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...i see a hell of a lotta moutons... all around me at work.. rushing,being aggressive
...these ppl don't notice when you are nice, it doesn't mean anything to them.Too caught up in selfish ways..
all i see is another person wasting their life, being ignorant of life.U expect me to compassionate, i am to a gd extent, but they are still wasting their life.
I think same of smokers... they killing themselves and fuelling their addiction to make themselves only happy when smoking. They are very weak minded, it is ignorance that they do this.. i still treat em as human beings.
We are all already dead, but im trying to be stronger, conquer my mind and learn.. these guys aren't bothered with anything.. they on par live in a mental ditch, physically weak minds and bodys.. due to ignorance.. to me they are practically walking ghosts.. corpses.. zombies.. u can't get through to them, they continue wandering about.
May I ask how you, yourself, know that these people you speak of are ignorant? and what exactly does that mean? It is wonderful when someone notices and appreciates your kindness. However, I have to ask myself, "Is that why I'm kind to others? so that I get positive attention?" I feel that it is important to be compassionate to each individual, not so that I, myself, am rewarded per se, but so that the individual feels like someone actually does care about them. As far as I can tell, most people who act rudely or do inconsiderate things to others need affection and kindness in order to help them change their ways. Yet, I don't think that we should be kind to others just so that they change but rather, because they simply are human and every human makes mistakes and needs to be loved in order to be healthy. You said, "I think the same of smokers... they [are] killing themselves and fuelling their addiction to make themselves only happy when smoking. They are very weak minded..." In my experience, most people who continue to smoke is because they are addicted. I don't know if you have ever been addicted to anything, but I can imagine that it is extremely difficult to stop smoking once addicted. I think it a little harsh to call them "very weak minded." Many of the people I know want to stop smoking. I appreciate the fact that you also stated, "i still treat em as human beings." Though, have you ever thought about those who are 'gluttoness'? There are so many things that people do because of 'addiction', whatever that may mean. My point being that a lot of us do things that hurt us physically, emotionally, spiritually etc. and we don't even necessarily realize that we are doing those things. We keep on doing these things because they are either engrained in us to do so or because we unconciously have some sort of 'addiction' to them. "these guys aren't bothered with anything.. they on par live in a mental ditch, physically weak minds and bodys.. due to ignorance.. to me they are practically walking ghosts.. corpses.. zombies.. u can't get through to them, they continue wandering about." This statement seems particularly harsh to me. How do you know for sure that none of 'these' people are trying to change or trying to become healthier individuals? I'm not purposefully trying to pick apart everything that you said, I am just trying to express my thoughts on these issues, because I believe there may be more to each individual than what meets our perception. Well, that's all I feel like saying at this point and I hope it finds you well.
i understand what ur saying and appreciate it, but in all honesty.. i think these ppl are weak.
I see adults feeding their kids sweets and junk.. which has resulted in them becoming obese. This is the adults weak mind, and almost entirely their ignorance which has caused this. Instead of combating it and saying, right ur not getting more sweets and take away.. to that level.. they continue to throw money at them and let them roam down to the chippie and corner shop 4 sweets.
old ppl and middle aged ppl who can't lift their baskets or shopping bags.. which weight nothing.. all u need to do is work out a bit.. thas all and life will be easier, and u won't need to depend on others.. they know this but are too lazy and ignorant to do it.
I know full well i have my own 'toxins' and i can't always help but let them in sometimes. But tbh i gave up alco, and if needed i believe i could very easily give up smoking if i did it.
it is to do with strength and channelling energy, understanding. Many ppl as u shud know are too blind to even attempt to look outside themselves and you can't help them.
Its like those silly shows 'wife swap' its rare either party ever ever actually take a second and look at each others needs from a totally outside view, and think well hang on, I'm forcing my own opinion on this guy and its not working, and also i'm not listening to anyone.
u can say thats ironic from me.. but pff.. i'm not like that. i give em kindness and i don't lecture them and still they treat u like dirt out of ignorance, they wanna hit u cus u don't fit their profile or u don't look the way they like ppl to look or even because our shop network is down and i can't do what they want.
I'm fine with all that but they are stil weak.. and surely u have to encompass that. You have to gauge who you can talk to.. and about what.. cus otherwise it will look like you are attacking them no matter how compassionate u talk to them.
they have unconquered minds, much more so than mine.. i do have more ot learn but im on the way and i try to improve myself and look outside myself.. i don't attack others.. conquered minds can look at things without letting self come in the way, they can see what others cannot.
As a group, the members of this sangha has a high proportion of people who are addicted to many different substances, either actively or currently in recovery. Those of us who have confronted our addictions with the help of fellowship and therapy must be aware that nicotine addiction is among the most difficult to "kick". Anyone who has been to AA or NA meetings will have heard others tell of their struggles with their drug of choice and that, once that demon is chained for a while, if nicotine is then addressed, it resists harder than heroin or alcohol.
Celebrin: your mode of expression is abrasive and insulting. You want us to take you seriously but you whine and insult. In the end, that is what you will get back. Perhaps that is actually what the 'Celebrin within' believes that you deserve. It is wrong!
If you go on being judgmental, you leave yourself open to the judgment of others and it is unlikely to be kind.
Why not try out the harder task of speaking kindly and gently? If someone 'winds you up', instead of justifying your own critical response, practise examining yourself rather than them. Find the parts of yourself that are like that which you dislike in others: they are there because they are in all of us.
It is easy to love the lovable. Joy will come in the morning and happiness at dusk when we have learned to love the unlovable.
when attack i am the one who lets myself be attacked through believing in the self, yea i get that, i think u take my words as harsher than they mean, at this second i think its an unbiased opinion personally not whinging.
i applaud those who are trying to giev up things but they must admit they lack the full strength, its not an insult as such, but to those who have no intention of doing anything outside themselves.. well
i'm gettign stronger over time, and ill be able eventually to expel most toxins, and so will others who try and actually attempt to improve and learn.
as 4 judgement, you are judged whether u say anything or not. By ur image,ur stance ur talk,ur walk.., ur face and expression.. before u have ever spoken a single word ppl already have a broad image of what they think u r. You can ignore those judgements on many ppl yes, but a lot of the time they are a true reflection of the person. Ppl with grave fear in their eyes, ppl with angry faces.. and agressive body stances.. they deserve a chance yea.. but don't be suprised when they match the profile
You're so way off the mark and so far away from being "strong" it's almost amusing. Almost. It's none of your concern what other people do or don't do. Look only at yourself and your own weaknesses and ignorance and you'll have plenty enough to deal with for many lifetimes.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2006
"Those who wish to see improvements in the Lot of their Neighbours, should start in their own back garden."
and another...
"Dear Lord, Change this world.
Begin, I pray thee, with me."
The only way - THE ONLY WAY - you can gain compassionate and Loving insight into the Life of others, is to drastically bring about positive, non-judgemental, compassionate and Unconditional Loving for them, in yourself.
:P i never insulted anyone so i dunno why u pick on me..
kinda a bit backward saying that u have no self and talk to me like that but w/e.
and brigid u don't know me, lately ive been insanely calm, i can handle a lot more than u think. I doubt u have to put up with the stuff i do.. and i doubt u cud keep calm with the stuff i see at work.
I believe in treating urself as if u are already dead, and therefore not holding back.
Physical and Mental weakness are big problems in society and people.. so what the hell is wrong with saying we all need to improve on these notes..
if u wallow in ur own filth.. what use is that.. to u and everyone else you are a burden.
Strength to me is to able to look at anything and keep ur cool, and to make decisions not based on self or panic. I say ppl are weak not to realise their weaknesse's and try to change it.. too blind to see.. its perfectly true about many.
You're missing a HUGE part of the picture here. Where on earth is your humility and kindness??? Surely you understand there can be no strength whatsoever without kindness in your heart and mind.
The reason you're so focused on the behaviours of others is because you're feeling threatened and separate from them and you're perpetuating that separation by your own thoughts. All these people you talk about so much are every bit as good, as important and as ignorant as you are, just in different ways. You are in no way, I repeat, NO WAY, superior to them. Neither am I. The question you need to ask yourself at this point is "Why do I feel the need to be superior in any way to these people?" The outrageous lack of compassion, kindness and humility you show in your posts betrays a deep lack of confidence in yourself. You're misunderstanding the Buddha's doctrine of "not self" and twisting it out of all recognition to suit your need. You've turned it into some kind of nihilistic permission to say whatever you please about people you know nothing about. You have a lot more learning to do, grasshopper.
:P i never insulted anyone so i dunno why u pick on me..
kinda a bit backward saying that u have no self and talk to me like that but w/e.
........................
I think this may be addressed to me. We clearly have a different definition of what is insulting. For example, you say:
old ppl and middle aged ppl who can't lift their baskets or shopping bags.. which weight nothing.. all u need to do is work out a bit.. thas all and life will be easier, and u won't need to depend on others.. they know this but are too lazy and ignorant to do it.
I consider calling people lazy to be insulting and judgmental - you may not.
