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@compassionate_warrior, Actually it's YHWH, 4 letters. It can be expanded to Yahweh, or changed through Latin to IHVH/JHVH and translated as Iehovah/Jehovah...
Well, that's the way the Hebrews wrote it (vowels often were omitted), but it was pronounced Yahweh. Following the ancient Hebrew convention, "Fred" would be "Frd"--3 letters.
Yeah and Jesus was born Yeshua, which translated directly into English would be Joshua but into Greek turned into "Jesus". He wouldn't recognize his own name! haha
I looked up the meaning of Yeshua a few yrs. ago. It's actually derived from Yahweh. It means "he who is like God", i.e. he who is like Yahweh. Something like that.
Well, there are many Christianities. Has anyone ever checked out Christian Science? It's kind of amazing. They have a concept very similar to "the Void" in Buddhism (or is that only Vajrayana?), and other parallels w/Buddhism that I don't recall right now. They're into their own form of meditation to communicate directly with ... the divine energy, god, whatever.
In my teachers message as I understand the void is spacious, but its like a rainbow. Something is there. So you are communing but you aren't doing anything though you have lots of hints and you drift to thoughts and get lost in them.
I'd rather go to hell since it has high majority of the worlds population, it had alot of fun things that Christians deem "sinful" and I wouldn't be surroned by bible pushers.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Can we close this? Are we done here? I think the question was probably answered in about 15 posts, so I figure our work is done here, right?
Cool. Thanks guys.....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
THREAD RE-OPENED.
I simply didn't want it straying into "Christianity is evil because it says we're all going to go to hell..."
it has happened that some threads discussing "other Religions" have strayed into, let's say. 'unskilful speech'... But I don't object to re-opening it. My intention wasn't to censor, it was to prevent a fall-out - which is unfortunately, not uncommon.... It's rare that a thread is ever closed so that it's written in stone, but that was my reasoning. Ultimately, people can be apt to bicker, and say silly things.
If people can hold their rationale and be logical, fire away....:)
Thanks for letting us enjoy, Fed. Not all threads on controversial topics degenerate. I had a thread on abortion once that was quite interesting and civil. This thread has had some fascinating digressions. I like your choice to simply outline your parameters, rather than close the thread.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2011
If a Moderator closes a thread, it's a simple enough task to PM them and seek clarification. No Moderator will close a thread on a mere selfish whim, and no moderator is beyond APProach, nor REproach, when it comes down to it. But PMs work, and we're quite happy to discuss and explain,and if fit, review our decision, if someone contacts us....
see en.wikipidia.org/wiki/Yahweh There are many competing theories about the meaning of Yahweh, including "He, who brings into existence that which exists", but none are conclusive. Not even the original pronunciation is known for sure. I've read the "I am" theory in relation to the name "Jesus", Tai, but that's also a mistaken belief based on his Greek name, I think. The Aramaic name given him at birth was Yeshua. Does anyone know why the Bible says his name was also Emanuel?
Roger, I'm still trying to figure out how Hitler got into heaven. Did he repent before committing suicide? Who let all that riff-raff past the pearly gates, anyway??! Isn't someone supposed to be screening people? :shake: :grumble:
Repent: to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often followed by of ): He repented after his thoughtless act.
Well, considering repenting seems to be to regret a PAST action, I don't know how Hitler could have possibly repented BEFORE killing himself. That would be INTENT, not REPENT, LOL. So I'd have to say, that if there's a heaven according to Christian belief, no Hitler wouldn't be in it based on the fact that he committed suicide and did not repent.
It's a fascinating subject and how it gets explained depending on who's doing the explaining. Some religions have an answer for everything. Kind of like Hollywood screenplay writers. My Born Again relative says h. could very well be in Heaven. Here's how another C. group explains the final hitler question.
Heaven and hell are not a matter of totaling up good deeds and bad deeds and seeing which predominates. From the Christian perspective, if it comes to merit, no one merits heaven, and we've all done enough bad for hell to be justified. However God doesn't want anyone to end up in hell. Anyone who depends upon him for rescue will be saved from hell.
