. If martial arts was corrupt it would not survive as long as it has. It's older than the Buddha and found in almost every culture.
The old men I know that are teachers and martial art practitioners a large portion of their life are the wisest and friendliest people I know. They're also anything but frail. These old men will die strong and noble warriors, that even at their old age could possibly beat me at my young age just due to their constant conditioning of their body. Their constant study of martial arts has conditioned their body to make it reflexive and second nature, so it is no longer even force, it is simply natural that even they at their old age can do without a second thought.
Daozen, You remind me of one of those fundamentalist Christians that keeps saying their way is the only right way. I do not believe Buddha was that much of a prude. All those Buddhists that are constantly preaching no harm to any living things and that violence is always wrong are in denial. Stuff dies everyday for the food they eat. Martial arts provides people with more positive influence in their life rather than negative. If you see no beauty in fighting arts then there is nothing positive you can provide to a topic of martial arts. Martial arts is at essence yin and yang, destruction and creation. There is negative and positive in almost everything.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
There is beauty in Fighting/Martial Arts. There is only ugliness in Violence.
Violence against innocent person, or person who did not at all want to be hurt is ugly. I can agree with that. But to me stylized violence in graphic novels, video games, and movies can still be beautiful. Samurai vs samurai is the perfect example to me. Both were prepared for that possible moment, and even in the last blood shed of death there is glory. This is glorified violence. My guess that only a particular culture of people can understand this.
But me being a Kendoka for 3 years, I do see beauty in fictional violence when it's portrayed in artistic light. It's even the same with martial artist vs martial artist in a tournament fight. It is glorious to both of them, most of the time. The samurai welcomed battle and welcomed death. For it was the samurai who was least afraid of death who was the most dangerous, and most likely to win the battle. This type of thinking can be beautiful to someone who knows all about fighting. My guess is the more someone fights and explores warrior culture the more they appreciate the beauty in the fighting arts.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yeah, unfortunately, the Samurai mentality and discipline no longer exists. It's an idealised passion of a bygone age. It certainly doesn't generally or widely exist anywhere outside of Japan. Fictional Violence is exactly that. Fictional. Kensington Gore and choreography, cameras and sets. Real life really bloody hurts. How many people do you know, who 'fight and explore warrior culture' actually get into a real-life, 'no-holds-barred' fight with one another?
Call it what you like. Even 'Glorified Violence' stinks. They might be prepared to die. That doesn't mean they want to.
I think Daozen had an argument regarding perpetually watching out for a fight out on the street. I mean, if it's such a rough neighborhood, I'm thinking move?
But as for competition and training, I don't see it as hugely unskillful, and could be skillful if done right I suppose (see the concurrent poker thread for a similar argument with D).
Come to think of it, verbal debates on a forum such as this have an element of competition and rhetorical "violence" so to speak. And we all see to enjoy it and think we are doing something good.
The harming of others my ANY means - physical or mental - is against the most basic principles of Buddhism, the aim of which is to reduce suffering, not increase it. In theory, debate can be peaceful and calm, and it is very important that we all strive to maintain our 'cool' on these forums if we wish to respect the Dharma. It should go without saying - but Mr Serenity is apparently very stubborn in this matter - that martial (ie, violent!) arts are not compatable with Buddhist ideals. To think otherwise is foolishness in the extreme.
I trained in Shaolin Kungfu for two years, and then took up tai chi for a very short while. I wasn't aware of it at the time, but it was actually shaolin kungfu that introduced me to the concept of buddhism and some of the meditation practices (which is pretty cool to look back at, now knowing what it was). Once I leave school I'm going to take up yoga for a few years, and then take up kungfu again.
What do you guys think of martial arts?
Yoga is so good its done wonders for my lung condition and general health, depends what type you start of learning (the more difficult type can be hard to master and at times also off putting) I've been looking into Qi Gong/Chi Kung and want to start that soon - Kung fu sound much more cool though!
I haven't been in a fight since I learned (from experience) that me and my peers had developed the physical and mental faculties to severely injure eachother. But that speaks of fights out of choice. I've never had a fight I didn't choose.
The important thing is that one needn't follow all prescriptions of the Buddha to benefit from it and to become a better person (and perhaps a better martial artist).
Yeah, unfortunately, the Samurai mentality and discipline no longer exists. It's an idealised passion of a bygone age. It certainly doesn't generally or widely exist anywhere outside of Japan. Fictional Violence is exactly that. Fictional. Kensington Gore and choreography, cameras and sets. Real life really bloody hurts. How many people do you know, who 'fight and explore warrior culture' actually get into a real-life, 'no-holds-barred' fight with one another?