What I wrote was said because I have the strange notion that, underneath the surliness of your way of expressing yourself, there lurks a really nice person whom you rarely permit us to see. I also believe that your life will be happier when you see the buddha-potential in every person you meet.
im not threatened by ppl.. i lost my fear of ppl a long time ago and i genuinly think if u can't do something which requires hardly any effort to fix .. u shud fix it.. 3 reps a week on some 1kg weights slowly moved up 2 4kg would solve most strength problems.. thas just not hard..
why should i have to frequently lift ppls stuff at work.. cus ppl have let themselves go or never been strong and not fixed it.. it really isn't necessary.. this is not me seperating them.. its very true that they are too lazy to fix the problem they have.
nothing to do with compassion.. i lift out of compassion, but really this is un-needed and out of their lazyness to fix it that i need to do it.
most ppl don't see that they can fix this or other things like their childrens disclipine, but if they stopped or paid attention its a very easy thing to do and they know it.
this is not divisionism but making someone else do stuff for you, because u can't be bothered to solve ur own problems.Trust me, i work in a shop, the amount of times u have to point stuff out and lift ppls stuff.. majority of it is completely un-necessary and if i worked somewhere else i wouldn't have to do it.It not whinging, but very realistic..
sooo many ppl are too lazy to fix their problems, some too blind to see them, some too weak to change them.. some on the edge, some have got there.. we have almost endless troubles, but out of coutersy to others,.. pls for the love of god solve the basic problems..
nd brigid u don't know me, lately ive been insanely calm, i can handle a lot more than u think. I doubt u have to put up with the stuff i do.. and i doubt u cud keep calm with the stuff i see at work.
You start by telling me I don't know you then you finish by assuming you know me! I worked in retail for over 25 years, Celebrin. You have absolutely NO idea what I've experienced in my time nor do you have any idea of what my abilities are when it comes to remaining calm in the face of frustration. In case you missed the memo, I'm a physically disabled person who lives with constant pain from nerve damage. I haven't always been disabled. I've had to adjust and learn how to live with the pain every single day of my life. I can remain calm in situations you've only had childish nightmares about. Don't even dare to assume any knowledge of me or of my abilities, Celebrin. You have no idea.
I do, however, have an idea of what your abilities are and of what your attitude is toward your fellow man. You've made it abundantly clear and are transparent to anyone with even a basic level of understanding. You talk about people you don't know with utter contempt and an arrogance borne of fear and ignorance. You fill your posts on a Buddhist board with thinly veiled hatred and are then surprised when you receive a negative reaction from people. If I were you I'd get used to the negative reactions until you learn how to generate empathy and understanding for all the beings with which you share this planet.
I know any advice i could give no matter how compassionate would fall on death ears.. only those with an open mind will listen and theres just no point in trying to change ppl.
Many ppl as u shud know are too blind to even attempt to look outside themselves and you can't help them.
This expresses quite well how I feel these days when I'm talking to you.
I suppose it would be foolish of me to ask you any more questions since you seemed to completely ignore the ones previously asked. Furthermore, it may certainly be a waste of MY time to try to explain anything to you because, as it seems, you don't understand what I am saying and thus you are... may we say? blind? Maybe not, but I'm just using what you have said to show my point.
"I see adults feeding their kids sweets and junk.. which has resulted in them becoming obese. This is the adults weak mind, and almost entirely their ignorance which has caused this."
There are many problems other than "eating sweets and junk" that come into play when talking about becoming obese. I used to eat all the dessert, pop and fast food that I wanted. I never gained a pound because I have an extremely fast metabolism. Others have slow metabolisms and thyroid problems, etc. So I don't think it wise to be so quick to judge others about this.
"old ppl and middle aged ppl who can't lift their baskets or shopping bags.. which weight nothing.. all u need to do is work out a bit.. thas all and life will be easier, and u won't need to depend on others.. they know this but are too lazy and ignorant to do it."
I try, but fail, to see the supposed compassion that you have. The statement quoted above is one of the WORST and most insulting posts I've read on any forum. As Brigid mentioned, some have physical problems that go beyond just 'not working out.' I'm far from an expert on Buddhism but I believe that Buddha would not condone anything you have said thus far.
"I know full well i have my own 'toxins' and i can't always help but let them in sometimes. But tbh i gave up alco, and if needed i believe i could very easily give up smoking if i did it."
I am sorry, but in over half of your sentences, I can't tell what you are saying because of your poor grammar and spelling. Would that put you under the category of being "weak-minded?" You, as do I, have NO idea what it would be like to give up smoking. No person can say "this or that is easy to do or easy to give up" when they have not experienced such a thing.
"Many ppl as u shud know are too blind to even attempt to look outside themselves and you can't help them."
Again, as Brigid put so well, this really does sum up the attitude that I have toward you.
"Its like those silly shows 'wife swap' its rare either party ever ever actually take a second and look at each others needs from a totally outside view, and think well hang on, I'm forcing my own opinion on this guy and its not working, and also i'm not listening to anyone."
I'm not sure what you are saying here. I think it would help to type a little slower and fully explain your thoughts so that we can respond appropriately.
".. i'm not like that. i give em kindness and i don't lecture them and still they treat u like dirt out of ignorance"
If you "give em kindness" then why do you feel the incessant need to convey your negative thoughts toward others?
"they are stil weak.. and surely u have to encompass that."
Surely, I do NOT encompass that because I do NOT know each individual fully and neither do you. I can't choose to just assume that I know someone inside and out in order to make such harsh judgements toward them.
"they have unconquered minds, much more so than mine.. i don't attack others.. conquered minds can look at things without letting self come in the way, they can see what others cannot."
I almost thought this statement to be a joke when I first read it. Either way, it made me laugh. If your mind is so 'conquered' whatever that means, then why do you feel the need to put others down and raise yourself above them? You don't attack others?! You have verbally attacked virtually everyone with your rude, disregardful statements.
Wow, that's about all I can say and yes, I am upset. Though, I hope that being upset I didn't purposefully hurt your feelings, for that is not my aim. I would only suggest to atleast ponder what each one of us has said merely to gain understanding of how we think and then you can decide for yourself what you see to be true.
I'm sorry to read that people act in a way that you find upsetting or simply frustrating. I feel the same way sometimes; I don't know, but I'm guessing that we all do.
Does the fact that we may feel that way, make others "weak", "blind", or whatever? I don't know. Does it matter if they are or aren't? If I remember rightly, on the "Buddhism without rebirth" thread, you made what I thought were some wise points about the use of the "label" "Buddhist", as in "I am / am not a Buddhist". I think - and you'll correct me if I'm wrong - that you were saying that the word "Buddhist" is just a "label", an attachment almost, and that you are what you are with or without applying a "label" to yourself.
I thought then that those were really wise points. I wonder if arguing about whether other people are "weak" etc isn't just applying more labels. What does "weak" mean, after all? By reference to what standard? Like you in the "Buddism without rebirth" thread, they are what they are, and like all of us they have their joys and their sorrows, and like all of us, you and me included, they need a hug from time to time. Maybe the label we're tempted to apply to people matters less than the compassion we can show them, and each other.
My point was like the following quote from hagakure: way of the samurai
"According to the situation,there are times when you must rely on on a person for something or other. If this is done repeatedly, it becomes a matter of importuning that person and can be rather rude. If there is something that must be done, it is better not to rely on others."
I do not attempt to insult or label and i appologise for i do have the tendency to rather crude when making a point. I will try and do generally try to avoid this, maybe i can ask others to mindful of my crudeness in that it is not meant to be simply crude but an actual point.PPl are as they are, but all have some weak points.. even if they undescribable, many of us label ourselves and create the weakness or exaggerate it.
If there is somethign to be done, we must try to do it, we must alwasy seek to improve and have a role model. or even singular role models for each particular field. I do not think if i was me 3 years ago it would be fair to burden others by my then lack of strength and rightly so i didn't, i realised and fixed it, same with continuosly improving my diet or having a smile on my face.
It is out of a weakness for others that we pull nasty fearful faces at all who meet our gaze.. this is not being weak but having a 'weakness'.. realise it and solve it.
There are many tasks that one cannot accomplish by one's self. Take me for instance: I used to have sever clinical depression. I tried all I could to rid myself of such depression but it was 100% impossible for me to get any better without the aid of others and without medication. I don't think it fair to say that we need to do everything by ourselves. If this is so, then there is no community and no family. This is how it feels to live in Seattle. Most people just keep entirely to themselves and don't ask for help and don't "bother" each other and the result is a cold, isolating feel that you get from everyone.
I'm stunned by Simon's comment. Simon, you make me happy. Thank you.
Again, you're completely wrong and your belief in human "weakness" is based entirely on ignorance. You are making reckless judgments about people and you simply don't know what you're talking about. A few weeks ago scientists finally found what they had always thought existed--the "fat" gene, the gene that some people carry and others do not that makes them more prone to obesity. I'd look into this if I were you so that you can come to a better understanding of what it means.
It's also a well known fact now, especially among brain researchers, that addiction has no connection to "human weakness" in any way and to say so simply betrays an ignorant and contemptuous view of humanity. Addiction is a severe brain disorder and those who suffer from it have as much control over it as you do over the ability to flap your arms and fly. I suggest you do a little research into the physiology and biology of the brain before making hateful, ignorant and completely false statements about your fellow human being.
I'm really tired of this, Celebrin, and I would have thought it to be beneath you. But I guess it's not. The only remedy now is to educate yourself. You're doing to your mind exactly what the Buddha told us NOT to do and now you're going to have to undo all the bad training you've done and redo it all in the correct fashion. This is serious, Celebrin, really, really serious. You've misunderstood the teachings and you've started down the wrong road. You're wasting your precious chance as a human to train your mind properly. Please take these words seriously.
