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Enlightenment is not for everyone
(i started this long post in another thread but I was way off topic so I started my own thread:)
i don't think very many people are enlightened, fiveO, and i believe actual enlightenment for any being without 100% pure intentions, would be a big dissapointment, imagine seeing the true nature of things that you are going to be reborn in hell, or the lower realms, imagine seeing the true nature of your possessions are worthless when your still addicted to possessions, imagine having escaped suffering, you can only sit and watch your best friends and family suffering because you have done nothing to alleviate their suffering, just your own.
enlightenment is a real two edge sword, it refines and polishes the truly good hearted, and cuts deep into the flesh of the insincere, so enlightenment can be a blessing or a curse, wanting to be enlightened without any understanding of what enlightenment is is kind of like desiring to carry around a fully loaded 44 with you every were you go, it may save your life, or get you killed.
far easier be it to have modest goals of helping people, and stick to helping lots of people in the foothills before you think about reaching the summit of the high mountain, a lot of people have the idea, my life sucks, if only i were enlightened everything would be perfect, well my guess is there are some monks stuck in monasteries, enlightened, whose life still sucks, no one said an enlightened person can't be unhappy, or upset, or even angry, when you start to see the true nature of things, the way they really are your going to be mad (at the injustice of it), some things, like the quake in japan, really suck, big time.
when i first came to this forum, i made a big mistake, instead of first reading everyday posts, and getting to know the contributors one by one, i just started posting about wrong views i saw in posters i strongly disagreed with, i was rude, obnoxious, bordering on angry, if not for federica's constant vigil and helpful comments i would have been banned outright, and that would have been really bad as i probably never would have come back to read all the interesting and sometimes insightful insights offered on this forum.
i'm slowly growing, with your help, into the kind of buddhist i've always wanted to be but never quite been, i'd studied meditation and enlightenment, quick path with a IMO enlightened master from Burma, Piyapong Yosaef, i'd felt that i was glimpsing or feeling a form of enlightenment, but couldn't sustain it, had another nervous breakdown, and relapsed into smoking pot. But i remember one thing, i came close enough to "enlightenment" that i saw for myself that it is 100% real and not a fantasy.
I'm nowhere near as clear thinking right now as I was then, but at least I know if I put myself back in kindergarten and relearn the basics some day, this life or the future, I may well see what the buddha saw, a huge f'd up world that needs a lot of love!!! sincerely former monk for only three weeks. john
i don't think very many people are enlightened, fiveO, and i believe actual enlightenment for any being without 100% pure intentions, would be a big dissapointment, imagine seeing the true nature of things that you are going to be reborn in hell, or the lower realms, imagine seeing the true nature of your possessions are worthless when your still addicted to possessions, imagine having escaped suffering, you can only sit and watch your best friends and family suffering because you have done nothing to alleviate their suffering, just your own.
enlightenment is a real two edge sword, it refines and polishes the truly good hearted, and cuts deep into the flesh of the insincere, so enlightenment can be a blessing or a curse, wanting to be enlightened without any understanding of what enlightenment is is kind of like desiring to carry around a fully loaded 44 with you every were you go, it may save your life, or get you killed.
far easier be it to have modest goals of helping people, and stick to helping lots of people in the foothills before you think about reaching the summit of the high mountain, a lot of people have the idea, my life sucks, if only i were enlightened everything would be perfect, well my guess is there are some monks stuck in monasteries, enlightened, whose life still sucks, no one said an enlightened person can't be unhappy, or upset, or even angry, when you start to see the true nature of things, the way they really are your going to be mad (at the injustice of it), some things, like the quake in japan, really suck, big time.
when i first came to this forum, i made a big mistake, instead of first reading everyday posts, and getting to know the contributors one by one, i just started posting about wrong views i saw in posters i strongly disagreed with, i was rude, obnoxious, bordering on angry, if not for federica's constant vigil and helpful comments i would have been banned outright, and that would have been really bad as i probably never would have come back to read all the interesting and sometimes insightful insights offered on this forum.
i'm slowly growing, with your help, into the kind of buddhist i've always wanted to be but never quite been, i'd studied meditation and enlightenment, quick path with a IMO enlightened master from Burma, Piyapong Yosaef, i'd felt that i was glimpsing or feeling a form of enlightenment, but couldn't sustain it, had another nervous breakdown, and relapsed into smoking pot. But i remember one thing, i came close enough to "enlightenment" that i saw for myself that it is 100% real and not a fantasy.
