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No one has complete enlightenment, so they say in zen meditating, thought and memory is the enlightenment itself. I agree with this statement because what if you died and had to learn everything again or maybe you get a new life with its restrictions or rules.
seeker almost all of what you say is true, im just trying to say there's much more to buddhism than just the four noble truths and the teaching on suffering. while meditating on suffering is the way millions of buddhist come into believing, many people are simply brought to buddhism as i was by simple biographies of the buddha's life and the beauty of the story, many christians are drawn to buddhism for the similarities between jesus and buddha and the emphasis on love and compassion, many atheists and agnostics are drawn to buddhism because they perceive what he is saying is that there is no god, to which i disagree, just not the one in the bible.
IMHO opinion the buddha never concerned himself with eliminating his own suffering, doing so was just a side effect of the process of becoming a being of love and compassion.
Story, (historical semi fiction)I gues in writing this Ive actually refuted my original arguement, sorry for the journey in the wrong direction folks
preface; before enlightenment the buddha lived for several years in the jungle with tigers and was practically starving eating nuts berries and fruit, i guess. he was not interested in getting rid of his own suffering but reaching enlightenment or a state or true being.
Torturously sitting 24/7 under a tree for three months meditating 23/7 so to speak, the soon to be buddha experienced a brilliant thought, if we fed everyone, nobody would starve, if we healed everyone no one would be sick, if we clothed everyone no one would be naked(except by choice), if we housed everyone no one would be homeless, if we educated everyone no one would be as ignorant as without an education, if we could end war, no one would die or suffer the ravages of war, if we had a fair political system, the rich brahma would be equal to the poor low caste people,if we could eliminate or tame delusion, people would suffer less,
then after meditating on this for a month or two(historical fiction here) the buddha thought how can i explain to people something so complicated and how could it possibly be accomplished. these are all true worthy things but what do they have in common, then voila, that mighty aha moment when the buddha realized all bad things are a form of, or cause of, suffering, suffering is the one thing they can all have in common, another week or two and he'd got it down,1. suffering is a bad thing and needs to be gotten rid of,2. all suffering is caused by something, 3 If we can get rid of the things that cause (an individual thing) to causes suffering, then 4 obviously with the causes gone the (that oparticular form of)suffering has been eliminated.
in a start the buddha rose up, he didn't jump as his legs were cramped, his worshipers who considered him a god for his stillness, he was the ultimate meditator like a statue, they were alarmed and thought something had gone wrong with the buddha, and he seemed ravenously hungry, and enjoyed expensive gourmet dinners people offered him, he didn't speak, just put his finger to his lips and said sheh, one by one seeing his very lazy habits of not meditation hours on end, he'd walk in circles and around the parks smiling and bowing at people,
his worshipers had lost interest in him as he no longer was the somber meditator; he seemed elated, five or six devout followers stuck with him sometimes following him around the town, then one day as they sit cross legged under a tree, the buddha spoke slowly, "hey guys your not going to believe this!!! i think i've got it figured out, the answer to everything and all our problems, no joke. listen to this and tell me if it makes sense;
and then preached to them the four noble truths, i'll stop this semi fiction account right here as the rest of the story was recorded 2500 years ago in a place known as bhodigaya, india, its the buddha's first sermon in the deer park, where he teaches his formula for success, the four noble truths; its in the buddha's DHammapada scripture, maybe a gracious reader could reccomend the good translations, sincerely Lyndon John Taylor Mar.2011
No one has complete enlightenment, so they say in zen meditating, thought and memory is the enlightenment itself. I agree with this statement because what if you died and had to learn everything again or maybe you get a new life with its restrictions or rules.
There ought to be many enlightenment on realization, but actualization is another aspect and more important as it departs life & death of samsaric cycle. Next life may not necessary harmony, firstly, how many meat of others have you consumed, would they let you go easily
Enlightenment is awakening from the dream of life. If so, living precludes enlightenment - which sounds peculiarly like death? Does that suggest egoic death? Physical death? Both? Either? Maybe, as we dream in life of situations mundane as well as fantastical - enlightenment touches us in dream like moments - and like our dreams we struggle to remember, describe and recreate the experience - an end up - yes, you guessed it - suffering. Suffering over "having" enlightenment or "being" or "becoming" enlightened versus the very, very unsatisfactory possibility of "not achieving" enlightenment. These concepts are huge obstacles. They attempt to define an unquantifiable such-ness - one that is nothing and something at the same time (not two - not one). One that goads consciousness to "understand" with references and proof and citations and quotes - to arrive at a correct enlightenment equation. Skillful selfishness is giving oneself the gift of practice not focusing unwaveringly on enlightenment and its attendant rewards, benefits and advantages. Masters don't laugh at students who strain for enlightenment out of cruelty - but out of compassion and recognition of one on the path stumbling, cursing, slipping, crying, trying, practicing, suffering......preparing.....to awaken. All will awaken from the dream of life. Not all will be prepared.