There are several questions that are asked so commonly that I think they're work looking at here. Here are two examples:
Could Hitler end up in heaven if he repented at the last minute? It seems unfair for God to save people just because they are Christians. There are lots of rotten Christians and lots of good non-Christians. I'm going to try to deal with that whole class of questions here. Note that in doing so I'm going to make my own opinions a bit more obvious than I do elsewhere in these essays. I am quite sure that there are answers from Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, but I'm not in a position to argue convincingly from those viewpoints. First, the Bible doesn't give us precise information as to who will end up in heaven or hell. We are warned particularly not to judge other people (except to the extent that we have specific responsibilities for church discipline or as officials involved with the legal system). This means that discussing specific people such as Hitler is dangerous. We don't know what is going on with individuals. Hitler looks particularly evil. But someone completely unremarkable may be just as evil, but may not have had enough political power to have the terrible effect that Hitler did. Perhaps Hitler was completely insane, and not responsible for his actions. (I seriously doubt it, but we don't know for sure what was going on in his heart.)
However more important, I need to warn you that heaven isn't a reward for being good. The basic Protestant model for salvation is as follows:
God chooses us We respond with faith, which basically means that we rely on God for salvation God forgives us, and simultaneously starts renewing us and getting rid of our sin
Eckhart Tolle has an interesting take on Jesus. Basically, he says Jesus' words contain great gems of wisdom. And that its the mystics who got it right. But most of them were quickly killed by the church. Meister Eckhart is one of those mystics. Christianity also has a tradition of monastics which I believe most modern christian are not even aware of.
God chooses us We respond with faith, which basically means that we rely on God for salvation God forgives us, and simultaneously starts renewing us and getting rid of our sin
I'm unfamiliar with these ideas. How/why does God choose us? What does that mean? He forgives us for what? Getting rid of what sin? Who says we're carrying around sin? (sounds an awful lot like negative karma...) Why is there this assumption of sin? :-/
(Thanks, Roger. I was relieved (strangely, since I'm not a Christian) to find out Hitler isn't in heaven. It's just an interesting topic for speculation. )
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2011
Can Hitler go to heaven? Can Angulimala attain nirvana?
Yes, but the story of how Angulimala actually repented and recognised his deeds for what they were, is famous, and plays a big part in his attainment of Nibbana.
we have no such evidence or account of Hitler being in a similar frame of mind.
Besides, as a supposed "Devout Christian", he must also have known that suicide was a no-no.....
God chooses us We respond with faith, which basically means that we rely on God for salvation God forgives us, and simultaneously starts renewing us and getting rid of our sin
I'm unfamiliar with these ideas. How/why does God choose us? What does that mean? He forgives us for what? Getting rid of what sin? Who says we're carrying around sin? (sounds an awful lot like negative karma...) Why is there this assumption of sin?
Hey compassionate_warrior, I did not say that stuff. It was a quote I found in a link which I included in my post. No biggie. Interesting topic though. I'm not too familiar with those concepts either though I was forced to go to Roman Catholic "religious instruction" for a few years after school when a kid. Though I succumbed to being forced to go, I refused to listen and "knew" I was going to hell for it. I wonder... .
What I think about that comment? IMO, it's very creative. It's like people make stuff up. "They" have an explanation for everything about "god." "God" is eminently knowable I guess.
According to many people I've known he's got a great personality, expectations, rules, and lots of infinite time to listen to everybody's prayers, grant wishes, monitor behaviors and judge everybody with all-knowing power. All that stuff. I'm NOT mocking anybody, some of them are friends and relatives, but seriously, I'm just saying what I understand from the people around me telling me about what god's up to and how he is on their side too.
Would be cool to interview an ancient Aztec. Have them tell us what god is up to and what he wants. Good stuff!
BTW, My Born Againers (sorry, I can't pick and choose my extended family) are of the opinion hitler was a challenge for god BUT he probably did atone, received forgiveness and is now in heaven. His death being a suicide? Maybe not! Might have been Eva Braun or someone else who killed him. This is what I'm told; this is the speculation.
Hey compassionate_warrior, I did not say that stuff. It was a quote I found in a link which I included in my post. It's like people make stuff up. "They" have an explanation for everything about "god." "God" is eminently knowable I guess. Would be cool to interview an ancient Aztec. Have them tell us what god is up to and what he wants. Good stuff!
Yeah, I know you didn't say that, but the "quote" function here didn't allow for making that clear.
haha--yeah, I think humankind projects what it wants onto its deities. I've always thought that rather than God creating man in his image, it's the other way around: man imagines God in his image. Maybe that's how he's knowable; he's a figment of humans' imagination. He's in the mind, so these folks just have to examine their own minds...?
