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Yes, unless you've experienced past life memories, in which case, you know rebirth is real.
The Buddha taught there are five aggregates that compose our lives, namely, physical body, feeling, perception, mental forming and consciousness.
What are regarded as "past life memories" are just mental formations.
The Buddha advised all mental formations whatsoever, whether gross or subtle, are to be regarded as "this is not me, this I am not, this is not myself".
That one regards mental formations or mental images as "past lives" is pure conjecture.
Yes, unless you've experienced past life memories, in which case, you know rebirth is real.
The Buddha taught there are five aggregates that compose our lives, namely, physical body, feeling, perception, mental forming and consciousness.
What are regarded as "past life memories" are just mental formations.
The Buddha advised all mental formations whatsoever, whether gross or subtle, are to be regarded as "this is not me, this I am not, this is not myself".
That one regards mental formations or mental images as "past lives" is pure conjecture.
All the best
This life is made of mental formations as well.
When you re-experience a past life, one is actually traveling through time, so one is actually experiencing it physically as it happened.
Without direct experiencing of this, I can see a person erroneously projecting, "delusion."
The difference between a Christian having experiential faith in God and a Buddhist having experiential faith in rebirth, as we don't attach to rebirth like a Christian does to God.
For a Christian, God is the supreme and ultimate Truth... For a Buddhist, rebirth is merely a truth that is empty of inherent existence, but merely has relative existence.
What about Buddhists that spend their time spinning prayer wheels and making other forms of merit so they can attain a favourable "rebirth"?
The Buddha taught when people do not believe in "the other worlds" that are the results of "karma" or action, then they will have no urgency to do good.
The Buddha also taught explicity believing in rebirth results in attachment.
However, the Buddha did not teach "empty things" are reborn. Instead, the Buddha taught emptiness is the end of "birth".
The Buddha taught rebirth sides with merit & encourages morality (non-harming).
The Buddha taught actual persons are reborn.
Once we try to change rebirth belief into emptiness, we destroy its moral efficacy.
If my life is emptiness, without self-interest, why would I do good for a better rebirth?
Your reactions to someone sharing are somewhat interesting. Do you find wisdom in Buddhism?
To be honest, after joining this site, I've come to question certain things. And I've discovered there are many Buddhisms, so if one doesn't agree with some teachings, one can switch schools. Just because I didn't agree with some of your POV's, doesn't mean I don't appreciate what it took for you to share your personal story.
DD, I thought the Buddha experienced memory of all his past lives, upon reaching enlightenment. One of those things I learned here at NB. All the best, moi
DD, I thought the Buddha experienced memory of all his past lives, upon reaching enlightenment.
The suttas state the Buddha experienced his past dwellings, homes or abodes (abidings).
Best to study the Pali to consider what the Buddha actually said.
The word is 'nivasa' (pubbe nivāsā).
All the best
The Awakened One, best of speakers, Spoke two kinds of truths: The conventional and the ultimate. A third truth does not obtain.
Therein: The speech wherewith the world converses is true On account of its being agreed upon by the world. The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true, Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.
Therefore, being skilled in common usage, False speech does not arise in the Teacher, Who is Lord of the World, When he speaks according to conventions.
The difference between a Christian having experiential faith in God and a Buddhist having experiential faith in rebirth, as we don't attach to rebirth like a Christian does to God.
For a Christian, God is the supreme and ultimate Truth... For a Buddhist, rebirth is merely a truth that is empty of inherent existence, but merely has relative existence.
What about Buddhists that spend their time spinning prayer wheels and making other forms of merit so they can attain a favourable "rebirth"?
The Buddha taught when people do not believe in "the other worlds" that are the results of "karma" or action, then they will have no urgency to do good.
The Buddha also taught explicity believing in rebirth results in attachment.
However, the Buddha did not teach "empty things" are reborn. Instead, the Buddha taught emptiness is the end of "birth".
The Buddha taught rebirth sides with merit & encourages morality (non-harming).
The Buddha taught actual persons are reborn.
Once we try to change rebirth belief into emptiness, we destroy its moral efficacy.