Call it what you like. Even 'Glorified Violence' stinks. They might be prepared to die. That doesn't mean they want to.
Plenty of martial artists I know admire competitive fighting and fictional violence. Organized fighting competition is actually glorified to them, even if the violence is real. Both warriors who have trained intensely for this occasion cherish the fight. This is like samurai mind set. Samurai mind set is also being the best servant you can be in any situation. Samurai actually means "one who serves".
If you knew how Kendoka think and MMA fighters think I think you'd be surprised at how alike they're. They both have much respect for warrior disciplines and warrior ways that descend from the samurai. In that respect the samurai way isn't at all dead to fighters found in these martial arts. It is alive in them. SoCal actually being the center of MMA and Kendo in the United States, so I would say among the fighters in this area, perhaps it's the most understood and the most admired here besides Japan.
And I mean I love absolutely love violent video games and graphic novels. But I don't love the violence alone. I like the heart and the artistic intention behind the violence. God of War, Naruto, Shigurui, those are works of art that speak to my soul.
The harming of others my ANY means - physical or mental - is against the most basic principles of Buddhism, the aim of which is to reduce suffering, not increase it. In theory, debate can be peaceful and calm, and it is very important that we all strive to maintain our 'cool' on these forums if we wish to respect the Dharma. It should go without saying - but Mr Serenity is apparently very stubborn in this matter - that martial (ie, violent!) arts are not compatable with Buddhist ideals. To think otherwise is foolishness in the extreme.
If thousands of bugs have been killed to prepare your salad, if dozens of pigs have been slain to make your soap are you increasing suffering just by living a decent life? If two warrior martial artists want to train and fight for competition in a tournament, they fight, and one of them loses to TKO, but survives, how is that any worse than eating your salad that killed thousands of bugs? The bugs didn't want to die, but the martial artists wanted to fight.
Both fighters signed a contract to fight, because they wanted to. They had several reasons to. What you're talking about is your fundamentalist Buddhist view, that in essence really isn't what Buddhism was meant to be for everyone. Buddha said to take what works and what enriches your life and use that as application, not as dogma, not as following it all to the T. He realized everyone was different, and thus his teachings to everyone as an individual were also sometimes different.
Buddhism is not meant to be a rigid path or dogma, or a harsh religion. It's just like martial arts in the sense where it is meant to be an application to apply to your life to enrich it. Both Buddhism and Martial arts enrich my life as applications rather than a set of rules to live by.
I don't look at Buddhism as rules. I look at it as modern techniques, and psychological teachings that can be useful in everyday life. Buddhism is not my religion, it is simply something I study on the side like martial arts. I am not devoted to either of them, they're simply useful applications. I aim for balance and middle way, I don't aim to be a fundamentalist Buddhist that says all fighting is wrong. If you want to be like that then go for it.
But that's what floats your boat, not mine. To live and be successful in the type of life I've had to live you do have to be tough like a warrior. If you want to live a life that talks down all types of fighting arts then you can do that, but realize this is what works for you, it would not work for me or benefit me.
The shaolin monks would be offended by your bias view of thinking martial arts is not compatible with Buddhism.
The important thing is that one needn't follow all prescriptions of the Buddha to benefit from it and to become a better person (and perhaps a better martial artist).
I am glad that Mr. Serenity practices Buddhism.
Thank you, I'm glad you can understand that Buddhism does not have to be a rigid, dogmatic, religion to be useful. I use both Buddhism and Martial arts as applications. The only thing I have complete devotion to is the improvement of myself.
Buddha said to take what works and what enriches your life and use that as application, not as dogma, not as following it all to the T.
No, he didn't. He said you should test his teachings for yourself. He did NOT say “just do what you want”, or “just pick and choose which bits of Buddhism sound cool to you, and forget the rest of it because it seems too hard”. He was challenging people such as yourself to actually follow what he says and see how it works, rather than just talking about it.
If you think i am wrong, and that Buddha in ANY way condoned violence -- of course he didn't, he spoke out against it -- then i would like you to show me where he said such a thing.
It seems your ideas of Buddhism are taken more from a violent, juvenile, fantasy land of warrior monks as depicted by martial arts films and graphic novels than from the reality of Buddha's teachings. You may be good at hurting people, but your Buddha-fu is weak, very weak.
Buddha said to take what works and what enriches your life and use that as application, not as dogma, not as following it all to the T.
No, he didn't. He said you should test his teachings for yourself. He did NOT say “just do what you want”, or “just pick and choose which bits of Buddhism sound cool to you, and forget the rest of it because it seems too hard”. He was challenging people such as yourself to actually follow what he says and see how it works, rather than just talking about it.