I confess that my last comment came from a memory of a poem by W. H. Auden, which could be dear Celebrin's anthem:
I Have No Gun,
But I Can Spit
Some thirty inches from my nose
The frontier of my Person goes,
And all the untilled air between
Is private pagus or demesne.
Stranger, unless with bedroom eyes
I beckon you to fraternize,
Beware of rudely crossing it:
I have no gun, but I can spit.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2006
If ever I learnt a lesson on just how completely dependent we are on others, it was whilst I read a book titled 'The Art of Happiness'... In it, the author was listening to a talk being given by HH the Dalai Lama....
Every time you think you can be entirely independent, and that you don't need anyone, or can function perfectly well without relying on anybody else....
Take a look at the garment you are wearing....
The fabric was woven by somebody.... then someone else cut it and sewed it.... and that person had breakfast - maybe cereal - grown, manufactured, packetted by someone else.... who received the produce on a big cargo lorry driven by someody else...along a tarmac road laid by somebody else.... so you owe your garment to a whole load of functioning beings....
And easy as it is to grow impatient with the elderly person holding you up on the pavement, as they carry their bags slowly....That person might once have been a scientist, a nurse, a doctor, a teacher.... and that person has made a difference....
They haven't always been old, but they were here before you, and they played their part.....
Tell me.... what conscious, valuable and constructive difference do you think you are making to the lives of others, right now, Celebrin?
don't think ur capable of understanding what i say, and u take it out of context.. makes me wanna not bother posting on sites. Cus u get flak off ppl who take stuff outta context, or don't even listen.
did u read the quote or not? cus i think more wisdom comes from it then any of u, to be quite honest. I also think it explains stuff clearer than i can. I do what i can to no frequently burden others when it isn't necessary.. what ur saying is outta context..
i never said if u can't change to not depend on others, then ur weak.. i said if u can u should and i stick by that.
and again federica i don't mind ppl who cannot help but burden themselves on others.. its the selfish ppl who are too lazy to bother to change when its easy for them, it is rude,unecessary and they set themselves up for a bigger fall.
so i say this an old person crossing the road who is 111.. yea id help them.. cus they can't do it on their own and they can't change.. again outta context pls listen before u start labelling and lecturing me.
turning into a classic thread where ppl continually tell me im wrong and ask me a question i have long already answered... then when i answer that they go back to start and as yet another question already answered..
Sorry!
Brigid... you should be careful doing that... some of us appreciate your head as it is!
Celebrin: I'm completely new in here and must admit I know next to nothing about buddhism, but even *I* can tell that you are very wrong.
Even IF people 'should' (physically or mentally) be able to help themselves, there might just be a million reasons why they don't do it.. How can you be the judge about whether something is easy for somebody else??? Easy compared to what?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2006
Celebrin:
First of all, it would greatly help the means and effort of communication if you were to write properly, use proper punctuation, not keep using txt abbvns and talk to us like people, not ppl....Nobody else on this site resorts to such language, purely and simply because it isn't an effective way to put your point over...
Which brings me.....
......Secondly, if you feel you are being mis-interpreted, it may well be that in your effort to get all your thoughts 'down on paper', you are not putting them across effectively.
You may well feel that we are ganging up on you and not hearing you - but if we ALL feel that way - maybe it is WE who have a point, and it's you, rather, who may just need to take a step back and re-evaluate what it is that you are trying to say.
Because whatever, why-ever - we are definitely NOT getting it.
Am I right that the quotation to which you refer is this one?
"According to the situation,there are times when you must rely on on a person for something or other. If this is done repeatedly, it becomes a matter of importuning that person and can be rather rude. If there is something that must be done, it is better not to rely on others."
The key words appear to be, as you point out, "according to the situation" but I am more concerned with the last sentence.
What worries me is that such an assertion is blatantly untrue, however valid the opening. At no time in our lives are we independent of others. We have relied on our parents for our birth, on others for food and clothing every day, on the community for jobs and services. Where, in all this, can we draw the the conclusion at which the Hagakure Analects arrive? I ask this, particularly, in the context of the Jewels of Refuge.
Whereas I could find arguments within bushido or the pioneer mythologies for self-sufficiency as a high good, within Buddhism as understood by most here, I dare presume, the Third Jewel, the Sangha, is a refuge in interdependence as well as a refuge of knowledge and liberation.
The Hagakure quotation assumes, in its syntax and phrasing, that there actually exists a way to live in which there is no reliance on others. I would challenge that. I would even challenge that it represents the message of the Analects. After all, do they not also say:
A samurai with no group and no horse is not a samurai at all
What is more, I find that it is a mindset that has some very damaging outcomes both for the individual who holds it and for the society in which they live. In Transactional Analysis terms, it is the I+U- (I'm OK; you're not-OK) position. The result of this position is that the person in the I+U-, condemned as we all are to interact with others and the world around them, can only perceieve all received transactions (strokes) as negative because coming from a negative source.
There is, however, much that is good to be learned from looking, with compassionate eyes, at our own responsibility as possible prop to those who need us. You are quite right that care of our health and fitness, insofar as it is within our capacity, enables us to serve better. In the old legend of Sir Perceval, he trains to be a knight because he aspired to the Code of Chivalry with its emphasis on protection of the weak.
Forgive me if this has been a little lengthy but you do raise an important point in showing us that we had responded to your manner rather than to the content of your post.
If I may quote Robert Aitken Roshi on the Four Noble Truths:
1. Anguish is everywhere.
2. We desire permanent existence for ourselves and for our loved ones, and we desire to prove ourselves independent of others and superior to them. These desires conflict with the way things are: nothing abides, and everything and everyone depends upon everything and everyone else. This conflict causes our anguish, and we project this anguish on those we meet.
3. Release from anguish comes with the personal acknowledgment and resolve: we are here together very briefly, so let us accept reality fully and take care of one another while we can.
4.This acknowledgment and resolve are realized by following the Eightfold Path.
I think this speaks volumes with regards to this particular thread.
so if i became a builder and could not do 50% of teh work out of lack of physical strength and therefore encumbered other workers to do my work for me.. although i could go to the gym and within lets say 2 weeks gain the physical strength...
i should not do so? because theres no reason to change? even thouigh i am really burdening ppl completely un-necessarily
i find many aspects in books i agree with and ones i ignore.. or can't understand out of bad wording. The hagakur ei belive is speaking of un-necessary dependance, this is not things which we need to depend on
the samurai would depend on his master, thats necessary.We depend on foreign countries for food thats necessary.This is completely nothign to do with un-necesary items such as makign ppl do ur work for u out of lazyness to make urself able to do it.
If you can't catch fish, go get a rod, don't make someone else to fish for u. If it takes you time to make one, by all means ask someone else for help while u complete it. If you can't get the rod or make one then its necessary to get someone else.
Your builder is a bit of a straw man, Celebrin. I think that you are missing the point of difference between your original statement about independence and mine about interdependence. Between a philosophy of self and a philosophy of service.
If you like, this is the great debate in Nietzsche and one which I believe is of vital importance today. His total rejection of compassion as a basis for ethics in the Uebermensch finds too many echoes in today's culture for my taste. I find a completely different ethical base within Buddhism.
its fine offering help, that shows compassion. But people who demand or throw themselves at u.. its just not right in my opinion, i shouldn't have to look after others to that extent. We can all do simple thing to make our life and otehrs life easier.Realising we have weaknesses is the first step to curing them..
i have a friend who is 20 now.. and hes never had a job and lives in his nans house, off her food,electricity and so on.. he's on job seekers.. now someone tell me that hes doing anythign but taking stuff thats completely un-necessary. This has little to do with compassion.. its pretty much a disgrace in my eyes.. he recently bought a ton of pc games using his benefit pay.. he refuses to go out, and i invite him round but hes too lazy to get the bus.
i mean seriously tell me hes not the perfect example.. living at home in seclusion taking the countrys taxe's.. totally un-necessary... i have compassion for him, i gave him a thich nhat hahn book.. to read to see if he would pick some stuff up and get out the house, and do something.. eitehr education or a job.. hell even a paper round would be something lol.
He read it but never picked up some of teh things that really should hit him hard in the head.. so hard that his entire essence should wets its pants.
ppl who refuse to realise their weak points and refuse to do anythign possible about it, well they just burden everyone.. if theres no reasons holding u back why you can't do something like get a job.
think of the money he has been given for free.. and where it could go.. if there was less ppl taking freebies off the govt that are not needed.. we'd all be better off..
He's really done nothing useful and his current status in my opinion is useless.. he may as well be dead..
For the benefit of all, I would like to post a little compendium taken from Access to Insight on Right Speech (sama vaca). I've taken it from a word doc, so I don't have the link anymore. If you would like, I could find it, but you'll need to give me until my lunch break. Anyway, here it is:
Right Speech
samma vaca Source: This anthology prepared by jtb for Access to Insight.
Right Speech is the third of the eight path factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, and belongs to the virtue division of the path.
The definition
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."
— SN XLV.8
Five keys to right speech
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?
"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."
— AN V.198
The danger in lying
"For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie."
The person who lies,
who transgress in this one thing,
transcending concern for the world beyond:
there's no evil
he might not do.
— Iti 25
Speak only words that do no harm
"One should speak only that word by which one would not torment oneself nor harm others. That word is indeed well spoken.