If my life is emptiness, without self-interest, why would I do good for a better rebirth?
There is no emptiness as such, there is only dependent origination. Nagarjuna said not to take up emptiness as a view.
When you see dependent origination, you see inter-connectivity, so you see that your activity effects all beings, like waves upon a shore are effects of various causes that exist far away. We are all connected, even if we are individual as well.
We find that there is no such thing as non-existence, so there is no real extinction, just change. It seems you translate emptiness to mean non-existence? Yes, there is no more rebirth, because there was no birth to begin with, it was merely a play of mind manifesting, as mind is also a play of what manifested previously... like a continuous, and ongoing instantaneous continuum. There is no more birth for an enlightened one, because they see through it, even if they do manifest for the good of all in the next moment, to the next moment, it's merely a play... no reality grasping.
You do good because goodness is it's own reward, really. That is what is found out through direct realization of whatever degree of the Buddhadharma. Spinning the prayer wheel feels good, if one connects to it's intention directly. It's very enlightening.
Your reactions to someone sharing are somewhat interesting. Do you find wisdom in Buddhism?
To be honest, after joining this site, I've come to question certain things. And I've discovered there are many Buddhisms, so if one doesn't agree with some teachings, one can switch schools. Just because I didn't agree with some of your POV's, doesn't mean I don't appreciate what it took for you to share your personal story.
Ok,
Yes, I don't believe the Buddha taught chance, as he said, there is no effect without a cause, and if one were to look deeply into this phenomena of cause and effect, there is no other outcome for one except logical acceptance of infinite dimension and endless experiencing, endless mind-streams of inter-dependent origination to an infinite regress all empty of inherent existence.
DD, I thought the Buddha experienced memory of all his past lives, upon reaching enlightenment.
The suttas state the Buddha experienced his past dwellings, homes or abodes (abidings).
But isn't it all the same? His experience of his past dwellings (an aspect of his past lives) were just mental formations? He didn't, in fact, experience his past lives (or aspects of them)?
They report that there's zero tolerance for doubt on that point.
We have heard. No need to enlightened us.
:dunce:
Thankfully, the Buddha himself never advised as such.
Thank goodness we have the Buddha as our teacher rather than Tibetan whatever
bowdown:
'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.
"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.
um...so...your whole life has been a mental formation? Does that make you a mental formation? I'm not following.
Yes, we are inter-dependent mental formations. Take it back, deeper and deeper. Just follow yourself.
OK, so what's the point, then? DD was saying we don't have past life memories, or they don't count as valid, or something, because everything's a mental formation? (Clarification would be helpful.) Well, obviously, a memory is a mental formation. But he seemed to be saying this dismissively. I still don't get the point. The way one knows there is rebirth (as opposed to accepting the concept as faith) is via one's memories. To say that memories are mental constructs is a bit of a tautology. The Buddha said to test ideas, teachings, by analyzing with one's mind and testing with experience.
The moral efficacy is restored by the third turning (of dharma) of recognizing emptiness as none other than spacious awareness whos nature when unstained is the boundless qualities of love and wisdom. Because the appearances are empty you can work with every situation. And not turn your back on it. Despite any arisings. You don't have to wait for them to be purified, you can work with them now.
Even the second turning teaches emptiness is always fused with compassion.
Not all Buddhists believe in rebirth but probably most do.
The essense of Buddhism is skilful means which free human beings from suffering.
Buddhism has direct methods to free human beings from suffering, such as non-attachment, accepting impermanence, etc
Buddhism also has other methods to free human beings from suffering, such as believing in rebirth. for example, when your death comes & when the death of a loved one happens, if you believe in rebirth, your mind can reduce or even end its sufferings & worries
So the goal is something more important than the means
The Buddha said: "I teach only about two things: suffering & freedom from suffering"
Kind regards
Hahaha - you know what, DD? Reading this post of yours and others I have read in the past, I agree with you a great deal. I think that in the other thread where you and I had some significant disagreements, I must have pushed a "wrong button" with you resulting in the ensuing fracas. For that I apologise as I didn't mean to upset anyone and I hope to read many more of your wise posts.