If you think i am wrong, and that Buddha in ANY way condoned violence -- of course he didn't, he spoke out against it -- then i would like you to show me where he said such a thing.
It seems your ideas of Buddhism are taken more from a violent, juvenile, fantasy land of warrior monks as depicted by martial arts films and graphic novels than from the reality of Buddha's teachings. You may be good at hurting people, but your Buddha-fu is weak, very weak.
"Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances. Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts,burns and critically examines his product for authenticity. Only accept what passes the test by proving useful and beneficial in your life." - The Buddha
It seems to me you have gotten angry, lost your cool and are now using attacks to justify what you think is the proper Buddha way. You have nothing positive or useful to supply to a topic of martial arts Daozen. You're just a Buddhist extremist who wants to put down all fighting arts due to your own bias. Buddhism is not as rigid and as narrow minded as you see it.
It is meant as a set of psychological applications and way of thinking to cultivate compassion. Martial arts is learning self defense when you need it. It is also about building yourself towards self improvement the way Buddhism helps you too. For those who want to fight competitively, keep in mind both of them want to, it is like sport to challenge their skills.
So I think you need to look at the reality of that, and take your anger and harsh feelings elsewhere. Because it is obvious to me you have nothing good to say about real martial arts. And that is anything, but compassion, which at the core Buddhism is about. It's not a religion of rules, it's a science of the mind, psychology of compassion, just common sense. Sometimes common sense and compassion requires you to fight to protect yourself and your loved ones.
If you want to keep thinking Buddhism is a set of rigid rules that makes martial arts incompatible with it, then do so, but keep that to yourself. I'm pretty sure any real martial artist does not care about those narrow minded views. You have nothing useful to add in here.
Hello everyone. To the OP I practiced some Karate and a fair bit of Brazilian JuJitsu. Good physical and mental practice. In terms of how it accords with Buddhism I would suggest that these are linked due to to their countries of origin and the predominate practice in those countries was Buddhism. It was suggested in this thread that this kind of practice would not lead to enlightenment; perhaps not. There are those, in other threads, that suggests one's attachement to sensual pleasure (i.e. sex ) would also preclude one from attaining enlightenment (I fall into this category). Apparently one's Budddhism is purer than anothers. There are those so busy instructing others in the "correct" path, I would personally question their attainment. My Buddhism is better and purer than yours is a bunch of BS. Who defines the correct path....well I'll just point to some Sutras on access to insight to show I am right! For a guy like Mr. Serenity, he should be applauded, he takes the Dhamma and tries to incorporate it into his life and what he loves. This life and the Dhamma are not about hiding away in some cave shutting out the world, it's about experienceing this existence now with all of it's goodness and all of it's flaws. If this practice lends to his peace and enjoyment of this life then Buddha bless. All the best, Todd
BTW what is violence? If I agree to fight you in a competition, is that violent? Or is it one's intention and motivation that defines violence? All the best, Todd
You talk of the extreme aggression needed to overcome an opponent. You talk of breaking people's bones. You talk of "cutting the fucker in half". Now listen to Buddha:
"When embraced, the rod of violence breeds danger & fear" — Sn 4.15
"Whoever takes a rod to harm living beings desiring ease ... will meet with no ease after death." — Dhp 129-134
"And how is one made impure [...] by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person takes life, is brutal, bloody-handed, devoted to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings." — AN 10.176
"When a professional warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.'" — SN 42.3
"And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve." — SN 45.8
"The verses said by Vepacitti the asura-king lie in the sphere of swords & weapons — thence arguments, quarrels, & strife. Whereas the verses said by Sakka the deva-king lies outside the sphere of swords & weapons — thence no arguments, no quarrels, no strife. The victory through what is well spoken goes to Sakka the deva-king." — SN 11.5
"Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless. Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth. Unlike those who don't realize that we're here on the verge of perishing, those who do: their quarrels are stilled." - Dhp 5-6
Daozen, I did talk of those things some which were not even my own quotes, but these were mental aids in my moments of learning different techniques from different styles. In order to master the moves I was learning you had to think of these things when learning them.
It was not about planning to use them on anyone. It was about mastering the ability to use them for what they were meant to do if you ever had to use them. (And yes when Kendoka are fighting with bamboo swords they're thinking of cutting each other in half). Basically understanding the physical science of the technique, and what it was meant to do.
Martial arts is at its core meant as self defense and fighting arts, and also with the benefits to build you through its disciplines. So yes there will be thoughts of violence when learning these techniques. You do have to think about what the techniques are meant to do when learning them if you want to learn them properly.