brilliant, very well written, true, your a better writer than eye! ironman,
(prose) I was brought up to pray as a child, Dear God, help me to be just like jesus. now i'm sleeping in my temporary grave, cruxcified by mania, closer to SHE-GOD(TAO)
taking a vow of silence, for at least three days, hopeing, beleiving, that i'll wake up to a better life.
free from excessive suffering, much less arogant, able to make short conciseful, not so mania influenced contributions.
federica, I thank you the most, i'm sorry. i humbly give my life to this forum and its leaders, as they are the 'sangha' that the saved me. if you ever get sick of me i'll shut up,
in the mean time pray for me, i'm dreaming im in hell for three days, and beleive it or not what's hell for me???? shutting up my big fat mouth!!!!!!!!
for i am an "ordained minister".(bhikku) in the loma linda, california traditional Therevada Cambodian temple, preaching dharma, right here right now(TM)
if you ever been to church, you appreciate just how boring. long sermons can be,and how... ministers sometimes just never shut up!!!
you talk too much, you never shut up, you talk too much remember that song, i used to be deluded, and think it was written about me
there's much more to Buddhism than just the four noble truths and the teaching on suffering.
IMHO opinion the Buddha never concerned himself with eliminating his own suffering, doing so was just a side effect of the process of becoming a being of love and compassion.
Personally, I think love and compassion are already incorporated in the 4NTs. What exactly is compassion? The dictionary says this:
Compassion (from Latin: "co-suffering") is a virtue —one in which the emotional capacities of empathy and sympathy (for the suffering of others) are regarded as a part of love itself.
Even the English word itself comes from latin derivatives that are in reference to suffering.
I think that is pretty accurate. Compassion arises from seeing suffering. So in other words, suffering is what causes compassion to even exist to begin with. If there was no suffering, there would be no need for compassion. If no one was suffering, then there would be no one to feel compassion for. The Buddha had great love and compassion, precisely because he became aware of the suffering going on. Compassion is a byproduct of suffering and it is necessary for suffering to take place in order for compassion to exist. IMO, the Buddha set out to find an answer to the problem of suffering. Not necessarily just his or just others, but all suffering in general. I don't think it's possible to separate suffering and compassion into two separate things. Anyway, thats what I think.
there's much more to Buddhism than just the four noble truths and the teaching on suffering.
IMHO opinion the Buddha never concerned himself with eliminating his own suffering, doing so was just a side effect of the process of becoming a being of love and compassion.
Personally, I think love and compassion are already incorporated in the 4NTs. What exactly is compassion? The dictionary says this:
Compassion (from Latin: "co-suffering") is a virtue —one in which the emotional capacities of empathy and sympathy (for the suffering of others) are regarded as a part of love itself.
Even the English word itself comes from latin derivatives that are in reference to suffering.
I think that is pretty accurate. Compassion arises from seeing suffering. So in other words, suffering is what causes compassion to even exist to begin with. If there was no suffering, there would be no need for compassion. If no one was suffering, then there would be no one to feel compassion for. The Buddha had great love and compassion, precisely because he became aware of the suffering going on. Compassion is a byproduct of suffering and it is necessary for suffering to take place in order for compassion to exist. IMO, the Buddha set out to find an answer to the problem of suffering. Not necessarily just his or just others, but all suffering in general. Why? Because he saw this suffering and had great compassion for it. I don't think it's possible to separate suffering and compassion into two separate things. Anyway, thats what I think.
It's not just compassion though, it's bodhicitta, the union of compassion and wisdom. Both are required to attain enlightenment. In fact, bodhicitta is synonymous with enlightenment.
As for enlightenment not being for everybody, that is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on any Buddhist board. Of course it is. We're all sentient beings, we all have exactly the same buddhanature, and we all suffer, even the lowliest cockroach. We all yearn for the end of suffering.