Your talk of emptiness appears to be mere rhetoric.
I knew that would be your retort.
Follow yourself until you see through it fully. I wouldn't take up "anatta" as an ultimate view either, but rather relative, just like views of "self" should be relative.
Does that make you a mental formation? I'm not following.
Then best ask your lamas.
:coffee:
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes mental fabrications to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.
It's impossible to know for sure. You have to die first. Buddhists for the most part place emphasis on experiential knowledge rather than belief for the sake of believing. Buddhists are not dogmatic. Though some can be.
Who created the universe? God. Who created God? *scratches head* Is there rebirth? *scratches head*
There are questions which have no real answer. People may claim to have insight into all this but it doesn't matter. Be skeptical. It is what it is.
Don't worry so much about this. Just focus on finding your true nature and save all beings from suffering.
Follow yourself until you see through it fully. I wouldn't take up "anatta" as an ultimate view either, but rather relative, just like views of "self" should be relative.
Does that make you a mental formation? I'm not following.
Then best ask your lamas.
But you're the one who came up with this "teaching". i'm asking you.
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes mental fabrications to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.
Parileyyaka Sutta
Oh. So I have past life memories, and they're fake. But the Buddha does, and they're real? Who translated this, anyway? "run-of-the-mill"? How about "ordinary"? Did you translate this yourself? This sounds like one of your mental formations.
Mental formations are relatively regarded as the self by most. You keep making anatta and emptiness an ultimate view, making your interpretation pretty inflexible and independent from context, it's kind of black or white. This seems to be so, just based upon the few days I've been here.
Our mental formations manifest our physical formations, thus our environmental formations in an inter-dependent fashion, so relatively this is quite really our self, but then we have emptiness which shows that it's merely due to inter-dependence that this manifests and there is no abiding self there, just malleability.
Our physical form is formed from the four great elements (earth, wind, fire & water) & the food we eat.
Our physical form started as a clot of blood in our mother's womb & was sustained & nourished by our mother's blood & breastmilk.
Yes, which manifest it's form due to mental formations... mind activates physical apparatus to put baby to breast, mind moves body to put certain foods together to make a meal... etc. etc.
I personally believe in rebirth, for a while at the start of my practice I thought it would a lot of nonsense and then I gave it some thought and had some insights. I concept was around in india during the buddhas time so I guess it may have made its way into buddhism from there, but ever other part of buddhism seems so logical, so correct and true to life. Westerners seem to have a problem a lot of the time with this part of buddhism, I still do not know why. I heard a talk by a monk who's name has now av aided me, but he spoke about how it is a core belief within the religion and he himself cannot understand why people are so quick to dismiss it and still consider themselves buddhist.
I personally believe in rebirth, for a while at the start of my practice I thought it would a lot of nonsense and then I gave it some thought and had some insights. I concept was around in india during the buddhas time so I guess it may have made its way into buddhism from there, but ever other part of buddhism seems so logical, so correct and true to life. Westerners seem to have a problem a lot of the time with this part of buddhism, I still do not know why. I heard a talk by a monk who's name has now av aided me, but he spoke about how it is a core belief within the religion and he himself cannot understand why people are so quick to dismiss it and still consider themselves buddhist.
Great point, ThaiTom. Westerners have trouble believing in rebirth, I think because, as the OP indicated, it mostly has to be taken as a matter of faith, and they see Buddhism as being non-faith-based, as being pure logic. So it bothers them, the rebirth thing.
Comments
What are regarded as "past life memories" are just mental formations.
The Buddha advised all mental formations whatsoever, whether gross or subtle, are to be regarded as "this is not me, this I am not, this is not myself".
That one regards mental formations or mental images as "past lives" is pure conjecture.
All the best
When you re-experience a past life, one is actually traveling through time, so one is actually experiencing it physically as it happened.
Without direct experiencing of this, I can see a person erroneously projecting, "delusion."
The Buddha taught when people do not believe in "the other worlds" that are the results of "karma" or action, then they will have no urgency to do good.