RE: Aztecs--god wants blood. Human blood. Come to think of it, didn't the god of the Israelites used to want blood? Didn't there used to be animal sacrifice? :scratch: That sounds vaguely familiar.....
RE: Aztecs--god wants blood. Human blood. Come to think of it, didn't the god of the Israelites used to want blood? Didn't there used to be animal sacrifice? :scratch: That sounds vaguely familiar.....
My theory on that? Remember I'm just a guy on the internet (haha). I've never done it, not even a mousetrap, but killing a living thing has GOT to be a major rush of brain chemicals and a powerful ego boost. They perverted the nervous system's natural instinctual reaction to bloody terrible death of fellow HUMANS into a "religious" high. Nice work, huh?! Like the first airplane hijackers seizing the opportunity: You know _somebody_ had to do it.
Yes, just kidding around about 50%. It's a good question, blood lust and why it's so powerful. Gotta be very basic brain-structure atavism thingy they tapped into.
lol. Yeah, I remember! We're all just disembodied voices on the internet.
The Mayans actually sacrificed their own blood. The men skewered their penises with obsidian fetishes and gave blood, the women pulled strings of thorns through their tongues. And aside from that, they'd sacrifice captives taken in war. (Are we off-topic yet?)
If I am a truly loving person, kind, generous, etc., would the all loving Christian god send me to hell for all of eternity because I do not believe that Jesus was the son of god?? sorry I don't know much about Christianity
I think its fair to say that if one has a good knowledge of karma cause and effect one can see that the effects of actions shall always come into fruition so long as there are certain conditions for them to arise, It is said that the last conceptual mind at the time of death be it positive or negative acts as a trigger for rippening such respective karmic potentials on ones mental continuum. So If one lives a good life doing no harm to others developing positive minds and performing positive actions and keeps this frame of mind to the time of their death then it is certain that such a person shall be reborn in fortunate states.
It is good to know cause and effect it is something to study, Buddha spoke extensively about it in various sutras and so many other masters have also vindicated Buddhas teachings on cause and effect.
People out of ignorance would say that one shall pass into unfortunate states because of not having a beleif in a creator or a personal saviour such as the venerable jesus, but if one is wise one shall be able to see this as the ignorance it is born from the side of grasping at the self...and we all know the self has never lead us to good paths.
blind faith is not for the intelligent, It is indication of not throughly investigating the phenomena properly some people think it is a virtue to follow blindly but anything that builds its foundations upon this and mountains of assumptions is not something I could personally take seriously, It is rather like the parable or the man whom built his house upon sand...only to watch it sink when the going went tough.
If someone tells you your going to hell because you dont beleive in god the best course of action is to generate compassion as developing anger toward someone like this will certainly eb away positive potential in the mind.
good buddhists, good christians, good muslims go up in incarnations, bad buddhists who should know better, bad christians etc go down in incarnation, or maybe just end in nothingness, complete blackness, a kind of death that unfortunately seems to appeal to a lot of people on this forum.
jesus in the gospels makes the clear statement you are judged by your works (not your faith) it was Paul not even a disciple of Jesus, a Hitler of sorts going around massacring christians, who supposedly repented and came up with the crazy notion all you had you had to do is have faith in Jesus as the messiah and you were saved. nothing even remotely coming near this in the words of Jesus.
so in answer to the original question, by christian terms you are judged by your works so good buddhists, good muslims, good hindus have the chance to go somewhere better like heaven, or being a bodhisattva, or going to shambhala, or even the state of nirvana.
now if youre a bad buddhist, and i don't mean one who doesn't meditate enough, then according to the buddha, you might be born again in hell, or as a worm or a dog, or you might just die and that's it.
theres a christian philosopher that made a statement if i live a good christian life and there is no god, i still had a good life, whereas if there is a god i go to heaven.
so to renter the reincarnation fight, if im a good buddhist and the buddha was right i reincarnate in a higher state or realm, if the buddha was wrong i still lived a good life.