I think you would do well to get yourself a teacher, John, and get out of your head.
with all due respect, sir, i could use some good teachers, i'm operating on my own, so to speak, i already have several teachers at the temple, palzang, but finding a time when they're not busy and i'm up to driving, is rare,
i meant enlightenment is not (supposed) to be for people with bad, hurtful, intentions, like sleeping with consorts, or lazy, unwilling people who are perfectly content and probably just as happy not being enlightened( i mean this lifetime)
I was speaking in the here and now, not eons in the future when enlightenment may be for everyone, or at least everyone wants to be enlightened MOST PEOPLE DON"T WANT TO BE ENLIGHTENED today, simple fact, trying to force them to believe enlightenment is the answer may never work or be pointless. at least we might teach them to respect enlightenment like half the people in asia do, etc etc.
seeker, i think you need to more carefully read what you say, over and over, before you post, you don't make sense, compassion is not the same as or a form of suffering, your statement is false, compassion does not equal suffering, just the opposite, lack of compassion is a form of suffering (and injustice)
seeker, i think you need to more carefully read what you say, over and over, before you post, you don't make sense, compassion is not the same as or a form of suffering, your statement is false, compassion does not equal suffering, just the opposite, lack of compassion is a form of suffering (and injustice)
Thats not what he meant.
Just that you have compassion for someone who suffer. You cannot have any compassion if no one suffer.
Wisdom and compassion go hand in hand. The greater clarity into the nature of mind and form, the deeper the insight, the less of a barrier between "me" and "you", the more integrated each mind becomes into the whole as opposed to a delusional separation. All sentient beings share the same nature of wanting to be happy, and suffering due to ignorance. We are all brothers and sisters, all minds.
Even if not everyone wants to be "enlightened", no one wants to suffer. That's where compassion comes in. Don't leave home without it!
I agree that Enlightenment can be a Dis..illusion..ment!! Especially when one receives the light and is awakened..sees people around him or her..family and friends suffering..not being able to do anything for them.... it is not for everyone but why does it happen to some people when they are not seeking it! it is a mystery indeed..
Comments
IMHO opinion the buddha never concerned himself with eliminating his own suffering, doing so was just a side effect of the process of becoming a being of love and compassion.
Story, (historical semi fiction)I gues in writing this Ive actually refuted my original arguement, sorry for the journey in the wrong direction folks
preface; before enlightenment the buddha lived for several years in the jungle with tigers and was practically starving eating nuts berries and fruit, i guess. he was not interested in getting rid of his own suffering but reaching enlightenment or a state or true being.
Torturously sitting 24/7 under a tree for three months meditating 23/7 so to speak, the soon to be buddha experienced a brilliant thought, if we fed everyone, nobody would starve, if we healed everyone no one would be sick, if we clothed everyone no one would be naked(except by choice), if we housed everyone no one would be homeless, if we educated everyone no one would be as ignorant as without an education, if we could end war, no one would die or suffer the ravages of war, if we had a fair political system, the rich brahma would be equal to the poor low caste people,if we could eliminate or tame delusion, people would suffer less,
then after meditating on this for a month or two(historical fiction here) the buddha thought how can i explain to people something so complicated and how could it possibly be accomplished. these are all true worthy things but what do they have in common, then voila, that mighty aha moment when the buddha realized all bad things are a form of, or cause of, suffering, suffering is the one thing they can all have in common, another week or two and he'd got it down,1. suffering is a bad thing and needs to be gotten rid of,2. all suffering is caused by something, 3 If we can get rid of the things that cause (an individual thing) to causes suffering, then 4 obviously with the causes gone the (that oparticular form of)suffering has been eliminated.
in a start the buddha rose up, he didn't jump as his legs were cramped, his worshipers who considered him a god for his stillness, he was the ultimate meditator like a statue, they were alarmed and thought something had gone wrong with the buddha, and he seemed ravenously hungry, and enjoyed expensive gourmet dinners people offered him, he didn't speak, just put his finger to his lips and said sheh, one by one seeing his very lazy habits of not meditation hours on end, he'd walk in circles and around the parks smiling and bowing at people,
his worshipers had lost interest in him as he no longer was the somber meditator; he seemed elated, five or six devout followers stuck with him sometimes following him around the town, then one day as they sit cross legged under a tree, the buddha spoke slowly, "hey guys your not going to believe this!!! i think i've got it figured out, the answer to everything and all our problems, no joke. listen to this and tell me if it makes sense;
and then preached to them the four noble truths, i'll stop this semi fiction account right here as the rest of the story was recorded 2500 years ago in a place known as bhodigaya, india, its the buddha's first sermon in the deer park, where he teaches his formula for success, the four noble truths; its in the buddha's DHammapada scripture, maybe a gracious reader could reccomend the good translations, sincerely Lyndon John Taylor Mar.2011
(prose)
I was brought up to pray as a child,
Dear God, help me to be just like jesus.