I'm nowhere near as clear thinking right now as I was then, but at least I know if I put myself back in kindergarten and relearn the basics some day, this life or the future, I may well see what the buddha saw, a huge f'd up world that needs a lot of love!!! sincerely former monk for only three weeks. john
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Comments
This is what enlightenment (or meditation practice) bring to your life.
The ability to remain peaceful no matter what your life situation is. Which means, if this monks life sucks, if he managed to progress on the path, only his situation sucks (in your eyes) but he can remain perfectly peaceful and happy.
pain, diseases, natural disasters, hunger etc... are all life situation that do not necessarily dictate your state of mind.
There are 4 types of enlightenment, 2 of truth and 2 of non truth(Maya)
The first is the awareness of (a) great (amount of) truth, coupled with the wisdom of putting this truth into action
THIS IS CALLED THE TRUE ENLIGHTENMENT
A teacher of this type is more precious than any Jewel
The second is the awareness of (a great amount of) false truth(Maya), coupled with the (false) perception that it is truth
THIS IS CALLED THE FALSE ENLIGHTENMENT
Never trust these teachers
The 3rd is the awareness of (a) great (amount of) truth, coupled with the complete ignorance (Evil) of using the truth (selfishly) for one's own benefit, the benefit of one's ignorant friends, and the detriment of the true practitioners.
THIS IS CALLED THE EVIL ENLIGHTENMENT(Xian terms) or THE ENLIGHTENMENT OF COMPLETE IGNORANCE (Buddhist terms)
Beware, above all, of this type of guru (teacher)
The 4th type of enlightenment is an analytical enlightenment. It is the awareness that truth is recorded in the scriptures, coupled with the endeavor to study, memorize, and practice the scriptures to the fullest extent humanely possible
THIS IS CALLED THE ENLIGHTENMENT OF SCRIPTURAL LEARNING
Faithful and trust worthy teachers of the scriptures are these
I sure hope enlightenment ___is___ for everyone. Why? Because I want to get out of here! This suffering thing suuucks! Don't get me wrong: I have a "great" life, got most of the "necessary" stuff, not-too-bad PITAs etc.
Nevertheless, when I really get down to it I know, uncertainty, suffering, privations could start for me and my family (and you guys) tomorrow! Soooo: get me enlightened and get me outta here and into Nirvana!
It fit perfectly your description and is often incorrectly interpretated as enlightenment, or an enlighten period...
It also fit very well your experience following this experience (stop practicing, depressed a bit type of things)
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html#Arising
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB 4. The Arising and Passing Away?p_r_p_185834411_title=MCTB 4. The Arising and Passing Away
I do not think that anyone who attains enlightenment would be disappointed, however. In being enlightened, they would be beyond disappointment, they would not be bound by their possessions, would not be reborn in a hell realm, and would start helping to alleviate the suffering of their families in whatever way they can. Otherwise, they would not be enlightened. I think that enlightenment can only appear to be a curse to those who have not yet attained enlightenment.
it is very simple
Having overcome all defilement that leads to unsatisfactory mental states.
So no more feeling bored, disgusted, angry, anxious etc...
Try to think about how feel like when you don't feel any of theses things?
pattb your concept of enlightenment as equaling meditative practice is way off base, I think youre thinking of Samadhi, or the Jhanas, they are a meditative practice or states of mind, enlightenment is a 24/7 life practice, not a form of meditation, you never experience enlightenment like a feeling, its a way of living, you become enlightened by putting meditative insights into action, 24/7. And yes as quoted often on this forum, enlightened monks experience pain, pleasure, happiness and sadness, but maybe don't dwell on them as much as we do.
roger, while i respect your sentiment beaucoup, and if we are to believe the lotus sutra, the final, eons in the future goal of the buddha is enlightenment for all beings, I don't think it is enlightenment you should be so hell bent on achieving but mindfulness; clear, unfetered, honest thinking that would solve your problems, it sure should help with the suffering,
then you can decide if you want to go further towards enlightenment, or relax and enjoy living a good life in the here and now, with the promise of the buddha for a better life ahead, even in future lives, a lot of people want to be brain surgeons or noble prize winners too, but that doesn't mean its going to happen without a huge amount of effort, Enlightenment is not so much a state of mind as a way of living, so is being mindful, devout, or just plain down to earth good hearted, I don't want to put words in the buddha's mouth, but i would believe he would say they are all good paths and not one is better than the other,
enlightenment is just a super aware state of reality, coupled with right action, and reality is not all fun and games, obviously IMO the buddha put even himself through suffering, and hard difficult situations for the benefit of his followers and all beings, why would he care about his own suffering when he already had everything, but he didn't stop there; he offered this everything to us
to sell all your possessions, fly to japan, and volunteer for the relief effort, and donate your money to the homeless; that might be enlightenment, but sitting at home and pondering,i'm so unhappy, i want so much to be enlightened, that's just desire, a hinderance. if you were genuinely trying to help all the people around you be better, happier people, then i don't think you would be suffering as much, being loving, kind and compassionate is way more important than your enlightenment, or position on the path. metta
disclaimer, realize i am talking about enlightenment, something i don't fully understand, and these are opinions? not fact, will the real enlightened member of this forum please stand up and correct me if I am wrong, no kidding, who is it there's got to be at least one enlightened member of this forum.