IMO you cant be a good buddhist and a bad christian, and you can't be a good christian and a bad buddhist, the longer you hold to the idea that jesus, not christianity, and the buddha are diametrically opposed, is to deny that love and compassion are positive forces for the universe.
that doesn't mean blindly accepting everything the buddha or jesus says, but if you were to ask most buddhist monks what they thought of the actual words of jesus, not the religion of paul etc we call christianity, i believe they would say he was a good perhaps not great spiritual teacher, likewise krishnamurti or ramakrishnan or lao tzu.if your a religion hating atheist or agnostic, then buddhism may not be for you
jesus in the gospels makes the clear statement you are judged by your works (not your faith) it was Paul not even a disciple of Jesus, a Hitler of sorts going around massacring christians, who supposedly repented and came up with the crazy notion all you had you had to do is have faith in Jesus as the messiah and you were saved. nothing even remotely coming near this in the words of Jesus.
Comments
I think the question was probably answered in about 15 posts, so I figure our work is done here, right?
Cool.
Thanks guys.....
I simply didn't want it straying into "Christianity is evil because it says we're all going to go to hell..."
it has happened that some threads discussing "other Religions" have strayed into, let's say. 'unskilful speech'...
But I don't object to re-opening it. My intention wasn't to censor, it was to prevent a fall-out - which is unfortunately, not uncommon....
It's rare that a thread is ever closed so that it's written in stone, but that was my reasoning.
Ultimately, people can be apt to bicker, and say silly things.
If people can hold their rationale and be logical, fire away....:)
No Moderator will close a thread on a mere selfish whim, and no moderator is beyond APProach, nor REproach, when it comes down to it.
But PMs work, and we're quite happy to discuss and explain,and if fit, review our decision, if someone contacts us....
Well, considering repenting seems to be to regret a PAST action, I don't know how Hitler could have possibly repented BEFORE killing himself. That would be INTENT, not REPENT, LOL. So I'd have to say, that if there's a heaven according to Christian belief, no Hitler wouldn't be in it based on the fact that he committed suicide and did not repent.
It's a fascinating subject and how it gets explained depending on who's doing the explaining. Some religions have an answer for everything. Kind of like Hollywood screenplay writers. My Born Again relative says h. could very well be in Heaven. Here's how another C. group explains the final hitler question.
LINK and excerpt below:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/heavenhell.html
Could Hitler end up in Heaven?
Heaven and hell are not a matter of totaling up good deeds and bad deeds and seeing which predominates. From the Christian perspective, if it comes to merit, no one merits heaven, and we've all done enough bad for hell to be justified. However God doesn't want anyone to end up in hell. Anyone who depends upon him for rescue will be saved from hell.
There are several questions that are asked so commonly that I think they're work looking at here. Here are two examples:
Could Hitler end up in heaven if he repented at the last minute?
It seems unfair for God to save people just because they are Christians. There are lots of rotten Christians and lots of good non-Christians.
I'm going to try to deal with that whole class of questions here. Note that in doing so I'm going to make my own opinions a bit more obvious than I do elsewhere in these essays. I am quite sure that there are answers from Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, but I'm not in a position to argue convincingly from those viewpoints.
First, the Bible doesn't give us precise information as to who will end up in heaven or hell. We are warned particularly not to judge other people (except to the extent that we have specific responsibilities for church discipline or as officials involved with the legal system). This means that discussing specific people such as Hitler is dangerous. We don't know what is going on with individuals. Hitler looks particularly evil. But someone completely unremarkable may be just as evil, but may not have had enough political power to have the terrible effect that Hitler did. Perhaps Hitler was completely insane, and not responsible for his actions. (I seriously doubt it, but we don't know for sure what was going on in his heart.)
However more important, I need to warn you that heaven isn't a reward for being good. The basic Protestant model for salvation is as follows:
God chooses us
We respond with faith, which basically means that we rely on God for salvation
God forgives us, and simultaneously starts renewing us and getting rid of our sin
Basically, he says Jesus' words contain great gems of wisdom. And that its the mystics who got it right. But most of them were quickly killed by the church.
Meister Eckhart is one of those mystics.
Christianity also has a tradition of monastics which I believe most modern christian are not even aware of.
He forgives us for what? Getting rid of what sin? Who says we're carrying around sin? (sounds an awful lot like negative karma...) Why is there this assumption of sin? :-/
(Thanks, Roger. I was relieved (strangely, since I'm not a Christian) to find out Hitler isn't in heaven. It's just an interesting topic for speculation. )
we have no such evidence or account of Hitler being in a similar frame of mind.
Besides, as a supposed "Devout Christian", he must also have known that suicide was a no-no.....