This doesn't mean Buddhism still can't work with martial arts. Because when I meet people I am always cultivating my compassion towards them, and I *never think about violence towards them. The only time I would ever be violent would be to defend someone, including myself. And yes there are times when this is necessary. I come from a gang capital where you see the "welcome to Los Angeles" sign covered in graffiti. Practical martial arts is very useful here. Not just for defense, for also keeping a balanced mind.
Martial arts needs humility. To say that Buddhism doesn't work with martial arts is not enough humility, and I feel it really is just extreme and is mostly choosing to be bias towards something you choose to not understand. With humility you should realize that your views of life without martial arts are not right to everyone, and do not make sense to everyone.
I prefer hard martial arts because they seem more real.
People look at what I do and how much passion I have for what I do and think I'm a violent person, and even though the martial arts I do are violent ones, its mostly about the thrill of competing in a way that puts me in danger and its not about hurting people, I don't like hurting people but the people who I do hurt doing these things were willing to get hurt by stepping in the ring.
I'm too old to become a professional which really sucks... really, really, really f**king sucks. :shake:
Its not about expressing violence IMO, its more about being a dominant alpha kinda thing rather than doing it because its violent. My point was that if it was purely because its violent then I wouldn't do them.
I'm not a violent person and I don't really need to suppress anything.
Ah yes, using meditation to be better killers. Very Buddhist. From the article:
"Maybe from a civilian approach we would emphasize cultivating happiness or peace. But that's not generally what a young soldier is interested in. They want to become the best warrior they can be."
I prefer hard martial arts because they seem more real.
People look at what I do and how much passion I have for what I do and think I'm a violent person, and even though the martial arts I do are violent ones, its mostly about the thrill of competing in a way that puts me in danger and its not about hurting people, I don't like hurting people but the people who I do hurt doing these things were willing to get hurt by stepping in the ring.
I'm too old to become a professional which really sucks... really, really, really f**king sucks. :shake:
The people who think you're a violent person just don't have it in them to understand martial arts. I had a very wise shaman once tell me "Among types of people there are rabbits, lions and tigers". She meant the type of nature people have. Even though you may be a Buddhist and respect Buddhism, by nature you're probably a Tiger. Rabbits will never understand. Just a metaphor, but you get the point lol.
If you're younger than 45 you can still compete in MMA. What will matter more is your physical fitness. Also if you want to compete amateur level, for fun, and to learn, you can compete at MMA schools and it will be much safer than a professional level.
And if you want to compete hard even if you're older than 45 I would recommend Kendo. Because in Kendo both are wearing armor and both are using a sword. It is no longer dependent on your body, but more about your technique. I have seen old guys 60+ compete with the 20 year olds in Kendo, and they can still do well. You might enjoy watching "The hardest test in Japan" The Kendo Hachi-dan test http://videosift.com/video/Passing-Japan-s-Hardest-Test
It makes me excited just seeing the first few minutes of it. My stomach boils with the fire that any seasoned competitor would feel hearing those battle shouts and swords clash. Only someone who has been in many tournaments can understand that feeling of excitement.
I've been a karate-ka since 2003. It was the first step to eliminating my excessive anger and unreasonable anxiety and buddhism was the final nail in the coffin. I spend much more time on Buddhism than karate and would like to spend a little more time on karate, yet to me Buddhism, ever since I rediscovered it, has been the most important aspect in my life and will continue to be until the end of my life (I'm sure it'll continue into the next). Having said that I have benefited from training in karate and are happy to have the opportunity to help others achieve benefits in their own karate paths.
Comments
I don't know how much Aikido you've practiced, but I myself have practiced Aikido techniques. This is a Budo descended from the samurai. And one of my most lethal moves comes from Aikido. It involves grabbing your opponents hand passing it out in front of you quickly so it is somewhat straight, then you slam your hand above their elbow breaking their arm bone, then you dig your two thumbs into the knuckles of that hand, you step back in a circular motion and you break their wrist. From that motion you can easily step into another circle and continue to break the arm and wrist even more like they're rag doll. In a combat situation this is supposed to be done without hesitation, and in a very fast and efficient manner. Many of Aikido techniques involve breaking the arm and wrist.
Note that you can win fights without breaking people. However even those techniques are brutal and efficient. My favorite technique is actually an arm pass on to a rear naked choke. You choke your opponent out in the rear naked choke the same way a boa constrictor constricts its prey. The reason this is my favorite technique is because you can easily pass someone in front of you and put them to sleep in this choke without killing them or harming them too much. This is an efficient way of immobilizing someone temporarily without hurting them too bad. That is why it is also called "the sleepers hold".
To become good at martial arts is for your body to become a human weapon. Moving meditation is not martial arts, but it is a quality that is possible to find in almost all of them.