To know that you do not know is the best. To pretend to know when you do not know is a disease
Lao Tzu
Enlightenment is the result of the insights onto the nature of reality.
Insights that are most often realized in a meditation practice. Of course, once again how did you confused my definition of enlightenment with Jhanas from my post?
I'm very curious as either i really did not express myself properly or something else is going but i'd really like to know what happened here
enlightenment is only very well defined in books you have read, get real, i never said i was enlightened in the past or now, just that i got to a point through mindfulness where i perceived what it was or might be and that it was real, and could really happen, like i was a climber at the boot camp for mount everest that had seen the summit (enlightenment) through the clouds on a sunny day,
the buddha taught the way to the true enlightenment, but maya creeps in and offers fake, counterfeit enlightenments that create more suffering but still base themselves on the buddhist meditation, kind of like the hypocrites infiltrating the catholic church priesthood and such, selfish, basically bad hearted monks and lamas sleeping with "consorts" and rewarding bad behaviour etc etc etc The buddhist clergy is not all made up of saints and angels, there are wolfs and butchers too, and if you don't really understand anything, its easy to be fooled,
Tibetan buddhism teaches that choosing a guru and worshiping that gurus teaching is a critical step, not only do you have to find someone who's true, but not every guru who's completely true is going to be to your taste and sentiments, here on new buddhist we have no gurus speaking, except by video, only written words of such, how about we all at new buddhist all get together and petition some real monks, immersed in scripture, to participate here, good idea???
You are born in a deserted island. You look around and conclude that the earth is flat. So you base your life and your beliefs with this assumption.
(well i guess it must end somewhere, so if i build a boat and sail away, i'll probably get carried away over the edge a fall.)
But one day someone come along and tell you that the earth is a sphere. So you think:" no way it's a sphere, look around, it's flat."
So that guy give you the instructions to build your own rocket ship. (how to meditate).
So you build your rocket ship and go to space to see for yourself weather the earth is spherical or flat.
Once you went in space and seen for yourself that the earth is spherical, you've had the insight into the nature of the earth.
And you cannot ever go back to believe that the earth is flat.
It's really that simple.
pattb i think your almost right there is a difference between being enlightened which is a result of practice, and enlightenment which is the state of living and right action that flow from the being of a person who has become enlightened, being enlightened is a long process, enlightenment is the state of being the individual lives in after being enlightened (the process)
pattb your building a rocketship while while i'm trying to climb a very high mountain, no problem.....
How could a person who is insincere become enlightened?
I really like the line of perception you're travelling with these ideas. In your Everest analogy, often we get to the top of a foothill and consider our labored breath and aching muscles and stop to gasp in astonishment at the view. We think, "Wow, this is it, I am at the top."
Consider that this view is not what is traditionally defined as enlightened in the context of a Buddhist forum/dharmic expression. Enlightenment is more traditionally considered that no matter what height or depth we are in, there is no self-centric delusion that arises.
There is little difference between being at the peak and being at the foothill unless we consider the view differently. This makes the stilling of self really unrelated to the climbing up or down. Quite often the notion of a "summit" is distracting, because it continues the false perception that there is a solid or static being that is doing the climbing. Much like those who get lost in the notion of jhana, rather than just noticing jhana and then breathing and looking.
My friends and I sometimes joke about the false vision of self-centric enlightenment as those who say "I R enlightened"... where people get a view of stillness and consider themselves "arrived" or "complete". It is so common its uncanny, and the main lesson is to detach from all illusion, no matter how pretty or ugly it appears to be.
Just breathe and keep looking!
With warmth,
Matt
cloud, spot on again, im really starting to like the new moderator,like the old ones, we have to love all moderator's, i mean its a thankless task, no moderators, no forum, right!! but thanks, really i mean it cloud.