What I think about that comment? IMO, it's very creative. It's like people make stuff up. "They" have an explanation for everything about "god." "God" is eminently knowable I guess.
According to many people I've known he's got a great personality, expectations, rules, and lots of infinite time to listen to everybody's prayers, grant wishes, monitor behaviors and judge everybody with all-knowing power. All that stuff. I'm NOT mocking anybody, some of them are friends and relatives, but seriously, I'm just saying what I understand from the people around me telling me about what god's up to and how he is on their side too.
Would be cool to interview an ancient Aztec. Have them tell us what god is up to and what he wants. Good stuff!
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
HAHA (kidding) Sorry if it's too childish. :-/
BTW, My Born Againers (sorry, I can't pick and choose my extended family) are of the opinion hitler was a challenge for god BUT he probably did atone, received forgiveness and is now in heaven. His death being a suicide? Maybe not! Might have been Eva Braun or someone else who killed him. This is what I'm told; this is the speculation.
haha--yeah, I think humankind projects what it wants onto its deities. I've always thought that rather than God creating man in his image, it's the other way around: man imagines God in his image. Maybe that's how he's knowable; he's a figment of humans' imagination. He's in the mind, so these folks just have to examine their own minds...?
RE: Aztecs--god wants blood. Human blood.
Come to think of it, didn't the god of the Israelites used to want blood? Didn't there used to be animal sacrifice? :scratch: That sounds vaguely familiar.....
Yes, just kidding around about 50%. It's a good question, blood lust and why it's so powerful. Gotta be very basic brain-structure atavism thingy they tapped into.
The Mayans actually sacrificed their own blood. The men skewered their penises with obsidian fetishes and gave blood, the women pulled strings of thorns through their tongues. And aside from that, they'd sacrifice captives taken in war. (Are we off-topic yet?)
So If one lives a good life doing no harm to others developing positive minds and performing positive actions and keeps this frame of mind to the time of their death then it is certain that such a person shall be reborn in fortunate states.
It is good to know cause and effect it is something to study, Buddha spoke extensively about it in various sutras and so many other masters have also vindicated Buddhas teachings on cause and effect.
People out of ignorance would say that one shall pass into unfortunate states because of not having a beleif in a creator or a personal saviour such as the venerable jesus, but if one is wise one shall be able to see this as the ignorance it is born from the side of grasping at the self...and we all know the self has never lead us to good paths.
blind faith is not for the intelligent, It is indication of not throughly investigating the phenomena properly some people think it is a virtue to follow blindly but anything that builds its foundations upon this and mountains of assumptions is not something I could personally take seriously, It is rather like the parable or the man whom built his house upon sand...only to watch it sink when the going went tough.
If someone tells you your going to hell because you dont beleive in god the best course of action is to generate compassion as developing anger toward someone like this will certainly eb away positive potential in the mind.
jesus in the gospels makes the clear statement you are judged by your works (not your faith) it was Paul not even a disciple of Jesus, a Hitler of sorts going around massacring christians, who supposedly repented and came up with the crazy notion all you had you had to do is have faith in Jesus as the messiah and you were saved. nothing even remotely coming near this in the words of Jesus.
so in answer to the original question, by christian terms you are judged by your works so good buddhists, good muslims, good hindus have the chance to go somewhere better like heaven, or being a bodhisattva, or going to shambhala, or even the state of nirvana.
now if youre a bad buddhist, and i don't mean one who doesn't meditate enough, then according to the buddha, you might be born again in hell, or as a worm or a dog, or you might just die and that's it.
theres a christian philosopher that made a statement if i live a good christian life and there is no god, i still had a good life, whereas if there is a god i go to heaven.
so to renter the reincarnation fight, if im a good buddhist and the buddha was right i reincarnate in a higher state or realm, if the buddha was wrong i still lived a good life.
IMO you cant be a good buddhist and a bad christian, and you can't be a good christian and a bad buddhist, the longer you hold to the idea that jesus, not christianity, and the buddha are diametrically opposed, is to deny that love and compassion are positive forces for the universe.
that doesn't mean blindly accepting everything the buddha or jesus says, but if you were to ask most buddhist monks what they thought of the actual words of jesus, not the religion of paul etc we call christianity, i believe they would say he was a good perhaps not great spiritual teacher, likewise krishnamurti or ramakrishnan or lao tzu.if your a religion hating atheist or agnostic, then buddhism may not be for you