"One should speak only pleasant words, words which are acceptable (to others). What one speaks without bringing evils to others is pleasant."
— Thag XXI
Self-purification through well-chosen speech
"And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action?
"There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.
"Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord.
"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large.
"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.
"This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action."
— AN X.176
Its relation to the other factors of the path
"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. And what is wrong speech? Lying, divisive tale-bearing, abusive speech, & idle chatter. This is wrong speech...
"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech."
— MN 117
The criteria for deciding what is worth saying
[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.
[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.
[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.
[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.
[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
— MN 58
Speak only the speech
that neither torments self
nor does harm to others.
That speech is truly well spoken.
Speak only endearing speech,
speech that is welcomed.
Speech when it brings no evil
to others
is pleasant.
— Sn III.3
Reflect on your speech, before, during, and after speaking
[The Buddha speaks to his son, Rahula:] "Whenever you want to perform a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I want to perform — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then any verbal act of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then any verbal act of that sort is fit for you to do.
"While you are performing a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.
"Having performed a verbal act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities."
— MN 61
Kinds of speech to be avoided by contemplatives
"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these — talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not — he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — 'You understand this doctrine and discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!' — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue."
— DN 2
Ten wholesome topics of conversation
"There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful — to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects."
— AN X.69
How to admonish another skillfully
"O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another should do so after investigating five conditions in himself and after establishing five other conditions in himself. What are the five conditions which he should investigate in himself?
[1] "Am I one who practices purity in bodily action, flawless and untainted...?
[2] "Am I one who practices purity in speech, flawless and untainted...?
[3] "Is the heart of goodwill, free from malice, established in me towards fellow-farers in the holy life...?
[4] "Am I or am I not one who has heard much, who bears in mind what he has heard, who stores up what he has heard? Those teachings which are good alike in their beginning, middle, and ending, proclaiming perfectly the spirit and the letter of the utterly purified holy life — have such teachings been much heard by me, borne in mind, practiced in speech, pondered in the heart and rightly penetrated by insight...?
[5] "Are the Patimokkhas [rules of conduct for monks and nuns] in full thoroughly learned by heart, well-analyzed with thorough knowledge of their meanings, clearly divided sutta by sutta and known in minute detail by me...?
"These five conditions must be investigated in himself.
"And what other five conditions must be established in himself?
[1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not?
[2] "Do I speak of facts, or not?
[3] "Do I speak gently or harshly?
[4] "Do I speak profitable words or not?
[5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?
"O bhikkhus, these five conditions are to be investigated in himself and the latter five established in himself by a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another."
— AN V (From The Patimokkha, Ñanamoli Thera, trans.)
Celebrin,
I see what you're saying & don't necessarily disagree with all of it, though you are quite guilty of a few logical fallacies (sweeping generalization among others). My point in posting this is that if you follow these guidelines, what you say will certainly be well received and taken as you intended. People here have a hard time getting past all the harshness in your speech, so it's difficult to have a civil discussion.
Thank you very much for posting this, not1not2. I think everyone, myself included and not just Celebrin, can benefit from this. In fact, seeing as how this is a forum and speech (or writing) is such a key element, it would be incredibly beneficial if a guide to Right Speech were posted within view of everyone who visits or frequents this site.
Firstly, i would like to highlight my favorite quote from my previous post. It is very comprehensive:
The criteria for deciding what is worth saying [1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.
[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.
[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.
[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.
[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
— MN 58
This is the essence of truthful, ethical & effective communication. The closer we can get to this, the less our communications get hung up in side-issues of delivery, tone, etc. That said, let's get past the manner & discuss the points Celebrin is making.
Dependence/independence-
IMO, the less reliant we are on others, the less of a burden we are to them. However, if we take this to an extreme, we can end up isolated & destitute (without the ability to handle such a state). I think there is a middle way here, where we both recognize entirely how dependent we are on literally everything for our existence & livelihood, and yet strive not to be a burden on others or make our happiness contingent on others. This sort of attitude builds up humility & appreciation for others & helps us to recognize the effort others put forth to provide things for us that make our lives livable. It also helps generate a compassionate attitude that makes us want to provide more & take less. It is a reversal of our normal self-centred mindset. To me, that's what the Bodhisattva Vow is all about. And the goal here is to attain a state of liberation that is capable of helping others out of their suffering.
Anyway, I think my main contention with you Celebrin, is that while you are right to some extent that most individuals are selfish & increase the burden on others, I think you are way too focused on others. Or at least it appears that way. You may have just been raising a simple point that you wanted to discuss, but from the consistent tone you have demonstrated, I think you are really disturbed by these people more than you are letting on. Forgive my projection here, but that is just the impression I am getting. Once again, I dont' really know.
My point is that you are making yourself suffer unnecessarily by letting this dominate your mind. The buddha described this as getting shot by an arrow & then turning around and shooting yourself as a response. This is creating an unskillful state of mind which is showing up in your posts & making the people here have an averse reaction (it's creating suffering for them now too). So it seems you are just letting the arrows fly at random. We are simply deflecting them, though some of us may be shooting back. Some of us are even offering medicine for your apparent wounds. Please take our suggestions in that light.
Beyond all that, I wish you well & have not really taken a whole heck of a lot of offense at your statements. I do think you could hold the mirror up to yourself a little more often & drop the sweeping generalizations, though.
May you be well,
May you be free from anxiety,
May you be free from all forms of suffering.
Thank you very much for posting this, not1not2. I think everyone, myself included and not just Celebrin, can benefit from this. In fact, seeing as how this is a forum and speech (or writing) is such a key element, it would be incredibly beneficial if a guide to Right Speech were posted within view of everyone who visits or frequents this site.
You are very welcome. And I agree, Right Speech is essential in forums such as this.
Reading your posts absolutely breaks my heart. To have such intolerance for others is so very very sad.
I hope that you take the time to read over the posts that have been written in response to your posts. There have been some wonderful comments that I'm sure if you would seriously read you would find most helpful.
I ask you to please do one thing. Put yourself in someone elses shoes. Something I don't think you have ever done. If you could only walk 1 day in Brigid's shoes for example I think you would feel great sorrow for the things that you have said in this thread.
I have also found in life that you need to be careful. Karma has a way of coming back and biting us in the butt. Or you can also say,"you reap what you sow". Not only what you do for others counts but what you say, how you say it and what thoughts you have.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to express your feelings about others the way you do. I only hope that when you are lifting those things for ppl that they don't see in your eyes and your actions how you truly feel about them.
Maybe when you help them lift things it would help you to think about...... This is how my mom and dad or grandmother and grandfather will be some day. I hope someone will want to help them and feel kindness towards them when the time comes. Maybe this exercise would help you to learn some compassion towards others. I sure hope so.
I know that you feel that we have misunderstood your posts. Maybe while you are going back and reading others comments you might consider reading your own and how they actually sound to others. I don't see how if you reread your posts that you too will not come to the same conclusion as the rest of us on how they sound.
blerrr.. man does this bore me. can we end the discussion.. and ppl stop lamenting that i can't look beyond myself and saying im extreme. Cus thats pretty much an irrelevant, totally preconcepted and labeled based view of an actual person u don't know.
as some other posts say.. without taking it to the extreme level its perfectly correct. I never meant anything i said to extreme level, which i explained several times..
yet a lot of ppl come in and ignore this.. which makes me feel that u see me as some sort of hitler complaning against crippled demented old ppl.. which pretty much conflicts with all i've said.. don't burden others un-necessarily if you can solve the problem easily. Lazyness is no excuse.
as for being insulted by my posts.. this is your problem too..
you let your own ego take some beatings.. thats not wholey my fault.. and u shouldn't blame me for your own problems. If you feel this way about me.. i dread to think what would happen if you got mugged ,attacked or harassed by a local 'chav'.. i really do..
it doesn't bother me a whole lot.. but again i say.. people lay their feebleness on me.. when its totally un-needed.. thats all i'm saying. Put some effort in and solve your problems forever.. rather than let me do ur work forever. Tis very simple. Reduce everyones suffering and ur own.. by making urself stronger.. stead of sitting there doing zilch expecting good ol' celebrin to help u out whenever u can't do something and watch him get back cramp.
blerrr.. man does this bore me. can we end the discussion.. and ppl stop lamenting that i can't look beyond myself and saying im extreme. Cus thats pretty much an irrelevant, totally preconcepted and labeled based view of an actual person u don't know.
You're extremely insulting, Celebrin. I don't know what "preconcepted means", despite four years of university, but I certainly know when the pot's calling the kettle black. I'm hugely disappointed in you and talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You refuse to see the truth of what we're saying and you persist in your wrong view and wrong speech. None of our reactions are "our" problem. We only responded out of concern and compassion for you. You're the one who has the problem, and it's an ugly one. See ya.
as in preconceptions.. i never said me english was amazing.. but seeing me based on preconcepts and limiting me in such a way is very ignorant. U know u can't comprehend me fully.. so whats with that?
I think u know that.. but u continue to find any possible new insults in my speech for fun ..
u can take w/e u want wildy out of context.. but u have no real authority telling me anything on any actual basis other than ur own mind.. that means nothing in other words.
yet more preconceptions and labels, i applaud u. Ur clear understanding of the path is obvious. So les carry on of ur little festival of labels.