(I do not have the time to find it now)
Is that where you were going, @DhammaDhatu?
Havent you suffered enough?
I never said enlightenment was anything special like that. My argument is that to the vantage point of an enlightened being, life does not suck. It simply is.
Of course life seems to suck to us sometimes, or most of the time, depending on the person. It's delusional though, caused by the wrong view that one is a fixed and permanent self. When one sees the self as a temporary conglomerate of aggregates, however, what permanent identity is there left to refer to that is suffering? Since there is no self, there is noone to suffer. No birth, no death, etc.. Just an ever shifting existence, with no inherent or fixed identity to be found.
When a sentient being views all things with a full understanding of reality, suffering therefore ceases to be a real phenomenon in their view.
The Buddha himself promised in the Third Noble Truth that there is an end to suffering, or dissatisfaction if you prefer. This is what his teachings are supposed to bring about according to the Fourth Noble Truth, a path that leads to the cessation of suffering.
This is according to my understanding, at least. I agree that bodhisattvas (or buddhas) would not be happy to see suffering, of course. Equanimity and compassion are qualities of these beings, however. They have the capability of being compassionate for the suffering of others. This compassion compels them to help, yet they are not controlled by that suffering, because the suffering is recognized for what it truly is (illusion) and therefore holds no power over them.
To my understanding, at least.
Moderator Note, Please Read
There are only these two things, mind and form. Mind does suffer through craving, and that craving perpetuates itself out of ignorance of the way things are (impermanent, ownerless). Not even an enlightened being would say there is no suffering, or there are no people. This is to deny conventional reality, and the Buddha taught that enlightened beings see both the conventional and the ultimate simultaneously to my understanding.
The Buddha taught that there is suffering, as this must be fully understood and directly seen to be the truth in order to overcome suffering.
One extreme is that there are people suffering.
One extreme is that there are no people, hence no suffering.
The truth is a middle path between these. There are mind and form; mind suffers due to craving born of ignorance. There are conventional people, but ultimately there are conditioned aggregates of mind and form.
This is what we should see for ourselves, or find a proper teacher to explain it. To come to the conclusion that there is no suffering is itself a form of suffering. It is delusion, and such a view leads away from compassion toward suffering minds and to nihilism where there is no need to fix anything or to think, speak and act skillfully in this world. That is not a Buddhist teaching, and is not the Four Noble Truths. The Four Noble Truths are our litmus test, they should always be consulted.
life sucking has causes, like hunger, war and poverty
By eliminating the causes of life sucking, like ending war, feeding everyone, giving to the poor etc
life ceases to suck
For instance the seeking of pleasure is suffering. This means the mind finds things to be non-pleasurable otherwise. So we will still have the subtle forms of suffering, along with more noticeable forms such as aging and death, even in a utopia. At some point we would still come to the conclusion that there is no lasting happiness to be found by seeking entertainment, enjoyment, sense pleasures.
(If you believe in devas/gods, scriptures teach that the Four Noble Truths apply even to them, because they do not accept their impermanent and ownerless reality either; they believe they are beyond suffering, and thus are still delusional. They too still come to pass away, though their lives are much longer than human life. Dukkha is pervasive as an aspect of life, only overcome through effort to fully penetrate the nature of all phenomena!)
if what you infer is true, the entire incarceration of the monks in tibet was no tragedy at all as the monks should have felt no suffering, torture, starving and pain being locked up, if you had a really bad headache, as i did this morning what would you do, take some asprin, or meditate in an attempt to lessen the pain, if you say the latter or both, you're probably right, IMO
Perhaps the Buddha didn't answer the question "will all beings reach Enlightenment?" because:
a) If it is true, then it would lead to a lack of effort since "it's gonna happen anyway"
b) If it is false, then it might lead to a lack of confidence in oneself "maybe I am one of those who won't make it, maybe I'm not good enough"
Neither case is beneficial. Since the Buddha only speaks what is true AND beneficial, perhaps he knew the answer to this question but it wasn't beneficial to say.
Maybe I am way off.
Metta,
Guy
Even if we end up with a perfect society, a utopia, there will be suffering if there are minds that do not penetrate the cause of suffering and have the means to see reality for themselves. That doesn't mean we stop trying to help people, it only means we don't forget the Four Noble Truths. That's all I was saying.
ahahahaha!
and in the very big picture of everything i think his goal to do the same for all the planets even the hells. the north buddhist teaching of the physical heaven(not nirvana) shambhala is much like i picture the earth some day; overcoming, hunger, disease,and poverty, war is obsolete, and most people practice some kind of mindfullness or meditation to alleviate suffering, sounds grandiose but i believe its the same thing Jesus prophecied for earth, someday heaven on hearth. Please metta
This is the basic premise of Buddhism, what you can read in every single books that introduce people to Buddhism.