The Buddha also taught explicity believing in rebirth results in attachment.
However, the Buddha did not teach "empty things" are reborn. Instead, the Buddha taught emptiness is the end of "birth".
The Buddha taught rebirth sides with merit & encourages morality (non-harming).
The Buddha taught actual persons are reborn.
Once we try to change rebirth belief into emptiness, we destroy its moral efficacy.
If my life is emptiness, without self-interest, why would I do good for a better rebirth?
All the best,
moi
It is a mental formation.
Experience totals six things, namely, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches & mental objects.
That the mind believes it is travelling thru time is just a mental object.
All the best
:coffee:
Best to study the Pali to consider what the Buddha actually said.
The word is 'nivasa' (pubbe nivāsā).
All the best
When you see dependent origination, you see inter-connectivity, so you see that your activity effects all beings, like waves upon a shore are effects of various causes that exist far away. We are all connected, even if we are individual as well.
We find that there is no such thing as non-existence, so there is no real extinction, just change. It seems you translate emptiness to mean non-existence? Yes, there is no more rebirth, because there was no birth to begin with, it was merely a play of mind manifesting, as mind is also a play of what manifested previously... like a continuous, and ongoing instantaneous continuum. There is no more birth for an enlightened one, because they see through it, even if they do manifest for the good of all in the next moment, to the next moment, it's merely a play... no reality grasping.
You do good because goodness is it's own reward, really. That is what is found out through direct realization of whatever degree of the Buddhadharma. Spinning the prayer wheel feels good, if one connects to it's intention directly. It's very enlightening.
Yes, I don't believe the Buddha taught chance, as he said, there is no effect without a cause, and if one were to look deeply into this phenomena of cause and effect, there is no other outcome for one except logical acceptance of infinite dimension and endless experiencing, endless mind-streams of inter-dependent origination to an infinite regress all empty of inherent existence.
Once we try to change rebirth belief into emptiness, we destroy its moral efficacy."
APPEARANCE emptiness... Skandas are empty, but emptiness isn't a 6th skanda
Also your implying that buddha lied about physical rebirth in order to teach morality.
:dunce:
Thankfully, the Buddha himself never advised as such.
Thank goodness we have the Buddha as our teacher rather than Tibetan whatever
bowdown:
Even the second turning teaches emptiness is always fused with compassion.
Metta,
Vangelis
All the best
D
Your talk of emptiness appears to be mere rhetoric.
Follow yourself until you see through it fully. I wouldn't take up "anatta" as an ultimate view either, but rather relative, just like views of "self" should be relative.
:coffee:
Buddhists for the most part place emphasis on experiential knowledge rather than belief for the sake of believing.
Buddhists are not dogmatic. Though some can be.
Who created the universe? God. Who created God? *scratches head*
Is there rebirth? *scratches head*
There are questions which have no real answer. People may claim to have insight into all this but it doesn't matter.
Be skeptical. It is what it is.
Don't worry so much about this. Just focus on finding your true nature and save all beings from suffering.
:coffee:
Whatever ever happened to the so-called reincarnation of Lama Yeshe, the Spanish boy?
:thumbsup:
Oh. So I have past life memories, and they're fake. But the Buddha does, and they're real? Who translated this, anyway? "run-of-the-mill"? How about "ordinary"? Did you translate this yourself? This sounds like one of your mental formations.
DD still hasn't answered.
:om:
All the best
The Pali word is 'puthujjana'.
what's new for next season? hot pink.
Our mental formations manifest our physical formations, thus our environmental formations in an inter-dependent fashion, so relatively this is quite really our self, but then we have emptiness which shows that it's merely due to inter-dependence that this manifests and there is no abiding self there, just malleability.
Our physical form started as a clot of blood in our mother's womb & was sustained & nourished by our mother's blood & then by her breastmilk.
Westerners seem to have a problem a lot of the time with this part of buddhism, I still do not know why. I heard a talk by a monk who's name has now av aided me, but he spoke about how it is a core belief within the religion and he himself cannot understand why people are so quick to dismiss it and still consider themselves buddhist.