Arnold swartzenegger abuses children who gropes women, Stallone is a Rapist with a pacemaker.. hmm what next..
George bush is a dumn redneck monkey boy who likes friendly fire and enjoys running over his bodyguards in his spare time..
anyone else wanna add.. something while we are at it? maybe you should tell me which colour is my favourite? and what my favourite food is.. maybe u wanna tell me im an alien?
*by the way its called sarcasm* im not actually angry..
As a group, the members of this sangha has a high proportion of people who are addicted to many different substances, either actively or currently in recovery. Those of us who have confronted our addictions with the help of fellowship and therapy must be aware that nicotine addiction is among the most difficult to "kick". Anyone who has been to AA or NA meetings will have heard others tell of their struggles with their drug of choice and that, once that demon is chained for a while, if nicotine is then addressed, it resists harder than heroin or alcohol.
Celebrin: your mode of expression is abrasive and insulting. You want us to take you seriously but you whine and insult. In the end, that is what you will get back. Perhaps that is actually what the 'Celebrin within' believes that you deserve. It is wrong!
If you go on being judgmental, you leave yourself open to the judgment of others and it is unlikely to be kind.
Why not try out the harder task of speaking kindly and gently? If someone 'winds you up', instead of justifying your own critical response, practise examining yourself rather than them. Find the parts of yourself that are like that which you dislike in others: they are there because they are in all of us.
It is easy to love the lovable. Joy will come in the morning and happiness at dusk when we have learned to love the unlovable.
Thank you, Simon! You have said exactly what I was getting ready to say. Actually, in addition to being insulting and abrasive as you have mentioned, I found the post in question to be very condescending and patronizing.
As one of the people here that suffer from different addictions, namely alcoholism and smoking, I can relate to those who suffer from any type addiction. I have overcome my addictions by seeking proper help for them as well as helping others who are still suffering from these same addictions. However, I do not have that attitude of "I am better than thou because I have overcome my addiction," instead I realize that I am only a drink or a smoke away from being in the same situation as those still actively practicing their addictions. The ones still in active addiction help "keep it green" for me and for that, I thank them by responding with compassion and understanding as well as being eager to help them if they want my help. We all have our various paths to walk down and some of us take longer than others and that's as it should be.
yet more preconceptions and labels, i applaud u. Ur clear understanding of the path is obvious. So les carry on of ur little festival of labels.
Arnold swartzenegger abuses children who gropes women, Stallone is a Rapist with a pacemaker.. hmm what next..
George bush is a dumn redneck monkey boy who likes friendly fire and enjoys running over his bodyguards in his spare time..
anyone else wanna add.. something while we are at it? maybe you should tell me which colour is my favourite? and what my favourite food is.. maybe u wanna tell me im an alien?
*by the way its called sarcasm* im not actually angry..
Celebrin,
I don't know you per se, but I am familiar with your attitude that you are conveying through your posts. I am reading contemptuousness and anger in addition to just plain rude and insulting. The reason I know is because I have been there. Yes, I have felt as you do now and I was so miserable I wanted to die! I did get help and I feel much better and---no---I don't feel superior to you or anyone else. The only difference between you and me is that I got help and I realized that we are ALL human beings with faults and as a fellow human being, I did not want to acknowledge that I had such terrible thoughts and attitudes. When I sought help, I realized that there was so much truth in the old saying "Reading the truth about yourself hurts now, doesn't it?". I feel compassion for you and I shall be praying and chanting for you. Now, of course, I know that your reply will be for us (or me) to not bother to do so and that you "don't care" what any of us think along with a bunch of other defensive and insulting retorts. In my opinion, it seems to me that you do care because you keep replying no matter what anyone posts and it's full of venomous and insulting remarks. What a shame! I wish you luck on your voyage of self-discovery. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, we all have our respective paths of discovery to walk down and it takes some of us longer than others to get it. Good luck!
One more thing,
What does mentioning the shortcomings of Governor Arnold Swartzenegger and President George Bush have to do with any of this? Is it because I am an American or what? If that's what you meant, then you are being rude and hateful as well as being ethnocentric. How childish! I have not mentioned any shortcomings of anyone from the UK nor has anyone else done so. Someone's national origin has nothing to do with this because we are all human beings from all over the world. If your intention was to "slam me for being American" because you felt the need to be defensive since it is quite obvious I don't agree with what you have posted then you are really to be pitied here because you are simply trying to attack me personally. What a shame! If this was NOT your intention, can you post a reason WHY of all the so-called "weak-willed ppl" that you have been whining about, why did you choose only American examples in your reply to me? Oh, one more thing---Governor Swartzenegger is from Austria originally but he became a U.S. citizen which is why he is Governor of California. Also, you mention "Stallone who is a Rapist with a pacemaker." I am not sure of who you are refering to---are you refering to Sylvester Stallone the American actor or to Stalin, who was over Russia? Can you elaborate, please? That's also another reason why others have posted to you that you need to be clear and consise in your posts because they are all over the place as well as confusing. Whatever. I am done with this. It is readily apparent that you will persist in spewing your venomous, hateful, and condesending words no matter what anyone replies to you.
pff.. i dont feel any anger .. at this exact second.. and i was making a point. the frequent labelling and preconceptions made toward me and yet again in ur post.
the names r nothing to do with u being american.. they came to mind.. and apart from tony blair.. i cant think of anyone.. cus im not greta with uk actors.. but these labels mean nothing. Its the same with all preconcepts..
you saying i'm angry, means absolutely nothing.. and it certainly doesn't mean i am angry. Thats why i made the examples.. they are totally speculative.. and thats all they will ever be.. they hold no guarantee.. and saying im angry really is nothing more than a mere guess.
Adiana,
In regards to your previous statement, please note that Celebrin stated he was being sarcastic in the last line of the post you quoted.
All,
I think that this thread has become unnecessarily divisive & confrontational. I think we all need to step back & try to listen deeply to each other & not act on the initial feelings that are invoked by one another's statements.
Comments
May I ask how you, yourself, know that these people you speak of are ignorant? and what exactly does that mean? It is wonderful when someone notices and appreciates your kindness. However, I have to ask myself, "Is that why I'm kind to others? so that I get positive attention?" I feel that it is important to be compassionate to each individual, not so that I, myself, am rewarded per se, but so that the individual feels like someone actually does care about them. As far as I can tell, most people who act rudely or do inconsiderate things to others need affection and kindness in order to help them change their ways. Yet, I don't think that we should be kind to others just so that they change but rather, because they simply are human and every human makes mistakes and needs to be loved in order to be healthy. You said, "I think the same of smokers... they [are] killing themselves and fuelling their addiction to make themselves only happy when smoking. They are very weak minded..." In my experience, most people who continue to smoke is because they are addicted. I don't know if you have ever been addicted to anything, but I can imagine that it is extremely difficult to stop smoking once addicted. I think it a little harsh to call them "very weak minded." Many of the people I know want to stop smoking. I appreciate the fact that you also stated, "i still treat em as human beings." Though, have you ever thought about those who are 'gluttoness'? There are so many things that people do because of 'addiction', whatever that may mean. My point being that a lot of us do things that hurt us physically, emotionally, spiritually etc. and we don't even necessarily realize that we are doing those things. We keep on doing these things because they are either engrained in us to do so or because we unconciously have some sort of 'addiction' to them. "these guys aren't bothered with anything.. they on par live in a mental ditch, physically weak minds and bodys.. due to ignorance.. to me they are practically walking ghosts.. corpses.. zombies.. u can't get through to them, they continue wandering about." This statement seems particularly harsh to me. How do you know for sure that none of 'these' people are trying to change or trying to become healthier individuals? I'm not purposefully trying to pick apart everything that you said, I am just trying to express my thoughts on these issues, because I believe there may be more to each individual than what meets our perception. Well, that's all I feel like saying at this point and I hope it finds you well.
Celebrin...Engage Brain before operating Mouth.
I see adults feeding their kids sweets and junk.. which has resulted in them becoming obese. This is the adults weak mind, and almost entirely their ignorance which has caused this. Instead of combating it and saying, right ur not getting more sweets and take away.. to that level.. they continue to throw money at them and let them roam down to the chippie and corner shop 4 sweets.
old ppl and middle aged ppl who can't lift their baskets or shopping bags.. which weight nothing.. all u need to do is work out a bit.. thas all and life will be easier, and u won't need to depend on others.. they know this but are too lazy and ignorant to do it.
I know full well i have my own 'toxins' and i can't always help but let them in sometimes. But tbh i gave up alco, and if needed i believe i could very easily give up smoking if i did it.
it is to do with strength and channelling energy, understanding. Many ppl as u shud know are too blind to even attempt to look outside themselves and you can't help them.
Its like those silly shows 'wife swap' its rare either party ever ever actually take a second and look at each others needs from a totally outside view, and think well hang on, I'm forcing my own opinion on this guy and its not working, and also i'm not listening to anyone.
u can say thats ironic from me.. but pff.. i'm not like that. i give em kindness and i don't lecture them and still they treat u like dirt out of ignorance, they wanna hit u cus u don't fit their profile or u don't look the way they like ppl to look or even because our shop network is down and i can't do what they want.
I'm fine with all that but they are stil weak.. and surely u have to encompass that. You have to gauge who you can talk to.. and about what.. cus otherwise it will look like you are attacking them no matter how compassionate u talk to them.
they have unconquered minds, much more so than mine.. i do have more ot learn but im on the way and i try to improve myself and look outside myself.. i don't attack others.. conquered minds can look at things without letting self come in the way, they can see what others cannot.