There will always be physical pain (hunger, diseases, injuries etc...)
But suffering because of it is not necessary.
We can obviously try to improve the quality of life by reducing physical pain, which is fantastic, but we don't always control or choose our environment, and some painful things just cannot be avoided like deaths, accidents and tragedies.
But to eliminate suffering the answer doesn't lie in having an absolute control over the circumstances of our lives, the answer lie within. one must walk the path to end suffering.
you look up and you see the moon.
you may get sad after seeing the moon (it reminds you of something sad).
you look up and you see the moon.
you remain at peace.
You look inside and there is the sensation of hunger.
you may get afraid of dying, or afraid the sensation will increase.
You look inside and there is the sensation of hunger.
you remain at peace.
you drive your car and someone cut in front of you.
you may get angry.
you drive your car and someone cut in front of you.
you remain at peace.
You look inside and there is the sensation of pain that is the cancer rotting your body.
you may get afraid of dying, or afraid the sensation will increase, sad at a million things. Spending your last moments alive in pure mental agony.
You look inside and there is the sensation of pain that is the cancer rotting your body.
you remain at peace. Savoring your last moments with your loved ones.
Some things are more difficult than others, but freedom from suffering comes naturally to those who walk the path.
Isntead of spending that time suffering, the one who is at peace can spend that time loving and appreciating etc...
the buddha never said physical pain was not a form of suffering, in fact he clearly stated birth, sickness, death were the most obvious forms of suffering, suffering isn't 100% in your mind, mostly in your mind, maybe. you can't stab a monk in the hand with a fork and he doesn't notice,
the buddha never said there is no reality, simply reality as we see it is an illusion and the senses cannot be trusted, in my understanding of this you might believe you are living in new york, but actually be in tokyo or dharmasala, since you don't really know where you are, you have to balance that with functioning as if you really are where you see yourself with your senses, otherwise you'll end up playing on the freeway or something, or bumping into walls. so many buddhist hang up on theses difficult concepts, especially those that have done hallucinogenic drugs.
another example you might be living in germany running a violin shop, while in the true nature of reality your actually living in japan repairing koto dulcimers. you might think your a monk living in nepal preaching the dharma, while your actually a devout lay person living in california preaching on a violin forum. you start to ponder, where am i, who am i, am i going crazy, the answer in buddhist terms is you really don't know where you are, its not important,so don't get caught up in the importance of your city, your house, your friends as being somehow special and more important than everyone else's house, city and friends
me, sometimes i am living in heaven, nirvana, or shambhala, the rest rest of the time i'm just living here, now.......
Metta,
Guy
Birth, sickness and death are only suffering to a mind that clings. To the non-clinging mind, these are simply the way things are; it is not disturbed in the slightest by them. In fact, it does not see birth as birth. It does not see death as death. It sees the birthless/deathless reality of change, of transformation, of no static "things" to begin with but an unending shifting of phenomena from this to that, that to this. Conditioned aggregates, mind and form, an interconnected and interdependent system of cause and effect, choice and consequence.
If there is no ignorance/craving/suffering in the mind, then there is no suffering experienced by that mind. Mind is where all is experienced, it colors all experience this way or that. Seeing reality with full clarity, it experiences life with equanimity, peace. The mind is not disturbed. Sure an enlightened/awakened mind feels a fork in the hand, but recognizes it as a mere physical sensation indicating damage to the hand (which isn't taken to be "self").
Reality is not an illusion to the unenlightened mind, but rather a delusion. The mind is either of Right View when it comes to suffering and its cause, or not. The mind either sees impermanence and not-self in all things (including itself), or it craves and clings, forming attachments and experiencing suffering due to its unskillful views and actions.
>you can't stab a monk in the hand with a fork and he doesn't notice
Of course he will notice. However, just because he notices it, does not necessarily mean that he will suffer because of it.
>the buddha never said physical pain was not a form of suffering, in fact he clearly stated birth, sickness, death were the most obvious forms of suffering, suffering isn't 100% in your mind, mostly in your mind, maybe.