My guess would be: very little, if at all.
If this is true, and because you must have some interest in the Buddhist path because you have posted on this forum, then i urge you to contemplate if it is worth spending so much time and mental energy concentrating on violent events that in most cases will not occur. In other words, you are choosing to create violence in your mind where instead you could have peace.
Namaste
Martial arts is extremely relevant for me, as is Buddhism. They're my yin and yang. The monk and warrior are my inspirations. Because the warrior knows how to persevere when it's necessary and to look for practical ways on how to improve and how to be successful through strategic means. The monk knows how to love, how to not be held back by anger and emotions, and how to accept difficulty when little can be done to change it. So they're both very useful states of minds for me that martial arts and Buddhism teaches me.
I will never give up martial arts. Because it is what has made me. Before martial arts I had many more difficulties than I have now. Martial arts made me face my difficulties and overcome them, rather than accept them and continue to suffer. Buddhism of course helps with the things I can't overcome and it helps with cultivating compassion and mindfulness.
The samurai is also an inspiration to me because they live everyday as it were to be their last. By doing the best you can in everything as it were your last chance, is part of the samurai way that I learned in Kendo.
I do not enjoy hurting people. But I do enjoy learning fighting disciplines. Do you see the difference there? I also enjoy teaching others when they want to learn. Because I know how much I enjoy learning martial arts and how much it has benefit me. To me it's almost all useful.
I come from a background of poverty where my surrounding streets and neighborhood are covered in graffiti. Neighbors I knew have been murdered, and friends that were close to me have been in bloody fights where I was the one they came to for safety and to help heal their wounds. Almost every day that I walk outside I see gang members. They don't mess with me because they know better and I don't get in their face, but these brutal martial art techniques I learn are very necessary for me. They give me a sense of security and confidence. I do feel like it's extremely important for me to know what I know, and to stay sharp both mentally and physically.
I always have to be watching my back here in L.A.. I am always making an effort to be aware of my surroundings when I am walking as much as I walk, as I do not have a car. It really has paid off for me to feel like I am capable. The gang members who see me every other day know just by looking at me that I am not worth the fight that I would give them.
I wish you the best, and hope that one day you will find a more peaceful existence - both physically, and mentally.
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world becomes blind" - Gandhi
It's more common for the younger ones to start random fights with you because they want to steal something. Usually that will be with fists, or at worst a knife. Which I train regularly how to disarm both guns and knives. It's easier to disarm guns than knives and it's even easier to disarm a knife if you carry around a towel.
Gandhi was a wise man, but I bet if he saw what I saw and walked in my shoes he would agree with why I train the way I train.
So it takes efficient violence to win a street fight easily, but it is still violence. Sugar coating it saying it's not violence is just zen fantasy. For them to be discouraged to get up it has to hurt a lot. You won't beat thugs by dodging all their punches until they hit themselves on pipes like a fictional kung fu movie. I have seen real fights with both thug vs thug and martial artist vs martial artist. There is always hard, fast strikes, and stuff breaks, people bleed and bruise from the trauma. And when there is occasional throws they're hard and violent, stuff still breaks, people still bleed. If it's too gentle, and not violent then it won't be effective.
You seem a bit biased towards martial arts looking smooth and not violent. But as a practitioner of many different styles I can tell you that effective martial arts comes in all types of visual forms, strikes, throws, chokes, submissions, wrestling, etc. Fighting is fighting, whatever works for the particular situation is what you have to do. I've learned from a marine/LAPD on how they win their fights without risking themselves. They use a lot of elbow strikes, violent hard palm strikes, and elbow/arm slams into the clavicle. So it comes down to the martial artist to make their style effective. They won't all look the same in a fight. Martial arts isn't just about being mystical and zen, it's warrior discipline from many cultures around the world.
Can you see that this is not good? Have you thought about how your life might be better? Do you want to live like this until you are old? Imagine being a frail old man, doing what you do now?
You are not living right now, you are slowly dying.
I don't know how much time and money you spend on your martial arts training. But whatever amount it is - and i suspect it may be a significant amount - then by re-directing your time and energy you could invest in your future: study, a better job, whatever. By doing these things, and by moving away from the life you have now, is the only chance you have for a better future, and maybe one day, enlightenment.
Namaste
Daozen,
I appreciate your concern if that's what it is. But you and I see things in a completely different way. And the reality is you don't see my life. You don't see what I see. My life is anything, but violence. Every time I see people, I think of ways to cultivate my compassion. I am always building myself everyday. This is what martial arts is for me too.