Celebrin: your mode of expression is abrasive and insulting. You want us to take you seriously but you whine and insult. In the end, that is what you will get back. Perhaps that is actually what the 'Celebrin within' believes that you deserve. It is wrong!
If you go on being judgmental, you leave yourself open to the judgment of others and it is unlikely to be kind.
Why not try out the harder task of speaking kindly and gently? If someone 'winds you up', instead of justifying your own critical response, practise examining yourself rather than them. Find the parts of yourself that are like that which you dislike in others: they are there because they are in all of us.
It is easy to love the lovable. Joy will come in the morning and happiness at dusk when we have learned to love the unlovable.
i applaud those who are trying to giev up things but they must admit they lack the full strength, its not an insult as such, but to those who have no intention of doing anything outside themselves.. well
i'm gettign stronger over time, and ill be able eventually to expel most toxins, and so will others who try and actually attempt to improve and learn.
as 4 judgement, you are judged whether u say anything or not. By ur image,ur stance ur talk,ur walk.., ur face and expression.. before u have ever spoken a single word ppl already have a broad image of what they think u r. You can ignore those judgements on many ppl yes, but a lot of the time they are a true reflection of the person. Ppl with grave fear in their eyes, ppl with angry faces.. and agressive body stances.. they deserve a chance yea.. but don't be suprised when they match the profile
You're so way off the mark and so far away from being "strong" it's almost amusing. Almost. It's none of your concern what other people do or don't do. Look only at yourself and your own weaknesses and ignorance and you'll have plenty enough to deal with for many lifetimes.
and another...
"Dear Lord, Change this world.
Begin, I pray thee, with me."
The only way - THE ONLY WAY - you can gain compassionate and Loving insight into the Life of others, is to drastically bring about positive, non-judgemental, compassionate and Unconditional Loving for them, in yourself.
kinda a bit backward saying that u have no self and talk to me like that but w/e.
and brigid u don't know me, lately ive been insanely calm, i can handle a lot more than u think. I doubt u have to put up with the stuff i do.. and i doubt u cud keep calm with the stuff i see at work.
I believe in treating urself as if u are already dead, and therefore not holding back.
Physical and Mental weakness are big problems in society and people.. so what the hell is wrong with saying we all need to improve on these notes..
if u wallow in ur own filth.. what use is that.. to u and everyone else you are a burden.
Strength to me is to able to look at anything and keep ur cool, and to make decisions not based on self or panic. I say ppl are weak not to realise their weaknesse's and try to change it.. too blind to see.. its perfectly true about many.
You're missing a HUGE part of the picture here. Where on earth is your humility and kindness??? Surely you understand there can be no strength whatsoever without kindness in your heart and mind.
The reason you're so focused on the behaviours of others is because you're feeling threatened and separate from them and you're perpetuating that separation by your own thoughts. All these people you talk about so much are every bit as good, as important and as ignorant as you are, just in different ways. You are in no way, I repeat, NO WAY, superior to them. Neither am I. The question you need to ask yourself at this point is "Why do I feel the need to be superior in any way to these people?" The outrageous lack of compassion, kindness and humility you show in your posts betrays a deep lack of confidence in yourself. You're misunderstanding the Buddha's doctrine of "not self" and twisting it out of all recognition to suit your need. You've turned it into some kind of nihilistic permission to say whatever you please about people you know nothing about. You have a lot more learning to do, grasshopper.
I think this may be addressed to me. We clearly have a different definition of what is insulting. For example, you say: I consider calling people lazy to be insulting and judgmental - you may not.
What I wrote was said because I have the strange notion that, underneath the surliness of your way of expressing yourself, there lurks a really nice person whom you rarely permit us to see. I also believe that your life will be happier when you see the buddha-potential in every person you meet.
I vow with all beings
to remember that we both have two nostrils
and the same implacable fate.
Accepting the fault of another,
I vow with all beings
to encourage the original talent
that endeavors to make itself known.
A lotus for each and every one of you,
all Buddhas to be.
why should i have to frequently lift ppls stuff at work.. cus ppl have let themselves go or never been strong and not fixed it.. it really isn't necessary.. this is not me seperating them.. its very true that they are too lazy to fix the problem they have.
nothing to do with compassion.. i lift out of compassion, but really this is un-needed and out of their lazyness to fix it that i need to do it.
most ppl don't see that they can fix this or other things like their childrens disclipine, but if they stopped or paid attention its a very easy thing to do and they know it.
this is not divisionism but making someone else do stuff for you, because u can't be bothered to solve ur own problems.Trust me, i work in a shop, the amount of times u have to point stuff out and lift ppls stuff.. majority of it is completely un-necessary and if i worked somewhere else i wouldn't have to do it.It not whinging, but very realistic..
sooo many ppl are too lazy to fix their problems, some too blind to see them, some too weak to change them.. some on the edge, some have got there.. we have almost endless troubles, but out of coutersy to others,.. pls for the love of god solve the basic problems..
I do, however, have an idea of what your abilities are and of what your attitude is toward your fellow man. You've made it abundantly clear and are transparent to anyone with even a basic level of understanding. You talk about people you don't know with utter contempt and an arrogance borne of fear and ignorance. You fill your posts on a Buddhist board with thinly veiled hatred and are then surprised when you receive a negative reaction from people. If I were you I'd get used to the negative reactions until you learn how to generate empathy and understanding for all the beings with which you share this planet.
This expresses quite well how I feel these days when I'm talking to you.
"I see adults feeding their kids sweets and junk.. which has resulted in them becoming obese. This is the adults weak mind, and almost entirely their ignorance which has caused this."
There are many problems other than "eating sweets and junk" that come into play when talking about becoming obese. I used to eat all the dessert, pop and fast food that I wanted. I never gained a pound because I have an extremely fast metabolism. Others have slow metabolisms and thyroid problems, etc. So I don't think it wise to be so quick to judge others about this.
"old ppl and middle aged ppl who can't lift their baskets or shopping bags.. which weight nothing.. all u need to do is work out a bit.. thas all and life will be easier, and u won't need to depend on others.. they know this but are too lazy and ignorant to do it."
I try, but fail, to see the supposed compassion that you have. The statement quoted above is one of the WORST and most insulting posts I've read on any forum. As Brigid mentioned, some have physical problems that go beyond just 'not working out.' I'm far from an expert on Buddhism but I believe that Buddha would not condone anything you have said thus far.
"I know full well i have my own 'toxins' and i can't always help but let them in sometimes. But tbh i gave up alco, and if needed i believe i could very easily give up smoking if i did it."
I am sorry, but in over half of your sentences, I can't tell what you are saying because of your poor grammar and spelling. Would that put you under the category of being "weak-minded?" You, as do I, have NO idea what it would be like to give up smoking. No person can say "this or that is easy to do or easy to give up" when they have not experienced such a thing.
"Many ppl as u shud know are too blind to even attempt to look outside themselves and you can't help them."
Again, as Brigid put so well, this really does sum up the attitude that I have toward you.
"Its like those silly shows 'wife swap' its rare either party ever ever actually take a second and look at each others needs from a totally outside view, and think well hang on, I'm forcing my own opinion on this guy and its not working, and also i'm not listening to anyone."
I'm not sure what you are saying here. I think it would help to type a little slower and fully explain your thoughts so that we can respond appropriately.
".. i'm not like that. i give em kindness and i don't lecture them and still they treat u like dirt out of ignorance"
If you "give em kindness" then why do you feel the incessant need to convey your negative thoughts toward others?
"they are stil weak.. and surely u have to encompass that."
Surely, I do NOT encompass that because I do NOT know each individual fully and neither do you. I can't choose to just assume that I know someone inside and out in order to make such harsh judgements toward them.
"they have unconquered minds, much more so than mine.. i don't attack others.. conquered minds can look at things without letting self come in the way, they can see what others cannot."
I almost thought this statement to be a joke when I first read it. Either way, it made me laugh. If your mind is so 'conquered' whatever that means, then why do you feel the need to put others down and raise yourself above them? You don't attack others?! You have verbally attacked virtually everyone with your rude, disregardful statements.
Wow, that's about all I can say and yes, I am upset. Though, I hope that being upset I didn't purposefully hurt your feelings, for that is not my aim. I would only suggest to atleast ponder what each one of us has said merely to gain understanding of how we think and then you can decide for yourself what you see to be true.
I may be old and unable to lift weights any more but
I can still hug.
I'm sorry to read that people act in a way that you find upsetting or simply frustrating. I feel the same way sometimes; I don't know, but I'm guessing that we all do.
Does the fact that we may feel that way, make others "weak", "blind", or whatever? I don't know. Does it matter if they are or aren't? If I remember rightly, on the "Buddhism without rebirth" thread, you made what I thought were some wise points about the use of the "label" "Buddhist", as in "I am / am not a Buddhist". I think - and you'll correct me if I'm wrong - that you were saying that the word "Buddhist" is just a "label", an attachment almost, and that you are what you are with or without applying a "label" to yourself.
I thought then that those were really wise points. I wonder if arguing about whether other people are "weak" etc isn't just applying more labels. What does "weak" mean, after all? By reference to what standard? Like you in the "Buddism without rebirth" thread, they are what they are, and like all of us they have their joys and their sorrows, and like all of us, you and me included, they need a hug from time to time. Maybe the label we're tempted to apply to people matters less than the compassion we can show them, and each other.