He did teach that it IS all in your mind. He did teach that birth, sickness, death were the most obvious forms of suffering. BUT you have to go further and examine WHY he stated that. He stated that, because, human beings have a natural tendency to want to avoid unpleasantness. His solution was to stop wanting to avoid unpleasantness, because that is simply not possible. With the result being "no suffering while experiencing unpleasantness."
So the origin of the suffering is not from "getting a fork stuck in your hand" but rather "not wanting to have a fork stuck in your hand", to begin with is the origin, which comes from your mind. If you don't have a desire to NOT have your hand stuck with a fork, then getting stuck with a fork is not a problem.
just a joke here, i read my last post to my mom right now, and she thought it sounded weird and a little crazy, as she feels when im manic like now its a small form of going insane.
then for point of contrast i read her your post, cloud, and asked her her opinion, who sound more crazy, me or cloud, her response???
both of you sound a little crazy!!!!!!!!! but mom's are like that, its really good news for me cause i know of anyone on this forum, cloud's not crazy!
Peace.
suffering was the number one problem for people in the time of the buddha, not so today, we have the buddhas teaching, food medicine, cars, telephones,etc to alleviate our suffering; we're not suffering enough to want to change. people in the buddhas time would do anything to escape the pain and sufering, not so much true today. today's buddha would be concerned with starvation, homelessnes, poverty, and yes even the economy, and of all things i think INJUSTICE, of war, rich vs poor, lack of good education, especially drug and alcohol abuse etc
when we tell a newcomer, buddhism is all about suffering and the path to get rid of it, we are deluded, people who aren't suffering a lot are put off, why do I need buddhism they say. buddhism is about practicing love and compassion for all beings and animals, much more important than getting rid of suffering, don't be wimps who flinch at the thought of suffering, if putting yourself into situations that require unpleasantness enables you to be a better person, go for, its not all in your mind, suffering, your mind is kind of trapped in your body, so thats real too, in a sense, until your next life!!
remember the four noble truths are a formula, suffering can be replaced by any bad thing and its still true;
INJUSTICE EXISTS
INJUSTICE HAS CAUSES
BY ELIMINATING THE CAUSES OF IN JUSTICE
INJUSTICE CEASES TO EXIST
or replace injustice with ignorance, poverty, drug addiction, starvation, poverty etc etc. it really is the answer to most of lifes problems thats why the're called the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS
the dreaming is when you decide you want to be enlightened, you dream about what it will be like, i know for me, some day or some lifetime, enlightenment will be helping people, solving problems, learning compassion, eliminating my anger, curing my mental illness, stuff like that, its still a form of dreaming for me too right now, but enlightened people are not spacy, weird, hard to understand, the're very down to earth and practical, those aren't the qualities of a dreamer are they?
>suffering was the number one problem for people in the time of the buddha, not so today, we have the buddhas teaching, food medicine, cars, telephones,etc to alleviate our suffering
I disagree that these things alleviate suffering, aside from Buddhas teaching. I do think that they are a very good distraction from suffering, but simply because you are being distracted from it, which allows you to temporarily not feel it, does not mean it's gone. It's still there, it's just being avoided with TV, cell phones, nice cars, etc.
>when we tell a newcomer, buddhism is all about suffering and the path to get rid of it, we are deluded, people who aren't suffering a lot are put off, why do I need buddhism they say.
If they say that, then they don't need it. The Buddha taught that the experience of suffering is what gives rise to faith in the Dharma. If a person is distracting themselves so they don't feel any suffering, then no, they don't need Buddhism. However, I would bet $100 that when their mother dies, or when it comes time for them to die, they will have great suffering, which they think is normal, when it does not have to be that way. But they will soon learn that their techniques will stop working one day and then they will be up shits creek without a paddle. Allowing yourself to go up shits creek without a paddle, is itself, suffering IMO.
>if putting yourself into situations that require unpleasantness enables you to be a better person, go for, its not all in your mind, suffering,
Simply being born puts you into a situation where unpleasantness is inevitable! You can't avoid getting sick old or dying. It's not about being a wimp who flinch at the thought of suffering. It's about learning to deal with the inevitable unpleasantness that is part of being a human being, without that unpleasantness causing suffering. It has nothing to do with "being afraid" of suffering. It a process to stop avoiding the truth of reality and accept the fact that unpleasantness is inevitable and being ok with that fact. If you are really ok with that fact and come to fully accept that fact, then suffering arising from unpleasantness does not occur. People think they are not suffering because they have a nice TV and a nice car and a nice house. People are quite ignorant. But that is not Buddhism's fault. Anyway, that is what I think.