I work out almost everyday. When I go practice martial arts I don't think about hurting people. I have a mind set of mastering and digesting the techniques exactly as the teacher wants them taught to me. Then once I see that, I begin to go deeper into the technique and see what makes it easier, and more efficient for me. If I am taught anything new, I write it down in the teachers words, and my own words too. I tend to write down most of my techniques.
The amount I put into martial arts is less amount than I put into running cardio and weight lifting. I do cardio 4x a week, and weight lifting 3x a week. Martial arts usually 2x a week. It is my hobby, and my passion, not something I do all day.
Even though you think I live a life of violence I feel more at peace than I ever have. To reject things in such a rigid and almost prude like view is not practical Buddhism to me. I have warrior nature, I do love fighting discipline, and I love sex too. These are instinctual things, that can seem a little bit taboo to some. But they're activities that speak to my soul. Whenever I read graphic novels or watch movies I enjoy the ones with fighting type action that were thought about thoroughly before they were made in almost an artistic way.
This is like martial arts. It is fighting, but it is also art. It is violence, but it is beautiful. If you cannot see beauty in two skilled samurai striking each other down by choice, you will never be able to understand me. I am a mindful warrior. I have respect for compassion, and for fighting as well.
If you think enlightenment is giving up all thoughts of violence I call that prudish. That's just me though. I have grown up in warrior culture. I have no desire to hurt people weaker than me. But glorified, and controlled violence to me among two warriors, is beautiful and it always will be.
If you truly respect the thought of enlightenment you should get rid of your fundamentalist thinking. Part of being enlightened is to realize how everyone is different and how everyones thinking is based on their own culture. If martial arts was corrupt it would not survive as long as it has. It's older than the Buddha and found in almost every culture.
The old men I know that are teachers and martial art practitioners a large portion of their life are the wisest and friendliest people I know. They're also anything but frail. These old men will die strong and noble warriors, that even at their old age could possibly beat me at my young age just due to their constant conditioning of their body. Their constant study of martial arts has conditioned their body to make it reflexive and second nature, so it is no longer even force, it is simply natural that even they at their old age can do without a second thought.
Buddha weeps for you.
Namaste
You remind me of one of those fundamentalist Christians that keeps saying their way is the only right way. I do not believe Buddha was that much of a prude. All those Buddhists that are constantly preaching no harm to any living things and that violence is always wrong are in denial. Stuff dies everyday for the food they eat. Martial arts provides people with more positive influence in their life rather than negative. If you see no beauty in fighting arts then there is nothing positive you can provide to a topic of martial arts. Martial arts is at essence yin and yang, destruction and creation. There is negative and positive in almost everything.
There is only ugliness in Violence.
But me being a Kendoka for 3 years, I do see beauty in fictional violence when it's portrayed in artistic light. It's even the same with martial artist vs martial artist in a tournament fight. It is glorious to both of them, most of the time. The samurai welcomed battle and welcomed death. For it was the samurai who was least afraid of death who was the most dangerous, and most likely to win the battle. This type of thinking can be beautiful to someone who knows all about fighting. My guess is the more someone fights and explores warrior culture the more they appreciate the beauty in the fighting arts.
Fictional Violence is exactly that. Fictional. Kensington Gore and choreography, cameras and sets.
Real life really bloody hurts.
How many people do you know, who 'fight and explore warrior culture' actually get into a real-life, 'no-holds-barred' fight with one another?
Call it what you like. Even 'Glorified Violence' stinks. They might be prepared to die.
That doesn't mean they want to.
I think Daozen had an argument regarding perpetually watching out for a fight out on the street. I mean, if it's such a rough neighborhood, I'm thinking move?
But as for competition and training, I don't see it as hugely unskillful, and could be skillful if done right I suppose (see the concurrent poker thread for a similar argument with D).
Come to think of it, verbal debates on a forum such as this have an element of competition and rhetorical "violence" so to speak. And we all see to enjoy it and think we are doing something good.
The important thing is that one needn't follow all prescriptions of the Buddha to benefit from it and to become a better person (and perhaps a better martial artist).
I am glad that Mr. Serenity practices Buddhism.
Plenty of martial artists I know admire competitive fighting and fictional violence. Organized fighting competition is actually glorified to them, even if the violence is real. Both warriors who have trained intensely for this occasion cherish the fight. This is like samurai mind set. Samurai mind set is also being the best servant you can be in any situation. Samurai actually means "one who serves".
If you knew how Kendoka think and MMA fighters think I think you'd be surprised at how alike they're. They both have much respect for warrior disciplines and warrior ways that descend from the samurai. In that respect the samurai way isn't at all dead to fighters found in these martial arts. It is alive in them.