Martin.
"According to the situation,there are times when you must rely on on a person for something or other. If this is done repeatedly, it becomes a matter of importuning that person and can be rather rude. If there is something that must be done, it is better not to rely on others."
I do not attempt to insult or label and i appologise for i do have the tendency to rather crude when making a point. I will try and do generally try to avoid this, maybe i can ask others to mindful of my crudeness in that it is not meant to be simply crude but an actual point.PPl are as they are, but all have some weak points.. even if they undescribable, many of us label ourselves and create the weakness or exaggerate it.
If there is somethign to be done, we must try to do it, we must alwasy seek to improve and have a role model. or even singular role models for each particular field. I do not think if i was me 3 years ago it would be fair to burden others by my then lack of strength and rightly so i didn't, i realised and fixed it, same with continuosly improving my diet or having a smile on my face.
It is out of a weakness for others that we pull nasty fearful faces at all who meet our gaze.. this is not being weak but having a 'weakness'.. realise it and solve it.
I'm stunned by Simon's comment. Simon, you make me happy. Thank you.
Celebrin,
Again, you're completely wrong and your belief in human "weakness" is based entirely on ignorance. You are making reckless judgments about people and you simply don't know what you're talking about. A few weeks ago scientists finally found what they had always thought existed--the "fat" gene, the gene that some people carry and others do not that makes them more prone to obesity. I'd look into this if I were you so that you can come to a better understanding of what it means.
It's also a well known fact now, especially among brain researchers, that addiction has no connection to "human weakness" in any way and to say so simply betrays an ignorant and contemptuous view of humanity. Addiction is a severe brain disorder and those who suffer from it have as much control over it as you do over the ability to flap your arms and fly. I suggest you do a little research into the physiology and biology of the brain before making hateful, ignorant and completely false statements about your fellow human being.
I'm really tired of this, Celebrin, and I would have thought it to be beneath you. But I guess it's not. The only remedy now is to educate yourself. You're doing to your mind exactly what the Buddha told us NOT to do and now you're going to have to undo all the bad training you've done and redo it all in the correct fashion. This is serious, Celebrin, really, really serious. You've misunderstood the teachings and you've started down the wrong road. You're wasting your precious chance as a human to train your mind properly. Please take these words seriously.
Every time you think you can be entirely independent, and that you don't need anyone, or can function perfectly well without relying on anybody else....
Take a look at the garment you are wearing....
The fabric was woven by somebody.... then someone else cut it and sewed it.... and that person had breakfast - maybe cereal - grown, manufactured, packetted by someone else.... who received the produce on a big cargo lorry driven by someody else...along a tarmac road laid by somebody else.... so you owe your garment to a whole load of functioning beings....
And easy as it is to grow impatient with the elderly person holding you up on the pavement, as they carry their bags slowly....That person might once have been a scientist, a nurse, a doctor, a teacher.... and that person has made a difference....
They haven't always been old, but they were here before you, and they played their part.....
Tell me.... what conscious, valuable and constructive difference do you think you are making to the lives of others, right now, Celebrin?
did u read the quote or not? cus i think more wisdom comes from it then any of u, to be quite honest. I also think it explains stuff clearer than i can. I do what i can to no frequently burden others when it isn't necessary.. what ur saying is outta context..
i never said if u can't change to not depend on others, then ur weak.. i said if u can u should and i stick by that.
so i say this an old person crossing the road who is 111.. yea id help them.. cus they can't do it on their own and they can't change.. again outta context pls listen before u start labelling and lecturing me.
turning into a classic thread where ppl continually tell me im wrong and ask me a question i have long already answered... then when i answer that they go back to start and as yet another question already answered..
Sorry!
Brigid... you should be careful doing that... some of us appreciate your head as it is!
Celebrin: I'm completely new in here and must admit I know next to nothing about buddhism, but even *I* can tell that you are very wrong.
Even IF people 'should' (physically or mentally) be able to help themselves, there might just be a million reasons why they don't do it.. How can you be the judge about whether something is easy for somebody else??? Easy compared to what?
First of all, it would greatly help the means and effort of communication if you were to write properly, use proper punctuation, not keep using txt abbvns and talk to us like people, not ppl....Nobody else on this site resorts to such language, purely and simply because it isn't an effective way to put your point over...
Which brings me.....
......Secondly, if you feel you are being mis-interpreted, it may well be that in your effort to get all your thoughts 'down on paper', you are not putting them across effectively.
You may well feel that we are ganging up on you and not hearing you - but if we ALL feel that way - maybe it is WE who have a point, and it's you, rather, who may just need to take a step back and re-evaluate what it is that you are trying to say.
Because whatever, why-ever - we are definitely NOT getting it.
Am I right that the quotation to which you refer is this one? The key words appear to be, as you point out, "according to the situation" but I am more concerned with the last sentence.
What worries me is that such an assertion is blatantly untrue, however valid the opening. At no time in our lives are we independent of others. We have relied on our parents for our birth, on others for food and clothing every day, on the community for jobs and services. Where, in all this, can we draw the the conclusion at which the Hagakure Analects arrive? I ask this, particularly, in the context of the Jewels of Refuge.
Whereas I could find arguments within bushido or the pioneer mythologies for self-sufficiency as a high good, within Buddhism as understood by most here, I dare presume, the Third Jewel, the Sangha, is a refuge in interdependence as well as a refuge of knowledge and liberation.
The Hagakure quotation assumes, in its syntax and phrasing, that there actually exists a way to live in which there is no reliance on others. I would challenge that. I would even challenge that it represents the message of the Analects. After all, do they not also say:
What is more, I find that it is a mindset that has some very damaging outcomes both for the individual who holds it and for the society in which they live. In Transactional Analysis terms, it is the I+U- (I'm OK; you're not-OK) position. The result of this position is that the person in the I+U-, condemned as we all are to interact with others and the world around them, can only perceieve all received transactions (strokes) as negative because coming from a negative source.
There is, however, much that is good to be learned from looking, with compassionate eyes, at our own responsibility as possible prop to those who need us. You are quite right that care of our health and fitness, insofar as it is within our capacity, enables us to serve better. In the old legend of Sir Perceval, he trains to be a knight because he aspired to the Code of Chivalry with its emphasis on protection of the weak.
Forgive me if this has been a little lengthy but you do raise an important point in showing us that we had responded to your manner rather than to the content of your post.
1. Anguish is everywhere.
2. We desire permanent existence for ourselves and for our loved ones, and we desire to prove ourselves independent of others and superior to them. These desires conflict with the way things are: nothing abides, and everything and everyone depends upon everything and everyone else. This conflict causes our anguish, and we project this anguish on those we meet.
3. Release from anguish comes with the personal acknowledgment and resolve: we are here together very briefly, so let us accept reality fully and take care of one another while we can.
4.This acknowledgment and resolve are realized by following the Eightfold Path.
I think this speaks volumes with regards to this particular thread.
i should not do so? because theres no reason to change? even thouigh i am really burdening ppl completely un-necessarily
i find many aspects in books i agree with and ones i ignore.. or can't understand out of bad wording. The hagakur ei belive is speaking of un-necessary dependance, this is not things which we need to depend on
the samurai would depend on his master, thats necessary.We depend on foreign countries for food thats necessary.This is completely nothign to do with un-necesary items such as makign ppl do ur work for u out of lazyness to make urself able to do it.
If you can't catch fish, go get a rod, don't make someone else to fish for u. If it takes you time to make one, by all means ask someone else for help while u complete it. If you can't get the rod or make one then its necessary to get someone else.
If you like, this is the great debate in Nietzsche and one which I believe is of vital importance today. His total rejection of compassion as a basis for ethics in the Uebermensch finds too many echoes in today's culture for my taste. I find a completely different ethical base within Buddhism.
i have a friend who is 20 now.. and hes never had a job and lives in his nans house, off her food,electricity and so on.. he's on job seekers.. now someone tell me that hes doing anythign but taking stuff thats completely un-necessary. This has little to do with compassion.. its pretty much a disgrace in my eyes.. he recently bought a ton of pc games using his benefit pay.. he refuses to go out, and i invite him round but hes too lazy to get the bus.
i mean seriously tell me hes not the perfect example.. living at home in seclusion taking the countrys taxe's.. totally un-necessary... i have compassion for him, i gave him a thich nhat hahn book.. to read to see if he would pick some stuff up and get out the house, and do something.. eitehr education or a job.. hell even a paper round would be something lol.
He read it but never picked up some of teh things that really should hit him hard in the head.. so hard that his entire essence should wets its pants.
ppl who refuse to realise their weak points and refuse to do anythign possible about it, well they just burden everyone.. if theres no reasons holding u back why you can't do something like get a job.
think of the money he has been given for free.. and where it could go.. if there was less ppl taking freebies off the govt that are not needed.. we'd all be better off..
He's really done nothing useful and his current status in my opinion is useless.. he may as well be dead..