now i'm sleeping in my temporary grave,
cruxcified by mania, closer to SHE-GOD(TAO)
taking a vow of silence,
for at least three days,
hopeing, beleiving,
that i'll wake up to a better life.
free from excessive suffering,
much less arogant,
able to make short conciseful,
not so mania influenced contributions.
federica, I thank you the most, i'm sorry.
i humbly give my life to this forum and its leaders,
as they are the 'sangha' that the saved me.
if you ever get sick of me i'll shut up,
in the mean time pray for me,
i'm dreaming im in hell for three days,
and beleive it or not what's hell for me????
shutting up my big fat mouth!!!!!!!!
for i am an "ordained minister".(bhikku)
in the loma linda, california
traditional Therevada Cambodian temple,
preaching dharma, right here right now(TM)
if you ever been to church,
you appreciate just how boring.
long sermons can be,and how...
ministers sometimes just never shut up!!!
you talk too much, you never shut up, you talk too much
remember that song, i used to be deluded, and think it was written about me
numbed artisan blowing glass
catching the eyes gaze
Compassion (from Latin: "co-suffering") is a virtue —one in which the emotional capacities of empathy and sympathy (for the suffering of others) are regarded as a part of love itself.
Even the English word itself comes from latin derivatives that are in reference to suffering.
I think that is pretty accurate. Compassion arises from seeing suffering. So in other words, suffering is what causes compassion to even exist to begin with. If there was no suffering, there would be no need for compassion. If no one was suffering, then there would be no one to feel compassion for. The Buddha had great love and compassion, precisely because he became aware of the suffering going on. Compassion is a byproduct of suffering and it is necessary for suffering to take place in order for compassion to exist. IMO, the Buddha set out to find an answer to the problem of suffering. Not necessarily just his or just others, but all suffering in general. I don't think it's possible to separate suffering and compassion into two separate things. Anyway, thats what I think.
Compassion (from Latin: "co-suffering") is a virtue —one in which the emotional capacities of empathy and sympathy (for the suffering of others) are regarded as a part of love itself.
Even the English word itself comes from latin derivatives that are in reference to suffering.
I think that is pretty accurate. Compassion arises from seeing suffering. So in other words, suffering is what causes compassion to even exist to begin with. If there was no suffering, there would be no need for compassion. If no one was suffering, then there would be no one to feel compassion for. The Buddha had great love and compassion, precisely because he became aware of the suffering going on. Compassion is a byproduct of suffering and it is necessary for suffering to take place in order for compassion to exist. IMO, the Buddha set out to find an answer to the problem of suffering. Not necessarily just his or just others, but all suffering in general. Why? Because he saw this suffering and had great compassion for it. I don't think it's possible to separate suffering and compassion into two separate things. Anyway, thats what I think.
As for enlightenment not being for everybody, that is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on any Buddhist board. Of course it is. We're all sentient beings, we all have exactly the same buddhanature, and we all suffer, even the lowliest cockroach. We all yearn for the end of suffering.
I think you would do well to get yourself a teacher, John, and get out of your head.
Palzang
i could use some good teachers, i'm operating on my own, so to speak, i already have several teachers at the temple, palzang, but finding a time when they're not busy and i'm up to driving, is rare,
i meant enlightenment is not (supposed) to be for people with bad, hurtful, intentions, like sleeping with consorts, or lazy, unwilling people who are perfectly content and probably just as happy not being enlightened( i mean this lifetime)
I was speaking in the here and now, not eons in the future when enlightenment may be for everyone, or at least everyone wants to be enlightened MOST PEOPLE DON"T WANT TO BE ENLIGHTENED today, simple fact, trying to force them to believe enlightenment is the answer may never work or be pointless. at least we might teach them to respect enlightenment like half the people in asia do, etc etc.
seeker, i think you need to more carefully read what you say, over and over, before you post, you don't make sense, compassion is not the same as or a form of suffering, your statement is false, compassion does not equal suffering, just the opposite, lack of compassion is a form of suffering (and injustice)
Just that you have compassion for someone who suffer.
You cannot have any compassion if no one suffer.
Even if not everyone wants to be "enlightened", no one wants to suffer. That's where compassion comes in. Don't leave home without it!
it is not for everyone but why does it happen to some people when they are not seeking it!
it is a mystery indeed..