SoCal actually being the center of MMA and Kendo in the United States, so I would say among the fighters in this area, perhaps it's the most understood and the most admired here besides Japan.
And I mean I love absolutely love violent video games and graphic novels. But I don't love the violence alone. I like the heart and the artistic intention behind the violence. God of War, Naruto, Shigurui, those are works of art that speak to my soul.
If thousands of bugs have been killed to prepare your salad, if dozens of pigs have been slain to make your soap are you increasing suffering just by living a decent life? If two warrior martial artists want to train and fight for competition in a tournament, they fight, and one of them loses to TKO, but survives, how is that any worse than eating your salad that killed thousands of bugs? The bugs didn't want to die, but the martial artists wanted to fight.
Both fighters signed a contract to fight, because they wanted to. They had several reasons to. What you're talking about is your fundamentalist Buddhist view, that in essence really isn't what Buddhism was meant to be for everyone. Buddha said to take what works and what enriches your life and use that as application, not as dogma, not as following it all to the T. He realized everyone was different, and thus his teachings to everyone as an individual were also sometimes different.
Buddhism is not meant to be a rigid path or dogma, or a harsh religion. It's just like martial arts in the sense where it is meant to be an application to apply to your life to enrich it. Both Buddhism and Martial arts enrich my life as applications rather than a set of rules to live by.
I don't look at Buddhism as rules. I look at it as modern techniques, and psychological teachings that can be useful in everyday life. Buddhism is not my religion, it is simply something I study on the side like martial arts. I am not devoted to either of them, they're simply useful applications. I aim for balance and middle way, I don't aim to be a fundamentalist Buddhist that says all fighting is wrong. If you want to be like that then go for it.
But that's what floats your boat, not mine. To live and be successful in the type of life I've had to live you do have to be tough like a warrior. If you want to live a life that talks down all types of fighting arts then you can do that, but realize this is what works for you, it would not work for me or benefit me.
The shaolin monks would be offended by your bias view of thinking martial arts is not compatible with Buddhism.
Thank you, I'm glad you can understand that Buddhism does not have to be a rigid, dogmatic, religion to be useful. I use both Buddhism and Martial arts as applications. The only thing I have complete devotion to is the improvement of myself.
If you think i am wrong, and that Buddha in ANY way condoned violence -- of course he didn't, he spoke out against it -- then i would like you to show me where he said such a thing.
It seems your ideas of Buddhism are taken more from a violent, juvenile, fantasy land of warrior monks as depicted by martial arts films and graphic novels than from the reality of Buddha's teachings. You may be good at hurting people, but your Buddha-fu is weak, very weak.
- The Buddha
It seems to me you have gotten angry, lost your cool and are now using attacks to justify what you think is the proper Buddha way. You have nothing positive or useful to supply to a topic of martial arts Daozen. You're just a Buddhist extremist who wants to put down all fighting arts due to your own bias. Buddhism is not as rigid and as narrow minded as you see it.
It is meant as a set of psychological applications and way of thinking to cultivate compassion. Martial arts is learning self defense when you need it. It is also about building yourself towards self improvement the way Buddhism helps you too. For those who want to fight competitively, keep in mind both of them want to, it is like sport to challenge their skills.
So I think you need to look at the reality of that, and take your anger and harsh feelings elsewhere. Because it is obvious to me you have nothing good to say about real martial arts. And that is anything, but compassion, which at the core Buddhism is about. It's not a religion of rules, it's a science of the mind, psychology of compassion, just common sense. Sometimes common sense and compassion requires you to fight to protect yourself and your loved ones.
If you want to keep thinking Buddhism is a set of rigid rules that makes martial arts incompatible with it, then do so, but keep that to yourself. I'm pretty sure any real martial artist does not care about those narrow minded views. You have nothing useful to add in here.
To the OP I practiced some Karate and a fair bit of Brazilian JuJitsu. Good physical and mental practice. In terms of how it accords with Buddhism I would suggest that these are linked due to to their countries of origin and the predominate practice in those countries was Buddhism. It was suggested in this thread that this kind of practice would not lead to enlightenment; perhaps not. There are those, in other threads, that suggests one's attachement to sensual pleasure (i.e. sex ) would also preclude one from attaining enlightenment (I fall into this category). Apparently one's Budddhism is purer than anothers. There are those so busy instructing others in the "correct" path, I would personally question their attainment. My Buddhism is better and purer than yours is a bunch of BS. Who defines the correct path....well I'll just point to some Sutras on access to insight to show I am right! For a guy like Mr. Serenity, he should be applauded, he takes the Dhamma and tries to incorporate it into his life and what he loves. This life and the Dhamma are not about hiding away in some cave shutting out the world, it's about experienceing this existence now with all of it's goodness and all of it's flaws. If this practice lends to his peace and enjoyment of this life then Buddha bless.