Celebrin,
I see what you're saying & don't necessarily disagree with all of it, though you are quite guilty of a few logical fallacies (sweeping generalization among others). My point in posting this is that if you follow these guidelines, what you say will certainly be well received and taken as you intended. People here have a hard time getting past all the harshness in your speech, so it's difficult to have a civil discussion.
take care & be well
_/\_
metta
This is the essence of truthful, ethical & effective communication. The closer we can get to this, the less our communications get hung up in side-issues of delivery, tone, etc. That said, let's get past the manner & discuss the points Celebrin is making.
Dependence/independence-
IMO, the less reliant we are on others, the less of a burden we are to them. However, if we take this to an extreme, we can end up isolated & destitute (without the ability to handle such a state). I think there is a middle way here, where we both recognize entirely how dependent we are on literally everything for our existence & livelihood, and yet strive not to be a burden on others or make our happiness contingent on others. This sort of attitude builds up humility & appreciation for others & helps us to recognize the effort others put forth to provide things for us that make our lives livable. It also helps generate a compassionate attitude that makes us want to provide more & take less. It is a reversal of our normal self-centred mindset. To me, that's what the Bodhisattva Vow is all about. And the goal here is to attain a state of liberation that is capable of helping others out of their suffering.
Anyway, I think my main contention with you Celebrin, is that while you are right to some extent that most individuals are selfish & increase the burden on others, I think you are way too focused on others. Or at least it appears that way. You may have just been raising a simple point that you wanted to discuss, but from the consistent tone you have demonstrated, I think you are really disturbed by these people more than you are letting on. Forgive my projection here, but that is just the impression I am getting. Once again, I dont' really know.
My point is that you are making yourself suffer unnecessarily by letting this dominate your mind. The buddha described this as getting shot by an arrow & then turning around and shooting yourself as a response. This is creating an unskillful state of mind which is showing up in your posts & making the people here have an averse reaction (it's creating suffering for them now too). So it seems you are just letting the arrows fly at random. We are simply deflecting them, though some of us may be shooting back. Some of us are even offering medicine for your apparent wounds. Please take our suggestions in that light.
Beyond all that, I wish you well & have not really taken a whole heck of a lot of offense at your statements. I do think you could hold the mirror up to yourself a little more often & drop the sweeping generalizations, though.
May you be well,
May you be free from anxiety,
May you be free from all forms of suffering.
_/\_
metta
You are very welcome. And I agree, Right Speech is essential in forums such as this.
_/\_
metta
Reading your posts absolutely breaks my heart. To have such intolerance for others is so very very sad.
I hope that you take the time to read over the posts that have been written in response to your posts. There have been some wonderful comments that I'm sure if you would seriously read you would find most helpful.
I ask you to please do one thing. Put yourself in someone elses shoes. Something I don't think you have ever done. If you could only walk 1 day in Brigid's shoes for example I think you would feel great sorrow for the things that you have said in this thread.
I have also found in life that you need to be careful. Karma has a way of coming back and biting us in the butt. Or you can also say,"you reap what you sow". Not only what you do for others counts but what you say, how you say it and what thoughts you have.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to express your feelings about others the way you do. I only hope that when you are lifting those things for ppl that they don't see in your eyes and your actions how you truly feel about them.
Maybe when you help them lift things it would help you to think about...... This is how my mom and dad or grandmother and grandfather will be some day. I hope someone will want to help them and feel kindness towards them when the time comes. Maybe this exercise would help you to learn some compassion towards others. I sure hope so.
I know that you feel that we have misunderstood your posts. Maybe while you are going back and reading others comments you might consider reading your own and how they actually sound to others. I don't see how if you reread your posts that you too will not come to the same conclusion as the rest of us on how they sound.
Namaste'
WHY does this bother you so much?
as some other posts say.. without taking it to the extreme level its perfectly correct. I never meant anything i said to extreme level, which i explained several times..
yet a lot of ppl come in and ignore this.. which makes me feel that u see me as some sort of hitler complaning against crippled demented old ppl.. which pretty much conflicts with all i've said.. don't burden others un-necessarily if you can solve the problem easily. Lazyness is no excuse.
as for being insulted by my posts.. this is your problem too..
you let your own ego take some beatings.. thats not wholey my fault.. and u shouldn't blame me for your own problems. If you feel this way about me.. i dread to think what would happen if you got mugged ,attacked or harassed by a local 'chav'.. i really do..
it doesn't bother me a whole lot.. but again i say.. people lay their feebleness on me.. when its totally un-needed.. thats all i'm saying. Put some effort in and solve your problems forever.. rather than let me do ur work forever. Tis very simple. Reduce everyones suffering and ur own.. by making urself stronger.. stead of sitting there doing zilch expecting good ol' celebrin to help u out whenever u can't do something and watch him get back cramp.
I think u know that.. but u continue to find any possible new insults in my speech for fun ..
u can take w/e u want wildy out of context.. but u have no real authority telling me anything on any actual basis other than ur own mind.. that means nothing in other words.
and pls stop labelling me.. its getting ridiculous.. must be about 4 of u so far on this thread... :P
My sentiments exactly, Brigid!
Adiana:usflag:
Arnold swartzenegger abuses children who gropes women, Stallone is a Rapist with a pacemaker.. hmm what next..
George bush is a dumn redneck monkey boy who likes friendly fire and enjoys running over his bodyguards in his spare time..
anyone else wanna add.. something while we are at it? maybe you should tell me which colour is my favourite? and what my favourite food is.. maybe u wanna tell me im an alien?
*by the way its called sarcasm* im not actually angry..
Thank you, Simon! You have said exactly what I was getting ready to say. Actually, in addition to being insulting and abrasive as you have mentioned, I found the post in question to be very condescending and patronizing.
As one of the people here that suffer from different addictions, namely alcoholism and smoking, I can relate to those who suffer from any type addiction. I have overcome my addictions by seeking proper help for them as well as helping others who are still suffering from these same addictions. However, I do not have that attitude of "I am better than thou because I have overcome my addiction," instead I realize that I am only a drink or a smoke away from being in the same situation as those still actively practicing their addictions. The ones still in active addiction help "keep it green" for me and for that, I thank them by responding with compassion and understanding as well as being eager to help them if they want my help. We all have our various paths to walk down and some of us take longer than others and that's as it should be.
Adiana:usflag:
if u're telling me u have no weaknesse's then keep walking.. i am referring to personal weaknesses.. not being weak..
i'm not explaining anything again.. sumone close the thread pls..
too many ppl don't read anything and are labelling me.. kinda sucks :P like speaking to a 'priest' if u ask me
Celebrin,
I don't know you per se, but I am familiar with your attitude that you are conveying through your posts. I am reading contemptuousness and anger in addition to just plain rude and insulting. The reason I know is because I have been there. Yes, I have felt as you do now and I was so miserable I wanted to die! I did get help and I feel much better and---no---I don't feel superior to you or anyone else. The only difference between you and me is that I got help and I realized that we are ALL human beings with faults and as a fellow human being, I did not want to acknowledge that I had such terrible thoughts and attitudes. When I sought help, I realized that there was so much truth in the old saying "Reading the truth about yourself hurts now, doesn't it?". I feel compassion for you and I shall be praying and chanting for you. Now, of course, I know that your reply will be for us (or me) to not bother to do so and that you "don't care" what any of us think along with a bunch of other defensive and insulting retorts. In my opinion, it seems to me that you do care because you keep replying no matter what anyone posts and it's full of venomous and insulting remarks. What a shame! I wish you luck on your voyage of self-discovery. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, we all have our respective paths of discovery to walk down and it takes some of us longer than others to get it. Good luck!
One more thing,
What does mentioning the shortcomings of Governor Arnold Swartzenegger and President George Bush have to do with any of this? Is it because I am an American or what? If that's what you meant, then you are being rude and hateful as well as being ethnocentric. How childish! I have not mentioned any shortcomings of anyone from the UK nor has anyone else done so. Someone's national origin has nothing to do with this because we are all human beings from all over the world. If your intention was to "slam me for being American" because you felt the need to be defensive since it is quite obvious I don't agree with what you have posted then you are really to be pitied here because you are simply trying to attack me personally. What a shame! If this was NOT your intention, can you post a reason WHY of all the so-called "weak-willed ppl" that you have been whining about, why did you choose only American examples in your reply to me? Oh, one more thing---Governor Swartzenegger is from Austria originally but he became a U.S. citizen which is why he is Governor of California. Also, you mention "Stallone who is a Rapist with a pacemaker." I am not sure of who you are refering to---are you refering to Sylvester Stallone the American actor or to Stalin, who was over Russia? Can you elaborate, please? That's also another reason why others have posted to you that you need to be clear and consise in your posts because they are all over the place as well as confusing. Whatever. I am done with this. It is readily apparent that you will persist in spewing your venomous, hateful, and condesending words no matter what anyone replies to you.
Adiana:usflag:
the names r nothing to do with u being american.. they came to mind.. and apart from tony blair.. i cant think of anyone.. cus im not greta with uk actors.. but these labels mean nothing. Its the same with all preconcepts..
you saying i'm angry, means absolutely nothing.. and it certainly doesn't mean i am angry. Thats why i made the examples.. they are totally speculative.. and thats all they will ever be.. they hold no guarantee.. and saying im angry really is nothing more than a mere guess.
In regards to your previous statement, please note that Celebrin stated he was being sarcastic in the last line of the post you quoted.
All,
I think that this thread has become unnecessarily divisive & confrontational. I think we all need to step back & try to listen deeply to each other & not act on the initial feelings that are invoked by one another's statements.
take care
_/\_
metta