All the best,
Todd
All the best,
Todd
it is a thin line though and very hard for most people.
You talk of the extreme aggression needed to overcome an opponent. You talk of breaking people's bones. You talk of "cutting the fucker in half". Now listen to Buddha:
"When embraced, the rod of violence breeds danger & fear" — Sn 4.15
"Whoever takes a rod to harm living beings desiring ease ... will meet with no ease after death." — Dhp 129-134
"And how is one made impure [...] by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person takes life, is brutal, bloody-handed, devoted to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings." — AN 10.176
"When a professional warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.'" — SN 42.3
"And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve." — SN 45.8
"The verses said by Vepacitti the asura-king lie in the sphere of swords & weapons — thence arguments, quarrels, & strife. Whereas the verses said by Sakka the deva-king lies outside the sphere of swords & weapons — thence no arguments, no quarrels, no strife. The victory through what is well spoken goes to Sakka the deva-king." — SN 11.5
"Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless. Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth. Unlike those who don't realize that we're here on the verge of perishing, those who do: their quarrels are stilled." - Dhp 5-6
Namaste
I did talk of those things some which were not even my own quotes, but these were mental aids in my moments of learning different techniques from different styles. In order to master the moves I was learning you had to think of these things when learning them.
It was not about planning to use them on anyone. It was about mastering the ability to use them for what they were meant to do if you ever had to use them. (And yes when Kendoka are fighting with bamboo swords they're thinking of cutting each other in half). Basically understanding the physical science of the technique, and what it was meant to do.
Martial arts is at its core meant as self defense and fighting arts, and also with the benefits to build you through its disciplines. So yes there will be thoughts of violence when learning these techniques. You do have to think about what the techniques are meant to do when learning them if you want to learn them properly.
This doesn't mean Buddhism still can't work with martial arts. Because when I meet people I am always cultivating my compassion towards them, and I *never think about violence towards them. The only time I would ever be violent would be to defend someone, including myself. And yes there are times when this is necessary. I come from a gang capital where you see the "welcome to Los Angeles" sign covered in graffiti. Practical martial arts is very useful here. Not just for defense, for also keeping a balanced mind.
Martial arts needs humility. To say that Buddhism doesn't work with martial arts is not enough humility, and I feel it really is just extreme and is mostly choosing to be bias towards something you choose to not understand. With humility you should realize that your views of life without martial arts are not right to everyone, and do not make sense to everyone.
the "Warrior Mind Training" link I posted in another tread deserves mention here:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1920753,00.html
I prefer hard martial arts because they seem more real.
People look at what I do and how much passion I have for what I do and think I'm a violent person, and even though the martial arts I do are violent ones, its mostly about the thrill of competing in a way that puts me in danger and its not about hurting people, I don't like hurting people but the people who I do hurt doing these things were willing to get hurt by stepping in the ring.
I'm too old to become a professional which really sucks... really, really, really f**king sucks. :shake:
and maybe it is more helpful to "express violence in a controled way" than suppressing it.
I'm not a violent person and I don't really need to suppress anything.
"Maybe from a civilian approach we would emphasize cultivating happiness or peace. But that's not generally what a young soldier is interested in. They want to become the best warrior they can be."
If you're younger than 45 you can still compete in MMA. What will matter more is your physical fitness. Also if you want to compete amateur level, for fun, and to learn, you can compete at MMA schools and it will be much safer than a professional level.
And if you want to compete hard even if you're older than 45 I would recommend Kendo. Because in Kendo both are wearing armor and both are using a sword. It is no longer dependent on your body, but more about your technique. I have seen old guys 60+ compete with the 20 year olds in Kendo, and they can still do well. You might enjoy watching
"The hardest test in Japan"
The Kendo Hachi-dan test
http://videosift.com/video/Passing-Japan-s-Hardest-Test
It makes me excited just seeing the first few minutes of it. My stomach boils with the fire that any seasoned competitor would feel hearing those battle shouts and swords clash. Only someone who has been in many tournaments can understand that feeling of excitement.
I've been a karate-ka since 2003. It was the first step to eliminating my excessive anger and unreasonable anxiety and buddhism was the final nail in the coffin. I spend much more time on Buddhism than karate and would like to spend a little more time on karate, yet to me Buddhism, ever since I rediscovered it, has been the most important aspect in my life and will continue to be until the end of my life (I'm sure it'll continue into the next). Having said that I have benefited from training in karate and are happy to have the opportunity to help others achieve benefits in their own karate paths.
Rei, :bowdown:
WK